Your gripes with CoC II

[Spidereggs]

A couple of mobile-related gripes - one, on mobile, the shop interface gets really small, with the price and quantity fields overlapping and adjusting the quantity taking some finesse, and two, in many situations powers have their description cut short, making it difficult to make educated decisions about them.

 

[Burnerbro]

Velun's a 'maybe' based on his being included in the wiki entry on perma-TFs (written by Tobs) but that's probably up in the air since I don't think they've settled on what Velun looks like now, so any TF is likely to be equally in flux and I don't think anyone on the team has talked about a Velun TF outside of that wiki page, unless it's on Discord somewhere.

The sacred TF we can get from the Nature Grandpa will sadly not be one for becoming a deer-like dryad, because of the devs policy of no extra limbs. But getting a more expansive biped dryad and/or treeman TF would be cool, especially since as a plot significant and permanently binding TF we should get some powers out of it. And if Wsan will tie some special interactions for the dryad sisters into it, no matter how minor, I'll be pretty much set.


This reminds me, tho. What is the fairies' place in the hierarchy of Savarra's immortal beings?

 

[Raginmund]

treeman TF

Taking over Savarra, one splinter at a time.

 

[mikethor007]

But getting a more expansive biped dryad and/or treeman TF would be cool

I am Groot?

 

[Burnerbro]

Or a beefier and more chill version of Elaril with bark skin.

 

[Savin]

Just a note re: Gothmander TF -- Nareva's sanctum and everything associated with it are sandbagged behind writing Tychris, the frostmander homeland, which will include the opportunity to bed and perhaps even marry the city-state's heiress. It's not gonna be just Nareva showing up on your doorstep offering you a bargain for your soul

 

[Sontalak]

Most of my gripes that don't have to do with "this content is incomplete" (due to still being in development) relate to the limiting nature of character origins.

If I wanted to play a character with +1 to each of the 3 main attributes for their class, in most cases it's possible. Emphasis on most. But that locks in certain appearances. For example, unless the wiki is wrong / outdated. It's possible to change lip color to Black or Dark Green with TF Items (Brute Beat, Wolvesboon and Lycanthorn for Black, Grottato for Dark Green, but not back to Peach if you started at one of the 3 races that start that way (Human, Wyld Elf or Catfolk). Making any such transformation permanent, even though most of the TF items appear to assume a human default face. (and the TF items for those 3 races are in the game, but they don't revert that transformation).

Perhaps a minor nitpick in the grand scheme, but it does exist. (A possible fix to this specific example is to simply add an alchemical "permanent" lipstick consumable that can be purchased to make your lip color whatever you choose until you apply a different one.)

Also, 3 attribute combinations are just outright impossible to start with. (Cunning being locked to Scholar, which Warrior and Thief can't access, hurts combinations involving Cunning)

Attribute Combinations (I might be missing a few, but I tried to be exhaustive) Parenthetical next to each combination is just what I call these builds. MOST builds involving toughness are unnamed, because I rarely "define" a build or character concept by toughness as a stat.

Spoiler: Combinations

STRENGTH + TOUGHNESS + AGILITY (Warrior Classic)- Orc, Thief, Soldier. Lupine, Warrior, Hunter. Catfolk, Warrior, Soldier.
STRENGTH + TOUGHNESS + CUNNING (Gladiator / Dirty Fighter)- Not possible to start with this combination.
STRENGTH + TOUGHNESS + WILLPOWER (Crusader / Battle Mage)- Wyld Elf, Warrior, Soldier.
STRENGTH + TOUGHNESS + PRESENCE (Barbarian Warlord)- Lupine, Warrior, Noble Scion. Human, Warrior, Soldier.

TOUGHNESS + AGILITY + CUNNING (Unnamed as yet)- Combination Impossible
TOUGHNESS + AGILITY + WILLPOWER (Unnamed as yet)- Wyld Elf, Warrior, Hunter. Orc, Black Mage, Hunter. Orc, White Mage. Hunter.
TOUGHNESS + AGILITY + PRESENCE (Unnamed as yet)- Human, Warrior, Hunter

AGILITY + CUNNING + WILLPOWER (Spell Thief)- Catfolk, White Mage, Scholar. Catfolk, Black Mage, Scholar.
AGILITY + CUNNING + PRESENCE (Charmer Classic)- Catfolk, Charmer, Scholar.
AGILITY + CUNNING + STRENGTH (Thief Classic)- Combination Impossible (wut? Thief has Cunning as a core stat, and no options to start with +1?)

CUNNING + WILLPOWER + PRESENCE (Black Mage Classic)- Human, Black Mage, Scholar. Human, White Mage, Scholar.
CUNNING + WILLPOWER + STRENGTH (Warmage)- Lupine, Black Mage, Scholar. Lupine, White Mage, Scholar.
CUNNING + WILLPOWER + TOUGHNESS (Unnamed as yet)- Orc, Black Mage, Scholar. Orc, White Mage, Scholar.

WILLPOWER + PRESENCE + STRENGTH (Paladin)- Lupine, Black Mage, Noble Scion. Lupine, White Mage, Noble Scion.
WILLPOWER + PRESENCE + TOUGHNESS (White Mage Classic)- Orc, Black Mage, Noble Scion. Orc, White Mage, Noble Scion.
WILLPOWER + PRESENCE + AGILITY (Bard)- Catfolk, Black Mage, Noble Scion. Catfolk, White Mage, Noble Scion. Wyld Elf, Charmer, Hunter. Human, Black Mage, Hunter. Human, White Mage, Hunter

PRESENCE + STRENGTH + AGILITY (Sword Dancer)- Lupine, Thief, Noble Scion. Human, Thief, Soldier.
PRESENCE + STRENGTH + CUNNING (Ranger)- Lupine, Charmer, Scholar.
PRESENCE + STRENGTH + WILLPOWER (Warlock)- Lupine, Black Mage, Scholar. Lupine, White Mage, Scholar.

And because I don't like griping / complaining without offering solutions. A possible solution here would be to allow the Noble Scion origin to pick its attibute? (It's also very strange to me that Thief is the only "Classic Class" with absolutely 0 ability to actually start with +1 to all its base stats.)

Edit- Forgot several Agility combinations (forgot Hunter is open to all classes)

 

[wery12345]

Well there goes my issue of gothmander TF, having a companion/NPC to get attached to helps make the whole "selling your soul to gain some actual fucking benefits to a TF and basically tying yourself to them in ways you couldnt before" a lot better, was worried goth mommy would be like "gibe soul gain the ability to suck off magic, i mean absorb".

 

[Savin]

Yeah, while Tychris won't be as extensive in terms on sheer content volume as the Kitsune Den is, it'll have the same sort of reactivity between the NPCs acknowledging you're an Astrida.

 

[Alypia]

(A possible fix to this specific example is to simply add an alchemical "permanent" lipstick consumable that can be purchased to make your lip color whatever you choose until you apply a different one.)

You're in luck! The stylists in Hawkethorne offer several shades of lipstick.

 

[Sontalak]

That helps 1 part of the issue. Now, can I play a "True Thief" without doubling up on a starting attribute? (I don't care for "gouge" builds. Preferring to spread things out in a more balanced manner)

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

It's not gonna be just Nareva showing up on your doorstep offering you a bargain for your soul

That does sound like something Nareva would do though. If she weren't trying to maintain that pseudo regality and wisdom look of hers at least.

Is Tychris going to be gated behind acts, and if so which acts, or is it gonna be available with a level requirement? "Sorry Champion of Hawkethorne, but you must be this swole to enter the city of hot salamander people."

 

[Alypia]

That helps 1 part of the issue. Now, can I play a "True Thief" without doubling up on a starting attribute? (I don't care for "gouge" builds. Preferring to spread things out in a more balanced manner)

You can respec your attribute points at any class trainer, and I believe that this includes the three points associated with character creation.

 

[WolframL]

That helps 1 part of the issue. Now, can I play a "True Thief" without doubling up on a starting attribute? (I don't care for "gouge" builds. Preferring to spread things out in a more balanced manner)

Per Tobs, the character creation system is designed to cover a reasonable range of distributions, not all cases. The Backgrounds assigned to the class tend to focus on Agility because that's really the stat you're expected to build them around. The game in general encourages you to focus on a couple of stats rather than trying to be a jack of all trades.

It's possible to give them a setup that provides a +1 to different stats but you're gonna have to pick a Solder, Courtesan or Noble Scion background (and a starting race that is neither Catfolk nor whatever covers the stat your Background does) and I assume that not doing that is what you mean by a 'true Thief'.

 

[Alypia]

Also, +1 in a given stat does not matter that much. The backgrounds are primarily for roleplay and reactivity, not stat distribution.

 

[Savin]

Is Tychris going to be gated behind acts, and if so which acts, or is it gonna be available with a level requirement? "Sorry Champion of Hawkethorne, but you must be this swole to enter the city of hot salamander people."

Tychris is going to be locked behind either Champion of Frost or Champion of Hawkethorne titles. Once you have one of those, the royal family will send for you.

 

[mikethor007]

Tychris is going to be locked behind either Champion of Frost or Champion of Hawkethorne titles. Once you have one of those, the royal family will send for you.

Which can come as early as before the end of act 1, yes?

 

[Sontalak]

Per Tobs, the character creation system is designed to cover a reasonable range of distributions, not all cases. The Backgrounds assigned to the class tend to focus on Agility because that's really the stat you're expected to build them around. The game in general encourages you to focus on a couple of stats rather than trying to be a jack of all trades.

It's possible to give them a setup that provides a +1 to different stats but you're gonna have to pick a Solder, Courtesan or Noble Scion background (and a starting race that is neither Catfolk nor whatever covers the stat your Background does) and I assume that not doing that is what you mean by a 'true Thief'.

The issue is that Thief lists its Primary Affinities as Strength, Cunning and Agility. The class itself is +1 Agility. But the class background selections provide 0 options to get a +1 to Cunning. It's therefore impossible to start with a "True Thief" in the same sense you can be a "True Warrior" (by starting with +1 Strength, Toughness and Agility) or "True Black Mage" (with +1 Willpower, Presence and Cunning) or any other class. Every other class can start with +1 in all 3 of its affinities (in the big list, represented as "[Class] Classic".

Thief is the only class in the entire game that lacks a background for one of its listed default affinities entirely. This seems especially odd to me given that Cunning is the stat I associate with thinking on your feet and the willingness to fight / play dirty. Picking locks is a matter of cunning, as shown in Dog Days. While picking pockets is equally a measure of both Agility and Cunning, as the same quest shows.

Given that 2 major thief functions rely on cunning, why exactly doesn't thief have an option open to them for a starting +1 to that stat? While it may not make much impact in the long run, I can't be a catburglar style breaking and entering thief from a roleplay perspective because the background that makes logical sense for such a thing (with +1 Cunning, again, the stat used for a Lock Pick check) doesn't exist.

 

[Forget Me Knot]

Tychris is going to be locked behind either Champion of Frost or Champion of Hawkethorne titles. Once you have one of those, the royal family will send for you.

Sounds exciting! Can we expect some royal hospitality?

 

[Lone Wolf115]

Sounds exciting! Can we expect some royal hospitality?

Probably after we do the classic hero thing and deal with the evil, or not for romancing Kas.

 

[WolframL]

Sounds exciting! Can we expect some royal hospitality?

Based on this post by Savin if by 'hospitality' you mean 'get up close and personal with a princess' backdoor' then yes, yes we can indeed expect some royal hospitality.

Also, Moira showed off art of the frostmander king a while back and since that includes nude art, it's reasonable to assume that some manner of hospitality will be in the offering there as well.

Which can come as early as before the end of act 1, yes?

The triggering condition to get the Champion of Hawkethorne title is to do the three big Act 1 quests (Right of Conquest, Harboring a Fugitive and the first part of In Her Footsteps via defeating the Alraune) so it seems like Tychris is somewhere we could visit in Act 1, once it's implemented.

The issue is that Thief lists its Primary Affinities as Strength, Cunning and Agility. The class itself is +1 Agility. But the class background selections provide 0 options to get a +1 to Cunning. It's therefore impossible to start with a "True Thief" in the same sense you can be a "True Warrior" (by starting with +1 Strength, Toughness and Agility) or "True Black Mage" (with +1 Willpower, Presence and Cunning) or any other class. Every other class can start with +1 in all 3 of its affinities (in the big list, represented as "[Class] Classic".

Ahh, that's what you meant. In which case I refer you to Tobs' post again since the system isn't designed to cover every possible spread of starting stats.

I can't be a catburglar style breaking and entering thief from a roleplay perspective because the background that makes logical sense for such a thing (with +1 Cunning, again, the stat used for a Lock Pick check) doesn't exist.

Slum Rat exists and is the obvious Background if you want to play a burglar, it even gets multiple [pc.bg] checks at various points in the game. That it gives +1 to Agility rather than Cunning is just what the devs decided on. I doubt they're gonna change that up now, though I suppose it's not impossible.

But yeah, if you want to style your Champ as a Locke Lamora or a Crocus Younghand for RP reasons, that's where you want to be looking.

 

[zagzig]

The issue is that Thief lists its Primary Affinities as Strength, Cunning and Agility. The class itself is +1 Agility. But the class background selections provide 0 options to get a +1 to Cunning. It's therefore impossible to start with a "True Thief" in the same sense you can be a "True Warrior" (by starting with +1 Strength, Toughness and Agility) or "True Black Mage" (with +1 Willpower, Presence and Cunning) or any other class. Every other class can start with +1 in all 3 of its affinities (in the big list, represented as "[Class] Classic".

Thief is the only class in the entire game that lacks a background for one of its listed default affinities entirely. This seems especially odd to me given that Cunning is the stat I associate with thinking on your feet and the willingness to fight / play dirty. Picking locks is a matter of cunning, as shown in Dog Days. While picking pockets is equally a measure of both Agility and Cunning, as the same quest shows.

Given that 2 major thief functions rely on cunning, why exactly doesn't thief have an option open to them for a starting +1 to that stat? While it may not make much impact in the long run, I can't be a catburglar style breaking and entering thief from a roleplay perspective because the background that makes logical sense for such a thing (with +1 Cunning, again, the stat used for a Lock Pick check) doesn't exist.

I didn't realise thieves didn't have an option to start with +1 to cunning, that's funny.

However, both the checks you mentioned are automatically passed if the character is a thief, so a thief with extra agility isn't disadvantaged by 'lock pick checks', nor are they less of a thief in practice. Another example is the Mage-Ship, where locks are passed by being the thief class, having one of the thief backgrounds, or not at all. So roleplaying a thief is covered with or without the +1 to cunning.

(Also it's just late in the game's development to be adding another thing to character creation. A new background means a bunch of new includes to write to catch it up to the other backgrounds, which isn't exactly high-priority work compared to all the other work.)

 

[Forget Me Knot]

Based on this post by Savin if by 'hospitality' you mean 'get up close and personal with a princess' backdoor' then yes, yes we can expect it.

Aww, I was so looking forward to a grand feast or, perhaps, a tour of the palace.

Hopefully, the princess is vag only!mc-friendly.

 

[Prent]

You can respec your attribute points at any class trainer, and I believe that this includes the three points associated with character creation.

It does not include those three points, much to my consternation.

 

[Sontalak]

Slum Rat exists and is the obvious Background if you want to play a burglar, it even gets multiple [pc.bg] checks at various points in the game. That it gives +1 to Agility rather than Cunning is just what the devs decided on. I doubt they're gonna change that up now, though I suppose it's not impossible.

But yeah, if you want to style your Champ as a Locke Lamora or a Crocus Younghand for RP reasons, that's where you want to be looking.

Slum rat is more "Aladdin", and I want something more akin to Phantom / Gentleman Thief. Arsene Lupin or Carmen Sandiego. There's not really an appropriate background for a thief that isn't noble but isn't gutter trash who decided to turn to thievery for the hell of it / thrill. Slum Rat is a pickpocket and a thug looking for their next meal. I want someone who sends calling cards and steals jewlery from the chambers of a noble woman, not for the money, but for the simple challenge of the thing and the thrill. (While you could argue "Noble Scion" and not be entirely wrong, I'll admit this, my min-maxer's mind can't stand the "waste" of a point in presence with no way to put it somewhere more useful to me mechanically. The character to my mind is neither Noble nor a Gutter Rat. Not a solider or a hunter. Simply a man of average birth looking for a thrill, and to make money on the side. Who sees the whole thing as a cat and mouse game, not a meal ticket.)

At this point however the conversation has become a sort of unproductive rabbit hole. I was merely expressing my gripe that the background to do the character I want doesn't exist with the capabilities I desire the character to have. I either have to take a stat in a place I don't want one, or take background that doesn't appeal to me. Both those options being unappealing (to me), is the source of the gripe.

I won't be continuing this conversation past this point, mostly because it's not productive however (I'm not going to change the minds of those that disagree at this point. And my own mind won't be changed). I'm just trying to explain my point of view on the matter, that the concept running in my head isn't workable with the tools presented to me (even though I feel it should be). While the core of the complaint is due to the "gamer brain" desire to min-max (hsss, wasted points in places I don't like. They burns us!), the "roleplay brain" also kind of agrees that it's weird to have a somewhat common character concept not be truly workable with the tools provided.

Aside: it's also a bit weird to me that Warrior is the only class with only 4 Backgrounds instead of 5. but that's just my desire for equilibrium speaking there)

 

[jwins]

Possible background solution and CoM spoilers

Spoiler

It's been established that the gods can fuck with peoples memories and our backgrounds are basically just that since we are probably not going to be interacting with the characters mentioned there. And as we can already change our race and class we might as well make it possible for the background. Just walk up to a god you mistrust the least and ask them to change your memories of your past to a different life.

 

[Burnerbro]

Being unable to start as a barbarian who turned to thievery (and more importantly to more cunning and dishonorable combat) was the one annoyance I had when creating my array of main characters, and with the class swap costing an arm and a leg, I had to edit that character's save.

 

[Kesil]

You're in luck! The stylists in Hawkethorne offer several shades of lipstick.

I don't know if I came across a bug, but I swear that the game treats lipstick and lip colour as different elements. If you get black lipstick and then use Soft Mud-Infused Cackle Berry, the Champion will get black lips.

 

[Animalistic]

I don't know if I came across a bug, but I swear that the game treats lipstick and lip colour as different elements. If you get black lipstick and then use Soft Mud-Infused Cackle Berry, the Champion will get black lips.

It could be that game does nit have seperate flags for lips and lipstic and it all just falls down on lips. So when you use lipstic, you activate the flag for lips. Than when you use a TF that changes lips, it overwrites it.

 

[Alypia]

I don't know if I came across a bug, but I swear that the game treats lipstick and lip colour as different elements. If you get black lipstick and then use Soft Mud-Infused Cackle Berry, the Champion will get black lips.

They're different things, yes, but lipstick applied will stay on until you remove or change it (even though some sex scenes already have Champ leaving prints on their partners~ no matter how many of those you do, the lipstick on your face won't wear off) and it will be reflected in the appearance screen.