Your gripes with CoC II

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luciel1331

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Oct 20, 2021
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Ah yes, here comes a "deep review" of Quin, citing these two things as his entire character. That tells me you have NOT actually played his content. Or you must surely think every other character that has content of turbo horny (Arona) or rapey vibes (weird might be Arona too here TBH) is solely defined by it.

Remember that part where Arona is one of the only companions willing to kill in your name? No real moral qualm on that?

Get back to me when you guys who always cite these outlandish takes actually take up a problem with the other characters that equally do it and do so at a large/impressive scale. You won't, though, because you only see the male character doing it and not the others.
???? I'm not even talking about Quin in that reply post but rather responding to foreverlurker saying, "Most things in this are heavily sexualized it is a porn game why play it otherwise no offense." And wasn't even mentioning Quin that he was those type of characters

And in my previous post in this same page to morii that:
I mean I also like Quin but I also still find his sleaziness and heavy sexualization of women off-putting. But at least even the most horny characters like Cait and Arona comments about something other than wanting to fuck them while Quin when it comes to women or any feminine characters like Berwyn only ever talks about how much he wants to fuck them.

I never thought of him as rapey asshole since I find major npcs like evergreen creepy and companions&other npcs like Arona and their rapey selves and the asshole behavior just as dislikable.

But I guess he gets picked on a lot just bc he doesn't fit into what most ppl that plays this game are into since he's a guy and all. Also considering he's also a companion, a major npc. And at least Arona has gotten better with her expansion.

As I mentioned before though Quin just needs content and redemption arc in general but there are plenty of discussion that pops into this forum time to time about him. While not every comment of him are justified I do feel like there's also plenty comments by ppl who dislike Quin has been reasonable as well though.

His newest armor expansion is definite step in right direction though. Hope with more of his content ppl find him more acceptable.
I literally used Arona as an example of horrible shit she does and so does other npcs does. I also said I never saw him as rapey asshole.

I understand that you're angry or tired that ppl constantly shot on Quin but I never claimed some of that stuff you have said and even said there are plenty characters who do worse. And he gets shit on just because he's a guy. I know you don't feel like reading every posts but this post was on this same thread page right now.
 
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Reading comprehension questioned as you don't understand my rebuttle. You can't even realize who you're replying to. It's always funny to me how that's the defense of this group of Quin haters: "Well I like him though, here's just me ragging on him for a few pages NBD."
There was not for much for me to comprehend there because I both barely read the initial post as I have little ambient interest in discussing this character at all and just have an issue with people saying illogical shit(whether someone likes or dislikes a character is their choice, I couldn't care less), and as I've said to someone else on here I have a bloody neurological fuckup that makes it extremely difficult for me to retain names, so I wasn't going to recognize another jumble of letters off of a profile pic when I've never seen you post prior.

But no, go on and be a cunt about this when I was nothing but cordial aside from the use of the word 'asshole' in relation to the character's personality specifically, you wonderful person you. Really getting me in the mood to even consider anything you're going to prattle about now.

Not even going to bother continuing this conversation if you're going to act like this just because your original character is getting seen not in the bizarre, asinine way you had dreamed them up before writing them out, this is the kind of emotional response I expect from some youngster joining an RP forum for the first time and getting their character criticized in literally any way.
???? I'm not even talking about Quin in that reply post but rather responding to foreverlurker saying, "Most things in this are heavily sexualized it is a porn game why play it otherwise no offense." And wasn't even mentioning Quin in that case.
You're better off not even engaging with them, they're riding the spite waves now and I do not know them well enough to even begin to make an estimation on when it would be safe to attempt conversation without the presence of extreme emotional bias. As they are now, it'd be like trying to make conversation with a screaming toddler, grating on the nerves, extremely unfulfilling and ultimately futile.
 
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BubbleLord

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There was not for much for me to comprehend there because I both barely read the initial post as I have little ambient interest in discussing this character at all and just have an issue with people saying illogical shit(whether someone likes or dislikes a character is their choice, I couldn't care less), and as I've said to someone else on here I have a bloody neurological fuckup that makes it extremely difficult for me to retain names, so I wasn't going to recognize another jumble of letters off of a profile pic when I've never seen you post prior.

But no, go on and be a cunt about this when I was nothing but cordial aside from the use of the word 'asshole' in relation to the character's personality specifically, you wonderful person you. Really getting me in the mood to even consider anything you're going to prattle about now.

Not even going to bother continuing this conversation if you're going to act like this just because your original character is getting seen not in the bizarre, asinine way you had dreamed them up before writing them out, this is the kind of emotional response I expect from some youngster joining an RP forum for the first time and getting their character criticized in literally any way.

You're better off not even engaging with them, they're riding the spite waves now and I do not know them well enough to even begin to make an estimation on when it would be safe to attempt conversation without the presence of extreme emotional bias. As they are now, it'd be like trying to make conversation with a screaming toddler, grating on the nerves, extremely unfulfilling and ultimately futile.
I like where you try to deride me for how I act after you've spent pages ragging a character while saying you like it, hate it, and then telling lies about it. And then you try to flip out and act like my defense of my character against your opinions is too much... without knowing who you're even talking to. You just click-and-type. Zero thought.

You then go on to act like some morally superior person while insulting me right back in turn. Your false intellect boner must feel huge trying to "get me". It's pathetic watching you try to big brain play and moral highground me as reacting this way because you don't see him the way I want you to or whatever nonsense you're telling yourself.

I'm acting this way because it's an opinion you have. It's not critique and it's groundless. Get positively wrought in your own stew, desperately hoping you can have some "big own". You're not the first and you won't be the last person who makes groundless ass-moans about Quin. You've moaned with a few of them in this thread for a while now despite you supposedly "enjoying his content" when "you're in the mood". Do you hate him or like him?

I don't care if you do or don't. Just stop telling lies about him. That's it. I don't care if you hate or like him at the end of the day, but I don't stand for people deliberately telling lies about my characters.

Cope and seethe on your supposed calm and aloof manner. You're the one who took grave offense that I called your opinion-slinging factually wrong and uninformed. You're the one who talks about my content. I don't even know who you are, much like all the other haters, and will honestly forget you exist in a week.
???? I'm not even talking about Quin in that reply post but rather responding to foreverlurker saying, "Most things in this are heavily sexualized it is a porn game why play it otherwise no offense." And wasn't even mentioning Quin in that case.
I used it as a point of reference because that statement is what people like this frequently default to with no basis beyond opinion. I didn't do it to rag you specifically. This is why I reiterated the bits about Arona: to showcase how the person above is one of many who is morals pearl-clutching their OPINION to try and make me change the game or to try and argue against the FACTS of what's in the game.
 

Sacremas

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Jan 11, 2023
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I really dislike double-posting, but I want to answer this as it's pretty important.

You do not have to recruit Quin or kill him off. You can just let him keep running forever. Once you finish Harvest Valley, you would never see him again. So yes: it is your own fault for OCD about open quests. Unlike the forced choice to kill or spare + fuck the Alraune, I give you a neutral choice. Complain about all forced choices or don't at all.

As for the last thing, that sounds like a bug. His questline for the Gym shouldn't pop unless he's a companion. It's weird for him to fight for you if you haven't convinced him to join you as a companion. If that is happening, report it in the Bug Report section.

Yes I can tell him to fuck off if I don't want to deal with some cultist, but apparently that's a Corrupt action, and so doesn't seem in character for my Paladin. I wanted to just keep him safe and keep an eye on him, but not deal much with him further. On that character notably; I run multiple characters and I have another that's taking the "taleer package" on a regular basis. Once he is in Hawkethorne, the "Go ask him again" about recruiting him will pop regardless of if I ever actually ask him if he wants to come along or not, that should only proc if I ever asked him to begin with if he wanted to join, if I didn't then presumably I didn't care and just felt like I had to rescue him from his attackers and, y'know, not be a dick.

And sorry for the misunderstanding; I meant only that the Training quest (which as said I enjoyed, and it's nice to have him much more versatile, don't get me wrong, I like that the quest is there) will automatically proc as soon as he is recruited, giving you another quest to deal with. I'm just saying that once he is recruited he should have a dialogue option to talk about "Further training?" or something like that, which then triggers that quest, so if your character is a tank already and don't need another, but would like some AOE disabling with his Charmer talents, then I can't turn down or just never start that quest.

As mentioned I have OCD issues, games like Skyrim can be an outright nightmare where I'm stuck obsessively doing every single fetch quest in the journal just to clear it, because my broken mind tells me I have to do it, hence why I don't like forced quests in general. I don't feel the kill/spare Alarune compares in this respect, any more than dealing with the Winter City counts, it's part of the MQ, and doesn't really result in much difference overall, other than the character being there vs not. Rather a comparison that is an equal annoyance is the Maids quest later when you get the Wayfort properly, if I don't care about having maids going in my way and interrupting me on my stern military commander type that wants to run an ordered fort, that's just another quest stuck there. Another comparison is Azzyran automatically triggering the bimbo quest as soon as she is recruited, but at least that's one that you can get done with pretty fast (not to mention if you don't care about Azzyran beyond fixing her Hive, you don't have to recruit her to begin with. You can even completely avoid ever recruiting Arona for that matter. But if you just don't want to be a dickbag to this rando in need you just met, you are "forced" to recruit him.)
 
I'm acting this way because it's an opinion you have. It's not critique and it's groundless. Get positively wrought in your own stew, desperately hoping you can have some "big own".
Look, I told you I don't really feel up to having this conversation if you're going to be such a toxic little thing about it, but I literally can't help but be pinged by this and so it at least got a glance over, and this is the kind of thing you're saying?

You're not talking to me, you imprinting what you believe me to be saying do to your own preconceived notions. I have zero interest or use in making you look foolish, you are a name I can not remember on a forum that I will interact with maybe 3-4 more times before we never speak to one another again, and in the span of days if not hours no one will even remember the specifics of the conversation we had unless they stumble upon it again.

Well, I am mildly pissed at you now for throwing shade at my fucking brain damage, but I suppose that's technically not your fault even if you were a proper ass about me having a spotty memory.

As for the whole 'you spent all those posts ragging on him yadda yadda yadda something I don't even remember bleh do you hate him or not??' nonsense, I spent all those posts leveling with people and giving them the honest rundown of your character. For a porn game writer, you seem to really have a hard time connecting the possibility that some people might like fantasizing being a bit degraded or with a morally repugnant partner at times. I'm into it enough to like the content when I'm feeling a wee bit kinky that day, but I'm also not going to lie to myself or anyone else and act like he's not an asshole sleezeball.

Anyhow, you're too quick to jump to conclusions and too emotionally vulnerable, this is not a good way to live. You need to grow up a bit, learn to understand and take non-hostile criticism and brush off the worst of it or you're just going to end up eating yourself alive mentally. Take a moment and calm yourself down before responding to anyone here.
 
Cope and seethe on your supposed calm and aloof manner. You're the one who took grave offense that I called your opinion-slinging factually wrong and uninformed. You're the one who talks about my content. I don't even know who you are, much like all the other haters, and will honestly forget you exist in a week.
I, uh, I missed this part in the initial glance over, and now I am kind of feeling like a fool for expecting any sort of emotional maturity from this discussion in the first place.

...

Weeeeelp, now I have to live the life of someone that can't even read Quin's name in the companion list without hearing the words 'cope and seethe' being used unironically. This is fucking terrible.
 

MarcoPolo121

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Apr 24, 2017
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Sigh I knew something like this was going to happen. Knew it as soon as Antler's comment on page 142 was posted.

There is a point of resolution: come to me with a valid fact and not some sappy opinion that can't stand scrutiny. It has happened in the past and did lead to corrections/changes/additions to verify intent of content. But overwhelmingly, the forums don't bring that out anymore. The majority of people are alting or on burner accounts doing their regular piss contest. It's why I largely ignore the forums now.
Well that's nice to know. But unfortunately (or fortunately? I can't tell) all my potential complaints about Quinn are not based on facts but just an opinion that he doesn't stand out in the crowded field of companions. I'm open to having my mind changed tho.
 
Sigh I knew something like this was going to happen. Knew it as soon as Antler's comment on page 142 was posted.

Look I am sorry it got this bad but like I said I had no idea they were even the author when I was posting that, nor did I expect things to end up like this when I thought we were all keeping things fairly(mileage may vary here I suppose) civil.

Honestly I've just utilized ye ol' Ignore on them to save myself the grief of knowing how one of the authors is conducting themselves, so that should be at least a bit of the back and fourth put to the curb.



Though someone could of, you know, warned me they acted like that and I would of saved us all the trouble by actually deleting the post instead of settling on an edit. You people had a responsibility to save your resident antler enthusiast from this migraine. This betrayal shall not stand.
 

BubbleLord

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Sigh I knew something like this was going to happen. Knew it as soon as Antler's comment on page 142 was posted.


Well that's nice to know. But unfortunately (or fortunately? I can't tell) all my potential complaints about Quinn are not based on facts but just an opinion that he doesn't stand out in the crowded field of companions. I'm open to having my mind changed tho.
I have no intention of changing opinions. I only spoke up because yet another rando who will inevitably fade-to-black started to state opinions as fact. As mentioned, let people feel whatever opinions they want. You guys will either support the writing or you won't. I'm only ever coming into the forums these days to right some misinformed passerby's bad info. This is a trend that happens commonly in this community both on and off the forums (not just Quin-related) and is the only thing I ever give any shit about these days.

Haters are going to hate. If you end up liking my content, cool. But I don't cater my content differently just from opinions, especially those like the one who keeps victimizing themselves after talking opinion as fact for far too long. The circle jerk on the forums can only go so far before someone says something and they always act like they had some huge moral victory when I call them out on it. This is a looping cycle normally involving the same types of accounts and people each time, normally on rotations after they catch bans or ghost out to craft new identities. And it's always the same: the moment I step out, they take great offense and then never factually defend their points. They can't fathom me calling out their disingenuous behavior with even the slightest hint of rudeness and then play their entitlement card.

Let any of them actually support me and then they can bring some of those opinions my way. You know, the opinions. Not them slandering the character and making baseless assertions as if they're factual.

Won't hold my breath.
 
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HugLife

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Aug 7, 2018
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I have no intention of changing opinions. I only spoke up because yet another rando who will inevitably fade-to-black started to state opinions as fact. As mentioned, let people feel whatever opinions they want. You guys will either support the writing or you won't. I'm only ever coming into the forums these days to right some misinformed passerby's bad info. This is a trend that happens commonly in this community both on and off the forums (not just Quin-related) and is the only thing I ever give any shit about these days.

Haters are going to hate. If you end up liking my content, cool. But I don't cater my content differently just from opinions, especially those like the one who keeps victimizing themselves after talking opinion as fact for far too long. The circle jerk on the forums can only go so far before someone says something and they always act like they had some huge moral victory when I call them out on it. This is a looping cycle normally involving the same types of accounts and people each time, normally on rotations after they catch bans or ghost out to craft new identities. And it's always the same: the moment I step out, they take great offense and then never factually defend their points. They can't fathom me calling out their disingenuous behavior with even the slightest hint of rudeness and then play their entitlement card.

Let any of them actually support me and then they can bring some of those opinions my way. You know, the opinions. Not them slandering the character and making baseless assertions as if they're factual.

Won't hold my breath.
Ever thought about going the Wsan route and just leaving the forums entirely? Speaking as someone who finds the mercenaries charming and was looking forward to the Hirrud stuff, the last thing I'd want is to see yet another writer for the game vanish, especially if it's from being fed up with the community. If you're only dropping by to correct people on loop, it seems like your time would be better spent just writing or doing something else that wont otherwise cause you to burnout or associate your projects with the frustration of interacting with people here.
 

calkhi

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Jan 28, 2022
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There are a lot of battles that are, by design, meant to make the character feel less like a hero, and more like a pawn between the powers that, if encountered by a character of a level that it was meant for works, but when a character has exceeded a certain level, or obtained a certain level of cheese for their class, rapidly becomes boring and droll. Just as one example, running Gewyr quest, it has gotten to the point where the cultist horde has stopped being titled with a keyboard character. There needs to be a hard set point for each battle, no matter what it's meant to represent, where there is a given end to it. Either by Kas coming out and telling the character that they weren't supposed to win and ending the battle, or by the character just being given the win. How hard is it to just write a win for the player? Is it really that bad to just have the player win when they weren't supposed to? Is it so hard to just acknowledge that a player came prepared and won even if you didn't want them to? Furthermore, numbering the cultists rather than using a letter system would be vastly better in the first place, and I have absolutely no idea why it wasn't used. At least then we could make a bragging rights thread about how many were defeated on which difficulty. I've been pressing keys for an hour now and slamming damage out at an obscene pace because I was ready for a multi target fight with my skills and items, but it doesn't matter for the horde is endless. I'm betting I could reach the sum total of the entire population of the world that CoCII takes place in, including each and every person who has died up to that point in its history, and the battle would keep going.
 

WolframL

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Just as one example, running Gewyr quest, it has gotten to the point where the cultist horde has stopped being titled with a keyboard character.
This speaks to a failure of reading comprehension. You are told by Gweyr, going in, that you shouldn't keep fighting but withdraw after you feel you've done enough. If you keep on going to the point that the game runs out of letters that's entirely your fault for missing not only her dialogue but the bolded prompt right before the battle triggers that tells you this.
There needs to be a hard set point for each battle, no matter what it's meant to represent, where there is a given end to it. Either by Kas coming out and telling the character that they weren't supposed to win and ending the battle, or by the character just being given the win. How hard is it to just write a win for the player?
Like I said, a total failure of reading comprehension on your part:

Reading1.png

You are explicitly told this is not a fight you can win and that you should run away once you've done your bit. Having Kas show up to tell you that you aren't meant to win would break the fourth wall and the narrative, since what's going on up in the Rift is Tollus doing his own thing. There is likewise no reason for the game to 'just give you the win' here when it's made crystal-clear that you're not meant to win, but to distract the cultists for a while.
Furthermore, numbering the cultists rather than using a letter system would be vastly better in the first place, and I have absolutely no idea why it wasn't used. At least then we could make a bragging rights thread about how many were defeated on which difficulty.
The devs have been clear that they only milestone conduct that they want to encourage. People trying for some kind of record in a fight that explicitly isn't meant to be won isn't something they care to encourage.
 

zagzig

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Feb 26, 2021
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It's worth noting the GweyrQuest Distraction battle (and the Harem Spirits battle) was initially balanced when Resolve was still a thing, and tease enemies were terrifying foes. Your party would have lower Resolve bars, Resolve healing was niche and paltry, and every tease attack would bring you closer to your doom. Then Resolve was removed, and you can rack up silly numbers in both fights by bringing any healer. Which goes to explain why the game doesn't account for champ annihilating the fights.

Also, are there any other battles with endless foes in the game? I just remember the Distraction battle where you're meant to knock out 11 demons and leave, and the Harem Spirits where you just Defend once to win.
 

calkhi

Active Member
Jan 28, 2022
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This speaks to a failure of reading comprehension. You are told by Gweyr, going in, that you shouldn't keep fighting but withdraw after you feel you've done enough. If you keep on going to the point that the game runs out of letters that's entirely your fault for missing not only her dialogue but the bolded prompt right before the battle triggers that tells you this.

Like I said, a total failure of reading comprehension on your part:

View attachment 29103

You are explicitly told this is not a fight you can win and that you should run away once you've done your bit. Having Kas show up to tell you that you aren't meant to win would break the fourth wall and the narrative, since what's going on up in the Rift is Tollus doing his own thing. There is likewise no reason for the game to 'just give you the win' here when it's made crystal-clear that you're not meant to win, but to distract the cultists for a while.

The devs have been clear that they only milestone conduct that they want to encourage. People trying for some kind of record in a fight that explicitly isn't meant to be won isn't something they care to encourage.
So basically, I'm supposed to suspend my disbelief and just say "Oh yeah, they've got an army of a few thousand here despite having zero real supply lines, zero connections to even the big bad at this point, and there's barely been much, if any at all, comment about cultist raiding parties across all of the content so far."? Ok, let me reform my gripe, CoC has a better story than CoCII even at comparative points of development, and it shouldn't be that way considering they've now got a fairly extensive team working on the game, as far as text based games go.
 

SmithEK

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Apr 20, 2021
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So basically, I'm supposed to suspend my disbelief and just say "Oh yeah, they've got an army of a few thousand here despite having zero real supply lines, zero connections to even the big bad at this point, and there's barely been much, if any at all, comment about cultist raiding parties across all of the content so far."? Ok, let me reform my gripe, CoC has a better story than CoCII even at comparative points of development, and it shouldn't be that way considering they've now got a fairly extensive team working on the game, as far as text based games go.
Could of done sabotage.
 
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calkhi

Active Member
Jan 28, 2022
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It's worth noting the GweyrQuest Distraction battle (and the Harem Spirits battle) was initially balanced when Resolve was still a thing, and tease enemies were terrifying foes. Your party would have lower Resolve bars, Resolve healing was niche and paltry, and every tease attack would bring you closer to your doom. Then Resolve was removed, and you can rack up silly numbers in both fights by bringing any healer. Which goes to explain why the game doesn't account for champ annihilating the fights.

Also, are there any other battles with endless foes in the game? I just remember the Distraction battle where you're meant to knock out 11 demons and leave, and the Harem Spirits where you just Defend once to win.
And this right here is a point to be made, which was a part of what my gripe was pointing at. Why wasn't the battle reworked to have substantial increases in enemy strength after the rework? This was a valid solution to my gripe, as one of the things I pointed out was and I quote myself "There are a lot of battles that are, by design, meant to make the character feel less like a hero, and more like a pawn between the powers that, if encountered by a character of a level that it was meant for works, but when a character has exceeded a certain level, or obtained a certain level of cheese for their class, rapidly becomes boring and droll." This was literally me pointing out that the battles need a rework to bring them back in line with the narrative. Or, if that's never going to happen, at least have an upper enemy cap and just hand the player a win for the time being.
 

Tide Hunter

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May 4, 2019
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Yeah, but I did that the last three times now. I wanted to try the other path.
Don't double post, you could have put all three replies in one.
So basically, I'm supposed to suspend my disbelief and just say "Oh yeah, they've got an army of a few thousand here despite having zero real supply lines, zero connections to even the big bad at this point, and there's barely been much, if any at all, comment about cultist raiding parties across all of the content so far."? Ok, let me reform my gripe, CoC has a better story than CoCII even at comparative points of development, and it shouldn't be that way considering they've now got a fairly extensive team working on the game, as far as text based games go.
The closest CoC got to handling logistics is the existence of the Bizarre Bizaar acting sorta as a corrupt city. CoC's story was practically non-existent, since all that there really was was a load of loosely connected characters and stories. As for cultist raids, they did quite a lot down south in the Harvest valley, the area where all the farms are. While other places weren't mentioned, they've been doing things all the time, just not everywhere.
 

WolframL

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Feb 12, 2020
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So basically, I'm supposed to suspend my disbelief and just say "Oh yeah, they've got an army of a few thousand here despite having zero real supply lines, zero connections to even the big bad at this point, and there's barely been much, if any at all, comment about cultist raiding parties across all of the content so far."?
Don't be obtuse. Discussion of their supply lines does come up in the next parts of the quest. Tollus is still working with Kas, he's just a manipulative fuck who's also clearly playing his own game with this little side project. This is all spelled out explicitly in the notes that you obtain from Tollus in the quest you are required to do before Winter Wolf can proc, the one involving the cult making trouble down in Harvest Valley at Kas' direction.
Ok, let me reform my gripe, CoC has a better story than CoCII even at comparative points of development, and it shouldn't be that way considering they've now got a fairly extensive team working on the game, as far as text based games go.
You must be taking the piss at this point. CoC1's main story can be summed up as 'You are a Champion from Isekai Village, you get sent through a portal to fight the demons (but you're really a sacrifice), you kick their asses in two disjointed quests before kicking their leader's ass in a final one, and that's the first time Lethice even learns that you exist'. There is no main plot beyond that and even that much is incredibly incoherent. The writing provides basically no motivations for the Champ to do anything once your immediate safety is taken care of and even the main plot largely exists in a bubble that you can completely ignore once you finish the first dungeon. Everything else that forms most of the game's content is layered on top of that in a hodgepodge fashion and is bubble-waifu-tastic. If you seriously think that's better writing than CoC2 then either you have incomprehensibly low standards for what constitutes a coherent narrative or you need to get your rose-tinted glasses checked.
And this right here is a point to be made, which was a part of what my gripe was pointing at. Why wasn't the battle reworked to have substantial increases in enemy strength after the rework?
Because the endlessly spawning cultists are the same enemies you'll encounter elsewhere in the Rift and making them tougher for one battle would require either coding in a special 'quest-only' set or rebalancing all their encounters? Because reworking a battle that you are explicitly not meant to win by force of arms isn't anything even resembling a priority?
 
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Kingu2

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You must be taking the piss at this point. CoC1's main story can be summed up as 'You are a Champion from Isekai Village, you get sent through a portal to fight the demons (but you're really a sacrifice), you kick their asses in two disjointed quests before kicking their leader's ass in a final one, and that's the first time Lethice even learns that you exist'. There is no main plot beyond that and even that much is incredibly incoherent. The writing provides basically no motivations for the Champ to do anything once your immediate safety is taken care of and even the main plot largely exists in a bubble that you can completely ignore once you finish the first dungeon.
Well now who's being obtuse. The story of CoC isn't told through the main questline it's told through the various people you meet throughout the world. Amily and Jojo give a glimps into what the world was like before the demons. Factions like the the sand witches and the harpy queen show how the denizens are pushing back against the demons despite the odds against them. Stories like Benoit's, Urta's and Arian show just what kind of hell wrought for the people of Mareth both directly and indirectly. Minerva who was a previous Champion who had a really bad time after she got sent through the portal. Their are a ton of examples of people all throughout CoC giving context and a narrative to the story and provides more the enough motivation for the main character for whatever they choose to do.
Everything else that forms most of the game's content is layered on top of that in a hodgepodge fashion and is bubble-waifu-tastic. If you seriously think that's better writing than CoC2 then either you have incomprehensibly low standards for what constitutes a coherent narrative or you need to get your rose-tinted glasses checked.
CoC has a mountain of interconnected relationships that do a much better job pf displaying those than CoCII. Like Urta/Endryn, Urta/Kath, Urta/Amily, Amily/Izma, Amily/Marble, Helia/Izma, Helia/Kiha, Marble/Whitney, Amily/Jojo and KidA/Goblin horde, just to name a few. Neither TiTS nor CoCII has had more interconnected characters than CoC.
 
You do win. You just have to press the "I'm ready to leave" button.
Fleeing the battlefield is never the answer.

Now please ignore the fact that I go into 90% of combat encounters already mashing the RUN button.
 
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WolframL

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Feb 12, 2020
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Well now who's being obtuse. The story of CoC isn't told through the main questline it's told through the various people you meet throughout the world.
Virtually all of whom are optional (and to an extent randomized) encounters that you have to seek out. The only things that you are required to do by the game develop precisely none of the details that you raise. Meanwhile CoC2 provides you with a great deal of worldbuilding, evidence for what Kasyrra is doing and why you want to stop it during the main quest, since you can see the impact that her corruption has on Hawkethorne's regional safety as a consequence of moving to the next plot location, you see what she does to the Winter City in the conclusion of Act I and you can see what's starting to happen in KM in Act II so far. Also, we have the whole 'Kas wants your soul so you'd better do something about that' thing to personally motivate the Champ.

Meanwhile it's entirely possible to just not go to Tel'Adre outside the first time it decides to proc in your aimless exploration and no motivation is given to the Champ to go there beyond the player thinking 'Oh, I should check out what's there'. Yes, a lot of things happen there and a lot of development happens in that way but it's all a massive set of sometimes-linked bubbles that are completely independent of the plot. For all that a lot of content in CoC2 is similarly optional, it at least puts you in the location where much of the optional content springs from as your main hub, and from there tells you about important optional content when Garth or Sanders approach you to mention things like Fort Marrok or the valkyries up north. Or it puts important things on tiles that you have to pass through to progress the story, like Azzy and by extension the entire Hive plot thread.

I fail to see how anyone can argue with a straight face that CoC1's story is better than CoC2's when the former game barely has a story; it's practically the definition of an Excuse Plot.
 
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Sacremas

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Jan 11, 2023
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Diffuse vs linear storytelling and worldbuilding are both equally valid, used differently in a ton of different novels and similar. Some people prefer one over the other, doesn't make the other by default worse. Take Lord of the Rings, Sauron has not much more impact on that story overall than Lethice does for COC1, for the most part, he's just there and caused a lot of stuff the heroes have to deal with "or else." It's not the best analogy and I'm sure someone can poke holes in it if they tried fairly easily, but should hopefully illustrate my point.

I have heard from people that distinctly do not like how the villain is so "in your face" all the time, since it leads to the main character feeling somewhat impotent and helpless, presuming they don't want to prove their "potency" otherwise with her that is. And there is validity to that view as well. Take away the option to sex Kas (or swap her and Tollus characters in the story), and the reaction to her showing up so often yet never getting her comeuppance will be very different for many players.
 

Kingu2

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May 20, 2020
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Virtually all of whom are optional encounters that you have to seek out. The only things that you are required to do by the game develop precisely none of the details that you raise. Meanwhile CoC2 provides you with a great deal of worldbuilding, evidence for what Kasyrra is doing and why you want to stop it during the main quest, since you can see the impact that her corruption has on Hawkethorne's regional safety as a consequence of moving to the next plot location, you see what she does to the Winter City in the conclusion of Act I and you can see what's starting to happen in KM in Act II so far. Also, we have the whole 'Kas wants your soul so you'd better do something about that' thing to personally motivate the Champ.
You are required to go and talk to Marea the worlds Godess who will tell exactly how the world came to be in the state that it's in and the effects it has had on the lands. You are required to go to the factory where you learn the fate of all previous champions and that you were suposed to join them, and that they are being used to pump out corruptive fluids into the lake to snuff out any remianing purity in the land and you decide whether to stop it, let continue, or make things much worse. You are required to go to Zetas' dungeon where you learn he's been ousted for has failure to capture you and is building up an army with his fuckslave vala to try to usurp Lethice. And you'll go and pretend like none of this relevant to the games story because of course you are.

But setting all that aside, who the hell is actually going to play either of these games like that? Have you ever played a RPG doing ONLY what's required for the mainquestline? You know as well as I do you're missing like 90% of the game by doing that.

Meanwhile it's entirely possible to just not go to Tel'Adre outside the first time it decides to proc in your aimless exploration and no motivation is given to the Champ to go there beyond the player thinking 'Oh, I should check out what's there'. Yes, a lot of things happen there and a lot of development happens in that way but it's all a massive set of sometimes-linked bubbles that are completely independent of the plot.
That's just silly. To think that plot relevance has anything to do with being in a bubble. On that note who besides Cait breifly at the begining and ethryn at the WC have any relevance to the main plot?
For all that a lot of content in CoC2 is similarly optional, it at least puts you in the location where much of the optional content springs from as your main hub, and from there tells you about important optional content when Garth or Sanders approach you to mention things like Fort Marrok or the valkyries up north. Or it puts important things on tiles that you have to pass through to progress the story, like Azzy and by extension the entire Hive plot thread.
This is of course where you realized most of CoCII's content is also optional and try to argue that because it puts some NPC's in your path to tell you about the content that somehow makes the content superior. This is a very, very stupid arguement That I have seen before. It's dumb for the simple fact that good content is good no matter how you end up coming across it. There doesn't need to be an NPC to tell me to keep finding and fucking Helia to get her quest, or look for the location of the sand witches coven. I'll want to check them out because the content related to them is worth seeing. This encourages exploration and interaction with various NPC's and areas and staves off the fuck and forget attitude that I've personally fostered with many of CoCII's NPC's.
I fail to see how anyone can argue with a straight face that CoC1's story is better than CoC2's when the former game barely has a story; it's practically the definition of an Excuse Plot.
I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. If you think CoCII's story is better then more power to you, I'm not going to come in like a Jackass and tell you your opinion is wrong. But the idea that a story is bad or nonexistant or invalid because it's not told to you directly through the mainquestline (and I say this a a big soulsbourne fan) is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.
 
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WolframL

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Feb 12, 2020
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Diffuse vs linear storytelling and worldbuilding are both equally valid, used differently in a ton of different novels and similar. Some people prefer one over the other, doesn't make the other by default worse. Take Lord of the Rings, Sauron has not much more impact on that story overall than Lethice does for COC1, for the most part, he's just there and caused a lot of stuff the heroes have to deal with "or else." It's not the best analogy and I'm sure someone can poke holes in it if they tried fairly easily, but should hopefully illustrate my point.
I think that Sauron is a better match for Kas than he is for Lethice, personally. The reason that Sauron is a passive antagonist is spelled out very early and is directly linked to the plot: We have the ring he needs to become not-passive, he knows we have it and therefore he will keep sending his proxies at us until he either retrieves it (Bad) or we destroy it (Good). All of the 'stuff' that the Fellowship deals with along the way is either Sauron attempting to get the Ring or the heroes thwarting his attempts or distracting him so Frodo and Sam can get the Ring to Mt. Doom. Replace 'the Ring' with 'the Champ's soul' and you have CoC2 except that Kas is also an active antagonist who directly advances her own plans as well as delegating them to subordinates. And like Sauron and the Ring, the fact that Kas wants the Champ's soul provides a very direct motivation to oppose her.
You are required to go and talk to Marea the worlds Godess who will tell exactly how the world came to be in the state that it's in and the effects it has had on the lands.
Okay, fair, you do need to do this as part of the story.
You are required to go to the factory where you learn the fate of all previous champions and that you were suposed to join them, and that they are being used to pump out corruptive fluids into the lake to snuff out any remianing purity in the land and you decide whether to stop it, let continue, or make things much worse. You are required to go to Zetas' dungeon where you learn he's been ousted for has failure to capture you and is building up an army with his fuckslave vala to try to usurp Lethice. And you'll go and pretend like none of this relevant to the games story because of course you are.
These are literally the only things relevant to the plot however, everything else is a sideshow. And frankly, Zetaz is basically a sideshow as well; He doesn't have a fraction the menace of the Nazgul (to use the LotR comparison already raised), you literally kick his ass effortlessly in a cutscene before the gameplay properly begins and and the 'threat' he poses basically consists of sitting on his ass and waiting for the Champ to come to him, just like Lethice. That's one of the biggest flaws in CoC1: There is very little active menace on the part of any of the 'major' antagonists. We only see a handful of demons while roaming the land; the closest active sign of the demon's continuing presence is that roaming band in the desert, while Ceraph and Vapula exist in their own little bubbles. CoC1 ran heavily on telling the player that the demons were doing all of this awful shit with very little showing you the threat they presented. Vapula's the closest the game has to that and again she's entirely confined to a bubble plot in a part of the game you're never required to visit.

CoC2 by contrast constantly reminds you that Kas is an active presence in the world. You can't get through two of the three starting zones without dealing with at least one thing that she has either just done before you arrived (the Alraune/the Hive) or is actively doing (Harvest Valley) and she's a very direct presence in the Winter City. We see what she's doing in KM even if that plotline isn't finished yet. Many of the sidequests likewise involve dealing with the direct consequences of Kas' actions and as the game progresses, you start encountering enemies like the Painted Demon(s), increasingly powerful imps and transformed cultists to remind you that not only are the demons a threat but they're actively getting more dangerous. The game never lets you forget that Kas is the villain that needs to be taken seriously and who is capable of showing up to do more things whenever she feels like it. She is proactive in a way that Lethice never is and her supposed demonic hordes rarely are.
But setting all that aside, who the hell is actually going to play either of these games like that? Have you ever played a RPG doing ONLY what's required for the mainquestline? You know as well as I do you're missing like 90% of the game by doing that.
Yes, but most of those games (and CoC2) give you some in-universe reason for doing all of that side content. CoC1 gives the Champ no specific motivation to do anything past the Factory, outside the meta-logic of 'well, I'm playing a game, I guess I should see what will happen if I do this'. Finding the final two dungeons basically consists of the Champ bumbling across them, without any of the prompting that the Factory had.
That's just silly. To think that plot relevance has anything to do with being in a bubble. On that note who besides Cait breifly at the begining and ethryn at the WC have any relevance to the main plot?
Brint/Brienne by virtue of their home being the current target for Kas' ambitions. Azzy's content may be plot-adjacent but you're at least compelled to interact with her on the way to advancing the plot. Quin is connected to the main plot because he was part of the cult that started this whole mess to begin with. Arona may be optional but the reason the Kervus are in the Frost Marches to begin with directly ties into Kasyrra's appearance.

Also, reminder: The companions interact with the main plot and side content constantly because they have all manner of dialogue and other interactions when you bring them. CoC1 characters (and most TiTs ones) exist in their own completely isolated bubbles at camp/in Tel'Arde/the ship/whatever planet they're on (choose as appropriate) and have no impact on the plot.
I'm not arguing that one is better than the other. If you think CoCII's story is better then more power to you,
I should have been more clear that that last part wasn't directed to you directly so much as it was to calkhi's claim that "CoC has a better story than CoCII even at comparative points of development". As I've tried to articulate, CoC1's story is a barely-there excuse plot to justify all of the extra Stuff.
 

morii

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2023
81
207
hold up hold up hold up

What happened here with wsan?

I believe I missed it

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe some writers don't really care to hear what people have to say about their work unless it's a major glaring issue. There's a lot of nitpicking going around which is fine, but writers don't have to frequent the forum if they don't want to. And I think wsan left a while ago??

There is not a corruption path planned. Blame the people who neg'd me for years and kept demanding me to feminize him, as I was open to the idea of a femboy/more corrupt version of Quin until people with bad attitudes drove me to not want to cater to them. This is the same reason a lot of my content interest dried up: I have no rush to write content for people who want to bitch all about it. I got nagged for over a year about Byvernia preg, released it, then never heard about it after the first week it was out.

That's when I had my reality check: unless I become a paid employee for CoC2, I will write when it doesn't impact my life and when I feel like it. I've felt like it recently, actually, but haven't been able to get the freetime. I did piece out part of Leofric's content drop the other day for something, in fact, and intend to finish dropping him as long as my schedule allows this week. But I get hopeful a lot like this, so no promises. More Quin is in the chamber for later, though, which does cover his softer side. This is why there is a relationship system. It will matter. I went through and outlined the specific ranges a while back for writers, in fact, because I wanted to narrow down issues with how to interpret it.

Hey, thank you Bubble for replying to me. I'm sorry if I said anything negative about Quin, I always try to be constructive and civil--but I do appreciate your characters and contributions to this game. And the relationship system is really promising since I'm always for stuff like that. I don't really care about feminizing him, but turning him into an evil bastard KOTOR2 style would be pretty fun for my corrupted saves.

I'm curious about Leofric, not sure what to expect but I'm here for it all the same.

I noticed shit gets heated here (whether serious or not), but I guess people covet their precious porn game which I understand heh
 
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