Why do a lot of people dislike the kitsune so much?

[Resawar]

Now that this is confirmed as true, I see no reason not to acknowledge the possible validity of the statement made by

spite point proven at least on this case. The fox content did get changed from tobs stance on it in one case here, it show that tobs was not going to include fem pc pronouns but if you look today we have mother as an option for Kinu to call us. All of Rudra's points are up to a persons interpretation of tobs to be fair.

Also that screen shot proves CC's salt mine point and I'm not sure why you quoted that sentence with that screenshot because uh it didn't prove it? It only proved the spite point so maybe if you think so?

 

[Jackal2]

Man he completely ignored the whole slavery thing and went full Raphael thinking everyone who isn't a kitsune in their country is merely food as though Keros didn't spend a century as a tanuki noodle salesman in the country. Also forgot that Kitsune are roughly 15% of the population as if there are to many there's not enough energy to go around. And let's not forget though they won't be the God-Emperor tanuki can rise to governors or vassals of one of the 12 divine houses.

And a reminder the 12 Divine Houses are called such because they are literally descendants of their prime deity. Just gonna hammer that in once more, 12 kitsune houses not tanuki (who share the same religion) are related to Keros which is where their authority comes from.

 

[Bleh223]

spite point proven at least on this case. The fox content did get changed from tobs stance on it in one case here, it show that tobs was not going to include fem pc pronouns but if you look today we have mother as an option for Kinu to call us. All of Rudra's points are up to a persons interpretation of tobs to be fair.

Also that screen shot proves CC's salt mine point and I'm not sure why you quoted that sentence with that screenshot because uh it didn't prove it? It only proved the spite point so maybe if you think so?

It proves that TOBS is at least capable of doing something like what was described by Rudra, whether he did or not still remains to be seen. Although the likelihood he did is higher now, in my eyes.

 

[TheIrishOtaku]

Also I find it hilarious that someone with "otaku" in their username is complaining about weeb stuff.

I'm no longer involved in this discussion but since you felt the need to say this, I may be an otaku but that doesn't mean I'm ok with every anime related thing being shoved into a game if I think its done poorly and distastefully. I have standards.

 

[TalRasha]

To put it simply: kitsunes in CoC 2 is nothing more but a gene-stealers.

/topic

 

[Tide Hunter]

Its kind of hypocritical for people to say they don't like the kitsune due to their rapey antics yet the Minos who do the same behavior don't have a single hate thread. Just because they're minos and not kitsune doesn't make it any less relevant to the discussion at hand.

Given the previous person's mention of the undermountain specifically, it seems you're talking about the Minotaur Miners. I don't know of anybody who wouldn't say the minotaur miners are dickheads (although as has been said, this topic is about the kitsune). The difference is in presentation and justification. The minotaur miners come in and say that they're really horny, they want to fuck, and they aren't taking no for an answer. They're gruff, rude, and not trying to hide that.

The kitsune encounters (in the wild, specifically, not in the tree) kinda aren't. The three forest kitsune are likely to be the first kitsune you encounter, if you don't speedrun through the Old Forest or rush straight towards Kiyoko. They give you a long speech about how they're really desperate and how their race is forcing them to rob and fuck random passersby, and won't you please give him something? And then if his speech (and your horniness) fail to produce a result, the trio proceed to fight you to rape you.

Essentially, the minotaur miners are easily segmented off from the rest of minotaurs, because they're just individual dickheads. But the kitsune, particularly the first kitsune group you encounter, try to act like they're noble and forced into this, because of both their race and racism that we've never actually seen being directed towards the kitsune, only ever seen coming from kitsune toward the 'barbarians.' Because they tie their actions to their race, and because the later frostwood kitsune who are in nowhere near as bad a situation still try to rape you for essence (which seems like a similarly race-based justification), they end up redirecting hate for their actions towards their race and society overall, allowing for this to be swept up into the general ball of anti-kitsune resentment.

 

[Ace Hangman]

They give you a long speech about how they're really desperate and how their race is forcing them to rob and fuck random passersby, and won't you please give him something? And then if his speech (and your horniness) fail to produce a result, the trio proceed to fight you to rape you.

But the kitsune, particularly the first kitsune group you encounter, try to act like they're noble and forced into this, because of both their race and racism that we've never actually seen being directed towards the kitsune, only ever seen coming from kitsune toward the 'barbarians.' Because they tie their actions to their race, and because the later frostwood kitsune who are in nowhere near as bad a situation still try to rape you for essence (which seems like a similarly race-based justification), they end up redirecting hate for their actions towards their race and society overall, allowing for this to be swept up into the general ball of anti-kitsune resentment.

This is such a blatantly untrue and misleading statement and representation. Anyone can look at Hinata, Kiri, and Yuzu's encounter and see that what you're saying is obviously untrue.

First Encounter

The Champion will first encounter the Forest Kitsune when exploring the Old Forest while the Alraune has not been defeated yet, and they must be at least level 2. While travelling through the forest, the Champion will sense that something is off and they ready their weapons, a Lupine Champion will be able to identify a distinct scent in the wind, and a Champion with the Hunter background will know that they are in immediate danger. The sound of stretching elastic draws the Champion's attention and they immediately throw themselves forward as an arrow whistles through the air. The Champion faces the direction where the arrow came from, and a man speaks out to them; apologizing, that they won't kill the Champion, but they need to survive and rob them. Hinata states his name and promises that they will repay what they will take from the Champion in equal measure. When asked if they want coin, he states that it doesn't fill the stomach, they need food, otherwise there will be alternatives. When asked they don't they just hunt game instead, Hinata answers that they don't dare touch strange fruit of the forest and the usual game has grown alarmingly scarce. He cuts the conversation by asking if the Champion will allow them to take what they need, or will the Champion force their hand.

They very clearly ask for food because they are starving, which is no different than any race or creature in existence. They are starving and will die and they are so desperate that they are willing to rob the PC to live. The very first thing they will ask for is food itself. The fact that they have a secondary way to nourish themselves to not make them rapists.

Help

Understanding the difficult situation they are in, the Champion will clarify if the kitsune want food. Hinata answers that they're not picky, as long as it does not carry any taint that the forest pertains, he adds that if the Champion wishes to keep their provisions, they can feed directly off the Champion's life force. If the Champion had met Kiyoko, they would know what the process entails, else they are taken aback. Regardless, Hinata explains that neither he nor his subordinates would take anything of that nature without the Champion's consent, and he comments that sex is usually the most pleasant way to go about it, else he could simply rip it straight from them, but that would be the most uncomfortable option. With that, the Champion is given the following options:

• Share Food - Give the hungry kitsune a portion of your provisions. This will consume one camping supplies. (requires Camping Supplies or Trail Rations)
• Share Essence - Rather than give up any of your provisions, feed the kitsune trio in a more... direct, if pleasurable, manner.

The Champ is free to give food or share their essence if they don't have or don't wish to give up their food.

Even if you refuse and have to fight, it is such a far cry from being raped and some sexual assault.
Refuse

Refusing to help the kitsune will have Hinata laugh bitterly and state that they'll have to move onto more aggressive negotiations, before calling on his subordinates to attack the Champion.
. . .
Should the Champion be defeated, Hinata will call Kiri and Yuzu to loot through the spoils while he holds down the Champion. If the Champion has Trail Rations or Camping Supplies, the archers will be able to find and take it, and once they've secured the supplies, Hinata orders them to leave first as he will be covering their tracks, but before leaving, he gives the Champion a lesson on charity, but mocks that his words are falling on deaf ears, so he thanks them for the food and bids them a good day. If no food is found, at random, one of the kitsune will drain the Champion, while the others drain a random sexable companion. Unlike Hinata who goes straight to the point to get the essence, Yuzu drains with a kiss and Kiri with a bite. After they are drained, the Champion will receive the Drained status effect.

If refused, they attack because they are desperate and starving, and if they win, they take food and supplies, they don't rape you. If you don't have supplies, they drain your essence because they are starving and dying. Even then, it's just a straight drain from Hinata, little more than you casting a Leech spell. Yuzu uses a kiss to facilitate it and Kiri uses a bite. That is a far cry from being rape or raping or sexually assaulting anyone in the context of this game or world.

Even later in their camp, if you choose to '"Feed"' them, Hinata cautions against this and states that people become addicted husks. Then, they show thanks and obeisance to the Champ for being their benefactor, bowing and thanking them profusely, even against the Champ's wishes and statement about it, and when it's claimed to be unnecessary. Hinata is adamant that it's to keep from viewing others as mere 'food' and to keep the dignity of both parties. That is a far cry from some rapist, indifferent monster, rather than a desparate person, responsible for the lives of two subordinates being forced to common banditry while starving and being refused aid after first asking for help.

I don't even know why you would try and make this claim with your example.

 

[Ireyon]

To answer OP's original question:

Because they aren't welcoming to the PC. That's literally it. If you look at how people in Hawkethorne, the Winter City and Ko'Minos behave you'd be forgiven for thinking that the people in this work saw the glowing protagonist sign over our head and instantly trusted us with their lives, home and family.

Which is a very strange thing by real world standards because they've known us for an hour, tops. Now, this makes some narrative sense: Hawkethorne is a small village in bumfuck nowhere and grasping at straws for any help at all, the Winter City is in the middle of a hostile makeover and solving issue 1 and 2 makes us famous enough that the minotaurs are willing to trust us since we're certified demon hunters at that point.

The kitsune are isolationists who don't care about any of that (and can't be corrupted due to having no souls to lose) while their first encounter with us is our motely group breaking into their home and beating up their guards under orders of their arch-enemy.

So even after it's cleared up they react like you would to the perpetrator after an impromptu home invasion: An aura of polite but distant "thanks, please leave now".

Yes, I know that people are desperate to drag this into yet another political debate (mostly Americans because they seem unable to shut up about it, yes I know most if not all people working on this game are American, that doesn't mean it's not true) but the sticking point is literally that they're merely an isolationist village with a number of rude people in a game that is otherwise desperate for the PC to solve their issues. That's it.

Honestly, I feel that this entire debate could've been skipped if Tobs had had the foresight to make someone with a more diplomatic mindset our main interaction person.

Instead it's Nakano and while I'd love to screw that guy I won't pretend that he's not a rude prick to the people who could burn his village to the ground if they felt like it. Yes, I know it's based on Japan and Japan as a whole is pretty isolationist. They still have skilled diplomats, hence their otherwise sterling reputation when compared to other countries.

Personally I find the detour to the kitsune den refreshing. Minus Kiyoko and Kinu. Kinu is cute and I'd love her normally but her storyline strays too far from the main story thread. Kiyoko is fine too but I dislike the "you have to sleep with her to free her" aspect to her writing. At least I can hand the amulet in even if Keros gets pissy about it. Making her the main PC in her storyline could've worked if you folded it into the actual story (I don't know, make her want to be like dad and go on a demon slaying mission together) but instead the conflict with the vulpines is completely divorced from the main plot. Something which incidentally ends up making the PC look like a deadbeat dad for not noticing that his daughter is in mortal danger.

TL;DR: Tobs is a skilled writer, no questions asked. The problem is that his content doesn't seem to gel or interact with the rest of the game at all. There are many good ways this could be fixed but Tobs seems to prefer just writing his own story in the game which is fine if you like the topic he's writing about.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

I'm no longer involved in this discussion but since you felt the need to say this, I may be an otaku but that doesn't mean I'm ok with every anime related thing being shoved into a game if I think its done poorly and distastefully. I have standards.

I just thought it was ironic and found it amusing, no need to take offense.

 

[TheIrishOtaku]

I just thought it was ironic and found it amusing, no need to take offense.

Fair enough, hard to tell through text, just thought I'd make my stance clear regardless.

 

[pope]

Preach to someone that cares. Why make an account with the purpose of speaking against the very site's existence? You might as well spew this stuff to random videos on Pornhub. It's just as pointless and ineffective.

Some crusades are failures, true, but it is not better to risk failing in pursuit of one's ideals than to give up on them?

Also, I really am actually the pope, for real guys. How could I be lying, just look at my picture!

 

[Zbearbear]

Now that I sit down and think about it..It's not that I dislike it, I just don't feel any draw to it. Another commentor mentioned it feelings so disconnected and off from the main plot. Beside a couple of decent lewd scenes I've come across I really just...don't feel drawn to it and I honestly forget it's there. It kinda sucks because Kinu is what one of two children being developed to some extent at this point and the content she's attached to is just so meh for me.

 

[Saint3224]

I dislike the kitsunes mostly because of the lack of content for dom players, specifically for the male kitsunes, most of the time you'll be on the receiving end with them and that lack of versatility annoys me

 

[Bleh223]

Found it:

View attachment 32235

Now that this is confirmed as true, I see no reason not to acknowledge the possible validity of the statement made by @Rudra72 .

Here's the link if you want: https://forum.fenoxo.com/threads/who-is-your-favourite-character-and-why.16705/page-6#post-311410

Hold on a sec I just thought about this, TOB's profile pic looks like Kinu doing something not particularly wholesome but he's against our character doing anything with Kinu? I'm kinda getting mixed signals here.

 

[ForeverLurker]

Hold on a sec I just thought about this, TOB's profile pic looks like Kinu doing something not particularly wholesome but he's against our character doing anything with Kinu? I'm kinda getting mixed signals here.

I think it was her being plowed by the farm boy husband. I remember seeing the full picture somewhere. Also I think patron has a problem with certain kinks so no coc1 hellspawn shenanigans.

 

[Loveless]

I think it was her being plowed by the farm boy husband.

Yeah, here's the full image:

Spoiler

 

[Dude_with_bad_english]

Yeah, here's the full image:

Spoiler

I fully understand that fun with Kinu is forbidden due to Patreon rules and Tobs shinanigans and frankly - I don't care.

But what about our may-to-be son-in-law? There's plenty of space behind him, the Champ will fit right in. He doesn't even give her a knot, maybe he needs a little push. Or Champ can help Kinu service him properly.

A master class with Kiyoko would also be nice. "Attention children! This is how you do this pose without hurting each other".

Damn! I wrote some kinky stuff! Embarrassing!

 

[Bleh223]

I think it was her being plowed by the farm boy husband. I remember seeing the full picture somewhere. Also I think patron has a problem with certain kinks so no coc1 hellspawn shenanigans.

Not gonna lie, it's still kinda weird.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Not gonna lie, it's still kinda weird.

Don't be shaming, we're all degenerates here. No exceptions lol

 

[Bleh223]

Don't be shaming, we're all degenerates here. No exceptions lol

Nah I mean what's weird is that he seems so adamant against champs doing anything with Kinu (ignoring Patreon) and considering there are more questionable things in this game than incest that even he wrote. But I need to know, is that art in the game? Because if it is, his stance on the matter becomes even more questionable.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

there are more questionable things in this game than incest

Got any examples? I think this is largely a matter of opinion, personally I don't think any of the content in the game goes too far.

But I need to know, is that art in the game? Because if it is, his stance on the matter becomes even more questionable.

Negative, it was fan art that was sent to TOBS personally I believe. You can see TOBS post lots of stuff like that in their personal admission thread. At least I've never personally seen it in the game and I'd like to think that I've explored a great deal of the kitsune content.

 

[Bleh223]

Got any examples? I think this is largely a matter of opinion, personally I don't think any of the content in the game goes too far.

Rape, sexual slavery, what the corrupted centaurs did to Atani's mother (forced her to use heavy amounts of drugs + rape), demons and how they're created, among other things. In the context of the game I wouldn't say those things too far, however I think those things are probably worse than incest.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Rape, sexual slavery, what the corrupted centaurs did to Atani's mother (forced her to use heavy amounts of drugs + rape), demons and how they're created, among other things. In the context of the game I wouldn't say it's too far, however I think those things are probably worse than incest.

Fair enough. The important thing to remember is that just because an author wrote out the scene doesn't mean that they're particularly invested in that specific fetish. Awhile back when I first joined up I think I made a comment somewhere about one particular author having a certain fetish because a lot of the content they wrote revolved around the same themes. I can't remember who or what it was but I do recall getting a response where I got corrected and the author (or someone else, can't remember) stated that it actually wasn't a fetish they were particularly interested in, they just happened to be good at writing scenes that included it.

I think there are two reasons why TOBS refuses to write Kinu content, even if the rules allowed it. It could be just one or it could be both.
The first reason; It was a spite project. TOBS out here trolling people and the more people request Kinu content the funnier it gets.
The second reason; TOBS views Kinu as a special character and doesn't want to see all the weirdo internet degens simping over her, almost like a real dad.

Either way its up to the author to decide what they want to spend their time writing and TOBS just isn't interested in it, whatever the reason may be.

 

[Bleh223]

The first reason; It was a spite project. TOBS out here trolling people and the more people request Kinu content the funnier it gets.
The second reason; TOBS views Kinu as a special character and doesn't want to see all the weirdo internet degens simping over her, almost like a real dad.

For the first reason, I'm not exactly sure why he felt the need to do that
For the second reason, if he views Kinu that way he has a strange way of showing it with that art being his profile pic...

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

For the first reason, I'm not exactly sure why he felt the need to do that
For the second reason, if he views Kinu that way he has a strange way of showing it with that art being his profile pic...

Without actually getting a reason from the person themselves firsthand all we can do is speculate lol

 

[Emily Smith]

Nah I mean what's weird is that he seems so adamant against champs doing anything with Kinu (ignoring Patreon) and considering there are more questionable things in this game than incest that even he wrote. But I need to know, is that art in the game? Because if it is, his stance on the matter becomes even more questionable.

I agree. Fictional incest is nothing compared to some fetishes. Though personally neither Kinu gives me I want to fuck you vibes.. one has half the forest wedged to her backside.

 

[Soulsderfuchs]

For the first reason, I'm not exactly sure why he felt the need to do that
For the second reason, if he views Kinu that way he has a strange way of showing it with that art being his profile pic...

He wrote Kinu before he wrote it for CoC II, you can see in his post here https://forum.fenoxo.com/threads/observation-post-of-the-observer.12888/ he has a whole novela around her getting fucked.

 

[Stemwinder]

At this point I would say most people's problem with it can be summed up as 'it's so clearly content for an entirely different game featuring the writer's OC and any time this game or its main character is mentioned it's to snark or hiss at them'.

If this were a standalone spin-off I imagine more people would be willing to engage with it on its own terms, but if it insists on being in this game people are going to expect it to get with the program to some extent.

 

[Zackflame]

It could also be that TOBs robbed them of a chance at parenthood.

 

[Lucky_I]

I'm personally indifferent to the whole matter, or if anything I lean more towards liking it. There's some stuff I like and engage in, and some stuff I don't and ignore and thankfully there happens to be more of the former. I do wish it wasn't so wordy, I have a problem where if a "page" of text goes on for too long my eyes start to glaze and I just start skimming. It's hard to keep a boner through a bunch of waxing poetic.

The only things I want out of the Kitsunes is more I AM A BIG STINKY BRAIN queen Kiyoko scenes like the ones with Rindo and the seamstress who's name has unfortunately escaped me(like one with Kohaku would be nice) and I want to pitch it to Tetsuya.