What I hate the most is the fact that the PC is basically the kitsune's bitch
Why do a lot of people dislike the kitsune so much?
- Thread starter Lostname475
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The wasted potential for character development, lack of any real interesting choices, and my sexual tastes apparently being polar opposite of Tobs' are my main issues, i guess.
I've said it before, if the kitsune really were Japanese, after PC demolishes them, they wouldn't just continue the same bullshit. Japan adapts when they lose. Sakamoto Ryoma started big on "Revere the Emperor, Expel the Barbarians," but he still wore western shoes with his samurai gear. Hell, one character like that in the den, pushing for some modernization/adaptation of beneficial 'barbarian' culture to better survive in the marches, and acting as your ally and support would be a huge improvement. Kinu would have been a great choice for this, come to think of it.
Also minor pet peeve but Miko and Mai's names being short for Miyuki and Mikoto makes no fucking sense in Japanese and drives me insane
I am sitting in Japan (where I have lived half my life) as I say this: the den is not Japan. the den is a shallow weeb misunderstanding of Japan. kinda like Earthbound in reverse but with less lovable characters I guess?
I've said it before, if the kitsune really were Japanese, after PC demolishes them, they wouldn't just continue the same bullshit. Japan adapts when they lose. Sakamoto Ryoma started big on "Revere the Emperor, Expel the Barbarians," but he still wore western shoes with his samurai gear. Hell, one character like that in the den, pushing for some modernization/adaptation of beneficial 'barbarian' culture to better survive in the marches, and acting as your ally and support would be a huge improvement. Kinu would have been a great choice for this, come to think of it.
Coming back to say this, since there's kinda been a dogpile, and I also just ranted about Yusra in another thread: I have nothing against The Observer personally. I've only ever interacted with him once, and he was quite pleasant! I truly respect the sheer volume of content he's contributed to the game, especially now that I've got a better idea of just how much work that is. I think he's quite good at worldbuilding descriptions that my dialog-loving brain tends to gloss over a lot of the time.
And I do really appreciate that he at least tries to provide male content, even if personally, all his dudes either refuse my PC or just leave me dry enough to strike a match on my pussy. Shit, that's the story of my love life IRL too, I'm not gonna hold a grudge.
Natural-sounding dialog just seems to be a weakness for him, and lbr, the foxes like to hear themselves talk.
And I do really appreciate that he at least tries to provide male content, even if personally, all his dudes either refuse my PC or just leave me dry enough to strike a match on my pussy. Shit, that's the story of my love life IRL too, I'm not gonna hold a grudge.
Natural-sounding dialog just seems to be a weakness for him, and lbr, the foxes like to hear themselves talk.
In Japan, it is still legal to discriminate against foreigners. Restaurants can refuse to serve you for not being Japanese. The same applies for housing. There's a reason their country is 98.6% homogeneous and has a monoculture.
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Why are you telling me this shallow, nuance-free google cut-paste like I haven't lived here for 20 years and known hundreds of other foreign residents?
And how is it supposed to show the kitsune are accurate? Kohaku never throws me out when it's bakugai time. And I'm sure Kiyoko would be PC's guarantor if they tried to apply for a room in the den, even though Komari'll probably rant about barbarians pouring cooking oil in the drains and subtly pressure them to teach her granddaughters better Belharan pronunciation for free. then she goes through PC's trash, puts it back on their doorstep, and insists they re-sort it by burnability and write their name on the bags.
Shit, I'm giving myself flashbacks.
And yet the Kitsune will never accept the PC as one of them even when their own god makes them his champion and remakes them in his image. Because they are an outsider.
More like they're arrogant jerks with inflated egos and until you can get out of "Chump" mode when you interact with them this content gets the "biohazard, toxic" tag.
Honestly, I'd say that's a stretch. If anything, it'd best be described as furiously protecting their own culture. Think about all of the cultures lost to time, war and assimilation. It's all up for interpretation. You don't even have to like it, but they have a right to their own culture and it's up to them if they want to adapt to their circumstances.
Take Fallout's Brotherhood of Steel, for example. If you start at Fallout 1, you might think they're the good guys. However, once you find out that they're a techno-cult with a horrible xenophobic streak, you'll probably change your mind, despite the benefits of having a considerable force defending humanity's interests which pretty much also applies to Warhammer 40k, or SCP's UNGOC.
Sorry man, but it looks like nothing is going to change my mind about kitsunes in the current state of their content. I have chose a side in this war and intend to hold my ground as an anti-fluffinicist!
Remove da Fluff! Remove da Fluff! Remove da Fluff!
The otherside of that war is an all powerful witch that forcibly converts all males she sires or births to female, strips them of extra will, and ensures they are on hand so she can body-hop "Flemmeth Style", to prolong her own existence
And, in addition to eroding the will of the PC with every single sex scene, she sends the PC on a suicide mission (evergreen is 100% not aware of kiyoko's protection, should you have it) as disproportionate retribution in a constant back and forth between herself and Komari.
How so?
I'm okay with that, still patiently waiting for Evergreen's TF. She's a villain sure but mommy has very, very hot sex scenes and hugs.
Yes, that's one of the notable problems with the writing of the Kitsune mentioned before.
Everyone who opposes them has to be the most ridiculously exaggerated -BAD GUY- so these vampiric furry dickbags look better in comparison.
This is such glaringly poor behaviour as a writer, or indeed many scenes involving them that read less as natural events and instead more like the author using the characters as a mouthpiece to beat the audience about the head for disagreeing with them.
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I actually like this content because I find the portrayal fascinating and refreshing. Like Greyfox said, a lot of the time the racial tension is surface level and not really explored. I don't know. Maybe I like a little realism in my fantasy, call me weird. I also am a sucker for floofy girls.
I will say the one thing I don't like about the Kistune content is that it is a literal chaotic mess. There is no real timeline and everything is just tossed at you as soon as you step into their home a second time. It seriously needs a review and gates need to be added so there is at least SOME sequence to the order of events.
I will say the one thing I don't like about the Kistune content is that it is a literal chaotic mess. There is no real timeline and everything is just tossed at you as soon as you step into their home a second time. It seriously needs a review and gates need to be added so there is at least SOME sequence to the order of events.
It comes down to 2 things, the way I see it. It's both of these things taken together - they intermingle and can't really be separated.
1) The floofhaus storyline is written for one very specific roleplay for the Champ and does not account for anything else. We have no input, are permanently treated as an outsider no matter what, and our own wife and daughter are near-dismissive of us. They used us and we're dismissed as a curiosity at best and a pest normally. Kohaku feels more affectionate than the woman we married once she's out of the amulet. This would be fine in a serious, story driven RPG - as much as I think Tobs is a tool, he's a talented writer. But this is a porn game. A porn game, that's supposed to be about the player. The design document does say its never going to be a pure power fantasy, but this is too far in the other direction - a "weakness fantasy" where we can make no meaningful change or have no input. Our actions should AT LEAST have the floofs like and accept us.
2) Tobs cannot take criticism or feedback. There's only so much you can deflect by going "well you write something then!". He ignores any and all suggestions made to change the foxden, and has sometimes made things worse, or retconned stuff to the opposite of what the community wanted solely because the community asked for it. Again, talented writer, but some real diva energy going on here.
1) The floofhaus storyline is written for one very specific roleplay for the Champ and does not account for anything else. We have no input, are permanently treated as an outsider no matter what, and our own wife and daughter are near-dismissive of us. They used us and we're dismissed as a curiosity at best and a pest normally. Kohaku feels more affectionate than the woman we married once she's out of the amulet. This would be fine in a serious, story driven RPG - as much as I think Tobs is a tool, he's a talented writer. But this is a porn game. A porn game, that's supposed to be about the player. The design document does say its never going to be a pure power fantasy, but this is too far in the other direction - a "weakness fantasy" where we can make no meaningful change or have no input. Our actions should AT LEAST have the floofs like and accept us.
2) Tobs cannot take criticism or feedback. There's only so much you can deflect by going "well you write something then!". He ignores any and all suggestions made to change the foxden, and has sometimes made things worse, or retconned stuff to the opposite of what the community wanted solely because the community asked for it. Again, talented writer, but some real diva energy going on here.
i agree, but how is inari kinu dismissive of the player? she has what feels like a realistic level of independence for an adult child with a violent allergy to guidance
Inari Kinu is best Kinu. Only thing Hime has going for her is the fact you can stress Nakano the fuck out.
It still really amazes me that people keep saying "But they're based on the Japanese and they're all racists!" and...they're just fine with that. They don't seem to understand what that's saying and why it's horrible.
Firstly, no the Japanese are not all racists. Secondly EVEN IF THEY WERE the Japanese are not corruption of champions 2 kitsune. I've said this before but when the over whelming message is "You will NEVER belong" well...mission accomplished? I'm outta here then.
It's so odd that their god itself descends and tells you to change the way the kitsune culture interacts with the world and then I guess hand wave it all away as happening after the game's done at some point? I guess that's the plan at this point?
And ultimatly you're basing your fantasy race on a countries culture and all you take from it is some of the surface aesthetics and your own belief that they're all xenophobic nationalists? That's such a huge waste and so depressing.
Firstly, no the Japanese are not all racists. Secondly EVEN IF THEY WERE the Japanese are not corruption of champions 2 kitsune. I've said this before but when the over whelming message is "You will NEVER belong" well...mission accomplished? I'm outta here then.
It's so odd that their god itself descends and tells you to change the way the kitsune culture interacts with the world and then I guess hand wave it all away as happening after the game's done at some point? I guess that's the plan at this point?
And ultimatly you're basing your fantasy race on a countries culture and all you take from it is some of the surface aesthetics and your own belief that they're all xenophobic nationalists? That's such a huge waste and so depressing.
Look. I know we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, and you won't see this message because because I'm on your ignore list. That's fine. But that's demonstrably not what people are saying. Literally no one has accused all Japanese people of being racist in this thread. It's much more complicated and nuanced than that. No one has said "they're fine with it" either.
At most what's been said is that sometimes its ingrained in a culture who are to be considered outsiders and who are to be considered insiders and no matter what the positives or negatives of that culture is otherwise, its people are unlikely to ever fully accept people who fit in the outsider category. For a lot of people its just how they experience life.
I am personally defending the authors right to create a depiction of a society with hang-ups that make readers uncomfortable. Because this is not unrealistic for a setting with the worldbuilding standards this game has set up. This is how people alive in the world you live in experience cultures some people believe to be fully accepting. "It's a waste and its depressing". Yea. And that's still Tuesday for a lot of people. A Lot of people.
Much like the real-world its messy and doesn't leave anyone with clean feel good feelings at the end of the day.
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They can refuse to accept the Champ all they want, at the end of the day them floof ladies still willingly bounce on that dick. And that's what matters.
Personally I've never been TOO fussed over the Kitsune. I believe, based on the interactions with Kinu (Hime Kinu but I'm sure Inari Kinu is also sweet) and Kiyoko that they legitimately care for you and ultimately that's the most important thing if that's the focus through which you interact with the tree.
Sure, Nakano's a bit of an ass but that's both an outlier and funny to watch if you solo'd the tree. Aside from that who else is actually abrasive, Takahiro? He's also an ass but again, expected. I think there's various instances of kitsune brushing certain questions off as it being fine that we don't know all their etiquette or the particulars of cultural stuff but I don't take umbrage at that, it'd be tedious to explain. Like when there's multiple forks and knives laid out at a fancy table, unless you're in certain settings no one is going to tear you a new one for using them wrong unless you REALLY mess up, this is a backwater for the kitsune after all.
Most people take umbrage at the issue of Kinu's engagement not being mentioned to us, but combined with the PC not being there for years relative to them, and perhaps them thinking they were doing you a favor by not bothering you on your quest with an issue that you both couldn't change and wouldn't amount to anything any time soon anyway. Or some combination, or all of these things. Was this hurtful? Yeah but families accidentally hurt each other emotionally without meaning to often enough (it is however key that you believe this was done with good intentions/unknowingly otherwise it's pretty bad).
Sure, Nakano's a bit of an ass but that's both an outlier and funny to watch if you solo'd the tree. Aside from that who else is actually abrasive, Takahiro? He's also an ass but again, expected. I think there's various instances of kitsune brushing certain questions off as it being fine that we don't know all their etiquette or the particulars of cultural stuff but I don't take umbrage at that, it'd be tedious to explain. Like when there's multiple forks and knives laid out at a fancy table, unless you're in certain settings no one is going to tear you a new one for using them wrong unless you REALLY mess up, this is a backwater for the kitsune after all.
Most people take umbrage at the issue of Kinu's engagement not being mentioned to us, but combined with the PC not being there for years relative to them, and perhaps them thinking they were doing you a favor by not bothering you on your quest with an issue that you both couldn't change and wouldn't amount to anything any time soon anyway. Or some combination, or all of these things. Was this hurtful? Yeah but families accidentally hurt each other emotionally without meaning to often enough (it is however key that you believe this was done with good intentions/unknowingly otherwise it's pretty bad).
Been an observer of the game (pun not intended) for a bit and saw this thread and really wanted to say something, I do agree with a lot of the sentiments regarding the Foxes.
The lack of Player agency and PC agency is really bad and exacerbates other problems, as a writer for a game you can take one but not both and what makes it worst is that the PC we get in place of our own is a doormat of a Man/Woman.
Kitsunes feel like a poorly integrated DLC expansion
Personally I don't mind the xenophobia and racism of the Foxes but I hate the fact that we are made to accept it without any input as to what extent or how we interact with them. If I'm getting dissed at least allow me to clapback. A good example is when you get Miko pregs and the Granny throws a tantrum then claims the kids are a shame to the clan, at least allow my PC to say that they will take care of the kids, that they'll be able to teach them discipline and to not jump on the first cock they see; a not-so-subtle clapback but you get the point.
As for problems with TOBS, there's a nice list of problems IMO but here's 2:
The lack of Player agency and PC agency is really bad and exacerbates other problems, as a writer for a game you can take one but not both and what makes it worst is that the PC we get in place of our own is a doormat of a Man/Woman.
Kitsunes feel like a poorly integrated DLC expansion
Personally I don't mind the xenophobia and racism of the Foxes but I hate the fact that we are made to accept it without any input as to what extent or how we interact with them. If I'm getting dissed at least allow me to clapback. A good example is when you get Miko pregs and the Granny throws a tantrum then claims the kids are a shame to the clan, at least allow my PC to say that they will take care of the kids, that they'll be able to teach them discipline and to not jump on the first cock they see; a not-so-subtle clapback but you get the point.
As for problems with TOBS, there's a nice list of problems IMO but here's 2:
- Someone said that his scenes read like books but that's over selling it, they read like a highschooler's first crack on a personal project. "" are no where to be seen when the PC is having a conversation with another character and they're all in the 3rd person for some reason. Character thoughts, Dialogue and the Narrator are all in the same paragraph with no line breakers to indicate which are which. TOBS got good concepts but the execution is weak asf.
- Putting opinions and points of views in the PC's mouth just because we're interacting with a character, its something that Tobs alone isn't guilty of and in fact Wsan, B, Savin in certain instances do and I despise it. Example" I'm playing my Straight Pure boi who has never had it up the ass yet talking to the Druid Horsewoman has him drooling at the sight of her cock, TF man? Or when Smexy Herm Foxlady peronality gets turned into a bimbo when she bottoms but becomes a Chad when she tops.
Savin's Hana who's a dickgirl