Your gripes with CoC II

[Kingu2]

Okay, fair, you do need to do this as part of the story.

These are literally the only things relevant to the plot however, everything else is a sideshow. And frankly, Zetaz is basically a sideshow as well; He doesn't have a fraction the menace of the Nazgul (to use the LotR comparison already raised), you literally kick his ass effortlessly in a cutscene before the gameplay properly begins and and the 'threat' he poses basically consists of sitting on his ass and waiting for the Champ to come to him, just like Lethice. That's one of the biggest flaws in CoC1: There is very little active menace on the part of any of the 'major' antagonists. We only see a handful of demons while roaming the land; the closest active sign of the demon's continuing presence is that roaming band in the desert, while Ceraph and Vapula exist in their own little bubbles. CoC1 ran heavily on telling the player that the demons were doing all of this awful shit with very little showing you the threat they presented. Vapula's the closest the game has to that and again she's entirely confined to a bubble plot in a part of the game you're never required to visit.

CoC2 by contrast constantly reminds you that Kas is an active presence in the world. You can't get through two of the three starting zones without dealing with at least one thing that she has either just done before you arrived (the Alraune/the Hive) or is actively doing (Harvest Valley) and she's a very direct presence in the Winter City. We see what she's doing in KM even if that plotline isn't finished yet. Many of the sidequests likewise involve dealing with the direct consequences of Kas' actions and as the game progresses, you start encountering enemies like the Painted Demon(s), increasingly powerful imps and transformed cultists to remind you that not only are the demons a threat but they're actively getting more dangerous. The game never lets you forget that Kas is the villain that needs to be taken seriously and who is capable of showing up to do more things whenever she feels like it. She is proactive in a way that Lethice never is and her supposed demonic hordes rarely are.

Okay so now you're trying to obfuscate the point by focusing in on the main villian and switching from "the main questline doesn't have any of the story and narrative details that you mentioned in the optional content" too "the optional content doesn't have any of the story and narrative details that you mentioned in the main questline". Which is it wolf? You can't make both of these arguments simultaneously.

Yes, but most of those games (and CoC2) give you some in-universe reason for doing all of that side content. CoC1 gives the Champ no specific motivation to do anything past the Factory, outside the meta-logic of 'well, I'm playing a game, I guess I should see what will happen if I do this'. Finding the final two dungeons basically consists of the Champ bumbling across them, without any of the prompting that the Factory had.

first of all you have no specific motivation to do any side content in CoCII apart from someone coming up to you and saying "hey you mind going and getting this thing for me" or "hey have you checked out that area over there yet" and I will once again point out that having an NPC to tell you about optional content does not make it superior. Second of all while you aren't prompted to find Zetas' lair you are promted on where to find Lethices fortress by the map you find in his lair.

Brint/Brienne by virtue of their home being the current target for Kas' ambitions. Azzy's content may be plot-adjacent but you're at least compelled to interact with her on the way to advancing the plot. Quin is connected to the main plot because he was part of the cult that started this whole mess to begin with. Arona may be optional but the reason the Kervus are in the Frost Marches to begin with directly ties into Kasyrra's appearance.

Also, reminder: The companions interact with the main plot and side content constantly because they have all manner of dialogue and other interactions when you bring them. CoC1 characters (and most TiTs ones) exist in their own completely isolated bubbles at camp/in Tel'Arde/the ship/whatever planet they're on (choose as appropriate) and have no impact on the plot.

okay so you acknowledge that optional content is relevant to the story but only for companions. So none of the other NPCs matter to the story? none of them have thier lives impacted heavily by the events taking place? not a single person outside your companion group in any way ineracts with the people and world around them?

As I've tried to articulate, CoC1's story is a barely-there excuse plot to justify all of the extra Stuff.

Yes I know, and i'm trying to point out exactly why your arguement for that is terrible.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

I noticed shit gets heated here (whether serious or not), but I guess people covet their precious porn game which I understand heh

Precious porn? Please point me in the right direction, because I've noticed a severe lack of antler appreciation and or compliments in the content of this game.

Though yes, we do seem to get riled up fairly easily on here, but that's more a problem inherent to the internet in general. Can't even say something that remotely sounds like it disagrees with or contradicts someone else's views or what-have-you or else you're getting shouted at for daring to strike up a conversation in the first place.

I should have been more clear that that last part wasn't directed to you directly so much as it was to calkhi's claim that "CoC has a better story than CoCII even at comparative points of development". As I've tried to articulate, CoC1's story is a barely-there excuse plot to justify all of the extra Stuff.

You worded it much too poorly then if that is the case, likely due to your own irritation at the moment(this is not a dig at you or anything, it seems like both parties are fairly peeved in this discussion, and understandably so) if this right here it the message you truly intended to get across. Best to double check what's written before you post in situations like this, it can save you from accidentally annoying a whole heap of people you never meant to.

 

[morii]

Precious porn? Please point me in the right direction, because I've noticed a severe lack of antler appreciation and or compliments in the content of this game.

Antlers should attract mates, yes. Especially those big, towering ones.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

I have heard from people that distinctly do not like how the villain is so "in your face" all the time

To be fair, if I had a fudging elephant trunk horse cock shoved in my face I'd be pissed too.

Take away the option to sex Kas (or swap her and Tollus characters in the story), and the reaction to her showing up so often yet never getting her comeuppance will be very different for many players.

Well most people don't want to have sex with Tollus so, y'know.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Though yes, we do seem to get riled up fairly easily on here, but that's more a problem inherent in general thing. Can't even say something that remotely sounds like it disagrees with or contradicts someone else's views or what-have-you or else you're getting shouted at for daring to strike up a conversation in the first place.

While I'm unsure as to how true it was, this brings to mind that image talking about how some bible scholars were arguing about how the serpent moved before it crawled on its belly, ending with a guy flipping over a table and screaming "Satan is not a fucking pogo stick!"

 

[oracle of derpy]

Been looking for the horn thing from shark dungeon after conquering it, only to find that I needed specific circumstances to get it. So it's me locking myself out again from another npc or starting over the whole thing again

 

[AceofSpades]

Been looking for the horn thing from shark dungeon after conquering it, only to find that I needed specific circumstances to get it. So it's me locking myself out again from another npc or starting over the whole thing again

They actually changed it so that if you clear the dungeon, you have the horn. It's in your Key Items and not in your direct inventory though, so you don't have to actually carry it around. You just have it.

 

[AceofSpades]

To be fair, if I had a fudging elephant trunk horse cock shoved in my face I'd be pissed too.

 

[WolframL]

Okay so now you're trying to obfuscate the point by focusing in on the main villian and switching from "the main questline doesn't have any of the story and narrative details that you mentioned in the optional content" too "the optional content doesn't have any of the story and narrative details that you mentioned in the main questline". Which is it wolf? You can't make both of these arguments simultaneously.

The point I'm trying to make is integration. CoC1 has a bare-bones plot with virtually all of the worldbuilding found in isolated bubbles separate from the main story. The narrative gives the Champion no reason to interact with almost any of this content, nor any prompting towards its existence. Some of this is down to the way the game functions, but you literally stumble upon almost every event in the game via RNG rather than having the game lead you towads any of it in anything resembling a coherent fashion. I'll illustrate how this could be done better in a moment.

And the points I raised about seeing the impact of the demons on Mareth is all part of that. CoC1 runs heavily on the 'tell, don't show' model, which is how you're generally not supposed to tell a story because it's nowhere near as engaging. Again, see below.

first of all you have no specific motivation to do any side content in CoCII apart from someone coming up to you and saying "hey you mind going and getting this thing for me" or "hey have you checked out that area over there yet" and I will once again point out that having an NPC to tell you about optional content does not make it superior. Second of all while you aren't prompted to find Zetas' lair you are promted on where to find Lethices fortress by the map you find in his lair.

Here, let's use this as an example of why CoC1's storytelling is weak and how it could be improved in theory with a few little changes. As you acknowledge, you bumblefuck your way into finding Zetaz, with no motivation to do so, reason to even think he's there or reason to go exploring the cave you found. It's just 'Oh, I'm on an adventure, I guess I should go in there'. You mentioned Vala earlier, but she's someone we also don't know exists until we visit the dungeon. Now, suppose that instead of the way things play out, we encounter pre-corruption Vala first while exploring the woods and through an event or two we get to know her and hopefully care about her. Then after her last event and some number of in-game days, she vanishes. Now we have a mystery on our hands, and then the Champ could hear from another fairy that she was taken by the demons and they've seen this cave in the forests where she's probably being held. Now we have an in-character reason to go looking for the cave, the impact of finding Vala transformed will be much greater since we have a before and after, and we'll have one more reason to kick Zetaz' ass besides 'well, stinky demon'.

okay so you acknowledge that optional content is relevant to the story but only for companions. So none of the other NPCs matter to the story? none of them have thier lives impacted heavily by the events taking place? not a single person outside your companion group in any way ineracts with the people and world around them?

I have a hard time understanding how pointing out 'Companions interact with the story (in a way that followers/crewmates in CoC1 never or barely do)' is somehow equivalent to saying 'None of the other NPCs matter'. You're the one who asked whether any companions had relevance to the main plot.

 

[oracle of derpy]

They actually changed it so that if you clear the dungeon, you have the horn. It's in your Key Items and not in your direct inventory though, so you don't have to actually carry it around. You just have it.

Still don't have it. I'm playing the public browser version.

 

[Shrike675]

Still don't have it. I'm playing the public browser version.

You get it automatically if you've cleared the dungeon prior to that specific patch being brought out. There's a line you can put into the console (browser only, sorry steam and mobile players) that can force it into your inventory. Then, check your key items after moving a tile in any direction and sleep a day if you got it.

Hit ctrl + shift + i (or F12) and type this in the "console" portion of the screen that shows up
pc.createKeyItem(KEYITEMS.HornOfTides)

 

[Kingu2]

I'm going to copy and paste a bunch of these responses because I hate repeating myself

The point I'm trying to make is integration. CoC1 has a bare-bones plot with virtually all of the worldbuilding found in isolated bubbles separate from the main story. The narrative gives the Champion no reason to interact with almost any of this content, nor any prompting towards its existence. Some of this is down to the way the game functions, but you literally stumble upon almost every event in the game via RNG rather than having the game lead you towads any of it in anything resembling a coherent fashion. I'll illustrate how this could be done better in a moment.

And the points I raised about seeing the impact of the demons on Mareth is all part of that. CoC1 runs heavily on the 'tell, don't show' model, which is how you're generally not supposed to tell a story because it's nowhere near as engaging. Again, see below.

I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. If you think CoCII's story is better then more power to you, I'm not going to come in like a Jackass and tell you your opinion is wrong. But the idea that a story is bad or nonexistant or invalid because it's not told to you directly through the mainquestline (and I say this a a big soulsbourne fan) is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.

Here, let's use this as an example of why CoC1's storytelling is weak and how it could be improved in theory with a few little changes. As you acknowledge, you bumblefuck your way into finding Zetaz, with no motivation to do so, reason to even think he's there or reason to go exploring the cave you found. It's just 'Oh, I'm on an adventure, I guess I should go in there'. You mentioned Vala earlier, but she's someone we also don't know exists until we visit the dungeon. Now, suppose that instead of the way things play out, we encounter pre-corruption Vala first while exploring the woods and through an event or two we get to know her and hopefully care about her. Then after her last event and some number of in-game days, she vanishes. Now we have a mystery on our hands, and then the Champ could hear from another fairy that she was taken by the demons and they've seen this cave in the forests where she's probably being held. Now we have an in-character reason to go looking for the cave, the impact of finding Vala transformed will be much greater since we have a before and after, and we'll have one more reason to kick Zetaz' ass besides 'well, stinky demon'.

This is a very, very stupid arguement That I have seen before. It's dumb for the simple fact that good content is good no matter how you end up coming across it. There doesn't need to be an NPC to tell me to keep finding and fucking Helia to get her quest, or look for the location of the sand witches coven. I'll want to check them out because the content related to them is worth seeing. This encourages exploration and interaction with various NPC's and areas and staves off the fuck and forget attitude that I've personally fostered with many of CoCII's NPC's.

I have a hard time understanding how pointing out 'Companions interact with the story (in a way that followers/crewmates in CoC1 never or barely do)' is somehow equivalent to saying 'None of the other NPCs matter'. You're the one who asked whether any companions had relevance to the main plot.

You left off a lot of my questions which point to a gross misunderstanding of what consitutes a bubble character. It's not someone someone who's Irrelevant to the main quest which would comprise most of the characters in both games. It's someone who is completely detached from the world and everyone in it giving the impression that these charcters are just sitting in their rooms or at a table waiting silently for you to come and talk to them. Being main plot relevant does not break that bubble, nor does making second hand mention of their activities and interactions. What breaks the bubble is interactions with the world and other characters that happen independently of the players prompting and gives the impression that the character does in fact have a life outside of the player. Take Amily who can be found meditating with Jojo, Chatting with Izma, hanging out with Urta, hanging out with your kids. All of this contributes to the idea that she actually has a life and is not just sitting and waiting for you to come and say something to her. This is something many of the companions don't meet unfortunately, even in the context of interacting with the plot or other NPC's in most cases they only do so at the players prompting.

the other issue in which we seem to be talking past each other is that you seem to be conflating main quest, main plot, and story. When I say the word story I do mean every part of the story both optional and required content, all elements that provide world building and context not just main quest stuff.

 

[morii]

Okay, not really a gripe, it's just something I noticed.

I have to preface that I have a uterus. I cringe every time the game mentions a cock forcefully bumping against a cervix, especially if it's a sudden intrusion, which takes me out of the scene. I know a lot of the sex in this game isn't here to accommodate realism, and I understand that. Pornlogic. But deep penetrations, while they can feel amazing, have the risk of hurting the cervix if the vagina isn't well-prepared or if the intruding object repeatedly bumps--or slams--into the cervix.

Luckily, it's not common in the game and it varies by writer, but it's one of those things that make me wince when there is cervical shenanigans being mentioned.

 

[SomeNobody]

I have to preface that I have a uterus. I cringe every time the game mentions a cock forcefully bumping against a cervix, especially if it's a sudden intrusion, which takes me out of the scene. I know a lot of the sex in this game isn't here to accommodate realism, and I understand that. Pornlogic. But deep penetrations, while they can feel amazing, have the risk of hurting the cervix if the vagina isn't well-prepared or if the intruding object repeatedly bumps--or slams--into the cervix.

Too many writers getting their sex knowledge from reading hentai manga.

 

[Sacremas]

You gotta love the sex scenes in more extreme erotica and hentai where never mind cervix bumping, it's full on penetration and outright womb-fucking. Like, guy who wrote that, you do know that a close equivalent would be someone punching you in the balls on every thrust right? If you don't think you'd get off on that, err, maybe keep that stuff to the more horrible rape scenes and similar rather than indicating anyone got off on that.

Fortunately, other than vague mentions of oversized dicks bulging abdomens, for the most part scenes in the game don't go to that much detail and you can just figure it's alien/fantasy anatomy going on. Or even more amusing, Vaginas of Holding that they can probably use to carry their loot in as well as in the case of Kitsune.

 

[Kesil]

Womb/cervix hitting and outright penetration have been a peeve of mine for the longest time.

I understand it seems to be a popular kink, just like sizeplay is. Some people like creativity in their smut despite how things would turn out to be in real life. And said creativity can be very arbitrarily applied. Sadly, I am biased since realism plays a relatively big role for me and I fear the worst when large sizes which seem painful when inserted pop up, especially alongside the word "jackhammering". I want "my" erotica to seem enjoyable, not something that makes me wince. Their prevalence means hoping the characters in question have alternative smutty scenes. Like, Brint is a bro, but I'm not letting him get his stuff close to my main Champion's, and it's always frottage when the elf boy pops up.
It's a hard life when you are into dongs going balls deep but, judging by what I can muster, characters have the potential to house micro black holes within their bodies.

 

[Sacremas]

If you want to go realistic with extreme sizes, anal is actually a way better choice. Womb-fucking aside, if you want to go deeper than 7-8 inches or so on average, the pussy ain't the place to do it. In Brint's scenes, he'd basically penetrate the champ vaginally to somewhere around the median ring and no more, and if he wants to sheathe then the player had better be ready for some buttstretching exercises. Kas can still do whatever she wants, because she's a magical shapeshifter that can alter the Champ's body as suits her when not shapeshifting to be a perfect fit herself, but most other non-demons really should have some amount of logic applied, if anyone cared about realism. If they don't and Hentai level bulging stomachs are more the thing, then fine, but there's somewhat of a thematic difference there.

 

[Stzk619]

Okay, not really a gripe, it's just something I noticed.

I have to preface that I have a uterus. I cringe every time the game mentions a cock forcefully bumping against a cervix, especially if it's a sudden intrusion, which takes me out of the scene. I know a lot of the sex in this game isn't here to accommodate realism, and I understand that. Pornlogic. But deep penetrations, while they can feel amazing, have the risk of hurting the cervix if the vagina isn't well-prepared or if the intruding object repeatedly bumps--or slams--into the cervix.

Luckily, it's not common in the game and it varies by writer, but it's one of those things that make me wince when there is cervical shenanigans being mentioned.

I cannot express in mere words how relieved I am to finally hear someone say it. With caution and care, it’s hardly a bad thing, but a lack of tact can seriously be painful. I just wish that were better-known.

 

[cloer]

Honestly, it should be a no-brainer that stabbing something into any organ is probably going to be rather painful. Then again, a sense for reality and common sense is something that severely lacks in today's world.

That being said, the other side of the coin here would be suspension of disbelief. For the sake of the fantasy, I can accept that in this particular alternate reality of cum fountains, cow girls and fuck demons, things work a bit differently and evolution said "Fuck it (Hah!), if we're going with arm sized dicks we'll also have cervices (cervixes? cervicii?) that feel pleasure when penetrated and ballooned by gallons of cum to balance the books" and maybe everyone's skin and fleshy bits are just naturally more elastic.

How well someone can buy into that or project onto their own body even, is probably dependant on the individual consumer. Granted, men probably have an easier time imagining having two horse sized dicks and how it'd feel to cum stream instead of spurts than women can imagine penetration of the cervix and inflating the uterus being something that feels pleasuring instead of extremely painful. Simplified, the former is basically "It's like peeing but more pressure and constant orgasmic feeling" while the other is "This thing hurts and bleeds and makes me feel varying levels of discomfort once a month and you want me to imagine WHAT?"

So, yeah, different starting points for that between girls and boys.

...just like in so many other fields...

...huh...

 

[Rudra72]

This is more a gripe about my own dumbass rather than the game, but I finally turned on full manual combat after realizing the option actually existed, and oh my god combat makes so much more sense now


Full manual mode should be the default, because your companions have entire move sets they dont use on auto

 

[Acharehnus]

It's a shame because I like auto mode because it gives a stronger impression of your companions existance, it's more immersive.

 

[Rudra72]

It's a shame because I like auto mode because it gives a stronger impression of your companions existance, it's more immersive.

Eh, full companion control has always been a hallmark of party based RPGs. For example, Dragon Age Origins, the greatest RPG ever made.

If anything CoC2 could do with modular party gear control as well

 

[Acharehnus]

Eh, full companion control has always been a hallmark of party based RPGs. For example, Dragon Age Origins, the greatest RPG ever made.

If anything CoC2 could do with modular party gear control as well

I prefer newer RPG's that give some autonomy to your party members personally like DA inquisition, ff15(the road trip bits at least), but I do like outfitting my party. That'd be fun.

 

[zagzig]

Manual's a good option when you're stuck on a fight but using it for every battle is just too slow for me. When I'm facing down the Marked Mercs for the 200th time I leave it on Auto control and click next until the bad guys fall down.

 

[Shrike675]

And then you lost to the elf troupe

 

[zagzig]

And then you lost to the elf troupe

Taking the fight at level 1 was a stretch, and yet even then Fritte showed my champion a lovely time. 5/5, would recommend.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

I'm conflicted. On one hand I'm hoping the next Backer patch is BriHaus because I think we've waited long enough but OTOH am on holidays away from my main computer so it's out of my reach. Ah well.

 

[Greyfox643]

I'm conflicted. On one hand I'm hoping the next Backer patch is BriHaus because I think we've waited long enough but OTOH am on holidays away from my main computer so it's out of my reach. Ah well.

I 100% think we aren't going to get brihaus until Mayternity. Seems the perfect time to knock up a trio of cowgirls.

But, I too, wish to breed the Moo.

 

[WolframL]

I'm conflicted. On one hand I'm hoping the next Backer patch is BriHaus because I think we've waited long enough but OTOH am on holidays away from my main computer so it's out of my reach.

We know it's not, because Wsan said just a few days ago that there's still some content as part of the expansion that hasn't been written yet, though he's said it's 'very close'. Once it's written it still needs some review and coding so it's still going to be a while before it's actually implementation-ready. We're much closer to getting a different project he's been working on but not really described in detail involving Evelyn; he said it was probably two patches away shortly before the last one dropped so the next backer update (or maybe the one after) will likely have it.

Full manual mode should be the default, because your companions have entire move sets they dont use on auto

The reason companions don't use Ultimates (outside of Devotion) when computer-controlled is that there's no good way for the computer to know the best time to use those once-per-sleep-cycle abilities, and you really don't want to blow those on some trash mobs in a dungeon when there's no way to recharge it before a boss.

IIRC the reason Auto is the default is basically because companion control was added later. You can change it from the settings menu at any time, but like zag already said when you're dealing with repetitive mobs it's generally much faster to let the computer do its thing.

If anything CoC2 could do with modular party gear control as well

Companion gear sets are their equipment control, it's just opaque what stats their equipment has without digging into console commands but they do change to an extent.

 

[Shrike675]

The reason companions don't use Ultimates (outside of Devotion) when computer-controlled is that there's no good way for the computer to know the best time to use those once-per-sleep-cycle abilities, and you really don't want to blow those on some trash mobs in a dungeon when there's no way to recharge it before a boss.

Boy am I sure glad Gweyr blew unbreakable on the first trash mob in the abyss dungeon. That was smart of her