OP: TheShepard256
It's not the quality of their writing, it's the content. Their culture is quite xenophobic and isolationist by CoC2 standards, and incredibly inflexible; no matter how much you do for and/or try to integrate with the kitsune den, you'll always be looked down upon as an outsider (and becoming a kitsune through soulbinding only partially mitigates that), which is only made worse if you get emotionally involved with Kiyoko and/or your children with her before finding the den. There's also the fact that they're almost entirely disconnected from the rest of the game's world, which may produce a feeling that they don't belong in the game as a whole.
I think it's interesting to note that of the least criticised (at least, from what I can remember) kitsune, Kohaku is of a profession that's looked down upon by kitsune society (i.e. merchant) and Tetsuya, Kurako and Hatsumomo aren't written by The Observer (who wrote most of the kitsune; the only other non-Tobs kitsune I know of, Takahiro, is from an author known for making controversial characters anyways). I say "least criticised" instead of "most popular" because Kiyoko is probably the most popular kitsune, but not everyone has a positive opinion of her (my opinion of her has definitely decreased over time).
I believe we addressed this already but we can refresh a bit. The boreal elves could fit this same description perfectly but don't receive the same amount of hate. As stated previously I could argue that the elves are even more disconnected from the game than the kitsune are considering how little interaction with them as a whole the player actually gets. In an attempt to keep this post short I'll refer people to my earlier posts when I go more in depth into my thinking with this.
OP: Necros
My main 3 gripes are are:
Nearly no player agency.
And the whole den area feels like DLC content. It's so disconnected from main plot. Even taking isolationism and xenophobia into account, there is a limit how isolationist you can be when demons are corrupting area around you.
And finally it's not really champions story, it's Kinus. It would be fine if it was some side game, but as it is now it kinda feels off.
Feels like I'm repeating myself here but I've already covered my thoughts on the lack of player agency and we literally just addressed their isolationism. Something the elves are guilty of doing as well but recieve no hate for. I do sorta agree about the aspect of how nobody is really taking the demon threat seriously but I also understand that leaders sometimes make poor decisions. To me its totally feasible that a culture of people who are use to depending on themselves and not trusting outsiders would take a defensive "We'll just hide in our magic tree" approach to the problem. Just because its not a good choice doesn't mean it isn't potentially a realistic one. The important thing is to consider their perspective with everything.
This last part is something I both agree and disagree with. During the scenes where the player is seeing things from Kinu's perspective and playing as her I agree with it being her story and feeling like DLC. The rest of the time though that's hardly the case, if it really was all about Kinu thenthe Kitsune as a whole would treat the Champion more favorably based solely on the fact that you're Kinu's father. That's my opinion at least. This subject mainly comes down to how people feel about not being the Champion for awhile I think. Some people like it and some people don't.
OP: TheIrishOtaku
Its really not that deep, people don't like being discriminated against for obvious reasons, especially by people that you're trying to help and who really come across as ungrateful dicks no matter how much you do for them. I don't see what digging would need to be done on this score, the reason they hate it is obvious. You can dress it up all you want but its really that simple. I've seen nobody on here deny that xenophobia is a real thing that people experience in the world so I don't know where that's coming from either, I don't think anyone on here is unaware of that. I get making people confront uncomfortable truths but is a hentai game really the best place to do that? People play games for escapism and porn games specifically to get off, not to be treated like a filthy gaijin by weeb foxes.
This is just pointing out the xenophobia aspect again but the OP makes good points that I largely agree with. People don't like the kitsune content because they don't like being treated badly and like an outsider. People like being in control over their fetishes and tend to get grumpy when they feel like they're being trampled on, the kitsune den can be a rude awakening for many. I agree with the escapism part too, that's mainly what people are seeking from this game. Its a bold choice to go against the grain and write characters that you know some people may have issues with but that's also what makes them so interesting in my opinion. The bottom line remains the same though; Players don't like being treated as an outsider. This is pretty much what I've been saying the whole time. Also I find it hilarious that someone with "otaku" in their username is complaining about weeb stuff.
OP: SomeNobody
Everyone that opposes the Kitsune have to be the most over the top villains to make 'em look better in comparison.
Be it the non-weeb foxes who are complete fucking psychopaths or Evergreen who is clearly and unsubtly eeeeeeeee~vil from the second you can browse around her home and offspring.
This, this is the clearest and most straightforward explanation of what is wrong with the Kitsune and has been from the very start.
Years ago mentioned this point; its almost like the Kitsune and their treehouse want to be their own complete story totally separate from the actual game as a whole, with the absolutely ridiculous contrivances (ripped off directly from Fire Emblem, the same place her name comes from) involved to age-up Kinu and make her the protagonist.
That in-turn leads to the lack of player agency, the writing of those scenes seems to almost actively take umbrage at the fact your player character is 'intruding' onto these events with your much more important overarching plot.
You (figurative not literal) didn't think Evergreen bargaining for a child in return for some simple information wasn't evil? To me personally it was obvious that she wasn't really that great of a person within moments of meeting here. Then again personal opinions about particular NPC's are general down to each individual so someone's opinion on whether or not a particular faction or group is evil comes down to their perspective. If the main reason you see the kitsune as evil is due to the whole lifeforce feeding thing then I believe I talked about that already in an earlier post as well.
Believe this is in reference to the den feeling like DLC content and I addressed this already.
Player agency, something we addressed already. Again.
OP: Rampent Pervect
For me, it's a couple of things. First, as others have pointed out the kitsune are xenophobic and isolationist which also causes them to come across as taking an attitude of superiority to others. Add in the fact that they feed on the lifeforce of other races. Yes, they need to in order to survive, but when coupled with their attitude of superiority makes them seem downright sinister, like they believe themselves to be above everyone else in the food chain.
The second, I suppose, has to do with Tobs' writing style. In my opinion, when interacting with the kitsune the narrative often tells me how the champ feels about people or events rather than letting me decide how they feel. I find it jarring and the feeling of the loss of agency rubs me the wrong way. And since most of Tobs' writing involves the kitsune it reduces my interest in them significantly.
Xenophobic was addressed along with isolationism. So was their supposed superiority complex. As was the fact that they need to feed on other races. Player agency was also addressed. This is just a repeat of everything I've responded to already.
OP: Kingu2
one of the things that kind of irks me about the Kitsune is that they all say that the natives are all hostile and prejudice towards them but we never actually see that in game outside of KInuquest, and in every interaction we see has shown evidence to the contrary. It's almost like they're trying to gaslight us into thinking they're some poor, misunderstood vampire coven whose stealing of people lifeforce(and property in some cases) is totally justified because the whole world is just being unfair to them. When in reality, when they attack people unprovoked, rape them, steal their shit and are just generally assholes, people respond to them accordingly. and when they act like decent and respectable people they get treated as such. I have yet to see any instance of any kitsune recieving treatment from native marchers that wasn't fully deserved.
Ah finally something worth talking about! I also find this to be an interesting contrast and have wondered about it many times. I think the inclusion of KinuQuest was meant to shine some light on how kitsune are treated by a majority of outsiders. The scenes we see that seem to argue the contrary could be attributed to being the exception and not the rule. Consider that the boreal elves were also motivated into seeking out contact with other races again due to the Champs involvement. Wouldn't it be fair to say that some of the locals may be seeing the kitsune in a better light, especially considering the Champ is basically married to their local nobility. Again though the fact that the kitsune assault people for their lifeforce has already been addressed and I'll once again bring up the fact that Minos are out there casually raping people as well for no other reason than the joy of it. Not trying to say the one excuses the other but to me it feels like people are singling kitsune out when other races are just as guilty.
So besides a few very specific examples I believe the vast majority of things you guys said I wasn't addressing actually very much got addressed. Multiple times.
