[Complete] Nilin, Nightmarish Tentacle Monsters (Uveto VII)

[Nik_van_Rijn]

SMP is heavily outclassed by Uvetian energy weapons. Basically, SMP bonus grants ≈38% damage output. And it, again, is an optional perk.

It's twice as much for anyone with Volley perk. And yes, the lack of high-power Kinetic weapons is a problem IMO, but that has nothing to do with Froggy or this encounter.

What about melee techs? My currently favorite tech build - melee energy weapon and a slut ray gun. It lacks active skills, but effectively gives three damage types (from melee - kinetic and either burning or electrical, from ranged - lust). This is jack-of-all-trades combo, able to deal, more or less efficiently, with any enemy. So, I have to carry another kinetic damage source despite already having one?

Melee Techies are currently a deliberate self-gimping choice. And you can't really tell that your character has a kinetic weapon if said weapons have like 75+% of their base damage being burning/electric. So it's entirely reasonable to suggest having a dedicated kinetic weapon as a spare.

Yes, it should, but it should also have a limit to its ability to absorb. It's not an elemental, after all, it's a living creature. So it shouldn't be difficult to feed it until it becomes sick, or just burn it with overwhelming energy amount.

I have already agreed that the concept of a separate meter that PC will be able to overcome in order to incapacitate this creature sounds like a good idea, although it might be harder to do so than to just HP KO it. Ultimately, it's up to @Frogapus and then the devs to decide if they want to go that route.

Oh, also, I want to have a living armor made of this creature's flesh. There is no reason for energy weapons to exist in a world where it is possible to have 100% immunity to them.

By that logic, no kinetic small arms should exist in TiTS-verse because people can either become Galotians or wear one. Yes, 100% immunity to anything is an inherently gamey concept, but TiTS' HP, resistances and Defense rating system is far from realistic anyway. Such fringe case monsters whose weird internal composition grants them immunity from X or Y is a venerated Sci-Fi and RPG trope, and it's not inherently bad IMO.

 

[Etis]

Melee Techies are currently a deliberate self-gimping choice. And you can't really tell that your character has a kinetic weapon if said weapons have like 75+% of their base damage being burning/electric. So it's entirely reasonable to suggest having a dedicated kinetic weapon as a spare.





 

Choosing tech is self-gimping choice, to be honest. Melee tech is not much worse than ranged, since tech barely has anything to lose.


It's a huge difference between "you are only 25% effective" and "you can't do anything at all". And TiTS general rule is "if you can't win by your primary weapon then use lust", not "switch to another".

It's twice as much for anyone with Volley perk.





 

If we are using active skills, we can as well use disruptor. But techs have a huge energy problem, so any energy-relying tactic is out of question for non-boss fights.

By that logic, no kinetic small arms should exist in TiTS-verse because people can either become Galotians or wear one. Yes, 100% immunity to anything is an inherently gamey concept, but TiTS' HP, resistances and Defense rating system is far from realistic anyway. Such fringe case monsters whose weird internal composition grants them immunity from X or Y is a venerated Sci-Fi and RPG trope, and it's not inherently bad IMO.





1

Galoteans don't resist weapons, they are transparent for them. You can't wear goo as armor and get this ability. And becoming one is no small deal. But how this works - if ultimate energy absorbing material exists in a universe, energy weapons are doomed.

 

[Frogapus]

I ... I just wanted too make a fun, creepy monster. I had no idea it was this problematic. 

 

[Dualitas]

I ... I just wanted too make a fun, creepy monster. I had no idea it was this problematic. 

Your monster is fine.  Techies are the problem.

 

[Milkman]

Yeah the tech class lags significantly in terms of combat prowess. So it would be greatly appreciated if these critters immunity was perhaps dialed down a bit, just so techs aren't so completely hosed. Perhaps, 1/4 of the would be energy weapon damage converted into lust damage instead or something like that?  That way energy weapons still wouldn't be optimal per say but they'd still be an option for those with little else.

 

[Gutts]

I have to say I really enjoyed reading this, they are honestly pretty creepy and actually remind me a little of no-face from spirited away, thank you for writing it, I'm not sure if Frogapus will even read this but if you do thank you for all the wonderful content you have made and I hope to see more of your interesting characters and creatures in the future. Stay safe and happy.    

 

[Dualitas]

Yeah the tech class lags significantly in terms of combat prowess. So it would be greatly appreciated if these critters immunity was perhaps dialed down a bit, just so techs aren't so completely hosed. Perhaps, 1/4 of the would be energy weapon damage converted into lust damage instead or something like that?  That way energy weapons still wouldn't be optimal per say but they'd still be an option for those with little else.

While it would be kind and considerate for someone to nerf their creation just for the problems of a class, they shouldn't have to. Especially if the other two classes can beat it, no problemo.

 

[Etis]

I ... I just wanted too make a fun, creepy monster. I had no idea it was this problematic. 

Well, it is fun and creepy. Just needs some adjustments from the mechanical standpoint.

Designing encounters around gimped player classes isn't going to solve this problem.





 

Well, imagine techies troubles with drones and energy are solved. And they are still totally fucked up with this monster since their very idea is are built around shields, drones and energy weapons. It's still a design flaw, making a monster totally immune both to one of the two major weapon types AND lust. Actually, doc says nothing about the latter but I was sure it was implied for such a creature.

 

[Dualitas]

Well, imagine techies troubles with drones and energy are solved. And they are still totally fucked up with this monster since their very idea is are built around shields, drones and energy weapons. It's still a design flaw, making a monster totally immune both to one of the two major weapon types AND lust. Actually, doc says nothing about the latter but I was sure it was implied for such a creature.

One of the problems I find with Techies is that some of their skills are gated behind energy weapons.  I consider that a flaw in itself.  Really, energy shouldn't even BE a damage type, all things considered.


On topic:  What's the likelihood of these things being used as "pets" by the natives?

 

[NotYouNorI]

 Really, energy shouldn't even BE a damage type, all things considered.

Energy isn't a damage type, it's a weapon flag.

 

[Etis]

One of the problems I find with Techies is that some of their skills are gated behind energy weapons.  I consider that a flaw in itself.






 

It's not a problem at all. Engineer is a master of the high-tech gear, and having skills exclusive for them is okay. The problem is - the weakness of having limited gear choice should come with a massive buff with specialized gear. Tech, is, basically, a wizard-like class. Some “untalented apprentice, who can only do two mediocre spells and whack people with a staff” type of a wizard.

 

[Dualitas]

Energy isn't a damage type, it's a weapon flag.

If that's the case, then the monster's immunity shouldn't exactly be a problem.


Only so much energy you can absorb before you start burning alive, after all.

It's not a problem at all. Engineer is a master of the high-tech gear, and having skills exclusive for them is okay. The problem is - the weakness of having limited gear choice should come with a massive buff with specialized gear. Tech, is, basically, a wizard-like class. Some “untalented apprentice, who can only do two mediocre spells and whack people with a staff” type of a wizard.

In some D&D-based games, you don't even need a staff to cast spells.  If "Spess Wizardry" is the direction it's trying to go, then I have to be honest:  It looks like a mess.


Also, on the nilin, I've read deaths are caused by exposure.  Considering most would probably take heat belts, I'd figure they wouldn't even need to attack the person.  Just go for the belt.  Hottest thing on them, generally speaking.

 

[NotYouNorI]

If that's the case, then the monster's immunity shouldn't exactly be a problem.

Except it is, because Techs specialize in energy weapons and "energy weapon" covers a rather broad spectrum of weapons from lasers to plasma weaponry to weaponry that shoots powered down lightning.

Only so much energy you can absorb before you start burning alive, after all.

And except the monster is designed to absorb it without limits.

 

[Dualitas]

Except it is, because Techs specialize in energy weapons and "energy weapon" covers a rather broad spectrum of weapons from lasers to plasma weaponry to weaponry that shoots powered down lightning.

We don't have any kinetic energy weapons in the game?

And except the monster is designed to absorb it without limits.

By that logic, they could live on a star and be fine.  They have limit.  Document said nothing about them being insatiable.  Otherwise, they really would drain their victims to death.

 

[NotYouNorI]

We don't have any kinetic energy weapons in the game?

Nope, but if there was this monster would be immune and be healed by it because it is unfortunate to have the "energy weapon" flag

By that logic, they could live on a star and be fine.  They have limit.  Document said nothing about them being insatiable.  Otherwise, they really would drain their victims to death.

The document may say nothing about about them being specifically "insatiable", but doesn't define or mention it having a limit or threshold. Therefore, as far as the game mechanics go, it will absorb energy weapon damage to infinity.

 

[Dualitas]

Nope, but if there was this monster would be immune and be healed by it because it is unfortunate to have the "energy weapon" flag

Don't necessarily rule that out.  Unless a gun can only have one flag, a kinetic energy weapon would have both the "Energy Weapon" flag and "Bullet" flag.  After all, kinetic force is energy itself, and speed with weight coming at you, regardless of what it is, hurts.


Also nifty fact that if you read through the "player attacks" part of the doc, the energy weapon actually does damage them.  They only heal for about 20% of the damage taken.  Not for the gun, though, which is interesting.


Really, though, unless I missed the combat stats somewhere and they're super up-there, Techies should be fine.


Edit:  Actually, once I think about it, anyone who actually uses energy weapons should be fine and not be worried about getting accosted by this "monster."

 

[Etis]

We don't have any kinetic energy weapons in the game?





1

Not yet. But game mechanic allows it. "Energy weapon" is an item flag, while "kinetic" is a damage type. So it is possible to have kinetic energy weapon or electrical/burning bullet weapon.

Also nifty fact that if you read through the "player attacks" part of the doc, the energy weapon actually does damage them.  They only heal for about 20% of the damage taken.  Not for the gun, though, which is interesting.





 

Well, yes, looks like melee energy weapon would partially work. But it still wonky.

 

[Dragonspiderkitsune]

The description of this creature reminded me of 泥眼 (Dei Gan) from the visual novel 相州戦神館學園_八命陣 (Sou Shuu Sen Shin Kan _ Hachi Mei Jin)





Of course what's under the mask of Deigan is much cuter than the tentacle monster here, and arguably much deadlier. 

 

[NotYouNorI]

Don't necessarily rule that out.  Unless a gun can only have one flag, a kinetic energy weapon would have both the "Energy Weapon" flag and "Bullet" flag.

It would still have the "energy weapon" flag, regardless of what other flag it might have and still be treated as such in an encounter like this, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

After all, kinetic force is energy itself, and speed with weight coming at you, regardless of what it is, hurts.

This is soft SciFi. When people talk about "energy" here they mean plasma, lightning, laser and pew-pew blaster bolts, ect, not about the scientific definition of it.

Also nifty fact that if you read through the "player attacks" part of the doc, the energy weapon actually does damage them.  They only heal for about 20% of the damage taken.  Not for the gun, though, which is interesting.


Really, though, unless I missed the combat stats somewhere and they're super up-there, Techies should be fine.


Edit:  Actually, once I think about it, anyone who actually uses energy weapons should be fine and not be worried about getting accosted by this "monster."

I suppose that's that, then.

 

[Dualitas]

It would still have the "energy weapon" flag, regardless of what other flag it might have and still be treated as such in an encounter like this, unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

But here's the thing:  Both flags wouldn't apply in all situations.  For the weapon we're talking about, damage would be governed by the "Bullet" flag, while everything else -the healing from damage, weapon disablement, Techie usage- would be governed by the "Energy Weapon" flag.  This way, while the nilin wouldn't be immune -somewhat- to the damage, but nothing would stop it from having it's way with the gun because of said gun's energetic roots.

This is soft SciFi. When people talk about "energy" here they mean plasma, lightning, laser and pew-pew blaster bolts, ect, not about the scientific definition of it.

And, normally, I would agree with you, but if you recall, the energy weapon -which I'm going to assume is energy melee here- can actually damage the creature, but the gun can't.  Unless it was an oversight by our lovely Nightmare-Introducing hostess here, there has to be a reason for that.  And I can't think of any other reason than the fact that melee always has force behind it.  As a matter of fact, if you look at all the energy weaponry, all of them do some type of physical damage, be it kinetic or crushing.

I suppose that's that, then.

It still depends on our hostess what they would ultimately do.


As a matter of fact, are nilin sapient, parasite, or sentient?

 

[NotYouNorI]

But here's the thing:  Both flags wouldn't apply in all situations.  For the weapon we're talking about, damage would be governed by the "Bullet" flag, while everything else -the healing from damage, weapon disablement, Techie usage- would be governed by the "Energy Weapon" flag.  This way, while the nilin wouldn't be immune -somewhat- to the damage, but nothing would stop it from having it's way with the gun because of said gun's energetic roots.

That's exactly what I was criticizing the current state of the document for. As it currently says nothing about about "energy weapons" that also have the "bullet" flag being the exception to this immunity. A more streamlined solution would be giving it 120% immunity to burning and electrical damage damage and have the blurb about it absorbing it be based on the presence of those damage types

And, normally, I would agree with you, but if you recall, the energy weapon -which I'm going to assume is energy melee here- can actually damage the creature, but the gun can't.  Unless it was an oversight by our lovely Nightmare-Introducing hostess here, there has to be a reason for that.  And I can't think of any other reason than the fact that melee always has force behind it.  As a matter of fact, if you look at all the energy weaponry, all of them do some type of physical damage, be it kinetic or crushing.


It still depends on our hostess what they would ultimately do.

You are mixing up damage types and weapon flags again. And again, as it currently stands at the time of me writing this, the document singles out damage from "energy weapons" regardless of the damage type it might inflict which is what I'm criticizing.

As a matter of fact, are nilin sapient, parasite, or sentient?

Let's not go into this.

 

[Dualitas]

That's exactly what I was criticizing the current state of the document for. As it currently says nothing about about "energy weapons" that also have the "bullet" flag being the exception to this immunity. A more streamlined solution would be giving it 120% immunity to burning and electrical damage damage and have the blurb about it absorbing it be based on the presence of those damage types

I like how the page deleted everything I typed.  :smugdog:


My TLR: Energy guns down the road from now may contain kinetic, corrosive, freezing, maybe even poison.  I'll grant you that it could be immune to burning and electric damage -still iffy on electric-, and even throw in freezing and poison not working.  But it can't be immune to kinetic and corrosive.  The whole point of the energy flag is that it heals from the weapon, regardless of whether it does damage or not.


That was still kinda long.

You are mixing up damage types and weapon flags again. And again, as it currently stands at the time of me writing this, the document singles out damage from "energy weapons" regardless of the damage type it might inflict which is what I'm criticizing.

I did mix those up, again.  Mm.  :v:


Still, I think my first counter-response explains why the document is trying to single out energy weapon damage.


And unfortunately...

Let's not go into this.

..if it's not going to be us, it's going to be whichever developer reads this when submitting.  Fenoxo's rules are ironclad, unless there was a rule change.  If there wasn't, chances are there's going to be some eyebrows raised.


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the nilin in the game, but the game still has rules.

 

[NotYouNorI]

I like how the page deleted everything I typed.  :smugdog:


My TLR: Energy guns down the road from now may contain kinetic, corrosive, freezing, maybe even poison.  I'll grant you that it could be immune to burning and electric damage -still iffy on electric-, and even throw in freezing and poison not working.  But it can't be immune to kinetic and corrosive.  The whole point of the energy flag is that it heals from the weapon, regardless of whether it does damage or not.

No, it only heals when hit by the energy weapon. Read the document again. 

Energy gun hit:


The lance of energy from your weapon hits the nilin squarely in its unchanging face. The entirety of the nilin shudders, its head tilting back in an inhuman approximation of ecstasy. It snaps its face back towards, you, its black eyes glittering, and its tentacles waving with renewed vigor. {Nilin heals 20%}


Energy gun miss:


The beam of energy lances into the nilin's forest of tentacles, firing off into the snow. The nilin's face follows the beam, staring with interest at the hole left in the snow. It looks distracted--now is the time to strike! {Nilin evade reduced by 50% for a round}

Energy weapon hit:


You plunge your weapon into the thickest portion of the nilin's tentacles confident that it has to have a vital point <i>somewhere</i>. The nilin slumps forward, and you feel a momentary surge of triumph before you notice the nilin's tentacles wrapped around your armament. The power indicators in your weapon flicker, and you jerk back, realizing that the monster had been feeding on your weapon. {Nilin takes damage, heals 20%}


Energy weapon miss:


You slash forward at the nilin's forest of tentacles. As an almost cohesive whole, they rush forward to meet your weapon. You pull back just in time, not sure why the creature wanted to be hit with your weapon, but fairly certain that you shouldn't give it what it wants. {no effect}

Which is why giving them 120% resistance (which would heal them) to certain damage types would be a better idea than the basing it on the "energy weapon" flag.

Still, I think my first counter-response explains why the document is trying to single out energy weapon damage.

Quit putting your words into @Frogapus mouth...

..if it's not going to be us, it's going to be whichever developer reads this when submitting.  Fenoxo's rules are ironclad, unless there was a rule change.  If there wasn't, chances are there's going to be some eyebrows raised.


Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the nilin in the game, but the game still has rules.

It's literally the the TiTS version of the tentacle monster from CoC.

 

[Dualitas]

No, it only heals when hit by the energy weapon. Read the document again. 

I know.  That's what I'm basically saying, though it wouldn't be out of the ordinary if it healed from your weapon if it gets its tender little hands on it.


Also, did you have more to say in there and the forum just glitched on you?


Edit:  Also found your post about your complaint about it being immune to energy weapons in general.  Somehow, my phone missed that, earlier.

 

[Zavos]

For what its worth, you have made a vary fun, vary creepy monster.  The problems with it are mechanical, not aesthetic.  Once you fix them, everyone will love this. 


Perhaps a contingency could come up where if it drains the PC's technology three times, it gets full and looses interest in the PC and drifts away.  This way, while a tech wouldn't be able to effectively harm it, all a tech would need to do to come out no worse for wear is survive three rounds.  Another solution is to take away its energy disables, and make them weak to one element and resistant to another. 

 

[NotYouNorI]

Also, did you have more to say in there and the forum just glitched on you?

The forum glitched out. Fixed it.

I know.  That's what I'm basically saying, 

Your words:

 The whole point of the energy flag is that it heals from the weapon, regardless of whether it does damage or not.

This gave me the impression that you meant otherwise (that the monster gets healed regardless the atach healed or not)

 

[Dualitas]

The forum glitched out. Fixed it.


Your words:


This gave me the impression that you meant otherwise (that the monster gets healed regardless the atach healed or not)

I'll admit, I was not completely clear with that.  My fault, though I figured since I was talking about damage types, it wouldn't need clarification.  Again, my fault.

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

Guys, come on, stop derailing Froggy's thread. I suggest we create a dedicated new one for discussing the weapon and armor flags.

I ... I just wanted too make a fun, creepy monster. I had no idea it was this problematic. 

And that you did, those critters are a lot of fun and quite creepy at the same time.


Sorry for derailing the thread and focusing so much on the potential problems with the combat mechanics this encounter may have. It's just that, as others have stated, Techies are by far the weakest class atm, so an encounter that targets them specifically and focuses on stripping away all the advantages they have while being 100% immune to all of their preferred damage types understandably caused some serious butthurt concerns. Still, that should have been feedback given point by point in the doc, not a protracted argument in the thread. So again I would like to apologize for my part in that.


To end on a more positive note, I'd like to thank you for delivering another truly alien and weird, but interesting creature, even if this time it's a spoopy monster instead of adorable birb people.

 

[Dualitas]

Guys, come on, stop derailing Froggy's thread. I suggest we create a dedicated new one for discussing the weapon and armor flags.


And that you did, those critters are a lot of fun and quite creepy at the same time.


Sorry for derailing the thread and focusing so much on the potential problems with the combat mechanics this encounter may have. It's just that, as others have stated, Techies are by far the weakest class atm, so an encounter that targets them specifically and focuses on stripping of all the advantages they have while being 100% immune to all of their preferred damage types understandably caused some serious butthurt concerns. Still, that should have been feedback given point by point in the doc, not a protracted argument in the thread. So again I would like to apologize for my part in that.


To end on a more positive note, I'd like to thank you for delivering another truly alien and weird, but interesting creature, even if this time it's a spoopy monster instead of adorable birb people.

In our defense, it still pertained to the nilin.  But you're right, we did get carried away there.


However, still have to be Devil's Advocate here.  Unless the developers agreed to do it for you or it's somewhere and I'm too blind/lazy to find it, I cannot find any combat stats on this creature.  I think it would ease a lot of concerns of we saw what its defense were truly comprised of.

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

However, still have to be Devil's Advocate here.  Unless the developers agreed to do it for you or it's somewhere and I'm too blind/lazy to find it, I cannot find any combat stats on this creature.  I think it would ease a lot of concerns of we saw what its defense were truly comprised of.

Then go to the doc and point out which places lack crucial details in your opinion, maybe suggest a potential statline to Frogapus. That way she will have all the relevant feedback gathered in one place.and precise.