Why do a lot of people dislike the kitsune so much?
- Thread starter Lostname475
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Yeah, her. She's great, can't wait to get more content with her.
You know you can just ask him, right?
He's not some professional dev that has to go through a PR department before making statements, he's a porn writer who posts on these forums and in the discord. You don't need to speculate, if you're confused about his motives or the nature of a character then just be an adult and ask him directly.
That's implying he hasn't seen this thread already, which I'm sure he has. If he felt the need to chime in on anything then he's perfectly able to do so. personally I enjoy the kitsune content so his motivations for writing Kinu don't bother me regardless of what they are. Its not like I'm foaming at the mouth for an answer, I just enjoy the discussion.
The problem isn't the weeby-japanese culture. The problem is kiyoko quest and how it completely makes the PC into an asshole and the whole den is outright a better experience without engaging with kiyoko. Kiyoko's quest forces "deadbeat parent" on you and just generally makes you feel like you have no actual agency and clashes with the rest of the content.
As someone whose primary file has never actually gone to find her, I think the den really isn't even particularly unpleasant - there's nothing wrong with being recognized as an outsider to their culture and they treat you politely / become a friendly enough faction. When "saving their princess" makes the entire content sour, when it's the worse option, you've really messed up. Because without that, you can make friends with kohaku, earn the respect of komari through helping rindo, and nakano is slowly seeming to warm to you (though I doubt that will ever develop further). It feels normal, positive even. I like how I'm winning over this mistreated colony of a foreign nation, though there could be more interactivity regarding the main quest and world situation. Add in the kiyoko content and the entire perspective changes. And how kinu is handled is just bad awful bad.
As someone whose primary file has never actually gone to find her, I think the den really isn't even particularly unpleasant - there's nothing wrong with being recognized as an outsider to their culture and they treat you politely / become a friendly enough faction. When "saving their princess" makes the entire content sour, when it's the worse option, you've really messed up. Because without that, you can make friends with kohaku, earn the respect of komari through helping rindo, and nakano is slowly seeming to warm to you (though I doubt that will ever develop further). It feels normal, positive even. I like how I'm winning over this mistreated colony of a foreign nation, though there could be more interactivity regarding the main quest and world situation. Add in the kiyoko content and the entire perspective changes. And how kinu is handled is just bad awful bad.
All because TOBS decided to be spiteful for some reason.
I like the idea of having a mostly wholesome relationship with a beautiful floof, but always disliked how getting her pregnant was a prerequisite to access her. If those things aren't to your liking, well you're down a companion. As for the Kitsune den, I barely spent much time there. I do agree that it feels like its own bubble. I like the art for the Kitsune's but I think most of the characters annoyed me more than anything.
I dislike the relationship between Kiyoko an Kinu post freeing them, but that might be because we don't have a resolution (assuming we will even get one).
(If anyone harms Rindo though, I will find them)
I know it’s a bit late but let me add something real quick: there’s a bit of irony in his life compared to some PCs (depending on what kind of PC you want your playthrough to be)
Sure you are a Kitsune now, most will will refer to you as much but just as Kiyoko said, there will aways be a certain degree of animosity due to us not being born a Kitsune.
The same is true to Nakano since he wants to feel recognized by the ones in the Old country, they however treat HIM (and almost if not all the Kitsune on this side of the world) as outcasts mostly because they are.
The KEY difference is that WE don’t really care and only want the recognition and love from our family (which is stated in a Picnic with Kiyoko)
So yea, I don’t have much gripe with Nakano. Kinu will fix him (he just needs a big scare lol)
I honestly think that there should be a way for our character to influence the kitsune somewhat. At least let there be a way to get rid of that condescending attitude of theirs somehow.
I'm alright with the kitsune content, but I do agree that it feels disconnected from the world. I think interactions between Kiyoko and companions/NPC's outside the den would be a good start to rectify that.
If I remember right she steps down from politics, so in my opinion there's no real reason she can't be at the Frost Hound like the others. Etheryn is there, and she's the queen of Winter City.
The player could get scenes when walking into the tavern of, say; Kiyoko discussing politics with Etheryn, Kiyoko having a petty argument with Arona, or Kiyoko and Gwyn talking about how much they enjoy/ed being pregnant (which could lead to a threesome?).
Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it.
If I remember right she steps down from politics, so in my opinion there's no real reason she can't be at the Frost Hound like the others. Etheryn is there, and she's the queen of Winter City.
The player could get scenes when walking into the tavern of, say; Kiyoko discussing politics with Etheryn, Kiyoko having a petty argument with Arona, or Kiyoko and Gwyn talking about how much they enjoy/ed being pregnant (which could lead to a threesome?).
Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it.
CasualAntlerEnjoyer
Well-Known Member
There's a whole lot of factors going into this one. People have likely already covered all of them by now, but I'm too lazy to read chat so here's some of them just in case.
1: Tobs is quite the controversial individual who deals with life in the way he does, and his heavy involvement with the content often creates that association.
2: Heavy thematic contrast/disconnect from the rest of the game's world and content.
3: Playing into that last one, the lack of influence the player themselves has over a lot of said content can often make it feel like it's just there, not really serving any purpose.
4: Simple fact that if someone doesn't like the more manga/anime/eastern flavored media, it's a pretty easy for it to just stumble and not grab interest.
5: There's a lot of it, so anyone who doesn't like it might feel like it's all just this huge waste.
6: On social-sites/apps like this forum and especially the discord server, people are downright obssesed with the content and often only talk about it, don't know how things are now but not too long ago the discord was almost only kitsune talk with members frequently derailing any attempts at talking about other topics to bring it back to more echo-chambering about kitsune stuff, leading to some that just were fairly neutral towards the game to become outright resentful and bitter because there was no break from it.
7: They find the soul sucking stuff a severe turn-off.
Whilst your mileage may vary on whether the negative responses are reasonable in of themselves, there being some heavier discontent here compared to other content is not all too surprising with all the factors at play. It is what it is.
1: Tobs is quite the controversial individual who deals with life in the way he does, and his heavy involvement with the content often creates that association.
2: Heavy thematic contrast/disconnect from the rest of the game's world and content.
3: Playing into that last one, the lack of influence the player themselves has over a lot of said content can often make it feel like it's just there, not really serving any purpose.
4: Simple fact that if someone doesn't like the more manga/anime/eastern flavored media, it's a pretty easy for it to just stumble and not grab interest.
5: There's a lot of it, so anyone who doesn't like it might feel like it's all just this huge waste.
6: On social-sites/apps like this forum and especially the discord server, people are downright obssesed with the content and often only talk about it, don't know how things are now but not too long ago the discord was almost only kitsune talk with members frequently derailing any attempts at talking about other topics to bring it back to more echo-chambering about kitsune stuff, leading to some that just were fairly neutral towards the game to become outright resentful and bitter because there was no break from it.
7: They find the soul sucking stuff a severe turn-off.
Whilst your mileage may vary on whether the negative responses are reasonable in of themselves, there being some heavier discontent here compared to other content is not all too surprising with all the factors at play. It is what it is.
It's chilled a bit (There's two CoC2-related servers). There's still a few vocal folks that like to enthuse about their foxen interest, but most of it is random, game-related chatter.
Why do people talk about kitsune so much?, asks 7 page thread about kitsune
In my case I just like Kitsune ever since I first watched Inuyasha by accident when I was young, it’s also one the first anime I ever watched too so it’s like when someone gets attached to the first thing they lay their eyes on it since they don’t know anything else
Kitsune are foxes and foxes fall under the "Canidae" biological family, colloquially referred to as dogs.
Inuyaha was literally the very first anime I was ever exposed to and I am also a degenerate floof lover, I think I'm seeing a trend here.....
Do you remember that commercial that adult swim had which was just a supercut of the characters yelling "Inuyasha!" and "Kagome!" repeatedly? Good times lmao
I can't speak for anyone else but for me it's like this:
1. The kitsune usually talk down to you. There are lots of questions they won't answer in a very satisfying way, and if you ask to know more, they act like you're simply incapable of understanding because you're an outsider and won't tell you. Even if you become their god's champion, the only thing that changes is that they're more polite as they tell you to go away.
2. Adult Kinu is awful whichever way she turns out. Hime's entire personality revolves around pleasing people and she's so formal and "proper" that she just comes off feeling so fake. She doesn't feel like a person, to say nothing of her shit taste in men. Inari actually does feel like a person and her boyfriend is a cool guy, but she's got the attitude of a complete and utter bitch. There's no middle ground between the two and she makes it needlessly difficult to like her, the player's own daughter and the center of much of the kitsune content.
3. If you ever say that something can be improved, that something should be worked on, for example inari and Kiyoko's relationship, they just reply with "it can't be helped". That's it. They just give up and shut you down. They don't try to help themselves and they effectively forbid you from trying to help them. Even if you're Keros's champion, you're just as powerless.
4. There's just nothing there for the player. The only quests the kitsune have are mindless fetch quests and a pointless task to destroy a bunch of puppets. The player doesn't have any influence or impact. Really the pc is just a vehicle to deliver Kiyoko and Kinu and serve as their accessory, if you're lucky, and if you refuse to play that role then you're relegated to errand boy at best and sex tourist at worst.
5. Any quests or tasks that seem like they actually might have some impact on the kitsune are reserved for Kinu. If you care enough to see what happens in the kitsune's story, you have to effectively remove yourself from it and forfeit the role of protagonist to someone else. When you briefly play as Gweyr in the winter wolf quest, you know that you'll regain control and go on to play a role in the story. But when it involves Kinu, it's a quest and a story where you, the player, the character who this entire game ostensibly exists for, do not factor into it and don't matter. You're completely excluded. You're an afterthought that doesn't pop up until the end of the quest when the writer remembers you and then frames it as you being told of something that happened in your absence as a weak way of trying to tie it back to CoC.
All in all, the way that there's so little there for the actual player while anything interesting is made for someone else makes it feel as though the kitsune don't belong in this game. It's like they were originally created for a completely different game, someone's precious little pet project, and for whatever reason that game fell through but the writer refused to let it go, so they just shoved it into CoC2. Now they're trying to keep developing their game as they originally envisioned it despite the fact that it now exists inside of a different framework that, for the most part, it only has the most tenuous connection to.
IMO Tetsuya is the only good thing about the kitsune. But like I said, this is just my own opinion. Good on those who are able to get some fun out of them when I can't.
1. The kitsune usually talk down to you. There are lots of questions they won't answer in a very satisfying way, and if you ask to know more, they act like you're simply incapable of understanding because you're an outsider and won't tell you. Even if you become their god's champion, the only thing that changes is that they're more polite as they tell you to go away.
2. Adult Kinu is awful whichever way she turns out. Hime's entire personality revolves around pleasing people and she's so formal and "proper" that she just comes off feeling so fake. She doesn't feel like a person, to say nothing of her shit taste in men. Inari actually does feel like a person and her boyfriend is a cool guy, but she's got the attitude of a complete and utter bitch. There's no middle ground between the two and she makes it needlessly difficult to like her, the player's own daughter and the center of much of the kitsune content.
3. If you ever say that something can be improved, that something should be worked on, for example inari and Kiyoko's relationship, they just reply with "it can't be helped". That's it. They just give up and shut you down. They don't try to help themselves and they effectively forbid you from trying to help them. Even if you're Keros's champion, you're just as powerless.
4. There's just nothing there for the player. The only quests the kitsune have are mindless fetch quests and a pointless task to destroy a bunch of puppets. The player doesn't have any influence or impact. Really the pc is just a vehicle to deliver Kiyoko and Kinu and serve as their accessory, if you're lucky, and if you refuse to play that role then you're relegated to errand boy at best and sex tourist at worst.
5. Any quests or tasks that seem like they actually might have some impact on the kitsune are reserved for Kinu. If you care enough to see what happens in the kitsune's story, you have to effectively remove yourself from it and forfeit the role of protagonist to someone else. When you briefly play as Gweyr in the winter wolf quest, you know that you'll regain control and go on to play a role in the story. But when it involves Kinu, it's a quest and a story where you, the player, the character who this entire game ostensibly exists for, do not factor into it and don't matter. You're completely excluded. You're an afterthought that doesn't pop up until the end of the quest when the writer remembers you and then frames it as you being told of something that happened in your absence as a weak way of trying to tie it back to CoC.
All in all, the way that there's so little there for the actual player while anything interesting is made for someone else makes it feel as though the kitsune don't belong in this game. It's like they were originally created for a completely different game, someone's precious little pet project, and for whatever reason that game fell through but the writer refused to let it go, so they just shoved it into CoC2. Now they're trying to keep developing their game as they originally envisioned it despite the fact that it now exists inside of a different framework that, for the most part, it only has the most tenuous connection to.
IMO Tetsuya is the only good thing about the kitsune. But like I said, this is just my own opinion. Good on those who are able to get some fun out of them when I can't.
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Omg this...
This is what was on my brain just couldn't put it into words. Even if you become Keros's champion which seems to be a high position in itself you still have no sway in your family's life. Your just a trophy husband with no input pretty much. It's weird comparing Freya relationship to kinus. Your just along for the ride which given this is supposed to be a game I'd hope the ride would be a railroaded.
but now you also have a "Kero's champion" sticker on your head
"maintain dignity in the face of an unavoidable tragedy or injustice, particularly when the circumstances are beyond their control"
"Historically, it has been applied to situations in which masses of Japanese people as a whole have been made to endure during World War II, including the Allied occupation of Japan and the internment of Japanese Americans and Japanese Canadians."
The phrases "beyond their control" and "unavoidable" really stick out to me here. As it applies to the majority of the kitsune as far as the player sees, they're pretty much just laying down and giving in instead of even trying to gain some semblance of control over issues that are within their domain. Their apathy really sticks out when everyone else around them is actively trying to improve things even in the face of a demon invasion. For example, regarding the rift between the frost elves and the druids, Ryn could sit back and say, "it can't be helped", but she's actively trying to fix their relationship instead of giving up on it, even while preparing to go to war against demons. Compare this to Kiyoko and inari Kinu refusing to so much as try to work on their relationship, which is a large part of kitsune content and it should be clear what I mean.
Also, I'm pretty sure that internment camps aren't comparable to the aforementioned mother and daughter giving up on their relationship, but maybe that's just me.
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The level of wrong this is and the amount of times this is said, tells me that man, you dont read.
If it's said that often, then maybe it's not that players can't read, it's that what they're reading is poorly written.
Could really do without people justifying CoC2 kitsune behavior by pointing at their understanding of Japanese culture....especially claiming a PHRASE is indicative of their entire culture like on this page.
It's just silly at this point.
It's just silly at this point.
I'm not sure which part is wrong. Arguably the trophy husband I guess because as they all make clear you hold no real value to the Kitsune. Even as Keros champion you don't serve any actual purpose so far.
Because you damn well get no say in anything with Kiyoku. Except the choice of not interacting with her at all I suppose.
From the TV Tropes page:
One attribute highly prized in Japanese society is that of "gaman", or "endurance". Gaman is the quality of enduring what seems unbearable with dignity and grace. The idea basically is that if there's something unpleasant around you, it's better to tough it out in an act of self-sacrifice rather than act immediately to change it. It's similar to Calvin's dad's belief in the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes that Misery Builds Character.
This is the source of many instances of Values Dissonance in imported/translated Japanese works. Americans, to put it politely, are very familiar with complaining — the nation was founded on a rebellion, and free speech the ability to speak one's mind is highly valued and constantly taught. A key part of America's self identity is that it is populated with people who acted to make a better life for themselves rather than accept what they had. The Japanese, however, will have a Salaryman suffer in silence when his boss demands more hours and his wife screams at him because of a miscarriage, or a mother suffer in silence as she keeps her husband's affair with the neighbor a secret while the child asks where Daddy is, or parents quietly enable their Hikikomori adult child rather than kick him out, stop doing things for him, or demand that he get a job. To Westerners, this would be denounced as fatalism, the trait of Apathetic Citizens.
Okay? And I was quoting the Wikipedia page. Also if this mode of thinking is that much of a cause of values dissonance, should it have been put into something with an audience that, I assume, is predominantly made up of westerners? Just because it's something that exists irl doesn't mean it needs to exist in the game too. As far as CoC is concerned, in practice it seems to serve as more of an excuse as to why the kitsune don't really do anything.