Why do a lot of people dislike the kitsune so much?

[Ace Hangman]

In the name of all divine powers - NO! Leave sweet sensei far away as possible from the corrosive influence of the multitailed xenophobes.

But, maybe she could teach and help Aya with her primal feelings. Train her to become a force for calm, meditative structure and discipline instead of slowly transforming into what will likely become some foxen equivalent of a werewolf, prowling the forests with her bestial maw, fangs, and claws revealed, draining the lifeforce from hapless travelers through bloody attacks. Ultimately requiring you to hunt her down and... do the right thing. Yes... ultimately Raphael's attack was responsible for unleashing her fears... but it's you who'll have to end it.

I'm sure that's... top of the list for what's being written for your family in the future... Unless someone can come up with a way to stop it in time. Maybe Mai can teach her to smoke some Winterstem...

 

[Necros]

Are you referring to Nash? The corrupt merchant in the Outskirts? Assuming you are, I never saw Kiyoko's comment, I must not have had her in party the times I first met. I assume anything she said would likely be colored by the fact that he's clearly corrupt and all his wares are equally so. She has a good sense for such things. Other than the vulperine attackers on your family who are absolutely hated but for a reason, I don't recall anything about foxfolk (vulperine) disliking or being disliked by kitsune (I don't remember every conversation, though). It's not mentioned in either races Codex entry.

Either way though, both Nash and Zo are lupines, not foxes. They do have more slender and foxen looks than say Garth or Garret, but they also have vastly different professions and lifestyles. (And I love the way Zo looks, sans robe).

I think it was magic vendor lady and Kiyokos comment was something along the lines "Vulperine, how quaint", and it being Kiyoko it might as well have been a rant

 

[SomeNobody]

I'm sure that's... top of the list for what's being written for your family in the future... Unless someone can come up with a way to stop it in time. Maybe Mai can teach her to smoke some Winterstem...

Presumably the true way to solve the Kitsune problem is to get their singular oversoul out of the mitts of the fake god ruling over them and find a way to shatter it into individual souls they actually carry inside their bodies like everyone else, turning them into a regular species instead of the edgy weeb-bait vampire-werewolves they currently are.

"Keros" would never do it because it would mean giving up control over others, and from acts he's thrown out against the likes of Komari or the ridiculously contrived timeskip of the player's family in the orb he seems to enjoy enacting such power much more (and far more pettily) than any of his peers in the Divine Seven.

 

[Ace Hangman]

Presumably the true way to solve the Kitsune problem is to get their singular oversoul out of the mitts of the fake god ruling over them and find a way to shatter it into individual souls they actually carry inside their bodies like everyone else, turning them into a regular species instead of the edgy weeb-bait vampire-werewolves they currently are.

"Keros" would never do it because it would mean giving up control over others, and from acts he's thrown out against the likes of Komari or the ridiculously contrived timeskip of the player's family in the orb he seems to enjoy enacting such power much more (and far more pettily) than any of his peers in the Divine Seven.

[conspiracy]
Every time I impregnated Kiyoko, I secretly shared the tiniest, infinitesimal speck of my own soul to the child in her womb. It's almost unnoticeable to me, and my soul will slowly replenish itself over time. The tiny little, insignificant grain of soul sand in the little kitsune will also be largely unnoticeable, but like a grain of sand in an oyster, if they do kind and good things to nurture a soul, like a growing pearl inside them, they will form their own soul. With a suitably compassionate and Pure life, it might even grow enough for them to share a tiny soul piece with their own children.
Of course, until that time, it's such a nearly imperceptible thing that they'll still be considered soulless or unaffected by Corruption as normal, except for those rare few.
I almost slipped up and mentioned this to Keros during his speech about how they are fine and real people, but totally soulless, even my beloved wife (still true) and child. Not sure what he'd think. He might think it was an amazing concept. I hope so...he's my favorite of the Seven.
[/conspiracy]

 

[Dude_with_bad_english]

Honestly, the idea of putting a non-kitsune npc into kitsune society, and more score for that npc get accepted by them, sounds like a perfect backhand for Chump and Player. Sounds like some great idea that might actually happen!

 

[Gothamson]

Honestly, the idea of putting a non-kitsune npc into kitsune society, and more score for that npc get accepted by them, sounds like a perfect backhand for Chump and Player. Sounds like some great idea that might actually happen!

I get that CoC2 isn't a power fantasy but how does making npc seemingly only to anger the player at the expense of kitsune lore sound like a good idea?

 

[Dude_with_bad_english]

I get that CoC2 isn't a power fantasy but how does making npc seemingly only to anger the player at the expense of kitsune lore sound like a good idea?

 

[Bleh223]

I get that CoC2 isn't a power fantasy but how does making npc seemingly only to anger the player at the expense of kitsune lore sound like a good idea?

It sucks that there is no room for the MC to question them on their behavior or the shitty things they've done. It also sucks that the people hunting the lifeforce energy sucking vampires down are cartoonishly evil by comparison as well.

 

[Gothamson]

View attachment 32056

You can never tell on the internet. I've read some genuinely mindnumbing garbage on these forums no less.

 

[igerasim]

I agree. The kitsune kind has some unpleasant characters, but most of them are easy and pleasant to integrate with. IMHO they have much better character balance than, say, marefolk, which are universally likable and hospitable.

 

[Gothamson]

I agree. The kitsune kind has some unpleasant characters, but most of them are easy and pleasant to integrate with. IMHO they have much better character balance than, say, marefolk, which are universally likable and hospitable.

Well in fairness on that one; they kicked out the less friendly ones in their village.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

I agree. The kitsune kind has some unpleasant characters, but most of them are easy and pleasant to integrate with. IMHO they have much better character balance than, say, marefolk, which are universally likable and hospitable.

This is the point of the kitsune. Rather than take the easy road and write content where everyone loves the champion solely for existing Tobs actually wanted to create characters with some depth that had stories of their own to tell. Another user on page one of this thread posted some old examples of Tobs responding to some of the backlash and, to me personally, it speaks clearly as to what Tobs is hoping to achieve with their writing. Lets use Nakano as an example.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of Nakano but his character feels believable and realistic, he's a young warrior in a position of honor that many don't think he'll live up to. He's desperate to prove himself and that comes across in his interactions; How would you feel if some random adventurer suddenly kicked down the door to your house and kicked your ass? Not only that but mere days after that encounter the same random adventurer who kicked your ass is suddenly named champion by your god and placed in a position of honor that outranks you by a significant degree. Bringing back Kiyoko was definitely an admirable accomplishment but from an outsiders perspective it honestly looks like the Champion only got to that position because Kiyoko likes their dick, and frankly that's not entirely inaccurate.

On the flip side of things; In a vast majority of the game our Champions are treated favorably by nearly everyone we encounter. That same vast majority is also very happy to jump into bed with our Champion, usually with very little prompting on our part. While that's nice in a setting where all we want to do is rub one out its not actually very realistic. Even in a world setting where there is an entire priesthood of sacred harlots you still have to account for thoughts and feelings of individual people. The game acknowledges this multiple times as Cait makes it clear to several potential partners that she's not looking for any sort of serious emotional relationship with the people she sleeps with.

In my own opinion the reason why people don't like the kitsune content is because its a sudden shift from what they're use to seeing in the rest of the game. Instead of being treated like the greatest thing to ever walk the Earth just for showing up the residents in the kitsune den are actually waiting for the champion to demonstrate they're more than just a good bed warmer. Will we ever actually be given that chance? Who knows, that's up to the authors. The kitsune content doesn't deserve the hate that it gets though, that's for sure.

 

[Acharehnus]

That was an incredibly verbose way of saying "I think players are just shocked they aren't treated like gods. I think they're being entitled"

And my response is that's a great opinion not based on anyones actual complaints. I don't need to be treated to whatever your idea of a power fantasy for a player is to be satisfied, just cram all the racism in both their behavior and in writing them to be his stunted understanding of Japanese people.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

That was an incredibly verbose way of saying "I think players are just shocked they aren't treated like gods. I think they're being entitled"

If I don't go into enough detail with what I mean I find that people often read into things and make their own interpretations. In order to avoid being misunderstood and waste time responding to people who missed my point I tend to go a bit overboard when making an explanation. Apologies if it was longer than it needed to be.

And my response is that's a great opinion not based on anyones actual complaints.

A vast majority of the complaints are how xenophobic and racist the kitsune are perceived right? Please explain to me how my example with Nakano is "not based on anyones actual complaints" because from my perspective it was a great place to start. I literally brought up one of the most xenophobic characters that people have a problem with in the Den and provided a perfectly valid explanation for his less-than-friendly demeanor towards the champion. So if the complaints aren't about the xenophobia or apparent racism towards non-kitsune then what are they about?

I don't need to be treated to whatever your idea of a power fantasy for a player is to be satisfied, just cram all the racism in both their behavior and in writing them to be his stunted understanding of Japanese people.

Legit confused by this sentence. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or what the point you're trying to make is here. Could you please clarify?

To be clear; I just like having discussions about stuff. I'm not here to argue or get heated about anything. Please don't interpret anything I'm saying with a hostile tone because its not like that I assure you lol

 

[Ace Hangman]

If I don't go into enough detail with what I mean I find that people often read into things and make their own interpretations. In order to avoid being misunderstood and waste time responding to people who missed my point I tend to go a bit overboard when making an explanation. Apologies if it was longer than it needed to be.

Agreed. People will quote someone's post or reply directly to them and never actually address a specific point or issue. If you try to be concise, they'll make assumptions, accusations, and occasionally psychological profiles for you. If you try to be clear and address their issues or misunderstandings, they'll complain you're posts are too long or that you're too wordy to be taken seriously.

Your reasoning and explanation for your opinion were easy to understand and I agree with your reasoning. But then, I also enjoy the kitsune content for the work and effort that went into it. The fact that there are characters and traits about them that I can disagree with or dislike (without it being because of bad writing or just erratic shifting of personalities in the same character between scenes) is great.

 

[Bleh223]

TOBS, this you?

The problem people have with the kitsune is that they treat our character like garbage and our character acts like a complete pushover and has absolutely no opinion other than positive ones when around them. Most of them have this unearned: "better than you" attitude and they aren't called out on it at all. They claim to be victims and are like: "Boo hoo, nobody likes us" while at the same time they are going around forcibily sucking people's lifeforces out. What did they expect? I remember in my first ever playthrough marrying Kiyoko the twins suddenly got all uppity and said: "Don't you dare embarass her" like I'm this bumbling savage. At that point, I'm wondering what the hell is going on.

Long story short, people don't like them because they treat our character like trash and we can do nothing about it.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Agreed. People will quote someone's post or reply directly to them and never actually address a specific point or issue. If you try to be concise, they'll make assumptions, accusations, and occasionally psychological profiles for you. If you try to be clear and address their issues or misunderstandings, they'll complain you're posts are too long or that you're too wordy to be taken seriously.

Its my biggest pet peeve on the internet. If you're too short they just fill in the holes however they like and ignore whatever your main point is. The instant you actually write out a fully formed reply that leaves no room for misunderstandings you get hit with "I'm not reading all that lol" It makes me want to flip my desk every time.

Your reasoning and explanation for your opinion were easy to understand and I agree with your reasoning. But then, I also enjoy the kitsune content for the work and effort that went into it. The fact that there are characters and traits about them that I can disagree with or dislike (without it being because of bad writing or just erratic shifting of personalities in the same character between scenes) is great.

We are of a shared opinion! I think that the Kitsune den has some of the best written and most fleshed out content in the game, especially when compared to other places like the marefolk or centaur villages. Both of those locations are filled with characters that accept the Champion PC with open arms (and legs) but after their initial quests are done the player isn't given much reason to ever return. Even if they do decide to go back just because they enjoyed the characters they won't be treated to any scenes that prompt new reactions or make the village feel more alive.

By comparison the kitsune den is insane with the amount of activity the player can experience. The characters have dialogue and reactions that change depending on if you've saved Kiyoko or accepted Keros' offer and not just that but we're also treated to little mini-scenes where we can see the denizens of the Den interacting with each other or members of our Foxy Family. I love it.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Did I just get asked if I was TOBS on a secret alt account or something? I'm gonna take it as a compliment lmao

The problem people have with the kitsune is that they treat our character like garbage and our character acts like a complete pushover and has absolutely no opinion other than positive ones when around them. Most of them have this unearned: "better than you" attitude and they aren't called out on it at all. They claim to be victims and are like: "Boo hoo, nobody likes us" while at the same time they are going around forcibily sucking people's lifeforces out. What did they expect? I remember in my first ever playthrough marriying Kiyoko the twins suddenly got all uppity and said: "Don't you dare embarass her" like I'm this bumbling savage. At that point, I'm wondering what the hell is going on.

Long story short, people don't like them because they treat our character like trash and we can do nothing about it.

Ah, this is where we disagree. The only character in my memory that openly acts like they're better than the Champion is Takahiro and he's not even written by TOBS. The rest of the kitsune treat the champion like they're an outsider with no idea about kitsune customs, and that's a pretty accurate response in my opinion.

Despite having no knowledge of their customs the closest you get to being mocked for it is when you bring Kiyoko along with you to talk to Nakano. She tells you not to worry about so much about their customs and to feel free to act like a bumbling fool. This isn't said because they think the champion is incapable of learning or something like that its brought up because the champion isn't expected to know. Nor would the Champion be expected to have the time to learn all the little rules and customs of their society while literally fighting off a demon invasion. Any further crass behavior on their part can easily be traced back to my earlier point where they're still waiting for the champion to prove themselves as more than just Kiyoko's fuck toy.

As for the whole "sucking peoples lifeforce out" thing I do believe they actually ask for permission first before attacking. I know that they still attempt to jump you even if your character says no but how much of that is because its a video game eh? Consider that they mention a lot of people in the frostwood area are perfectly willing to partake in the trade the kitsune are offering. By comparison we see far less dialogue about them forcefully abducting people just to drain them until they're dead. I hesitate to say zero in this case only because I don't have perfect recall of every scene with every kitsune. I do feel confident enough to say that the number of unwilling participants are far less than the number of willing ones however.

To me this complaint boils down to "the kitsune said some things about me that I didn't like and I couldn't start a fight over it" and my rebuttal to that is when was that ever an option in the game? Most of the choices in the game itself revolve around which hole you're using at any given moment. Any choices not hole related usually boil down to whether you're choosing the corruption path or not and aren't really a reflection of your character in their day to day interactions with the NPC's. This all kind of backs up the point of my original post; Most people don't like the kitsune den simply because they're use to all the other characters worshiping the ground they walk on. People don't like being told 'No.' or having their power trip fantasy ruined so the kitsune den can be an immersion breaker.

The best example I can make for the kitsune behavior is this; Its like if your boss suddenly got a new secretary at work and they're obviously fucking each other. You have to treat the new secretary nicely because you want to keep your spot at work and your boss obviously loves them but at the same time you have your doubts as to whether or not they're capable of actually doing the the job they've been hired to do.

To summarize; If you take into account their history, position and perspective then the way they treat the champion makes sense. People are allowed to like or dislike whatever content they want in the game and thankfully because this game is so huge ignoring sections you don't enjoy is an acceptable answer. That being said I stand by my original point about how most people just don't like being told no during their power fantasy.

 

[Bleh223]

Snip

I would avoid them, but Evergreen's reward is pretty much the goto gear I use for most of my characters. That and they have a waypoint. Ignoring them is not going to be the easiest thing ever. Besides, people aren't expecting to be treated as gods. Just not as a country savage they've decided to let in. You're saying that people wanna start a fight over some dialogue, that's not the case. I just want my character to at least have the ability to think: "What a bunch of jackasses" when the kitsune act like a bunch of jackasses, which is most of the time. Legit only a few of them are tolerable and pleasant to be around.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

I would avoid them, but Evergreen's reward is pretty much the goto gear I use for most of my characters. That and they have a waypoint. Ignoring them is not going to be the easiest thing ever.

I could make the argument that the only waypoints you lose are the den itself and kiyoko's home area in the old forest. Arguably both of which you won't be interested in if you don't like the kitsune content anyways. Neither of those locations are close to anything meaningful on their exterior either so even as a shortcut to somewhere else they're not really viable. Also If Evergreen's reward is your primary appeal to finding the kitsune then once you do their initial meet and greet with komari you've done all you need to do and don't ever need to go back. She doesn't take the amulet away from you at that point either so you could still get kiyoko content, if that was something the player enjoyed. Still though if gear and the waypoints is really what you care about then you don't need to read all the scenes, you can just skip through it and that would be the end of it. But your point is fair enough, even if I don't completely agree with it.

People aren't expecting to be treated as gods. Just not as a country savage they've decided to let in.

I just want my character to at least have the ability to think: "What a bunch of jackasses" when the kitsune act like a bunch of jackasses...

You kind of contradict yourself here with these two sentences. You don't like being treated as though your Champ is ignorant of their culture and customs, despite it being an accurate summary, and now the kitsune are "jackasses" just because they bluntly point out the obvious. I pointed this out in my last post but the kitsune aren't doing that in a mocking tone at any time that I can remember. The only times it even comes up during a scene is when your Champ outwardly expresses their worries over their lack of knowledge. Then the kitsune around the champ at the time do their best to ease any worries the champ may have, even if they're not so good at it. They're also not about to lie to your face though so while its true you can't be expected to know every little thing they won't tell you that its totally okay to fuck things up. Their ceremonies and rituals are important and now that you're part of them you should try your best as well, especially as Kiyoko's consort. Case in point; Your example about Miko and Mai telling you not to ruin things for Kiyoko during the wedding. The Champ gets this dialogue with the twins when they express that they want to do things properly and make sure not to embarrass Kiyoko on her wedding day. A day that is universally seen as mainly being focused on the wife. Of course they're going to give you a hard time and make sure you don't do anything wrong to screw it up. The Champ's ignorance is never reacted to with any sort of malice however, its always just an acknowledgment of the fact.

All that being said I can think of one time where you can give a kitsune their comeuppance; When you first meet Takahiro you have the option of punching him out for being a jerk. It would be nice to get a scene where we can surprise the kitsune by conducting ourselves properly during a ceremony or some such thing without needing prior instruction though. Maybe surprise them all and get them to shut up a bit. As long as we can all appreciate the amount of work that'd go into such a task of course. Remodeling the entire den to have yet another set of different scenes based on whether or not the Champ has gained approval with them on top of everything else is a crazy amount of work.

Thanks for the calm discussion by the way, I appreciate how we can both be level headed here even though we disagree.

 

[Jackal2]

The only character in my memory that openly acts like they're better than the Champion is Takahiro and he's not even written by TOBS

And Takahiro is the town drunk so his words mean nothing to me. Sober up and I'll start respecting his opinion. The only other one who could be considered rude is Nakano and given how we first met and that he's my son in law I don't take his stand offishness personally. Everybody else has been polite granted I've never turned down the kitsune group in the forest as they need life force to live so giving it to them is akin to donating blood.

 

[Ace Hangman]

It would be nice to get a scene where we can surprise the kitsune by conducting ourselves properly during a ceremony or some such thing without needing prior instruction though. Maybe surprise them all and get them to shut up a bit. As long as we can all appreciate the amount of work that'd go into such a task of course.

Unfortunately, being able to do that without some prior instruction would be very tough to realistically portray. Someone would logically have to teach or instruct you, otherwise it would require time spent just secretly spying or observing (which could be done for some things), but the fact they have an entirely different language and alphabet makes learning strictly through eavesdropping rather hard (there could be some things, but those likely wouldn't be super impressive).

I think actually practicing and learning and getting instruction from one without most of the others knowing would still be okay, though. Otherwise I think the only real option would be Keros himself 'imparting' some clues or knowledge himself, but it would likely have to be from the desire for entertainment, amusement, or shaking things up. Similar to how he let you understand their language briefly.

That said, it would be a nice fantasy scene to be sitting with Nakano as he (tersely) discusses poetry while you're looking over at one of his works, filled with Kitsune symbols... and just walk over looking thoughtful and just flip it upside down and somehow the new orientation of the symbols brings him to tears at the effortless beauty and simplicity of what you just did... but that's kind of unbelievable.

I also thought about just bullying Nakano with seeming generosity. Like when he mentioned not having a devoted training place... just showing up with a single board of pristine wood and commending him on his honorable performance of duty and offering him a single plank. At his confusion, I'd mention it was the start of his dojo and hand it to him... looking around and asking where he plans to place the first, and most important board. Maybe hint that if he keeps up the fine work... he'd get another one someday.

Or maybe getting Keros or Komari to help you trick Takahiro into marrying Azumi... like giving you a wedding ring to have her wear in her ear... then next time they're anger-banging and he's teasing her by slipping his fingers into her earrings, "and you have one for each time we had sex before I left... Wait... what's this one?", as his finger slips into it, it seamless flows from her ear onto his hand, "This is a... wedding ring.. and I slide my finger into it willingly!"

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Unfortunately, being able to do that without some prior instruction would be very tough to realistically portray. Someone would logically have to teach or instruct you, otherwise it would require time spent just secretly spying or observing (which could be done for some things), but the fact they have an entirely different language and alphabet makes learning strictly through eavesdropping rather hard (there could be some things, but those likely wouldn't be super impressive).

I think some scenes of Kiyoko or Kinu giving the Champ Kitsune etiquette lessons would be a really good way to implement this. When I said "without prior instruction" earlier I more meant from Komari and her ilk rather than assuming you wouldn't ask any kitsune at all for help.

 

[pope]

They are abominations. The scripture states, "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith". Such a being, part man and part beast, thus born of a sacrilege committed between the two, is an affront unto God Himself.

But what do I know, I'm just the Pope.

 

[Animefan666]

They are abominations. The scripture states, "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith". Such a being, part man and part beast, thus born of a sacrilege committed between the two, is an affront unto God Himself.

But what do I know, I'm just the Pope.

Preach to someone that cares. Why make an account with the purpose of speaking against the very site's existence? You might as well spew this stuff to random videos on Pornhub. It's just as pointless and ineffective.

 

[Kingu2]

In my own opinion the reason why people don't like the kitsune content is because its a sudden shift from what they're use to seeing in the rest of the game. Instead of being treated like the greatest thing to ever walk the Earth just for showing up the residents in the kitsune den are actually waiting for the champion to demonstrate they're more than just a good bed warmer. Will we ever actually be given that chance? Who knows, that's up to the authors. The kitsune content doesn't deserve the hate that it gets though, that's for sure.

Going to have to call you out here because this opinion is just asinine. The idea that any players feel this way is just insulting. as Acharehnus pointed out you didn't address anyones complaints directly and instead opted to make up your own examples that have nothing to do with what anyone talked about.You can't pretend it actually addresses the xenophobia and racism that is a big part of why people don't like them and then gloss over ALL of the other complaints people have actually made against them.

They have have sat in the marches 200 years and have REFUSED to engage with the natives in any meaningful capicity beyond using them as walking blood bags.(and no them asking first does not make it in anyway okay for them to take it by force) As many have pointed out in this thread, their complete isolationist stance sees them disconnected from the rest of the game and there treatment of non-kitsune ranges from dismisive to total passive agressive hostility. Even Kiyoko who I love is a prime example of a xenophobe who won't interact with anyone other than the player and those in her in-group not even the other companions. This is all to say nothing of how they treat non-kitsune back in there home country.

It is also pointed out repeatedly on this thread that they are a very shallow, weebish dipiction of Japanese people that many are frustrated with. Likely feeling it does a diservice to actual Japanes people.

Lastly and excarbating all of this is Tobs' writing which takes a general "my way or the highway" attitude towards player agency. Dictating the PCs thoughts to them, having the PC go along with whatever another character says or does, offering absolutely no options for pushback, indictment or even just distaste for other characters actions and mannerisms. He created this content explicitly wanting players to feel their xenophobia and prejudice and be made uncomfortable by it. Players can either engage with the content the way he wants them to or not at all.

I implore you to go back to the beginning of this thread and actually read through what people have said about the content and get a full picture of how they feel about it.

 

[Jstar]

Fonx

 

[Bleh223]

Preach to someone that cares. Why make an account with the purpose of speaking against the very site's existence? You might as well spew this stuff to random videos on Pornhub. It's just as pointless and ineffective.

I think he did a thing called a "joke".

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Going to have to call you out here because this opinion is just asinine.

I mean you can disagree all you like but lets stay away from the insults yeah? No need to take things personally here, its just a discussion.

as Acharehnus pointed out you didn't address anyones complaints directly

I didn't think it was appropriate to dig through the thread and reply to people who may have been done with the conversation. My reply to this thread wasn't to any one person or point in particular (save when I was directly responding to someone) it was just me sharing my own thoughts and opinions on the matter in broader strokes. To be clear though I'm not coming into this thread with a "Me VS them" mentality. Asking me to pour over every single post in this thread and write up a counter-argument to every single one is a little absurd isn't it? Its not like this is some court room proceeding where the burden of proof lies with just a single party. At the end of the day people are allowed to like or dislike whatever they want and as much as I may enjoy discussing both sides of a subject I'm not going to try and force anyone to change their mind.

They have have sat in the marches 200 years and have REFUSED to engage with the natives in any meaningful capicity...
As many have pointed out in this thread, their complete isolationist stance sees them disconnected from the rest of the game...

The boreal elves do literally the same thing but nobody hates on them for it. The elves, much like the kitsune, have been living behind their own walls since the godswar ended and only when the Champ comes along do things change. I'd argue that the elves are even more disconnected from the rest of the game considering that you don't really get the chance to interact with them in their city beyond the royal entourage and Ryn's dates. Telfir, the elven tailor we meet during one of Ryn's dates, doesn't even have his own spot in the city or an image bust despite the fact that he can help you upgrade the wayfort. So is it really their isolastionism that's the issue here? Clearly not, especially when we don't see the elves recieving any flak for the exact same behavior.

(and no them asking first does not make it in anyway okay for them to take it by force)

I never said it did. The kitsune do have their law for equivilent exchange though so nothing is taken without a proper reward, it just so happens that those rewards take the form of sexual favors because this is an adult game. If we expand the scope of reasoning to include non-video game responses though I'm sure you could just as easily recieve some other form of compensation. "But CC, that still doesn't make it okay!" you're thinking at this very moment and I agree with you! However I do have a counter-argument; The mino's that roam the undermountain will also sexually assault anybody passing through the area but they don't treat it as a fair exchange, they literally refer to the Champ and their party as "holes" and then immedietly attack. So again we have an example of another race doing the exact same behavior as the kitsune (worse in this case imo) yet recieving none of the same hate.

there treatment of non-kitsune ranges from dismisive to total passive agressive hostility.

See my example about "being the bosses secretary" above. If that still doesn't work for you then lets take a little trip to the society and culture section of the kitsune codex entry;

"In foreign lands, they are often considered more akin to monsters than civilized peoples by the native folk, and much energy and concern is directed towards getting sustenance without provoking the locals into driving them out."

So basically kitsune are widely discriminated against and looked down upon by outsiders, potentially to the point of being persecuted. Yet somehow they should be expected to instantly warm up to some random outsider who just days ago was seen fighting other kitsune and causing problems? Did anyone ever actually stop to read the lore and maybe think that their standoffish attitude towards non-kitsune made sense? They're aware of their own nature and need to consume lifeforce but thats a huge reason for all their rules. Also consider the fact that just because you live near somebody doesn't mean you need to be their friend. Do you know every single person you lives near you and have a close personal friendship with them? Of course not, because its not realistic.

It is also pointed out repeatedly on this thread that they are a very shallow, weebish dipiction of Japanese people that many are frustrated with. Likely feeling it does a diservice to actual Japanes people.

This is a joke right? I mean I feel confident in saying that literally everybody here playing this game is a weeb to some degree. We're all cringey degenerates playing an adult game and rubbing one out to fancy erotic words. Lets get off our high horses for a minute and really take a step back to look in a mirror. Would we honestly be able to come up with something that wasn't just a little bit cringey by someone elses standards? This is just a weird thing to pick in my opinion because if you really don't like the content then you can just skip it. Its also not like anybody out here is claiming that the Minos and their depiction of Roman/Greek culture is doing a disservice to real modern day people living in Greece. So again, why is it okay for another race in the game but suddenly not okay for kitsune?

Lastly and excarbating all of this is Tobs' writing which takes a general "my way or the highway" attitude towards player agency. Dictating the PCs thoughts to them, having the PC go along with whatever another character says or does, offering absolutely no options for pushback, indictment or even just distaste for other characters actions and mannerisms.

Please show me places in the game where the Champ is capable of interuppting a scene and choosing an option that allows for pushback or expressing distaste of another character. I have a hard time recalling any point in the game where the player was given the agency and freedom you're describing. 90% of our choices in the game as a player revolves around consenting or not consenting to certain sexual acts. Very few, if any, choices allow you to suddenly outright declare your distaste for another character. Its widely assumed that players will just avoid any content they don't enjoy and that's an acceptable answer for the rest of the game so why is it not okay for the kitsune? Its not like you can admonish Cait for her openly sexual lifestyle or get angry at Atugia for jumping to conclusions and attacking you, and those are actual companions. If you can't get that level of depth from a companion character then why would you assume you'd get it from random NPC's?

He created this content explicitly wanting players to feel their xenophobia and prejudice and be made uncomfortable by it. Players can either engage with the content the way he wants them to or not at all.

I mean he's not a god, he can't control how you feel or react to things. As an author he can have a goal in mind for a certain feeling he wants a scene to give off but beyond that its totally all you. This is evident by the fact that people still love the kitsune content. I myself don't feel uncomfortable by it at all because I feel like it makes sense considering their history, culture and perspective. But as I've said before you don't need to engage in any content you don't like, its not as though anyone is holding a gun to your head and forcing the matter.

I implore you to go back to the beginning of this thread and actually read through what people have said about the content and get a full picture of how they feel about it.

I'll respond to anyone who cares to respond to me but I'm not going to go through this entire thread and create detailed responses to every single post people made in the past just because you want me to. Like I said above, I'm not here to fight a battle or force anyone to change their minds. Its just a discussion.

In conclusion I have a thing I'd like to mention; Most of the main points that were brought up here as viable reasons to hate the kitsune are things that other races in the game are also guilty of doing yet they don't ever get brought up. I think this is some sort of fallacy and it amuses me.

 

[Dude_with_bad_english]

I'll respond to anyone who cares to respond to me but I'm not going to go through this entire thread and create detailed responses to every single post people made in the past just because you want me to. Like I said above, I'm not here to fight a battle or force anyone to change their minds. Its just a discussion.

Man, I sincerely hope you're just go there for a little trolling.

Because otherwise you seriously lied about your birth year when you registered on the forum and you either have teenage hormones running amok or senile marasmus is setting in.