Your gripes with CoC II
- Thread starter Narmlet
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And this right here is a point to be made, which was a part of what my gripe was pointing at. Why wasn't the battle reworked to have substantial increases in enemy strength after the rework? This was a valid solution to my gripe, as one of the things I pointed out was and I quote myself "There are a lot of battles that are, by design, meant to make the character feel less like a hero, and more like a pawn between the powers that, if encountered by a character of a level that it was meant for works, but when a character has exceeded a certain level, or obtained a certain level of cheese for their class, rapidly becomes boring and droll." This was literally me pointing out that the battles need a rework to bring them back in line with the narrative. Or, if that's never going to happen, at least have an upper enemy cap and just hand the player a win for the time being.
Yeah, but I did that the last three times now. I wanted to try the other path.
Don't double post, you could have put all three replies in one.
The closest CoC got to handling logistics is the existence of the Bizarre Bizaar acting sorta as a corrupt city. CoC's story was practically non-existent, since all that there really was was a load of loosely connected characters and stories. As for cultist raids, they did quite a lot down south in the Harvest valley, the area where all the farms are. While other places weren't mentioned, they've been doing things all the time, just not everywhere.
You do win. You just have to press the "I'm ready to leave" button.
Don't be obtuse. Discussion of their supply lines does come up in the next parts of the quest. Tollus is still working with Kas, he's just a manipulative fuck who's also clearly playing his own game with this little side project. This is all spelled out explicitly in the notes that you obtain from Tollus in the quest you are required to do before Winter Wolf can proc, the one involving the cult making trouble down in Harvest Valley at Kas' direction.
You must be taking the piss at this point. CoC1's main story can be summed up as 'You are a Champion from Isekai Village, you get sent through a portal to fight the demons (but you're really a sacrifice), you kick their asses in two disjointed quests before kicking their leader's ass in a final one, and that's the first time Lethice even learns that you exist'. There is no main plot beyond that and even that much is incredibly incoherent. The writing provides basically no motivations for the Champ to do anything once your immediate safety is taken care of and even the main plot largely exists in a bubble that you can completely ignore once you finish the first dungeon. Everything else that forms most of the game's content is layered on top of that in a hodgepodge fashion and is bubble-waifu-tastic. If you seriously think that's better writing than CoC2 then either you have incomprehensibly low standards for what constitutes a coherent narrative or you need to get your rose-tinted glasses checked.
Because the endlessly spawning cultists are the same enemies you'll encounter elsewhere in the Rift and making them tougher for one battle would require either coding in a special 'quest-only' set or rebalancing all their encounters? Because reworking a battle that you are explicitly not meant to win by force of arms isn't anything even resembling a priority?
Well now who's being obtuse. The story of CoC isn't told through the main questline it's told through the various people you meet throughout the world. Amily and Jojo give a glimps into what the world was like before the demons. Factions like the the sand witches and the harpy queen show how the denizens are pushing back against the demons despite the odds against them. Stories like Benoit's, Urta's and Arian show just what kind of hell wrought for the people of Mareth both directly and indirectly. Minerva who was a previous Champion who had a really bad time after she got sent through the portal. Their are a ton of examples of people all throughout CoC giving context and a narrative to the story and provides more the enough motivation for the main character for whatever they choose to do.
CoC has a mountain of interconnected relationships that do a much better job pf displaying those than CoCII. Like Urta/Endryn, Urta/Kath, Urta/Amily, Amily/Izma, Amily/Marble, Helia/Izma, Helia/Kiha, Marble/Whitney, Amily/Jojo and KidA/Goblin horde, just to name a few. Neither TiTS nor CoCII has had more interconnected characters than CoC.
CasualAntlerEnjoyer
Well-Known Member
Fleeing the battlefield is never the answer.
Now please ignore the fact that I go into 90% of combat encounters already mashing the RUN button.
Virtually all of whom are optional (and to an extent randomized) encounters that you have to seek out. The only things that you are required to do by the game develop precisely none of the details that you raise. Meanwhile CoC2 provides you with a great deal of worldbuilding, evidence for what Kasyrra is doing and why you want to stop it during the main quest, since you can see the impact that her corruption has on Hawkethorne's regional safety as a consequence of moving to the next plot location, you see what she does to the Winter City in the conclusion of Act I and you can see what's starting to happen in KM in Act II so far. Also, we have the whole 'Kas wants your soul so you'd better do something about that' thing to personally motivate the Champ.
Meanwhile it's entirely possible to just not go to Tel'Adre outside the first time it decides to proc in your aimless exploration and no motivation is given to the Champ to go there beyond the player thinking 'Oh, I should check out what's there'. Yes, a lot of things happen there and a lot of development happens in that way but it's all a massive set of sometimes-linked bubbles that are completely independent of the plot. For all that a lot of content in CoC2 is similarly optional, it at least puts you in the location where much of the optional content springs from as your main hub, and from there tells you about important optional content when Garth or Sanders approach you to mention things like Fort Marrok or the valkyries up north. Or it puts important things on tiles that you have to pass through to progress the story, like Azzy and by extension the entire Hive plot thread.
I fail to see how anyone can argue with a straight face that CoC1's story is better than CoC2's when the former game barely has a story; it's practically the definition of an Excuse Plot.
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Diffuse vs linear storytelling and worldbuilding are both equally valid, used differently in a ton of different novels and similar. Some people prefer one over the other, doesn't make the other by default worse. Take Lord of the Rings, Sauron has not much more impact on that story overall than Lethice does for COC1, for the most part, he's just there and caused a lot of stuff the heroes have to deal with "or else." It's not the best analogy and I'm sure someone can poke holes in it if they tried fairly easily, but should hopefully illustrate my point.
I have heard from people that distinctly do not like how the villain is so "in your face" all the time, since it leads to the main character feeling somewhat impotent and helpless, presuming they don't want to prove their "potency" otherwise with her that is. And there is validity to that view as well. Take away the option to sex Kas (or swap her and Tollus characters in the story), and the reaction to her showing up so often yet never getting her comeuppance will be very different for many players.
I have heard from people that distinctly do not like how the villain is so "in your face" all the time, since it leads to the main character feeling somewhat impotent and helpless, presuming they don't want to prove their "potency" otherwise with her that is. And there is validity to that view as well. Take away the option to sex Kas (or swap her and Tollus characters in the story), and the reaction to her showing up so often yet never getting her comeuppance will be very different for many players.
You are required to go and talk to Marea the worlds Godess who will tell exactly how the world came to be in the state that it's in and the effects it has had on the lands. You are required to go to the factory where you learn the fate of all previous champions and that you were suposed to join them, and that they are being used to pump out corruptive fluids into the lake to snuff out any remianing purity in the land and you decide whether to stop it, let continue, or make things much worse. You are required to go to Zetas' dungeon where you learn he's been ousted for has failure to capture you and is building up an army with his fuckslave vala to try to usurp Lethice. And you'll go and pretend like none of this relevant to the games story because of course you are.
But setting all that aside, who the hell is actually going to play either of these games like that? Have you ever played a RPG doing ONLY what's required for the mainquestline? You know as well as I do you're missing like 90% of the game by doing that.
That's just silly. To think that plot relevance has anything to do with being in a bubble. On that note who besides Cait breifly at the begining and ethryn at the WC have any relevance to the main plot?
This is of course where you realized most of CoCII's content is also optional and try to argue that because it puts some NPC's in your path to tell you about the content that somehow makes the content superior. This is a very, very stupid arguement That I have seen before. It's dumb for the simple fact that good content is good no matter how you end up coming across it. There doesn't need to be an NPC to tell me to keep finding and fucking Helia to get her quest, or look for the location of the sand witches coven. I'll want to check them out because the content related to them is worth seeing. This encourages exploration and interaction with various NPC's and areas and staves off the fuck and forget attitude that I've personally fostered with many of CoCII's NPC's.
I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. If you think CoCII's story is better then more power to you, I'm not going to come in like a Jackass and tell you your opinion is wrong. But the idea that a story is bad or nonexistant or invalid because it's not told to you directly through the mainquestline (and I say this a a big soulsbourne fan) is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.
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No, coc1s story is shit, there is literally nothing explained and I'm pretty sure they fuckin shit the ending out to simply have a ending.
CasualAntlerEnjoyer
Well-Known Member
Oh they fuck a lot in COC1, I can assure you.
I think that Sauron is a better match for Kas than he is for Lethice, personally. The reason that Sauron is a passive antagonist is spelled out very early and is directly linked to the plot: We have the ring he needs to become not-passive, he knows we have it and therefore he will keep sending his proxies at us until he either retrieves it (Bad) or we destroy it (Good). All of the 'stuff' that the Fellowship deals with along the way is either Sauron attempting to get the Ring or the heroes thwarting his attempts or distracting him so Frodo and Sam can get the Ring to Mt. Doom. Replace 'the Ring' with 'the Champ's soul' and you have CoC2 except that Kas is also an active antagonist who directly advances her own plans as well as delegating them to subordinates. And like Sauron and the Ring, the fact that Kas wants the Champ's soul provides a very direct motivation to oppose her.
Okay, fair, you do need to do this as part of the story.
These are literally the only things relevant to the plot however, everything else is a sideshow. And frankly, Zetaz is basically a sideshow as well; He doesn't have a fraction the menace of the Nazgul (to use the LotR comparison already raised), you literally kick his ass effortlessly in a cutscene before the gameplay properly begins and and the 'threat' he poses basically consists of sitting on his ass and waiting for the Champ to come to him, just like Lethice. That's one of the biggest flaws in CoC1: There is very little active menace on the part of any of the 'major' antagonists. We only see a handful of demons while roaming the land; the closest active sign of the demon's continuing presence is that roaming band in the desert, while Ceraph and Vapula exist in their own little bubbles. CoC1 ran heavily on telling the player that the demons were doing all of this awful shit with very little showing you the threat they presented. Vapula's the closest the game has to that and again she's entirely confined to a bubble plot in a part of the game you're never required to visit.
CoC2 by contrast constantly reminds you that Kas is an active presence in the world. You can't get through two of the three starting zones without dealing with at least one thing that she has either just done before you arrived (the Alraune/the Hive) or is actively doing (Harvest Valley) and she's a very direct presence in the Winter City. We see what she's doing in KM even if that plotline isn't finished yet. Many of the sidequests likewise involve dealing with the direct consequences of Kas' actions and as the game progresses, you start encountering enemies like the Painted Demon(s), increasingly powerful imps and transformed cultists to remind you that not only are the demons a threat but they're actively getting more dangerous. The game never lets you forget that Kas is the villain that needs to be taken seriously and who is capable of showing up to do more things whenever she feels like it. She is proactive in a way that Lethice never is and her supposed demonic hordes rarely are.
Yes, but most of those games (and CoC2) give you some in-universe reason for doing all of that side content. CoC1 gives the Champ no specific motivation to do anything past the Factory, outside the meta-logic of 'well, I'm playing a game, I guess I should see what will happen if I do this'. Finding the final two dungeons basically consists of the Champ bumbling across them, without any of the prompting that the Factory had.
Brint/Brienne by virtue of their home being the current target for Kas' ambitions. Azzy's content may be plot-adjacent but you're at least compelled to interact with her on the way to advancing the plot. Quin is connected to the main plot because he was part of the cult that started this whole mess to begin with. Arona may be optional but the reason the Kervus are in the Frost Marches to begin with directly ties into Kasyrra's appearance.
Also, reminder: The companions interact with the main plot and side content constantly because they have all manner of dialogue and other interactions when you bring them. CoC1 characters (and most TiTs ones) exist in their own completely isolated bubbles at camp/in Tel'Arde/the ship/whatever planet they're on (choose as appropriate) and have no impact on the plot.
I should have been more clear that that last part wasn't directed to you directly so much as it was to calkhi's claim that "CoC has a better story than CoCII even at comparative points of development". As I've tried to articulate, CoC1's story is a barely-there excuse plot to justify all of the extra Stuff.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe some writers don't really care to hear what people have to say about their work unless it's a major glaring issue. There's a lot of nitpicking going around which is fine, but writers don't have to frequent the forum if they don't want to. And I think wsan left a while ago??
Hey, thank you Bubble for replying to me. I'm sorry if I said anything negative about Quin, I always try to be constructive and civil--but I do appreciate your characters and contributions to this game. And the relationship system is really promising since I'm always for stuff like that. I don't really care about feminizing him, but turning him into an evil bastard KOTOR2 style would be pretty fun for my corrupted saves.
I'm curious about Leofric, not sure what to expect but I'm here for it all the same.
I noticed shit gets heated here (whether serious or not), but I guess people covet their precious porn game which I understand heh
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Okay so now you're trying to obfuscate the point by focusing in on the main villian and switching from "the main questline doesn't have any of the story and narrative details that you mentioned in the optional content" too "the optional content doesn't have any of the story and narrative details that you mentioned in the main questline". Which is it wolf? You can't make both of these arguments simultaneously.
first of all you have no specific motivation to do any side content in CoCII apart from someone coming up to you and saying "hey you mind going and getting this thing for me" or "hey have you checked out that area over there yet" and I will once again point out that having an NPC to tell you about optional content does not make it superior. Second of all while you aren't prompted to find Zetas' lair you are promted on where to find Lethices fortress by the map you find in his lair.
okay so you acknowledge that optional content is relevant to the story but only for companions. So none of the other NPCs matter to the story? none of them have thier lives impacted heavily by the events taking place? not a single person outside your companion group in any way ineracts with the people and world around them?
Yes I know, and i'm trying to point out exactly why your arguement for that is terrible.
CasualAntlerEnjoyer
Well-Known Member
Precious porn? Please point me in the right direction, because I've noticed a severe lack of antler appreciation and or compliments in the content of this game.
Though yes, we do seem to get riled up fairly easily on here, but that's more a problem inherent to the internet in general. Can't even say something that remotely sounds like it disagrees with or contradicts someone else's views or what-have-you or else you're getting shouted at for daring to strike up a conversation in the first place.
You worded it much too poorly then if that is the case, likely due to your own irritation at the moment(this is not a dig at you or anything, it seems like both parties are fairly peeved in this discussion, and understandably so) if this right here it the message you truly intended to get across. Best to double check what's written before you post in situations like this, it can save you from accidentally annoying a whole heap of people you never meant to.
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Antlers should attract mates, yes. Especially those big, towering ones.
To be fair, if I had a fudging elephant trunk horse cock shoved in my face I'd be pissed too.
Well most people don't want to have sex with Tollus so, y'know.
While I'm unsure as to how true it was, this brings to mind that image talking about how some bible scholars were arguing about how the serpent moved before it crawled on its belly, ending with a guy flipping over a table and screaming "Satan is not a fucking pogo stick!"
Been looking for the horn thing from shark dungeon after conquering it, only to find that I needed specific circumstances to get it. So it's me locking myself out again from another npc or starting over the whole thing again
They actually changed it so that if you clear the dungeon, you have the horn. It's in your Key Items and not in your direct inventory though, so you don't have to actually carry it around. You just have it.
The point I'm trying to make is integration. CoC1 has a bare-bones plot with virtually all of the worldbuilding found in isolated bubbles separate from the main story. The narrative gives the Champion no reason to interact with almost any of this content, nor any prompting towards its existence. Some of this is down to the way the game functions, but you literally stumble upon almost every event in the game via RNG rather than having the game lead you towads any of it in anything resembling a coherent fashion. I'll illustrate how this could be done better in a moment.
And the points I raised about seeing the impact of the demons on Mareth is all part of that. CoC1 runs heavily on the 'tell, don't show' model, which is how you're generally not supposed to tell a story because it's nowhere near as engaging. Again, see below.
Here, let's use this as an example of why CoC1's storytelling is weak and how it could be improved in theory with a few little changes. As you acknowledge, you bumblefuck your way into finding Zetaz, with no motivation to do so, reason to even think he's there or reason to go exploring the cave you found. It's just 'Oh, I'm on an adventure, I guess I should go in there'. You mentioned Vala earlier, but she's someone we also don't know exists until we visit the dungeon. Now, suppose that instead of the way things play out, we encounter pre-corruption Vala first while exploring the woods and through an event or two we get to know her and hopefully care about her. Then after her last event and some number of in-game days, she vanishes. Now we have a mystery on our hands, and then the Champ could hear from another fairy that she was taken by the demons and they've seen this cave in the forests where she's probably being held. Now we have an in-character reason to go looking for the cave, the impact of finding Vala transformed will be much greater since we have a before and after, and we'll have one more reason to kick Zetaz' ass besides 'well, stinky demon'.
I have a hard time understanding how pointing out 'Companions interact with the story (in a way that followers/crewmates in CoC1 never or barely do)' is somehow equivalent to saying 'None of the other NPCs matter'. You're the one who asked whether any companions had relevance to the main plot.
You get it automatically if you've cleared the dungeon prior to that specific patch being brought out. There's a line you can put into the console (browser only, sorry steam and mobile players) that can force it into your inventory. Then, check your key items after moving a tile in any direction and sleep a day if you got it.
Hit ctrl + shift + i (or F12) and type this in the "console" portion of the screen that shows up
pc.createKeyItem(KEYITEMS.HornOfTides)
I'm going to copy and paste a bunch of these responses because I hate repeating myself
the other issue in which we seem to be talking past each other is that you seem to be conflating main quest, main plot, and story. When I say the word story I do mean every part of the story both optional and required content, all elements that provide world building and context not just main quest stuff.
I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. If you think CoCII's story is better then more power to you, I'm not going to come in like a Jackass and tell you your opinion is wrong. But the idea that a story is bad or nonexistant or invalid because it's not told to you directly through the mainquestline (and I say this a a big soulsbourne fan) is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.
This is a very, very stupid arguement That I have seen before. It's dumb for the simple fact that good content is good no matter how you end up coming across it. There doesn't need to be an NPC to tell me to keep finding and fucking Helia to get her quest, or look for the location of the sand witches coven. I'll want to check them out because the content related to them is worth seeing. This encourages exploration and interaction with various NPC's and areas and staves off the fuck and forget attitude that I've personally fostered with many of CoCII's NPC's.
You left off a lot of my questions which point to a gross misunderstanding of what consitutes a bubble character. It's not someone someone who's Irrelevant to the main quest which would comprise most of the characters in both games. It's someone who is completely detached from the world and everyone in it giving the impression that these charcters are just sitting in their rooms or at a table waiting silently for you to come and talk to them. Being main plot relevant does not break that bubble, nor does making second hand mention of their activities and interactions. What breaks the bubble is interactions with the world and other characters that happen independently of the players prompting and gives the impression that the character does in fact have a life outside of the player. Take Amily who can be found meditating with Jojo, Chatting with Izma, hanging out with Urta, hanging out with your kids. All of this contributes to the idea that she actually has a life and is not just sitting and waiting for you to come and say something to her. This is something many of the companions don't meet unfortunately, even in the context of interacting with the plot or other NPC's in most cases they only do so at the players prompting.
the other issue in which we seem to be talking past each other is that you seem to be conflating main quest, main plot, and story. When I say the word story I do mean every part of the story both optional and required content, all elements that provide world building and context not just main quest stuff.
Okay, not really a gripe, it's just something I noticed.
I have to preface that I have a uterus. I cringe every time the game mentions a cock forcefully bumping against a cervix, especially if it's a sudden intrusion, which takes me out of the scene. I know a lot of the sex in this game isn't here to accommodate realism, and I understand that. Pornlogic. But deep penetrations, while they can feel amazing, have the risk of hurting the cervix if the vagina isn't well-prepared or if the intruding object repeatedly bumps--or slams--into the cervix.
Luckily, it's not common in the game and it varies by writer, but it's one of those things that make me wince when there is cervical shenanigans being mentioned.
I have to preface that I have a uterus. I cringe every time the game mentions a cock forcefully bumping against a cervix, especially if it's a sudden intrusion, which takes me out of the scene. I know a lot of the sex in this game isn't here to accommodate realism, and I understand that. Pornlogic. But deep penetrations, while they can feel amazing, have the risk of hurting the cervix if the vagina isn't well-prepared or if the intruding object repeatedly bumps--or slams--into the cervix.
Luckily, it's not common in the game and it varies by writer, but it's one of those things that make me wince when there is cervical shenanigans being mentioned.
Too many writers getting their sex knowledge from reading hentai manga.
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