Your gripes with CoC II

[Alypia]

You're right I suppose. I didn't consider the male NPCs to be a minority either but when compared to the female population everything else is apparently.

I think one of the reason why one might have the idea that "everyone in this game is a futa" is because of the disproportional presentation of girls with dicks compared to guys with vaginas. Like yeah there is one or two cboys / male-herms in the game but whenever there is a mention of hermaphroditism it is always heavily implied to be of the female variety which is kinda immersion breaking imo and I can see why some would think that dickgirls are there solely for fetish reasons instead of complementing the world building especially when there are no apparent reasons for it to be that way.

I mean, the whole game is here for fetish reasons.

In games like these, with open community submissions and writer teams that exist because they were community writers once upon a time, the audience reflects the kind of content that gets written. If people wanted more content for he/him characters with vaginas, they would write it. Other than birbs, they haven't. Cboys and maleherms certainly exist in Savarra, but until somebody who's actually interested in them starts writing (or, in birbs' case, writing more), they're not going to have very much of a sexual presence in game.

 

[Raccoon-Dog]

I mean, if you are a Berwyn fan, progressing with his quests yields you 4 and something sex scenes and maybe an option to add to him something extra to spice things up.
If you like your Berwyn as he is, a cute Dom, you get 9 scenes. So yeah, basically doing nothing and just having him sit in the tavern does feel like a better choice.

I totally feel ya on what ya said, it's a shitty situation to be sure tho it's good to know that I'm not the only one feeling like u do about it all.

 

[BadDragoon]

Again, the other option was remove him from the game, why cant you be glad he was given a genuinely good overall expac?

I feel like there is a way to give Berwyn a nice conclusion to his questline without removing him from being a companion or from the game entirely. Giving us an option to 'customize' our own Berwyn was a neat idea but was ultimately too ambitious to be implement on a party member. Imo this expac wrapped up his story pretty well but I think I'd rather have him stay as a companion without further updates than the body modification shenanigans tbh. (Not saying that the body transformation was bad ofc. I'm just disappointed to lose one of my favorite companion)

 

[kiby]

Again, the other option was remove him from the game, why cant you be glad he was given a genuinely good overall expac?

Was the only other option to remove him from the game completely? Other characters have been written by authors who have stopped writing them for one reason or another, and they haven't been put through this same situation. Yea, Berwyn was a companion, but what would have been stopping them from just saying "Sorry, Berwyn won't be getting more content". The quest's story was ok (fuck that maze, though), but the whole "completely remake him physically" part felt extremely contrived and out of nowhere.

Also, if we liked Berwyn as he was, especially his large amount of scenes at the Frosthound, then completing this quest leaves his non-story content just plain worse off than before. Gone are his 9 various direct sex scenes, gone is his petting scene, gone are his threesomes and voyeur scenes with Cait, gone is the ability to talk with him about having children. I'm praying that all his regular scenes being removed by finishing this quest is unintentional.

 

[WolframL]

Yea, Berwyn was a companion, but what would have been stopping them from just saying "Sorry, Berwyn won't be getting more content"

Because the entire pitch behind companions is that they do have ongoing content that integrates them with the story, the world and each other. It's literally right there in the primary design doc in bold that Savin does not want CoC1 bubble waifus who don't interact with anybody else. It's also right there in the still-stickied topic that Tobs wrote about writing companions. Even the companions who have the least content right now have more integration with the rest of the cast and with ongoing events than Berry.

So yeah, leaving him as-is with no new content would just exacerbate how much of a bubble character he ended up as due to Real Word Circumstances intervening and he'd continue to be literary dead space in every quest and the main plot. I suppose you could argue there's some utility in that if (for example) you're trying to see all the Abyssal Depths companion content for a particular character since it takes the random factor out, but that's an edge case and I don't think it justifies leaving him in but unsupported.

 

[Ria Brew]

Also one of the primary issues facing Berry was that a resolution to his story was promised even before Hugs left and it's reflected very frequently in the writing. A resolution needed to be written as well as addressing the issue that he was an unsupported companion that required others pick up the slack to have any kind of inclusion. The options faced were leave him unfinished which is not a future-friendly finished product solution, unload the burden onto someone else which is honestly kind of unfair in the long run, remove them from the game which leaves everyone unhappy, or give him some closure and revoke his status as companion.

I have my issues with how it was delivered which is shared with many others who discussed their feelings with Savin in the discord (who was a very good sport about the whole thing) and I am sad to lose a companion I liked as well as a chunk of their content but I'm also understanding of a lot of the reasoning behind it and how there was no truly good solution. I'm also hopeful that there is more to come later on to refill the gap left by the inaccessible scenes.

 

[wery12345]

Yeah, this was not done as something to be a "fuck you" to berry enjoyers, but to leave him in a state that allows him to actually still see content instead of either A being removed or B getting a finished story by someone who wasnt the original creator as a companion, and no one wants to do that.

 

[rafabud]

Was the only other option to remove him from the game completely? Other characters have been written by authors who have stopped writing them for one reason or another, and they haven't been put through this same situation. Yea, Berwyn was a companion, but what would have been stopping them from just saying "Sorry, Berwyn won't be getting more content".

Because stuff like that is bad for the game, and Berwyn was a special case. Most characters already recieved expansions in one way or another, the only exceptions were Quintilus, Berwyn and Agni.

• Agni is the most recent companion, which means she has very little content overall.
• Quintilus is tied with Tollus' Cult, meaning there isn't much TO do with him so far, he's tied up with an antagonist's progression.
• Berwyn stands out not only because he's the only one of the older companions to not have any major expansions, but because he was recruited through a quest that was left open-ended. Hell he joined you in the hopes of pretecting himself from Matiha because she was still at large.

Imagine setting that up and then Matiha is never mentioned again. That is the textbook definition of bad storytelling.

 

[Pursang]

There's no preponderance of women with penises. Numerically, they constitute a very clear minority.

So, according to the data that you yourself provided, over 20% of the women encountered in this game have a penis. That's a great deal more than the 0.6% of people 13 and older who identify as trans in the United States alone (read: All trans people, not just trans women.) I never implied that women with penises where a majority, only that there are a great deal of them more in this game then in real life. In reality, women with penises are extremely rare.

How Many Adults and Youth Identify as Transgender in the United States?

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu

I think that you misunderstand the point that I was trying to make. I'm not implying that trans women, or women with penises shouldn't be represented in this game, they absolutely should. But they're also over-represented in comparison to reality. It would take very little to simply explain why there is such a delta between our world and Savarra.

Ahem, did you miss the elephant in the room that is the Godswar? You know, the apocalyptic struggle against an extradimensional threat that almost destroyed the world, did bring the single largest empire to ruin and has left virtually everybody picking up the pieces and struggling to just survive for the last few centuries? You might wanna consider that.

Also, there are hints that tensions between different races have been a factor (particularly in Kitsuhon and Not!China) but they're, y'know, not nearly as big a deal any more in the face of the goddamned apocalypse. Also, this ls literally fantasy with porn and very little is going to kill players' horni more than reading all about ethnic tensions. Deal with it.

Very little of the Godswar has been explained and explored in the game so far - aside from how it relates to the living gods that is. There's very little to consider, because we simply do not know the impact the Godswar had on Savarra or its inhabitants. No doubt many people died. Entire nations where set aflame. But a few centuries afterwards and everything seems to be fine and well in the world of Savarra. It would be extremely easy to create a simple codex page explaining (even in broad strokes) the impact the Godswar had - but all we have now is supposition

But y'know, you're right. Someone should really tell Savin and everyone else who has worked hard on this game that this game is merely porn and that they (the contributers et al) should be held to a lower standard because of it. There is nothing great or transformative with this game. It's the lowest of the low.

Hmm. On second thought, that seems a bit rude, don't you think WolframL?

Do you think that maybe the fact that the lead developer/writer for the game has a thing for muscle (dick)girls might be a factor here? Again, this is fantasy, not a tract about systems of government, gender norms or race.

Also if you want to be pedantic, Khor'minos and its king say hi, and before the Godswar the lupines had Jarls and Belhar had Emperors. Probably Empresses too but I think we've only been told about male rulers there.

I have a thing for "muscle (dick)girls" just like Savin. In fact, I'm pretty sure Savin and I share a lot of interests - which is why I enjoy this game a whole lot. But again, when I can start a drinking game because certain types of characters in this game have become its own trope, would it really hurt to branch things out instead of oversaturating these characters?

And yes, Khor'minos might have a king (for now) but that doesn't take away from what I was saying. And whether there where a great deal of male rulers in Savarra's past is completely irrelevant. Because we're dealing with Savarra's present and future. If Savin wants the vast majority of rulers to be women, then that's great. But I feel that such a thing can and should be quickly explained.

Taldahs can't be supplanted, he can be purified and remain in charge or you kill him and then nobody is in charge.

Is it not implied that once you rescue his daughter Ahmri from Master Tollus that the title of chieftan would fall to her? Leaving her in charge? She's called a centaur princess after all.

Again, not a tract on gender norms or politics. Don't like it? Learn to live with it.

Wow, this is such a useful and cromulent reply.

"This thing isn't coherent."
"Learn to live with that thing"

No. I don't think I will learn to live with things that unnecessarily don't make sense. Especially when the solution is so simple.

And Kasyrra considers them to be small-minded while she has ambitions. Whether you agree with them or not (to say nothing of her methods) is another matter entirely, but she's demonstrated a good deal more of an interest in long-term goals than they did. Also, something something CoC2's writers are (largely) not the same as CoC1's and the writing of the earlier game isn't on nearly the same level.

Being interested in long-term goals isn't mutually exclusive with being evil.

And it's completely irrelevant as to who's currently working working on this game. This game is quite literally a sequel to the first game, and what's more it's set in the same universe. It's been designed from the ground up by the lead developer to be so. You want to show the main antagonist as acting abnormal?

Great.

Explain why.

Not acting like a rape-beast =/= not acting like a demon. See above, and Kas is clearly more goal-oriented and has a better handle on her lusts. Which isn't to say she doesn't have them, but she does sense something special about the Champ which means she's being especially careful around them. Can't fuck the soul out of them before it's strong enough.

See above.

I suggest you pay more attention and leave the Dung Ages stereotypes at the door. I'd suggest in particular that you pay attention to the detail put into Khor'minos, which is modeled after ancient Rome and has indoor plumbing.

Is Savarra utopian? Hell no, but it's not nearly as grimdark as you seem to think it is.

>Wraith invade and start a war that nearly annihilates the world

Gods are real and the common person is their plaything
No such thing as modern medicine or amenities
It's seemingly common for people to be brutally hacked up, raped, set aflame, etc.
Demon invades and bends every national leader (and maybe even The Champion) under their will

If you don't consider that grimdark, then I don't even know what to say.

As someone who does play a Champ who doesn't have a great deal of sex and is chaste with everyone but her beloved, I'll thank you to not tell me that I'm Doing It Wrong.

You do you. I was merely making a non-serious tongue-in-cheek comment.

Well, a complete lack of empathy for starts...

Plenty of people live without empathy in our very world.

They're called psychopaths, and most of them are normal people like you and I.

First off, as Aly has noted the numbers aren't as imbalanced as you think. Also, it's what the writers tend to like and it's what the majority of the fanbase likes to see. This is, again, a fucking fantasy game, it doesn't have to be 'realistic'. It just has to be realistic enough that it doesn't break the majority of players' suspension of disbelief.

And this is explained if you pay attention. Alchemy exists in this setting and one thing that can be done with it is to affect genitalia. Hence, you get ladies who might not have been born with a penis but who wanted one, so they went and got one. There are others who had it applied to them and aren't happy about it (Eryka) or who were transformed involuntarily and don't mind it (Evelyn). And then there are a number of people who are simply born intersex because that's how their race works in the setting. Elves of all stripes can be born that way, as a fact of life in Savarra.

Allow me to point you to my reply to them, in which I debunk the claim that there isn't a huge difference between Savarra and the real world. There's a huge, largely unexplained difference between Savarra and our world. It might be realistic enough for you, but it's not realistic enough for me to suspend my disbelief.

So discounting the races who magically have be-dicked women (unexplained for no reason) and the women who acquire penises by accident, let's assume that changing your genitalia is completely normal and even common-place to the common inhabitant of Savarra. And let's say for the sake of argument that both women and men have equal access to genitalia-changing alchemy/magic.

Where are the men with vaginas? Where are the hermaphroditic men?

Anna and Morwen both do actually, and Orlaith can be explained both by 'It's Wsan, that's what he wanted to write' and 'They're literally made of magic'.

Oh, you are correct. I misremembered and for some reason only remembered Morwen as having a penis.

"They're literally made of magic."

Hand-waving nonsensical things away as the product of magic is so completely and utterly lazy. But according to the dryads' wiki page, at least it's implied that dryads' gentiles are divorced from gender/sex.

Which I appreciate. So good job whoever created the dryads.

Have you actually done the conversation where Carmen asks you to become the Champion of Hawkthorne? Or paid any attention to the setting? The Frost Marches is not a well-organized state with a strong government, it's a large town with no permanent military and its nominal ruler has very little actual power to call upon. There is no army to muster and no government to organize one. The Winter City has been isolationist for centuries and the events of the game drain the bulk of its upper crust before we're able to stabilize things, so they don't have vast armies to mobilize to send beyond the borders when they haven't even been able to maintain a wayfort that used to represent the southern edge of their domains for several centuries. Khor'minos is the one regional power that really has its collective shit together (probably because they hunkered down during the Godswar after Fort Marrok fell and waited until it all blew over) and they've focused on defending what they have rather than trying to launch an expedition against Kasyrra. That her forces lay siege to the city and keep them in a defensive posture doesn't help either.

There have been plenty of city-states throughout history that have been able to muster some kind of soldiery in times of need, see: Ancient Greece, and 18th century Germanic states. Why can't The Frost Marches unite, or try to combat this newfound threat? They have every reason to get their collective asses into gear as quickly as possible. And even if the regional powers can't or won't unite, then what about the actual superpowers of the world? Where are their armies? I don't believe we've heard a peep from them, even though it would be simple to send pigeons with an urgent message.

Even the living gods are taking note of Kassyra and stepping in from time-to-time. So where are their followers? Why aren't they mustering to face this clear and present danger?

Because this is a porn game. Are you really asking why a game whose main draw is sex would write all its sexable characters to be attractive in their own ways?

Nope. That's not what I said or implied at all.

I think that making everyone look attractive makes nobody stand out enough, and so the average gets pushed up and no characters stands out. No character really takes your breath away.

Because they all share the same general features.

If you clicked the wrong option, that's not a forced transformation; it's you not paying attention. PEBKAC is not a problem the devs can solve.

Are you... not aware that many of these forced TFs are unlabeled? So when you click the option expecting one thing, but you get something else then that isn't the player's problem because they aren't given the appropriate information beforehand. Literally the first potential sex scene in the game (with Kassyra) is replete with forced transformations that the player cannot opt out of if they didn't know beforehand. And even if they do know and don't want them, then that means no sex!

Keeping vital information from the player is very much an issue. It's completely unnecessary. It's poor game design.

 

[WolframL]

I think that you misunderstand the point that I was trying to make. I'm not implying that trans women, or women with penises shouldn't be represented in this game, they absolutely should. But they're also over-represented in comparison to reality. It would take very little to simply explain why there is such a delta between our world and Savarra.

This. Is. A. Fantasy. Game. It does not need to reflect real life. Fantasy. Game.

Very little of the Godswar has been explained and explored in the game so far - aside from how it relates to the living gods that is. There's very little to consider, because we simply do not know the impact the Godswar had on Savarra or its inhabitants.

Only because you have not been paying attention. The game describes the impact of the Godswar repeatedly, there is an entire quest where you explore the ruins of a fort that fell during the Godswar and hear what it did to the region. The hub location where you begin the game and spend a lot of your time had to be rebuilt a few decades before the game begins because it took that long after the Godswar for the population levels to return to the point that they could rebuild a permanent settlement there. There is a sequence that contains some of the most significant lore in the game which tells you straight up that a major city is an absolute shell of its former glory because of the Godswar. Characters talk about how bad things are in the heartlands that bore the brunt of the fighting. That you think it hasn't been explained does not mean that it hasn't been.

But y'know, you're right. Someone should really tell Savin and everyone else who has worked hard on this game that this game is merely porn and that they (the contributers et al) should be held to a lower standard because of it. There is nothing great or transformative with this game. It's the lowest of the low.

There is no part of telling a compelling story that requires a fucking essay about race relations, just to fit your obsession with having every possible detail explained about why people are mostly getting along.

I have a thing for "muscle (dick)girls" just like Savin. In fact, I'm pretty sure Savin and I share a lot of interests - which is why I enjoy this game a whole lot. But again, when I can start a drinking game because certain types of characters in this game have become its own trope, would it really hurt to branch things out instead of oversaturating these characters?

You want to see something different? Write it.

And yes, Khor'minos might have a king (for now) but that doesn't take away from what I was saying.

Actually, yes it does, because your argument was 'lol no kings'. The single greatest polity on the planet had a ruling emperor before the Godswar happened.

And whether there where a great deal of male rulers in Savarra's past is completely irrelevant. Because we're dealing with Savarra's present and future. If Savin wants the vast majority of rulers to be women, then that's great. But I feel that such a thing can and should be quickly explained.

And I think that you're mistaking a game for a sociopolitical tract, which it is not and was never intended to be.

Is it not implied that once you rescue his daughter Ahmri from Master Tollus that the title of chieftan would fall to her? Leaving her in charge? She's called a centaur princess after all.

Ummm, no. Go back to the village and read instead of skimming over it and picking out stupid crap to nitpick. Taldahs is still the chief of the village, Ahmri is his daughter. You may be confusing her with Atani, who does assume permanent leadership over the marefolk village because her mother isn't really in a good state to take up that responsibility due to the permahorni.

No. I don't think I will learn to live with things that unnecessarily don't make sense. Especially when the solution is so simple.

If you can't live with the worldbuilding as the devs have done it for (checks) four years and counting, plus the lead time before anything was publicly released, you might as well just stop because the game has gone that long and nobody else has complained that what CoC2 really needs is an explanation for why there are so many female leaders or why the proportion of dickgirls does not match any real-world percentages. Newsflash: Savarra is not the real world, it doesn't have to reflect anything in it that the devs don't want to.

Being interested in long-term goals isn't mutually exclusive with being evil.

No, but it means that she has a much better handle on herself than the CoC1 demons did. Demons who were, also, not written to be terribly deep characters. Hence, why she comes across as different. The writing actually acknowledges this.

And it's completely irrelevant as to who's currently working working on this game. This game is quite literally a sequel to the first game, and what's more it's set in the same universe. It's been designed from the ground up by the lead developer to be so. You want to show the main antagonist as acting abnormal?

I could direct you to a dozen posts by the devs where they say, using very small words, that CoC2 is not CoC1 and you shouldn't be using it as a model for anything in the game. I'm sorry, you are objectively wrong. It does matter who's writing it and it does not matter that it's a sorta-sequel to the earlier game. And really, 'sequel' because it's not set in the same world and it does not have any continuity of plot or (with one exception that you may never even see) of characters.

If you don't consider that grimdark, then I don't even know what to say.

I think you're making shit up (seriously, find me a source in the game for "It's seemingly common for people to be brutally hacked up, raped, set aflame, etc.". I also think you're using a very different definition of grimdark than I am. It's a pervasive tone and not one that applies to Savarra. At all. Don't believe me, here's a dev to tell you that You Are Wrong:


The irony here is that this is Tobs speaking, the writer who comes as close as any of them do to having anything approaching grimdark. And he says you're full of shit.

They're called psychopaths, and most of them are normal people like you and I.

By definition, a psychopath is not 'normal'. There's a reason they call its study 'abnormal psychology'.

Allow me to point you to my reply to them, in which I debunk the claim that there isn't a huge difference between Savarra and the real world. It might be realistic enough for you, but it's not realistic enough for me to suspend my disbelief.

Fortunately, you are a tiny minority screaming into the void.

So discounting the races who magically have be-dicked women (unexplained for no reason)

Literally. Born. That. Way. It's right there in the Codex entry for the Wyld and Frost Elves.

and the women who acquire penises by accident, let's assume that changing your genitalia is completely normal and even common-place to the common inhabitant of Savarra. And let's say for the sake of argument that both women and men have equal access to genitalia-changing alchemy/magic.

Where are the men with vaginas? Where are the hermaphroditic men?

They're an extremely niche fetish that none of the staff writers and very few community writers are interested in, so they don't show up. It's really that simple. And before you say 'but muh population numbers, they don't add up!' let me direct you to Tobs again, saying that the devs do not give a flying fuck about meeting any sort of diversity quota.

"They're literally made of magic."

Hand-waving nonsensical things away as the product of magic is so completely and utterly lazy. But according to the dryads' wiki page, at least it's implied that dryads' gentiles are divorced from gender/sex.

And yet, it's not wrong. They are literally described as nature spirits, a thing that you will not find in the real world no matter how hard you search. Ergo, Wsan doesn't have to justify why one of his dryads has a horse peen. That's how they're written. For the Nth time, deal with it snowflake.

There have been plenty of city-states throughout history that have been able to muster some kind of soldiery in times of need, see: Ancient Greece, and 18th century Germanic states. Why can't The Frost Marches unite, or try to combat this newfound threat?

Ancient Greece had city-states with citizen populations (ie, the adult males who'd be fighting) numbering in the thousands to ten of thousands. Hawkthorne has, including the surrounding farmsteads, a total population of about one thousand people. The numbers simply Do Not Work for a standing army, though if you, y'know, pay attention, you might see dialogue about the training of a militia.

They have every reason to get their collective asses into gear as quickly as possible. And even if the regional powers can't or won't unite, then what about the actual superpowers of the world? Where are their armies? I don't believe we've heard a peep from them, even though it would be simple to send pigeons with an urgent message.

They don't exist anymore. We have been told this. Repeatedly. The superpower of the world got its shit kicked in by the Godswar.

Even the living gods are taking note of Kassyra and stepping in from time-to-time. So where are their followers? Why aren't they mustering to face this clear and present danger?

Largely busy dealing with the aftermath of the aforementioned shit-kicking-in which still afflicts most of the Belharan heartland. Do everyone a favor and if you have not done so already, do the High Ground quest and pay very close attention to what everyone says about sinkholes and similar phenomenon.

I think that making everyone look attractive makes nobody stand out enough, and so the average gets pushed up and no characters stands out. No character really takes your breath away.

Because they all share the same general features.

They share the same general features in art because they're being drawn by, largely, one person these days. Savin is not a AAA game studio that can afford to hire half a dozen designers to make sure every character is completely unique.

Also, 'takes your breath away' is in the eye of the beholder.

Are you... not aware that many of these forced TFs are unlabeled? So when you click the option expecting one thing, but you get something else then that isn't the player's problem because they aren't given the appropriate information beforehand.

You literally stated that you clicked the wrong button, opting into a transformation. That's on you. You you you you. Other transformations are literally signposted for you, usually with bold text in a tooltip. If you don't bother to read it, that's not the devs' fault...

Literally the first potential sex scene in the game (with Kassyra) is replete with forced transformations that the player cannot opt out of if they didn't know beforehand. And even if they do know and don't want them, then that means no sex!

The outward transformations that Kas can inflict on you are all opt-in. You have to pick the Nod option (which tells you that it will transform you, just like the dialogue leading up to the decision) in order for her to give you breasts and alter your Femininity score. If you didn't read properly and hit the option, that is your fault.

Keeping vital information from the player is very much an issue. It's completely unnecessary. It's poor game design.

It. Is. Clearly. Signposted. And. Is. Opt. In.

 

[Resawar]

But they're also over-represented in comparison to reality.

Savarra having woman with dicks is consistent with the rest of the connected universe that being Mareth (Coc 1) and Aruna (Savin's DnD game).

grimdark

Seems like a stretch but it does hit some points while missing others completely from the Cambridge definition:
"What defines grimdark?
/ˈɡrɪm.dɑːrk/ a type of fantasy fiction (= stories that are not set in the real world)
with characters who behave in ways that are morally bad and a subject matter that is sad, hopeless, or
violent: They prefer grimdark to more uplifting genres of fiction .Jul 20, 2022 GRIMDARK | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary".

Where are the men with vaginas? Where are the hermaphroditic men?

No one seems to have written up a character for those kinds of people yet due to what seems to be a lack of interest from those who write.


Sniped ill be damned ...

 

[Acharehnus]

There is no part of telling a compelling story that requires a fucking essay about race relations, just to fit your obsession with having every possible detail explained about why people are mostly getting along.

I'm all for making a world seem more alive by having that kind of tension exist and to be able to try and mend it, which is why I'm really confused about the complaint this quote is addressing.

Like, there's plenty of racial conflict that we're confronted with in game, Kitsune VS everyone, Orcs and minotaurs have SLAVES, the far northern races are dealing with colonialism from the elves. None of that is hidden away in codex's or anything it's all pretty plainly displayed.

I'm really hoping we get a chance to address the issues frankly. Would love to be a diplomat between races, we already do a bit of it in game but MOAR.

It's all pretty maturely delivered and it can be pretty grim. They certainly don't shy away from what Orcs do to there slaves. Apart from the you know...slavery there's plenty of implied rape. I dunno how much more grim/medieval you can get.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Even if the other sentient races were somehow more tolerant than humans, humans are still human. If you’re going to show all of these races coexisting (and in relative close proximity too!) There needs to be context given as to why and how they’re coexisting. You can hand-wave it away in CoC 1 because that world is on the brink of literal collapse with the advent of multidimensional threats and demons destroying the very fabric of reality. You can hand-wave it away in TiTS because the scope is much, much bigger (the entire galaxy) and you could say that we humans have grown to become more understanding and tolerant.

Humans were one of the two main races in the Belharan Empire, which basically took over a massive part of the world before the Godswar. They ran an empire that took over a massive part of the world, and you think that that isn't conflict? Anyways, the Godswar literally destroyed many civilizations, including Belhar, which was functionally the United States of its time, and set technology back hundreds of years. It took a whole bunch of races and civilizations working together to fight them off. And you know what? Even after that, there are still conflicts, wars, and racism. We don't see much of those, because of our quest, but if you want just one shot of racism, look at the friction between Kitsune and non-kitsune.

On the subject of kingdoms - where are the kings? Oh don’t get me wrong; I love MILFs, royalty, amazons, and royal Amazonian MILFs. But isn’t it a bit strange that all of these kingdoms, cities, tribes, etc that have been encountered by The Champion in The Frost Marches have been more or less ruled by large-breasted and thunderously-thighed women? Even the few male chieftains that we encounter like Taldahs and Argoth can be supplanted by Amazonian women. It makes sense for the vesparans to have a queen (they are big sentient hornets after all) but most everyone else too? Why? Is Savarra a world where matriarchies have supplanted patriarchies somehow? If so, that’s a big enough change that it should require some more context. And even if this world is matriarchal-leaning, having nearly every ruler you meet be able to fulfill your dommy-mommy fantasies does a disservice to them all - as the relatively large number of these Amazonian royals dilutes their effect and makes each new one introduced that much less special.

Taldahs is still ruling, Khor'minos is ruled by a king, the Winter City was ruled by a King (Ryn and Alyssa's father) before he got killed by a wild boar, the Salamander kingdom Tychris is currently ruled by a king. Kingdoms seem to be ruled by whoever has a leadership position. It isn't decided by gender outside of a few instances, but you seem to think they're all ruled by queens just because a few of them have queens without kings, and you seem to think that patriarchies must be the norm, despite how Savarra very clearly doesn't play by Earth rules, and it often seems that women are just as strong and capable as men.

I’m not so sure of that, at least I’m not so sure that she should be the antagonist. Not in the way she’s been written so far.

She's come to deliver an apocalypse to this world and all other worlds she can find. Sure, it's a very sexy apocalypse, but I'm still fairly certain that her actions would be considered genocide, under the definition of it being a destruction of a nation or ethnicity's culture or way of life.

And even if you’re not attracted to her in any way, you aren’t given much reason to oppose her. Every person she has sex with, or “corrupts” seem to either have a high opinion of Kas or simply love their corruption/bimbofication. There are little to no stakes at play. She isn’t terrorizing the countryside, she isn’t unleashing hordes of minions to rape and plunder. She isn’t doing any horrific experiments.

Obviously, Eryka isn't happy. Taldahs isn't happy either, he was just desperate enough to accept it. The people being terrorized by gangs of corrupted centaurs weren't happy. The citizens of Hawkethorne who were getting raped by Alraune Effigies and corrupted Hornets weren't happy. The people fighting to preserve their cultures and ways of life from a maniacal dictator would very much love to disagree with you.

So what? What does that even mean, really? Kas herself is ostensibly soulless, yet she’s one of the most powerful, independent, and sexiest people on Savarra. She’s basically a demigod. What are the negatives to lacking a soul? The player seems to have been given every reason to be romantically involved with Kas, and almost no reason to oppose her. Even if she were to decide to rule over the whole world, would that be a terrible thing? Savarra isn’t depicted as a paradise to begin with.

Kas's world would be a fun place, and there'd be upsides, but she's decided to force her way upon everyone. Also, the negatives of lacking a soul include having your empathy lost and having your willpower wildly changed. As Farrah tells you, the loss of her Soul led to her loosing any interest or desire in anything except for merchandising and having sex. It makes people hyper-fixated on one thing that they were interested in before it was gone (alongside sex), to the exclusion of everything else.

here doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason as to who gets a dick, only that they’re written to have one. Keep in mind that trans women are actually very rare in the real world. So why are they less rare in Savarra? Context is needed.

Context isn't needed. But if you do, there are races which are hermaphroditic. Even in reality, there are hermaphroditic species, so why is it so inconceivable to you that this fantasy world has some? Aside from that, there's alchemy and magic, both of which have been shown to grow cocks and otherwise change bodies. And if what you're wondering is why so many women have dicks that they want, this isn't Earth. Why do so many people have tails? Real humans aren't generally comfortable with tails, when they even have it. But many characters in CoC2 have tails, and they're fine. So why can't you imagine this, but with cocks?

3) For a game that calls itself Corruption of Champions, there isn’t a whole lot of corruption going on. Sure, Kas is going around and corrupting national leaders (and a random knight?), but that’s usually being done offscreen. I think that one of the main draws of the first game is that it empowered the player to act saintly by supporting your lovers and friends, or completely rotten by brutally raping them and enslaving them by taking their souls. The closest The Champion has gotten to corrupting their companion in CoC 2 is by allowing the rune-inscribed armor to change Brint into Brienne. But that wasn’t so much corruption as it was making Brint feminine. This is further reinforced when The Champion has a dream of a fully-corrupted demon Brienne. I’d like to enslave and turn my companions into fully-fledged demons please!

I do want more corruption perpetrated by the champ.

4) Why is everyone so damned attractive? I know this sounds a bit nit-picky, but this is the thread for it! The artists do such a good job of making the characters come to life, but I think that they’re let down because they feel forced to draw everyone as attractive. And I know this is a byproduct of having limited resources, but the fact that whenever you see a portrait, it’s going to depict an attractive individual and that kind of takes me out of the game because I’m always left thinking: If everything I see is attractive, then is everything I don’t see attractive too? How can that be? Showing little-to-no average-looking or unattractive people skews things a bit. Because if everyone’s attractive… if everyone’s got G-cup breasts, wide hips, and heart-shaped faces then that becomes the average and nobody looks attractive because they don’t stand out.

Because we're fucking them. There are more average people which appear, but they might not stick out in your head, or you may just view them as attractive too. Because average is attractive too.

5) While I do like having consequences to my actions, I really don’t like forced transformations. It’s annoying to me to make my perfect character and then suddenly have it ruined because I accidentally clicked on the wrong choice while I was trying to dick-down a hot racoon lady. It’d be nice if we had the option to disable forced TFs in the options menu. Also, while we’re talking about options, an option to replay scenes without having to restart the game would be nice too.

The only forced TF that can happen without you taking the action is if you loose to the Tanuki Witch before beating her and telling her not to tf your cock and balls. Anything else, you opt into it.

I think that you misunderstand the point that I was trying to make. I'm not implying that trans women, or women with penises shouldn't be represented in this game, they absolutely should. But they're also over-represented in comparison to reality. It would take very little to simply explain why there is such a delta between our world and Savarra.

Why do you think that reality has to play any part with this? Catgirls are over-represented here compared to reality. Demons are over-represented here. Savarra isn't Earth. It's a separate, imaginary world. Things in this world are the way that they are because that's how they developed in the past.

Very little of the Godswar has been explained and explored in the game so far - aside from how it relates to the living gods that is. There's very little to consider, because we simply do not know the impact the Godswar had on Savarra or its inhabitants. No doubt many people died. Entire nations where set aflame. But a few centuries afterwards and everything seems to be fine and well in the world of Savarra. It would be extremely easy to create a simple codex page explaining (even in broad strokes) the impact the Godswar had - but all we have now is supposition

It is very clear what happened. Hell, there's an entire event called the Convocation of Mirrors, which 1: has massive spoilers, and 2: Talks a lot about the Godswar and what the situation was like. Even aside from that, there's ruins everywhere from the time of the Godswar, showing the ruin that it brought.

I have a thing for "muscle (dick)girls" just like Savin. In fact, I'm pretty sure Savin and I share a lot of interests - which is why I enjoy this game a whole lot. But again, when I can start a drinking game because certain types of characters in this game have become its own trope, would it really hurt to branch things out instead of oversaturating these characters?

And yes, Khor'minos might have a king (for now) but that doesn't take away from what I was saying. And whether there where a great deal of male rulers in Savarra's past is completely irrelevant. Because we're dealing with Savarra's present and future. If Savin wants the vast majority of rulers to be women, then that's great. But I feel that such a thing can and should be quickly explained.

Take a shot for every horny catgirl. Take a shot for every demon. Take a shot for every unnamed enemy in a group fight that is generally a dick.
There are kings in the present, and near past. How many queens have we actually seen so far? Two. And one tribe of horsegirls run by a horsegirl, balanced out by the centaurs run by a guy. And a tribe of orcs where you can depose a guy and replace him with a girl. We haven't seen a massive table of rulers, only a few, and a good chunk of them are male.

Is it not implied that once you rescue his daughter Ahmri from Master Tollus that the title of chieftan would fall to her? Leaving her in charge? She's called a centaur princess after all.

Not at all, did you actually read it at all? Ahmri has basically no administrative power. She's a pampered girl, and her big strong daddy isn't going to let her suddenly be shoved into a position of command like that.

Being interested in long-term goals isn't mutually exclusive with being evil.

And it's completely irrelevant as to who's currently working working on this game. This game is quite literally a sequel to the first game, and what's more it's set in the same universe. It's been designed from the ground up by the lead developer to be so. You want to show the main antagonist as acting abnormal?

Great.

Explain why.

Kas's only abnormal trait is that she seems to be developing a romantic interest in the Champ. This is explicitly pointed out, and it seems, to me at least, to be tied to her baby desire and the Champ's soul. She wants to nurture the Champ's power so she can take his soul and use it for her experiments. Her long-term goals include having a baby, but they also include utterly obliterating the way of life of many people.

Gods are real and the common person is their plaything
No such thing as modern medicine or amenities
It's seemingly common for people to be brutally hacked up, raped, set aflame, etc.
Demon invades and bends every national leader (and maybe even The Champion) under their will
If you don't consider that grimdark, then I don't even know what to say.

The gods... Okay, you really need to play through the Convocation of Mirrors.
Anyways, where the hell are you getting this from? Your claims as to what's being done to people is made up, and while there isn't modern medicine, there's magical healing spells, as demonstrated by the White Mage class and the priests/clerics that are found in the world. Many of them have a dedicated heal button, in which they completely heal you of your wounds.
And, besides. Grimdark is about tone. You could make a grimdark story about baking cupcakes with the right tone, and this game absolutely lacks a grimdark tone. Nobody is swimming in waves of pigshit, and people are generally happy-go-lucky.

Allow me to point you to my reply to them, in which I debunk the claim that there isn't a huge difference between Savarra and the real world. There's a huge, largely unexplained difference between Savarra and our world. It might be realistic enough for you, but it's not realistic enough for me to suspend my disbelief.

So discounting the races who magically have be-dicked women (unexplained for no reason) and the women who acquire penises by accident, let's assume that changing your genitalia is completely normal and even common-place to the common inhabitant of Savarra. And let's say for the sake of argument that both women and men have equal access to genitalia-changing alchemy/magic.

Where are the men with vaginas? Where are the hermaphroditic men?

You didn't debunk shit. All you said is that there's more girls with cocks than in reality. And, as you may have noted from my previous statements, Savarra isn't Earth. You don't need to explain why more girls want to have cocks than Earth women beyond saying "more Savarran women like having cocks than Earth women." I do think we need more guys with pussies though, but nobody wants to write one, and this game is ultimately fueled by what people want to write.

There have been plenty of city-states throughout history that have been able to muster some kind of soldiery in times of need, see: Ancient Greece, and 18th century Germanic states. Why can't The Frost Marches unite, or try to combat this newfound threat? They have every reason to get their collective asses into gear as quickly as possible. And even if the regional powers can't or won't unite, then what about the actual superpowers of the world? Where are their armies? I don't believe we've heard a peep from them, even though it would be simple to send pigeons with an urgent message.

Even the living gods are taking note of Kassyra and stepping in from time-to-time. So where are their followers? Why aren't they mustering to face this clear and present danger?

There aren't enough people to unite, and they're not close enough together. Plus, Kas's corruption turns groups against each other, making hornets rape lupines and centaurs molest mares.
As for why the followers of the Living Gods aren't stepping in, they are. Champions and soldiers are arriving in the Frost Marches after the Winter City, called by their gods to fight. The thing is, this game is set in the span of a few months. Mobilizing and transporting troops to a distant part of the world takes time.

 

[Tony_Redgrave]

I basically never used/interacted with Berwyn myself, but I can see why people would be disappointed that he is no longer a companion (I can also respect companion variety and we are losing our Lupine companion, and one of the few male companions).

That being said, I did like this update/quest. I enjoyed the maze concept, although I thought some of the hints could be a little... ambiguous. Initially though you had to follow the veins, then you would destroy the heart and the tower would stop shifting allowing you to explore it properly, but you end up finding the heart relatively quickly. Some of the hints were fine (the main tower being to east when you get on top of the wall, the handprint on the banner although I can't remember if the handprint is described as being purely decorative or not). Others, like the chair facing north... I thought were a bit vague. Ultimately its fine and doesn't take long to get through on repeat runs.

I enjoyed the resolution and when given the option to alter Berwyn, I went for large breasted, female Wynne without hesitation. I do have the same complaints about there seemingly being fewer scenes with Berwynne post quest, but I am assuming that this wont be the definite end to the content scene wise? I can live with knowing that more scenes will probably be added.

 

[Xellvion]

I've actually had no gripes with the game so far (besides some questionable writing quality at some points), neither did I mind Berwyn being taken out as a companion. But this new update for the first time made it so that whole sex scenes were literally word for word the same. Maybe this has happened before and I just haven't gotten to said content? Keep in mind, I probably have more to discover from this update, but god damn I clicked on Matiha excited to see her scenes and both are literally the same thing with only a change in which part is being fucked. Berwyn didn't even get a new scene on the both option (bar changing her body). I click on both, and the descriptions for a lot of parts were ctrl+c then +v'ed from the two characters being sexed up on their own. Needless to say, so far the sex has been incredibly disappointing. I'd say even annoying. Don't just copy paste scenes and interswitch them between the word ass and pussy. Write different, unique scenes. And if it's too much work or there's not enough time then just keep things to a minimum. I prefer a three paragraph long sex scene to...this. I seriously hope this doesn't become the norm in future updates. This being said, I'll keep digging and see what else comes up.

 

[Radriel]

Sometimes I make potions for TFs and they do nothing despite the wiki saying they should do something. Tried using Incubus Cum and Succubus milk to get bubble butt perk, but nothing happened even after 7 potions besides the increase in corruption. Maybe it was a bug though? but yeah, the TFs dont seem to work as "advertised"(not sure if wiki is managed by the dev team). I've been staying away from TFs because of this, scared about what they might do, but I actually really like TF items.

And I am sorry to all the Berwyn lovers. He wasn't really my cup of tea(as a companion, I basically did treat him like an NPC from the beginning), but I wouldn't have wished this outcome on anyone. Hard for the Devs and the Community. Hopefully future NPC Berwyn content is good and can take some of the sting out. I hope we can get back at least some of the old lost content in some form after converting it for NPC Berwyn. That alone should go a long way towards making things better.

 

[WolframL]

Sometimes I make potions for TFs and they do nothing despite the wiki saying they should do something. Tried using Incubus Cum and Succubus milk to get bubble butt perk, but nothing happened even after 7 potions besides the increase in corruption. Maybe it was a bug though? but yeah, the TFs dont seem to work as "advertised"(not sure if wiki is managed by the dev team). I've been staying away from TFs because of this, scared about what they might do, but I actually really like TF items.

If you tried using Incubus Cum to gain the Bubble Butt perk, the problem is that the item does not grant it but removes it if you have it. If you tried using Succubus Milk + Juicy Peach and failed to get it then it's still probably not a bug because that item can cause a lot of effects and they aren't all going to proc on the same use. I just tested it on a Champ and gained the perk after nine uses, some of which procced other effects.

The description on the wiki does look like it's inaccurate with regard to the conditions though, as it seems like it grants Bubble But only once your Champ's Butt Rating is 20 or over, rather than when it's under 20.

 

[Alypia]

Also, the best way to get Bubble Butt perk is to use Juicy Peach + Gold Egg or + Bovum Sherry. Available much earlier in the game.

 

[Kingu2]

Well I liked the quest and the whole maze concept but it's really shitty to lose Berwyn and all of his frost hound scenes. It's not hitting me too hard since I'm glad he's still in the game and we get to have a more intimate and romantic relationship with him. As long as he gets more content in the future I'll be be fine. I have to say though, I hate the way this was handled. I mean this was clearly planned far in advance and we were given no heads-up whatsoever and just had our dogboi mage abruptly pulled from the party. What an incredibly unpleasant surprise. It's like finding out you're best friends moving away the day of the move, just really shitty man.

 

[WolframL]

I mean this was clearly planned far in advance and we were given no heads-up whatsoever and just had our dogboi mage abruptly pulled from the party. What an incredibly unpleasant surprise. It's like finding out you're best friends moving away the day of the move, just really shitty man.

To quote B on this very issue:

The choice was made between 'drop it all at once, weather a shitstorm that lasts a few days, and move on' or 'drop the news immediately and weather a rainstorm that lasts fifteen months.' Even if you think it wouldn't have been that bad, the gentle stream erodes the mighty mountain, and etc.

Considering how people are reacting now, I have little doubt that those would have been a very long fifteen months.

 

[luciel1331]

Kind of off-topic from what's been discussed here so far, but I wish there is more equipment that gives a bonus to attack power. While I haven't checked every single piece of equipment, just looking at wiki and a whole new bunch of items in Khorminos, there's way abundance of equipment that gives spell power and sexiness compared to attack power. I can only think of one item on top of my head that gives a bonus to attack power which is the champion's belt. Wish there was a bit more balance in the equipment (I know combat isn't the main thing in this game but I've been enjoying making different builds with different combat styles).

Edit: Oh right the hat you get from Berwyn's quest seems to give bonus to attackpower depending on stats.

 

[The Observer]

Kind of off-topic from what's been discussed here so far, but I wish there is more equipment that gives a bonus to attack power. While I haven't checked every single piece of equipment, just looking at wiki and a whole new bunch of items in Khorminos, there's way abundance of equipment that gives spell power and sexiness compared to attack power. I can only think of one item on top of my head that gives a bonus to attack power which is the champion's belt. Wish there was a bit more balance in the equipment (I know combat isn't the main thing in this game but I've been enjoying making different builds with different combat styles).

Edit: Oh right the hat you get from Berwyn's quest seems to give bonus to attackpower depending on stats.

This is partially because many powers give bonus attack power, while bonus spellpower and sexiness comes from equipment. This may change down the line, but it's the current situation.

 

[Radriel]

If you tried using Incubus Cum to gain the Bubble Butt perk, the problem is that the item does not grant it but removes it if you have it. If you tried using Succubus Milk + Juicy Peach and failed to get it then it's still probably not a bug because that item can cause a lot of effects and they aren't all going to proc on the same use. I just tested it on a Champ and gained the perk after nine uses, some of which procced other effects.

The description on the wiki does look like it's inaccurate with regard to the conditions though, as it seems like it grants Bubble But only once your Champ's Butt Rating is 20 or over, rather than when it's under 20.

Tried using Incubus Cum to gain messy orgasm just now and it did nothing. Supposedly that was the only result in that category. Maybe there is some hidden requirement in terms of Corruption or something? I at least have resolved to do a bit of experimenting on this playthrough

And for the other times, it wasnt that something else happened, it specifically told me that nothing happened. Which was odd, because there should have been other outcomes as you said. But after the scene describing me taking the potion, and seeing my Corruption go up, the next page specifically said "nothing happened". I did get effects from consuming the TF raw, but I didnt really want most of those outcomes. I was playing on a human as well, so in theory no mixups with things like Wyld Mark or w/e. Still, I feel I need more info before complaining about it more than this. So I guess I'll report back in a few days.

 

[Pursang]

This. Is. A. Fantasy. Game. It does not need to reflect real life. Fantasy. Game.

This is true, a fantasy doesn't need to make sense.

Now, I could say: "G'lbrk of the Thun-Run-Ill halak'd thirty-two paces so that it could zz'grob-nagh-FOL." And say this is an excerpt from a fantasy book.

But I'd be a fool if I got mad at anyone for complaining that what I just said was seemingly gibberish. The best fantasy stories (like for instance, Lord of the Rings) use our own world as a starting point because it's extremely important to convey understanding through context, especially when things become unfamiliar and bizarre.

Only because you have not been paying attention. The game describes the impact of the Godswar repeatedly, there is an entire quest where you explore the ruins of a fort that fell during the Godswar and hear what it did to the region. The hub location where you begin the game and spend a lot of your time had to be rebuilt a few decades before the game begins because it took that long after the Godswar for the population levels to return to the point that they could rebuild a permanent settlement there. There is a sequence that contains some of the most significant lore in the game which tells you straight up that a major city is an absolute shell of its former glory because of the Godswar. Characters talk about how bad things are in the heartlands that bore the brunt of the fighting. That you think it hasn't been explained does not mean that it hasn't been.

I think you've forgotten the context of my original quote. I am quite aware that The Godswar caused a great deal of damage and suffering. But to my knowledge there has not been a reasonable explanation as to why there are so many spirits, magical creatures, chimeric peoples', and radically different races living in near-harmony only a few hundred years after its end.

There is no part of telling a compelling story that requires a fucking essay about race relations, just to fit your obsession with having every possible detail explained about why people are mostly getting along.

Literally nobody said or implied otherwise. In fact, I think that current race relations in the game could very easily be neatly explained by a short codex entry.

I am not at all lambasting Savin and the developers for simply not having the time to get to every single nook-and-cranny of the story. But things cannot reach their maximum potential without being challenged.

You want to see something different? Write it.

Heh. When you wrote this, I'm sure you meant it as a "haha, got you!" moment - but in fact I've been thinking about contributing in the writing department for a while now.

Years actually. Even before CoC2 was publicly released.

Thank you so much for supporting my dreams. That's so kind.

Actually, yes it does, because your argument was 'lol no kings'. The single greatest polity on the planet had a ruling emperor before the Godswar happened.

Actually, my argument was: "Why where there currently so many dommy-mommy MILF-queens in such (relative) close proximity? It comes off as wish-fulfillment rather than realistic. I love those things though, so maybe we can get an explanation as to whether this is unusual for the world of Savarra or not."

That's it.

And I think that you're mistaking a game for a sociopolitical tract, which it is not and was never intended to be.

Hmm. You keep using the word "tract" incorrectly, and it's throwing me off a bit. Perhaps you mean sociopolitical commentary?

And if you don't believe that a game about strong women, gay, bisexual, transgender people isn't sociopolitical commentary, then boy do I have an ocean in Africa I'd like to sell you.

Ummm, no. Go back to the village and read instead of skimming over it and picking out stupid crap to nitpick. Taldahs is still the chief of the village, Ahmri is his daughter. You may be confusing her with Atani, who does assume permanent leadership over the marefolk village because her mother isn't really in a good state to take up that responsibility due to the permahorni.

This is quite funny to me, because it is you that seems to have skimmed over the part where Taldahs is quite dead in one of the outcomes of The Centaur Village - so unless he's planning to rule from the grave, he's not going to be ruling anymore. And I do not recall anything to imply that the mantle of leadership wouldn't fall to Ahmri by birthright.

If you can't live with the worldbuilding as the devs have done it for (checks) four years and counting, plus the lead time before anything was publicly released, you might as well just stop because the game has gone that long and nobody else has complained that what CoC2 really needs is an explanation for why there are so many female leaders or why the proportion of dickgirls does not match any real-world percentages. Newsflash: Savarra is not the real world, it doesn't have to reflect anything in it that the devs don't want to.

Well then, I'm very glad I came along when I did, or these problems (as minor as most of them are) would have been glossed over and likely never addressed.

You're welcome.

That aside, you seem a little hung up on the fact that Savarra isn't the real world, even though you really should be hung up on why it doesn't make as much sense as the real world.

No, but it means that she has a much better handle on herself than the CoC1 demons did. Demons who were, also, not written to be terribly deep characters. Hence, why she comes across as different. The writing actually acknowledges this.

The writing never acknowledges why she's like this. Although this could be easily rectified by her giving us more of her background as we get to know her.

I could direct you to a dozen posts by the devs where they say, using very small words, that CoC2 is not CoC1 and you shouldn't be using it as a model for anything in the game. I'm sorry, you are objectively wrong. It does matter who's writing it and it does not matter that it's a sorta-sequel to the earlier game. And really, 'sequel' because it's not set in the same world and it does not have any continuity of plot or (with one exception that you may never even see) of characters.

From the wiki.

By all means, point me to a quote from Savin in which he says that CoC 2 doesn't take place in the same universe as CoC 1, or that certain characters within the game aren't from Mareth - the world that CoC 1 takes place in.

I'm waiting with baited breath.

The irony here is that this is Tobs speaking, the writer who comes as close as any of them do to having anything approaching grimdark. And he says you're full of shit.

I understand what Tobs is trying to say, but this game is in no way "light-hearted."

Unless you think that "light-hearted" = A good amount of casual rape, mass murder, spectral and magical horrors, kidnapping, some more rape, mind-control, and just so much death.

That kind of thing seems pretty grim to me. Maybe a little dark too.

By definition, a psychopath is not 'normal'. There's a reason they call its study 'abnormal psychology'.

Nope, that is not the definition of psychopathy. But I'll bite: Define normal?

But this is besides the point, whether it normal or abnormal to not have empathy is irrelevant. I don't think it's quite the drawback you make it out to be.

Fortunately, you are a tiny minority screaming into the void.

Actually, I think it's quite unfortunate that so few people have high standards. Not even high standards, as nothing I've said is unreasonable.

Although... you do seem to try to argue my every point. My "screaming" is quite clearly getting to you.

Would you consider yourself the void?

Literally. Born. That. Way. It's right there in the Codex entry for the Wyld and Frost Elves.

Could you imagine if the rest of humanity shared your worldview? "Well this virus is killing all of us, we don't know why it's killing all of us as it's seemingly come out of nowhere! Oh well! It was born that way! Better not question it!" - Probably something that you would say.

They're an extremely niche fetish that none of the staff writers and very few community writers are interested in, so they don't show up. It's really that simple. And before you say 'but muh population numbers, they don't add up!' let me direct you to Tobs again, saying that the devs do not give a flying fuck about meeting any sort of diversity quota.

I think that you're lost in the sauce a bit, as you're consistently forgetting my main points. I never asked for or expect any equality. I do not want "diversity quotas."

I want a world that makes sense. Is something overrepresented when it shouldn't be? Great! A very short codex entry would easily fix this issue - something that I'm sure that any of the writers here can do.

And yet, it's not wrong. They are literally described as nature spirits, a thing that you will not find in the real world no matter how hard you search. Ergo, Wsan doesn't have to justify why one of his dryads has a horse peen. That's how they're written. For the Nth time, deal with it snowflake.

Wsan doesn't have to justify why some dryad's have penises. Just like Savin doesn't have to justify why some Snow Elves have penises - but it'd be nice to get context as to why Savarra is different than Earth - so that we can better understand and appreciate the world.

Again, it's an easy fix.

Ancient Greece had city-states with citizen populations (ie, the adult males who'd be fighting) numbering in the thousands to ten of thousands. Hawkthorne has, including the surrounding farmsteads, a total population of about one thousand people. The numbers simply Do Not Work for a standing army, though if you, y'know, pay attention, you might see dialogue about the training of a militia.

And? Hawkethorne isn't the only settlement in The Frost Marches. And besides - an army of twenty is better than an army of zero.

They don't exist anymore. We have been told this. Repeatedly. The superpower of the world got its shit kicked in by the Godswar.

Power abhors a vacuum. Just because Belhar is gone, that doesn't mean another nation (or more!) wouldn't rise up to take its place.

Why wouldn't they? That's what's happened throughout history.

Largely busy dealing with the aftermath of the aforementioned shit-kicking-in which still afflicts most of the Belharan heartland. Do everyone a favor and if you have not done so already, do the High Ground quest and pay very close attention to what everyone says about sinkholes and similar phenomenon.

Well they can't be that busy: Keros is usually lounging about The Kitsune Den, DTF. Mallach is DTF. Lumia showed up to kick ass in The Winter City. Nareva is seemingly busy keeping her pet salamanders in a state of non-aliveness.

They seem to have plenty of time on their hands to deal with an existential threat like Kas.

They share the same general features in art because they're being drawn by, largely, one person these days. Savin is not a AAA game studio that can afford to hire half a dozen designers to make sure every character is completely unique.

Also, 'takes your breath away' is in the eye of the beholder.

Yup. I said that almost exactly in my original post. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

You literally stated that you clicked the wrong button, opting into a transformation. That's on you. You you you you. Other transformations are literally signposted for you, usually with bold text in a tooltip. If you don't bother to read it, that's not the devs' fault...

Yes. I clicked the wrong button in retrospect - because the game didn't tell me what I was getting into. Which is the game's fault - not the player's. It was NOT "sign-posted" at all.

It. Is. Clearly. Signposted. And. Is. Opt. In.

Sigh.

My brother in Christ.

You need to replay the prologue and do all of the options before you speak....

Where does THIS:


Say that THIS:

Will happen? It's literally unavoidable if you want to pick it and you don't have any foreknowledge of the consequences of it other than sex. There is not a single sign-post!

-----

Now, up 'til now I've been very polite and understanding of you - WolframL. Despite the overt aggression, despite the ad-hominem attacks. I've treated you with respect despite you not doing the same to me, but to be honest I'm growing tired of you arguing in bad faith.

So before you start pecking away at your keyboard in the darkness of your room, reconsider what you're about to say.

Less I involve the admins.

If I where you, I'd take the L and move on.

 

[Rudra72]

Heh. When you wrote this, I'm sure you meant it as a "haha, got you!" moment - but in fact I've been thinking about contributing in the writing department for a while now.

Years actually. Even before CoC2 was publicly released.

Thank you so much for supporting my dreams. That's so kind.

I will say this, Pursang - this part rings kind of hollow if you havent so much so as made a submission, forget getting something in game.

That said, I'm staying out of the rest of this conflict - you and Wolfram have differing ideas on what this game should be and the scope of what its writing should cover, and I have no interest in adding to that by stating my own views.

 

[Radriel]

It is true that Kasyrra morphs you without much signposting. The champion doesnt really know much about what is gonna happen and so it isnt written that something might happen from that perspective. And the options dont have any out of character style signage either. So if you liked small breasts, but wanna get fucked by a dommy demon, you're gonna end up with D's up there and will need potions to counteract it after the fact. And I will mention that you can in fact reverse any of the changes done here. Only very specific TFs cannot be reversed in some way. I can see how this can be annoying to some players, though.

Explanations for why Kas is "different" from other demons is actually explained in game, though it is locked behind being friendly/pursuing Kas. She actually goes into a lot of detail about where she came from and what happened and how she got here and why she is different from a lot of Demons. You actually get to ask her what Demons even are and she tries to explain it. Play through a file where she tells you, cuz its pretty interesting.

And I similarly feel the world has been explained sufficiently. Hawkethorne and settlements like it are only very recently coming into existence. There was tons of conflict beforehand. The orcs have been a raiding culture for a long time now(this is stated literally in character creation) and the Lupines have been explained as being part of wandering tribes. Ad-hoc Mercenary companies are/were the primary form of "law" enforcement. The Local ruler does try to keep things together by hiring mercs actually, but everything is falling apart too rapidly and those same mercs often turn to banditry themselves because there is no real cultural tradition of law and order anymore. There are very personal reasons why the Baron here specifically doesnt take a more personal approach despite being somewhat powerful that i wont spoiler here. Things are(or at least were) getting better before Kas arrived, but the world is simply not in a position to unite against her.

On the response of the Gods, I can say that they are definitely active, but they have bigger fish to fry than Kas. They do make moves against her though. The feeling I got was that they would actually be doing even more, but the Champion seems at least potentially up to the task enough that they are watching how well you do before committing further. Their power isn't actually infinite and they keep mentioning an "Intruder" they are fighting against(which isn't Kas). They are not omnipresent or omniscient(not that kind of god). A lot of this stuff still seems to be in the realm of foreshadowing though. I think we need to progress the plot more to see more of what is happening behind the scenes here. I think its also important to keep in mind that Kas is kinda at the level of regional problem at the start of the game as well. The Frost Marches arent exactly a huge deal in the grand scheme of things to the gods. And they have zero frame of reference for what level of threat Kasyrra potentially could be. As far as I can tell, they dont have any knowledge of Kasyrra's world.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Now, up 'til now I've been very polite and understanding of you - WolframL. Despite the overt aggression, despite the ad-hominem attacks. I've treated you with respect despite you not doing the same to me, but to be honest I'm growing tired of you arguing in bad faith.

So before you start pecking away at your keyboard in the darkness of your room, reconsider what you're about to say.

Less I involve the admins.

If I where you, I'd take the L and move on.

I'm tired of this shit. The conversation is going nowhere, and to be quite frank, it needs to end needs to end. You made a good point on the lack of signposting for certain transformations, but otherwise, you've been demanding explanations for why more female characters have cocks than real people (why do you think it needs more explaining? The codex is written from an in-universe perspective, why should there be a line in them saying "yeah, people here are generally much less constrained by gender and sex than reality" when reality isn't in there?) and other shit that either doesn't need an explanation or which has several reasons already in the game, and at every turn you do everything you can to ignore the points being presented to you unless you think you can win a point. You're not winning shit, and neither is anyone else in this conversation. You're treating it like a competitive sports match and trying to "win" and act all tough and shit, and while debates can be fun, this is just frustrating. So please just shut up. This extends to everyone else too. There's no reason to keep dragging this out.

 

[Pursang]

Apologies for the double-reply, I wasn't sure if there was a max word-count for each post.

Humans were one of the two main races in the Belharan Empire, which basically took over a massive part of the world before the Godswar. They ran an empire that took over a massive part of the world, and you think that that isn't conflict? Anyways, the Godswar literally destroyed many civilizations, including Belhar, which was functionally the United States of its time, and set technology back hundreds of years. It took a whole bunch of races and civilizations working together to fight them off. And you know what? Even after that, there are still conflicts, wars, and racism. We don't see much of those, because of our quest, but if you want just one shot of racism, look at the friction between Kitsune and non-kitsune.

I'm quite aware of Belhar and its role in The Godswar. However, what isn't clear is why there is no replacement for the Belharan Empire after hundreds of years.

Nor is it clear that there have been much if any conflicts, wars, or racism. No evidence seems to suggest any large scale wars at least. And while it's true that some people have a problem with kitsune (I feel like it's unfair to compare the kitsune to any other race, since they're so fleshed-out) it isn't too evident that it's a pervasive problem.

After all, I can walk down Hawkethorne's main street, or walk into Khor'minos and nobody seems to raise their eyebrows when I'm hand-in-hand with my kitsune-wife.

Taldahs is still ruling, Khor'minos is ruled by a king, the Winter City was ruled by a King (Ryn and Alyssa's father) before he got killed by a wild boar, the Salamander kingdom Tychris is currently ruled by a king. Kingdoms seem to be ruled by whoever has a leadership position. It isn't decided by gender outside of a few instances, but you seem to think they're all ruled by queens just because a few of them have queens without kings, and you seem to think that patriarchies must be the norm, despite how Savarra very clearly doesn't play by Earth rules, and it often seems that women are just as strong and capable as men.

Taldahs is only ruling if you let him live and his only descendent is female. The Winter City is currently ruled by a queen. I acknowledged Khor'minos has a king, but I must have missed the part where it said that Tychris had a king. The vast majority of national/regional/tribal rulers so far encountered in the story have been female.

And I am very much aware that Savarra is not Earth, but since patriarchies are very much the norm for Earth, it wouldn't be a bad idea to explain why matriarchies are seemingly the norm in Savarrra. Or at least The Frost Marches.

Kas's world would be a fun place, and there'd be upsides, but she's decided to force her way upon everyone. Also, the negatives of lacking a soul include having your empathy lost and having your willpower wildly changed. As Farrah tells you, the loss of her Soul led to her loosing any interest or desire in anything except for merchandising and having sex. It makes people hyper-fixated on one thing that they were interested in before it was gone (alongside sex), to the exclusion of everything else.

Is Kas forcing her will upon everyone really all that much different than a king forcing his will upon his people? Where people happy when the Belharan Empire forced its will upon its subjects? What about the living gods? Is everyone okay with them?

Would the people of Savarra really care who's holding the whip?

Kas doesn't come off as hyper-fixated on anything. One day she's corrupting a queen, the next, she'll have a date with you, then she might sneak in somewhere, disguised. She doesn't seem too fixated on anything. Not even her goals.

She's come to deliver an apocalypse to this world and all other worlds she can find. Sure, it's a very sexy apocalypse, but I'm still fairly certain that her actions would be considered genocide, under the definition of it being a destruction of a nation or ethnicity's culture or way of life.

Yes, this is exactly my issue. She comes to dominate, to take control of Savarra - to shape it as she sees fit. But her actions don't line up with her personality.

Romance-path Kas is too soft, too endearing, she reads like she's not fully committed to her own plans. That she's not committed to being a demon. It makes her come off as wishy-washy.

Obviously, Eryka isn't happy. Taldahs isn't happy either, he was just desperate enough to accept it. The people being terrorized by gangs of corrupted centaurs weren't happy. The citizens of Hawkethorne who were getting raped by Alraune Effigies and corrupted Hornets weren't happy. The people fighting to preserve their cultures and ways of life from a maniacal dictator would very much love to disagree with you.

Are people being terrorized? Because the citizens of Hawkethorne, The Kitsune Den, Khor'minos, etc. Don't seem to bothered about what's going on. Because you're right, there are people being raped, killed, transformed against their will - but The Frost Marches is largely reacting to it all with a collective shrug.

Context isn't needed. But if you do, there are races which are hermaphroditic. Even in reality, there are hermaphroditic species, so why is it so inconceivable to you that this fantasy world has some? Aside from that, there's alchemy and magic, both of which have been shown to grow cocks and otherwise change bodies. And if what you're wondering is why so many women have dicks that they want, this isn't Earth. Why do so many people have tails? Real humans aren't generally comfortable with tails, when they even have it. But many characters in CoC2 have tails, and they're fine. So why can't you imagine this, but with cocks?

I think it's important because they're humanoid first, extra bits second. You see, there's an established "inner-logic" within the game in regards to the sentient races: They all have humanoid features, two arms, a head, a tongue, a nose, a penis and/or vagina... even reptiloid races like the salamanders have breasts.

So as you can see, most of the races are designed to be physically attractive to us humans - which is why they consistently have these features - human features. And while it's true that not every race has wings, or tails, or claws, etc. When so many women have penises (and no men do) it comes off as horny wish-fulfillment, and nothing more.

Again, I understand that people want to write what they want to write. And I'm only bringing this up because it can be very easily explained but isn't.

Because we're fucking them. There are more average people which appear, but they might not stick out in your head, or you may just view them as attractive too. Because average is attractive too.

I would almost bet money that the people you find average other people might find attractive.

As I've said before, I'd just like a little bit of ugliness to make the beautiful art really pop.

The only forced TF that can happen without you taking the action is if you loose to the Tanuki Witch before beating her and telling her not to tf your cock and balls. Anything else, you opt into it.

I consider any unlabeled or sudden TFs as forced TFs (see: Prologue Kas,) Because the player has no foreknowledge of it, and if they don't want the TF they need to reload or pray that there's an easy way to change it back. Meaning that it's impossible for the player to not get transformed with foreknowledge.

Why do you think that reality has to play any part with this? Catgirls are over-represented here compared to reality. Demons are over-represented here. Savarra isn't Earth. It's a separate, imaginary world. Things in this world are the way that they are because that's how they developed in the past.

Are they though? We humans created catgirls. We created demons. They exist in the pages of books that have been written on them. By the art created by them.

Catgirls and demons are very much a part of Earth.

We know exactly how they where developed on Earth, but we cannot say the same for how they where developed on Savarra.

It is very clear what happened. Hell, there's an entire event called the Convocation of Mirrors, which 1: has massive spoilers, and 2: Talks a lot about the Godswar and what the situation was like. Even aside from that, there's ruins everywhere from the time of the Godswar, showing the ruin that it brought.

Yes. I know. Vast death and destruction.

But that doesn't resolve the questions I put foreword: Why there are so many sentient races living in close proximity. Why there are so many women with different biology.

However. A quick codex entry linking the two together could be easily done.

Take a shot for every horny catgirl. Take a shot for every demon. Take a shot for every unnamed enemy in a group fight that is generally a dick.
There are kings in the present, and near past. How many queens have we actually seen so far? Two. And one tribe of horsegirls run by a horsegirl, balanced out by the centaurs run by a guy. And a tribe of orcs where you can depose a guy and replace him with a girl. We haven't seen a massive table of rulers, only a few, and a good chunk of them are male.

"A good chunk of them are male."

Who? Name names. Name every single living male national/regional/tribal leader that we meet that doesn't get removed and replaced by a woman.

Not at all, did you actually read it at all? Ahmri has basically no administrative power. She's a pampered girl, and her big strong daddy isn't going to let her suddenly be shoved into a position of command like that.

"Her big strong daddy" can't do much if he's dead, now can he?

Kas's only abnormal trait is that she seems to be developing a romantic interest in the Champ. This is explicitly pointed out, and it seems, to me at least, to be tied to her baby desire and the Champ's soul. She wants to nurture the Champ's power so she can take his soul and use it for her experiments. Her long-term goals include having a baby, but they also include utterly obliterating the way of life of many people.

The fact that a soulless demon that lacks empathy can have romantic feelings for anyone is massively abnormal. At least in comparison to the other demons we've been introduced so far.

The gods... Okay, you really need to play through the Convocation of Mirrors.
Anyways, where the hell are you getting this from? Your claims as to what's being done to people is made up, and while there isn't modern medicine, there's magical healing spells, as demonstrated by the White Mage class and the priests/clerics that are found in the world. Many of them have a dedicated heal button, in which they completely heal you of your wounds.
And, besides. Grimdark is about tone. You could make a grimdark story about baking cupcakes with the right tone, and this game absolutely lacks a grimdark tone. Nobody is swimming in waves of pigshit, and people are generally happy-go-lucky.

I've done the Convocation of Mirrors - which just reinforces my point about them being "real."

And sure, there are healing spells. Alchemical treatments, the like. White mages are great and all.

Oh. But there's this thing called a black mage that can literally set you on fire with the flick of a wrist. Who can summon beings of pure chaos and fire. Who can move earth, and call down lightning on their foes.

So as much good as a white mage might do, a black mage could do as much bad.

And you're right, grim dark is about tone. Nobody seems to care that people are raped or murdered and the like in this "light-hearted" game.

You didn't debunk shit. All you said is that there's more girls with cocks than in reality. And, as you may have noted from my previous statements, Savarra isn't Earth. You don't need to explain why more girls want to have cocks than Earth women beyond saying "more Savarran women like having cocks than Earth women." I do think we need more guys with pussies though, but nobody wants to write one, and this game is ultimately fueled by what people want to write.

I did debunk exactly what I said though. Your personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant.

And you seem to be skipping over the fact that there are entire races with women randomly having penises. There is no "more Savarran women having cocks than Earth women." The Savarran people have a shared ancestry, a common history. Why not go into that history? Why not delve into it and explore it? Savarra has a potentially rich history that's begging to be tapped.

Are you telling me you're not the least bit curious?

This is what writers do. They write. They don't need people to simply hand-wave things away unnecessarily when writing can be done.

There aren't enough people to unite, and they're not close enough together. Plus, Kas's corruption turns groups against each other, making hornets rape lupines and centaurs molest mares.
As for why the followers of the Living Gods aren't stepping in, they are. Champions and soldiers are arriving in the Frost Marches after the Winter City, called by their gods to fight. The thing is, this game is set in the span of a few months. Mobilizing and transporting troops to a distant part of the world takes time.

"There aren't enough people to unite."

[Citation needed]

"Mobilizing and transporting troops to a distant part of the world takes time."

So what's stopping The Champion from using The Ways Between to quickly bring in help? Instead of chasing Kas around, why aren't we going to the major cities and at least making sure that everyone knows that things are going down in The Frost Marches?

I will say this, Pursang - this part rings kind of hollow if you havent so much so as made a submission, forget getting something in game.

Heh.

I've literally written pages of responses just to prove a point. It's bold of you to assume that I can't or won't write.

 

[Pursang]

I'm tired of this shit. The conversation is going nowhere, and to be quite frank, it needs to end needs to end. You made a good point on the lack of signposting for certain transformations, but otherwise, you've been demanding explanations for why more female characters have cocks than real people (why do you think it needs more explaining? The codex is written from an in-universe perspective, why should there be a line in them saying "yeah, people here are generally much less constrained by gender and sex than reality" when reality isn't in there?) and other shit that either doesn't need an explanation or which has several reasons already in the game, and at every turn you do everything you can to ignore the points being presented to you unless you think you can win a point. You're not winning shit, and neither is anyone else in this conversation. You're treating it like a competitive sports match and trying to "win" and act all tough and shit, and while debates can be fun, this is just frustrating. So please just shut up. This extends to everyone else too. There's no reason to keep dragging this out.

On the contrary. I'm neither demanding anything, nor am I ignoring any points brought up by anyone - you included.

I am merely stating my opinion - which, I would be the first to say is imperfect.

But if anyone can change my mind, I would welcome it.

 

[Ria Brew]

These responses are getting wildly long and the subject is going in circles, can we please move on?