Why do a lot of people dislike the kitsune so much?

[SylcarenBloodmoon]

I do love them Dickgirls... But as I said elsewhere just hate that their opinions don't shift too much. I do think that out of all the characters, Nakano bothers me the most... (Since you can just turn off Takahiro's more annoying stuff and never step in his tile). Especially if he is engaged to your Daughter. I can see the logic of letting the engagement happen without your input overall that the various characters give, Mostly, of course from Hime Kinu and Kiyoko

Honestly, the Den as a whole is just meh to me after going through all the stuff once... I like some of the characters, Kohaku, Rindo, Tetsuya, and of course, the Family but, the others are meh overall I guess.

I will give credit though that out of the various Seven gods we can meet so far that Keros is my favorite but, mostly cause I just vibe with them personality-wise.

 

[Loveless]

Another Dickgirl for the collection

 

[MagicGal]

I do love them Dickgirls... But as I said elsewhere just hate that their opinions don't shift too much. I do think that out of all the characters, Nakano bothers me the most... (Since you can just turn off Takahiro's more annoying stuff and never step in his tile). Especially if he is engaged to your Daughter. I can see the logic of letting the engagement happen without your input overall that the various characters give, Mostly, of course from Hime Kinu and Kiyoko

I feel that but honestly I just vibe with Kohaku, Rindo, and Hotaru but the only preg I do endorse is Kohaku. Not too keen on the floof ppl

 

[SylcarenBloodmoon]

I feel that but honestly I just vibe with Kohaku, Rindo, and Hotaru but the only preg I do endorse is Kohaku. Not too keen on the floof ppl

this is slightly off-topic... but Having just recently returned to CoC2... I didn't know there was a Kohaku preg scene... how is it done?

and I did forget about Hotaru who is pretty great as well, I just wish you could user her for the Wayfort upgrades as an aside, since you do need a Tailor, she's a seamstress... Why can't we use her?

 

[MagicGal]

Yeah thought it was weird that Hotaru isn't ever used for Tailor missions but I'd chalk it up to either the Devs forgetting about her role.

Not really sure how to trigger Kohaku preg sex scene, maybe sleep with her a few times and it might trigger on the next day.

 

[WolframL]

Yeah thought it was weird that Hotaru isn't ever used for Tailor missions but I'd chalk it up to either the Devs forgetting about her role.

Hotaru was added to the game half a year after Wayfort Upgrades was finalized, so she literally didn't exist when they were doing that quest. Likewise Galla in KM. They probably could be added in but it's not likely to be a priority.

Not really sure how to trigger Kohaku preg sex scene, maybe sleep with her a few times and it might trigger on the next day.

Complete any of Nakano's quests, have a real penis, not be sterile. The one-time scene will happen automatically following the next time you have sex with her. If you skip through the text too quickly you can easily lock yourself out of it because the option that rejects her is the same one where the 'Next' option usually lives.

 

[wery12345]

Complete any of Nakano's quests, have a real penis, not be sterile. The one-time scene will happen automatically following the next time you have sex with her. If you skip through the text too quickly you can easily lock yourself out of it because the option that rejects her is the same one where the 'Next' option usually lives.

TLDR dont fail the reading comprehension test.

 

[sarvu2543]

It's not the quality of their writing, it's the content. Their culture is quite xenophobic and isolationist by CoC2 standards, and incredibly inflexible; no matter how much you do for and/or try to integrate with the kitsune den, you'll always be looked down upon as an outsider (and becoming a kitsune through soulbinding only partially mitigates that), which is only made worse if you get emotionally involved with Kiyoko and/or your children with her before finding the den. There's also the fact that they're almost entirely disconnected from the rest of the game's world, which may produce a feeling that they don't belong in the game as a whole.

I think it's interesting to note that of the least criticised (at least, from what I can remember) kitsune, Kohaku is of a profession that's looked down upon by kitsune society (i.e. merchant) and Tetsuya, Kurako and Hatsumomo aren't written by The Observer (who wrote most of the kitsune; the only other non-Tobs kitsune I know of, Takahiro, is from an author known for making controversial characters anyways). I say "least criticised" instead of "most popular" because Kiyoko is probably the most popular kitsune, but not everyone has a positive opinion of her (my opinion of her has definitely decreased over time).

It really comes from three problems imo.

They Hate Kiyoko
1-no offense, but a lot of the user base on here is surprisingly soft. I saw one person call kiyoko "abusive" as a mother and I was just thinking to myself when reading this comment. "Wow, if you think that's abusive you wouldn't of survived in any semi-traditional conservative home". I grew up in that life style. My family was rough, but it made me into a better person, I genuinely love them. Do I have grudges? yeh, but i think that's normal. Ive met many parents and I can say not a single one has earned what I call the A Hallmark ideal parent score. Id say most parents in general would only get a C. Parenting is hard lol, i feel a lot of COC fans dont get that.

Wish attention was elsewhere/overfocus
2- They honestly get the majority of content updates, if we are being honest, the story of the corruption of champions is NOTHING overly complex and out worldish, and could of easily been finished years ago. Hell it probably already is finished and just not coded in yet. The reason why the main story isn't complete yet is largely because of all the side content, and a lot of the side content has been the Kitsune. And the result is, the orcs feel less cool, the cats feel less cool, everyone feels less cool and fleshed out. Cause near 100 percent of the love has gone to the kitsune to the point they could literally just be their own game at this point.

The Xenophobia
3-I won't really talk about this point, for everyone else already did a good job.

So these three factors fused together can cause a lot of back lash to them lol. All though I feel I myself played a role in adding fuel to the flame when I mentioned how I want Cait more fleshed out and talked about how much time is over given to kitsunes.

irony is, the kitsune is my favorite part of the story.

 

[Kingu2]

one of the things that kind of irks me about the Kitsune is that they all say that the natives are all hostile and prejudice towards them but we never actually see that in game outside of KInuquest, and in every interaction we see has shown evidence to the contrary. It's almost like they're trying to gaslight us into thinking they're some poor, misunderstood vampire coven whose stealing of people lifeforce(and property in some cases) is totally justified because the whole world is just being unfair to them. When in reality, when they attack people unprovoked, rape them, steal their shit and are just generally assholes, people respond to them accordingly. and when they act like decent and respectable people they get treated as such. I have yet to see any instance of any kitsune recieving treatment from native marchers that wasn't fully deserved.

 

[Bleh223]

They Hate Kiyoko
1-no offense, but a lot of the user base on here is surprisingly soft. I saw one person call kiyoko "abusive" as a mother and I was just thinking to myself when reading this comment. "Wow, if you think that's abusive you wouldn't of survived in any semi-traditional conservative home". I grew up in that life style. My family was rough, but it made me into a better person, I genuinely love them. Do I have grudges? yeh, but i think that's normal. Ive met many parents and I can say not a single one has earned what I call the A Hallmark ideal parent score. Id say most parents in general would only get a C. Parenting is hard lol, i feel a lot of COC fans dont get that.

I remember Kiyoko deliberately sabotaging Kinu in some way and then blaming her for it because she was jealous. I have pretty strict parents too, but I can't even imagine them doing that to me.

 

[Medge]

one of the things that kind of irks me about the Kitsune is that they all say that the natives are all hostile and prejudice towards them but we never actually see that in game outside of KInuquest, and in every interaction we see has shown evidence to the contrary. It's almost like they're trying to gaslight us into thinking they're some poor, misunderstood vampire coven whose stealing of people lifeforce(and property in some cases) is totally justified because the whole world is just being unfair to them. When in reality, when they attack people unprovoked, rape them, steal their shit and are just generally assholes, people respond to them accordingly. and when they act like decent and respectable people they get treated as such. I have yet to see any instance of any kitsune recieving treatment from native marchers that wasn't fully deserved.

You know, I hadn't really thought about this at all. But you're right. Almost all the interactions shown in game are them being assholes and trying to justify it later. But I can't recall any memorable scenes of them actually being persecuted at all. Fair point. Quite a good one, since if the text of the narrative does not support the point, then it could be inferred with some weight that they're full of it.

I bounce off of the content hard because it strikes me very much as an aesthetic of a culture rather than the substance of it. Like the idea of Japan ported wholesale instead of adapted in a novel enough way to be interesting. No shade intended towards ToBs. The same an be levelled against every culture in the game. The kitsune just summon that idea in a very overt/deliberate way where others manage to obscure the roots of their inspiration. As a result, all of the content involved with them is just really uninteresting to me personally. I have to admit to glazing over when I see updates to the Kitsune den, since I know I'll never spend time with it.

Then again, I like trash and villainy like Lady Evergreen and bad ideas the PC would regret later - so my bar is low enough that most of you would trip over it anyway.

 

[Ace Hangman]

I love the Kitsune Den. I can see the issues others bring up, but I tend to just be so appreciative and impressed by the dedication and determination it takes to make such an undertaking like the Kitsune Den (including all the characters therein, as well as their interactions with each other, and the kitsune outside the den) and I am amazed. The fact that I can have conversations with almost any denizen there and get their thoughts and opinions on other denizens (and often with multiple different ones for the same subject) and dialogue that updates dynamically based on events and occurrences was so fun and exciting to explore. It may have low impact on the ultimate story, but I know that when the game was far less developed and the storyline ended pretty much at Winter City, the fact that I could play with the kitsune kept me interested and in touch with the game development until more areas and storylines developed.
(And the fantastic options and events with Kiyoko and Kinu before I released her from the Orb kept me busy. I wanted all 32 kits before just to see the look on Keros' face. Worth it).

I absolutely would beat Nakano silly for the disrespect that I perceive he ultimately has in character and some things, like not being asked about Kinu's engagement beforehand would upset me in reality too, but from a story standpoint, I also understand that some things need to happen and the fact that there was even a conversation, both with Kiyoka and Kinu on the subject where they laid out their reasons (whether I would actually agree or not) show a lot of thought.

I think the gameworld would be a far less fun or interesting place without the kitsune in it and I look forward to seeing them spread out more and more as the game develops and more people contribute with their own unique ideas.

I am hoping Takahiro makes a (disguised?) appearance in the Khor-minos colosseum,
"Tacky-Hero! The Drunk Fox of Belhar" (even if he is disguised as a human. Or 'The Drunk Bunny of Belhar!" and he looks like a Taeleer, surprisingly like Quin), and he carries a spear in one hand and his jug in the other and every two rounds he takes a free action to swig it and gets a random Liquor Boost (replacing the old one), so he sometimes has maxed Str, Agi, Toughness, or whatever at any given time.
'The masked fighter pokes his jug under his veil and takes a drink, letting out a belch of [spiced wine/rye beer/honey mead/etc.]'

 

[Bleh223]

I dislike the kitsune because of one of their bad endings (no matter how many people say it isn't canon), the one where you can only watch as your body is forcibly transformed and something else is controlling it. I may shit on the wannabe edgelord Nakano, but at least he kills us, which is honestly a lot better than that ending. They're a bunch of dicks no matter what you do. The ones you encounter outside their base will try to rape you if you don't wanna fuck them, making them no better than the imps, demons, and the other rapists you encounter. The most egregious of all, our character's personality becomes a pathetic doormat around them.

 

[Ace Hangman]

I dislike the kitsune because of one of their bad endings (no matter how many people say it isn't canon), the one where you can only watch as your body is forcibly transformed and something else is controlling it. I may shit on the wannabe edgelord Nakano, but at least he kills us, which is honestly a lot better than that ending. They're a bunch of dicks no matter what you do. The ones you encounter outside their base will try to rape you if you don't wanna fuck them, making them no better than the imps, demons, and the other rapists you encounter. The most egregious of all, our character's personality becomes a pathetic doormat around them.

Well this is the thread for disliking the Kitsune, so it's the place to mention it and I can understand that feeling. But disliking all the kitsune stuff because of one bad ending (and bad endings are really the place where authors are supposed to get brutal), is like saying you don't like any of the Fallout games because there's a chance your dog companion can die.
As for the 'rape' stuff. I think it's pretty canon and acknowledged that in this world and setting, victory at arms over someone gives you the right of the conqueror and it's kind of expected. You can usually flee most encounters (not the dungeon ones, obviously. And I did surprisingly get a special scene against those corrupted lupines when I failed to get away, which was a nice change but a baaad, baaad situation). I think there's even canonically races that get offended or upset if you don't take your liberty on them without good reason.

 

[Bleh223]

Well this is the thread for disliking the Kitsune, so it's the place to mention it and I can understand that feeling. But disliking all the kitsune stuff because of one bad ending (and bad endings are really the place where authors are supposed to get brutal), is like saying you don't like any of the Fallout games because there's a chance your dog companion can die.

I haven't played Fallout, but if my dog companion did die I'd reload a save and probably end whoever did it. "Get Out" might be someone's fantasy, but not everyone's. Denying that they are capable of this while the only thing preventing it being "canon" is us beating them is silly.

As for the 'rape' stuff. I think it's pretty canon and acknowledged that in this world and setting, victory at arms over someone gives you the right of the conqueror and it's kind of expected. You can usually flee most encounters (not the dungeon ones, obviously. And I did surprisingly get a special scene against those corrupted lupines when I failed to get away, which was a nice change but a baaad, baaad situation). I think there's even canonically races that get offended or upset if you don't take your liberty on them without good reason.

Alright, then what exactly is the "corruption" in this game supposed to be? As far as I'm concerned, if rape is that commonplace and accepted there would be no point in stopping Kasyrra. What she gonna do? Turn everyone into demons where they continue raping each other anyway? Take over the world and make the 90% that accept rape, 100%? Same thing as usual, except this time everyone grows a moustache they can twirl?

 

[Animefan666]

Alright, then what exactly is the "corruption" in this game supposed to be? As far as I'm concerned, if rape is that commonplace and accepted there would be no point in stopping Kasyrra. What she gonna do? Turn everyone into demons where they continue raping each other anyway? Take over the world and make the 90% that accept rape, 100%? Same thing as usual, except this time everyone grows a moustache they can twirl?

Probably the part where it separates souls from bodies, removing any and all morality left. Everything that makes a civilization function stripped down and tossed into a fire, replaced with pure instinct and the inability to care about anything/anyone other than your own interests.

 

[Bleh223]

Probably the part where it separates souls from bodies, removing any and all morality left. Everything that makes a civilization function stripped down and tossed into a fire, replaced with pure instinct and the inability to care about anything/anyone other than your own interests.

So what exactly is the difference now? Even without souls, they're still pretty much the same anyway. They're just more moustache twirly now.

 

[Animefan666]

So what exactly is the difference now? Even without souls, they're still pretty much the same anyway. They're just more moustache twirly now.

The difference is it amplifies the worst parts of a person. Alissa is a prime example of that.

 

[Bleh223]

The difference is it amplifies the worst parts of a person. Alissa is a prime example of that.

So from irredeemable to even more irredeemable. In her case, her evil became more obvious than amplified.

 

[Animefan666]

So from irredeemable to even more irredeemable. In her case, her evil became more obvious than amplified.

The potential for redemption becomes near impossible. At least before, it was feasible.

 

[Emerald]

Y'all are really gonna derail just to bring up the corruption topic that was answered already.

 

[CroqueMonsieur]

Alright, then what exactly is the "corruption" in this game supposed to be? As far as I'm concerned, if rape is that commonplace and accepted there would be no point in stopping Kasyrra. What she gonna do?

I think it's a matter of perspective; the champion's journey and thrill-seeking is naturally going to lead to them encountering the worst the Frost Marches has to offer, which can easily lead to the belief that the rest of Savarra is like that.

But then the descriptions and events in Hawkthorne, Khor'Minos, and Winter city, and the existence of several 'civillian' characters like Serena and her students, Livrea - a good number of NPCs in KM actually - the vendors in Hawkthorne, little Delanel from Ryn's date events, and several others, make it clear that everyday people do exist in Savarra - even if they don't get the spotlight often.

And those are the people the champion is trying to protect. (Well, most champions, it ultimately comes down to the player's interpretation of the champion, of course.)

That's my answer to the "why we fight" question, whether you agree or not is completely up to you.

Y'all are really gonna derail just to bring up the corruption topic that was answered already.

l apologize for the further derail, i was in the middle of writing this up when you posted that.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on, @Emerald is right, the thread's been derailed for long enough.

 

[Bleh223]

l apologize for the further derail, i was in the middle of writing this up when you posted that.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on, @Emerald is right, the thread's been derailed for long enough.

Yup, even though I'm not exactly satisfied with the current state of corruption, let's get back to topic. The kitsune suck (and not in the fun way).

 

[Tide Hunter]

The kitsune suck (and not in the fun way).

The kitsune also suck in the fun way

 

[SylcarenBloodmoon]

Snipped

I do agree that the world would be less impactful without them and that there is a lot to like about the Kitsune. I just have my mild qualms and dislike for the Xenophobia side of things and how no matter how deep you try to entwine with them that some are still a bit off-putting. The fact you also get told at times that you don't have much input (The Engagement and all being the big one) is also a bit off, but overall a lot of the Den is pretty great.

I suppose that saying I dislike them is too intense? I do enjoy a lot of them but not other things within their content.

 

[ForeverLurker]

I would like to interact with more of me and kiyokos fox children than just Kinu. I just find it weird that their own God is pretty chill with you but they aren't some that I noticed.

 

[Ace Hangman]

I would like to interact with more of me and kiyokos fox children than just Kinu. I just find it weird that their own God is pretty chill with you but they aren't some that I noticed.

I think they're pretty chill overall, since almost no outsider is ever allowed in the den, but I think I know what you're implying. Even then, I think they're mostly pretty chill with you.

Some interactions I kind of thought about was, after Raphael's attack on the compound, asking Zo to move in (as added security). I think the mute monk probably would fit in well. Not sure how her having my pup would go over. I think some of the other named children could at least mesh or work well with her personality (the farming one, Tatsumi?).

I also thought a scene where you took your children on a guarded nature walk around the immediate vicinity and visited the dryads nearby, or specifically Grainne (if on good terms, though I don't see how you couldn't be). They would be considered nature spirits or kami, and deserving of respect from the foxes. Maybe Ashigiri or Aya might have some meaingful interactions, either from a Ash's spiritual or mystical bent or Aya's more primal undercurrent.

Obviously I can't speak to how the overall situation would work (and obviously I am not asking anyone to write all that, it was only a passing thought I had).

 

[Necros]

Some interactions I kind of thought about was, after Raphael's attack on the compound, asking Zo to move in (as added security). I think the mute monk probably would fit in well.

Arent Kitsune kinda racist against foxes(Vulpines?). Kiyoko gave unusual ammount of reaction to that one in Khor'minos

 

[Dude_with_bad_english]

asking Zo to move in

In the name of all divine powers - NO! Leave sweet sensei far away as possible from the corrosive influence of the multitailed xenophobes.

 

[Ace Hangman]

Arent Kitsune kinda racist against foxes(Vulpines?). Kiyoko gave unusual ammount of reaction to that one in Khor'minos

Are you referring to Nash? The corrupt merchant in the Outskirts? Assuming you are, I never saw Kiyoko's comment, I must not have had her in party the times I first met. I assume anything she said would likely be colored by the fact that he's clearly corrupt and all his wares are equally so. She has a good sense for such things. Other than the vulperine attackers on your family who are absolutely hated but for a reason, I don't recall anything about foxfolk (vulperine) disliking or being disliked by kitsune (I don't remember every conversation, though). It's not mentioned in either races Codex entry.

Either way though, both Nash and Zo are lupines, not foxes. They do have more slender and foxen looks than say Garth or Garret, but they also have vastly different professions and lifestyles. (And I love the way Zo looks, sans robe).