Your Gripes With CoC2
- Thread starter Savin
- Start date
A sort of growing gripe I have with this game is that our character is feeling more and more useless as time goes on. One of the problems is that the list of people who are stronger and who can defeat Kasyrra seemingly keeps growing. In the bad endings where something shitty happens to us and we are no longer able to fight, Kasyrra is taken out like she's a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Like in the kistune ending where you are put in a "Get Out" scenario, you are turned into a kitsune breeding pet and you are trapped in the back of your mind with something else being in control of your body (remind me again, why are we forced to be cool with them?). Kasyrra gets taken out no problem whatsoever. Which begs the question, why is nobody else doing anything? All the gods can take her out, the kitsune can take her out, the baroness can take her out, Evergreen can take her out.
In fact, it's been made apparent that Kasyrra needs our soul to be stronger, that means we have to keep adventuring. Wouldn't the smart choice be to disappear somewhere? If we disappear willingly, someone will defeat Kasyrra as that has been made clear in some of the endings. So why even bother at all? What's the point of our character existing? Why are the characters who are more capable than us supposedly "occupied"? Maybe there will be some explanation later on, but at the rate stuff is going it will probably be years from now.
Also, what does Kasyrra being around change? In the first game from the little I've managed to play, the world was more or less normal with the demon outbreak turning most people and creatures into corrupt rapists. But in COC2, that's normal. Most of the sentient hostile NPCs you encounter that aren't related to anything demonic wanna rape you. The orcs are a bunch of rapist slavers, the kitsune can be rapists if nobody wants to willingly give them life essence, the mino guards can be rapists, the horse men are biologically driven to be sex crazed, the vesparans are rapists too among others. There's also a god of lust with a sex cult attached that grooms children into becoming acolytes (they say they have the choice to leave but if you grow up with that life being all you know, what's the likelihood you will?). Cait claims that consent is important in her religion, except when you sic her on someone or when it comes to Lusamine. What's Kasyrra's goal, really? Turning 80% hedonism into 100%? Turning everyone to demons but they still continue what they've been doing already? So why are we trying to stop her? Maybe it's to prevent some of the special NPCs we like from changing, but that can be easily solved by again, disappearing completely.
In fact, it's been made apparent that Kasyrra needs our soul to be stronger, that means we have to keep adventuring. Wouldn't the smart choice be to disappear somewhere? If we disappear willingly, someone will defeat Kasyrra as that has been made clear in some of the endings. So why even bother at all? What's the point of our character existing? Why are the characters who are more capable than us supposedly "occupied"? Maybe there will be some explanation later on, but at the rate stuff is going it will probably be years from now.
Also, what does Kasyrra being around change? In the first game from the little I've managed to play, the world was more or less normal with the demon outbreak turning most people and creatures into corrupt rapists. But in COC2, that's normal. Most of the sentient hostile NPCs you encounter that aren't related to anything demonic wanna rape you. The orcs are a bunch of rapist slavers, the kitsune can be rapists if nobody wants to willingly give them life essence, the mino guards can be rapists, the horse men are biologically driven to be sex crazed, the vesparans are rapists too among others. There's also a god of lust with a sex cult attached that grooms children into becoming acolytes (they say they have the choice to leave but if you grow up with that life being all you know, what's the likelihood you will?). Cait claims that consent is important in her religion, except when you sic her on someone or when it comes to Lusamine. What's Kasyrra's goal, really? Turning 80% hedonism into 100%? Turning everyone to demons but they still continue what they've been doing already? So why are we trying to stop her? Maybe it's to prevent some of the special NPCs we like from changing, but that can be easily solved by again, disappearing completely.
Bad Ends are not canon, I dislike the Kitsune Bad Ends too but they are obviously not supposed to be taken as a real part of the lore. Also in multiple Bad Ends Kas defeats the Gods, which I'm sure you'd agree is pretty much impossible. And Evergreen and the Baroness obviously can't defeat Kas that's absurd.
Kas doesn't want our soul to get stronger, she wants a sufficiently powerful soul to get her pregnant and have real children (don't ask me how that's supposed to work ask Kas). Also the reason you are even on the journey right now and not dead or a demon is because the Champ is special in a way that makes Kas obsessed with you.
I do agree with this though. It's especialy bad on the Kas romance path in Winter City where Lumia shows up and does nothing about her. Or when Kas just talks back to Mallach like he couldn't have just obliterated her with his pinky toe.
I kind of see them as a different reality kind of thing. It doesn't happen, but it could have. As for Kasyrra defeating the gods, the way I see it is that it was only possible probably because all of them were too lazy to get rid of her until she managed to find a way to beat them. Evergreen and Baroness probably can't defeat Kasyrra, but they still go on the ever growing list of people being more capable than you.
Yeah but again, aren't we giving her what she wants by continuing? Wouldn't it be wise to stop?
But the real problem overall is that our character is starting to look like a schmuck that others delagate shit to that fucks or gets fucked by things because nobody else could be bothered. If this was just a plain old porn game there wouldn't be an issue, but I'm pretty sure it's trying to be more than that. We don't feel like a champion, or the person who overcame the odds with their companions. Just a schmuck. Power fantasy isn't liked here but even in non power fantasy games, you don't feel useless.
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Your really just ingoring a lot of context why the champ is the one being sent in to deal with shit arent you, or are you ignoring most of them having to stop the seemingly endless hoard of imps assulting there citys in like, Kors case, they literally fucking cant do more than that.
I've noticed that you tend to barely read the comments you disagree with so lemme say it again. A chump with a special soul is still a chump in the end, especially when it's rammed in your skull that there are people who can do your job better but won't because they can't be bothered. Want to fight back the endless hordes of imps? Lets ask person-stronger-than-you1, oh wait too busy looking cool with the story mentioning their superiority? What about 2 - 20? No? Oh damn, guess it's up to us now. Come on.
I have a feeling Bleh's issues with the game are an unfortunate consequence of Savin and Co trying to avoid making the Champ a overpowered super speshul Mary Sue by reinforcing that there are always people stronger and more experienced than us
they've even said the level cap by the time the finale is out will be 10, while characters like Garth et al are lvl 20
the problem with avoiding that while also having us effectively be the plot driver is weirdness like this, where sometimes theres no logical reason someone else isnt solving the issue
they've even said the level cap by the time the finale is out will be 10, while characters like Garth et al are lvl 20
the problem with avoiding that while also having us effectively be the plot driver is weirdness like this, where sometimes theres no logical reason someone else isnt solving the issue
I mean isn't that the case for most RPGs? Even if you are the chosen one you shouldn't be able to defeat the BBEG on the first confontation. And I don't understand the Champ downplay; sure there are people who are presented as equally as competent as you but there are very little people explicitly stronger than you after Winter City. I mean we are very much comparable to the likes of Komari right now (which is kinda crazy when you think about it) I don't know how you can argue we are weaker than Garth on EoS.
Alright when I was venting here, I had no idea the difference was that much. "My back aches while chopping wood", my ass lmao.
Well that's just not true. Kasyrra is level 20, but that's a shout out to CoC1.
References to Garth/etc. as "Level 20" in places outside the game (ie here/Discord) are just using D&D parlance. Presumably the village trainers were Level 10s at some point in their past careers since they've eventually got to teach you Level 10 powers, but none of them have done anything to actually keep those skills sharp in decades; any of them would get absolutely bodied by Kas. Or you, probably, at least around the time you get to KM.
Also worth noting level does not just mean strength. River being a level 10 Bard would mean he is an expert at his craft and not that he can go toe to toe with Kas lol. Goofy DnD power scalling.
"Level" is a very weird and contrived thing in RPGs (computer RPGs especially) in general and my advice is never to really put too much stock in it from a narrative perspective. Things are the level they are because that's the level they need to be for gameplay.
Like Helia was half Kiha's level in CoC1 because she was in a waaaaay earlier zone, but when they tangle narratively they're pretty evenly matched. Or a random mountain harpy was level 10 while a minotaur berserker was level 5; narratively, I'd bet on the minotaur if they got into fisticuffs.
Or my "favorite" skyrim memory of a bear bodying me right after I punched the final boss to death. Because the level maths said bears are always supposed to be scary.
Levels have never made sense to me; I grew up on a combo of Ultima ("wow, I have 30 HP!")and JRPGs(9999999999).
Anyway, I just think of it like in superhero comics/movies when the protagonist could just call up Superman, or the Avengers or whatever and solve the problem at hand in 5 minutes, but they don't. There's some things you just gotta handwave. That said, there might be people more powerful than us, but they're the equivalent of people who go to craft markets and grumble about how they could make all this themselves, but they won't. Effectively it doesn't matter.
Bears are always scary, just ask Bryan Danielson. You can't be a champion until you can beat a bear!
Anyway, I just think of it like in superhero comics/movies when the protagonist could just call up Superman, or the Avengers or whatever and solve the problem at hand in 5 minutes, but they don't. There's some things you just gotta handwave. That said, there might be people more powerful than us, but they're the equivalent of people who go to craft markets and grumble about how they could make all this themselves, but they won't. Effectively it doesn't matter.
Am i the only one who thinks it's weird that nobody is against you dating Aileh?
When people mention Kassyra eveybody goes "oh no she's gonna turn us into demons and bring chaos upon the world" or "You really shouldnt sleep with her champ she's might control you if you dont know what you're doing" but when you're dating her daughter who works under her and supports her everybody is all smiles and giggles.
Hell even Lumia who had to do Janitor duty because Kass fucked up the portal and unleashed a void beast upon the world sends you candy to Aileh and Freja.
When people mention Kassyra eveybody goes "oh no she's gonna turn us into demons and bring chaos upon the world" or "You really shouldnt sleep with her champ she's might control you if you dont know what you're doing" but when you're dating her daughter who works under her and supports her everybody is all smiles and giggles.
Hell even Lumia who had to do Janitor duty because Kass fucked up the portal and unleashed a void beast upon the world sends you candy to Aileh and Freja.
No one knows she's her daughter and from what I remember even your companions weren't there to see that whole failed portal nonsense.
Well Freja at least is an innocent in all this.
You should ask Annika about that after she comes to see Aileh and freja.name.
I understand that, but in different games those are often treated as jokes or the story doesn't confirm whether its true or not. The problem is when it is emphasized that these people are better than you but can't be bothered to do anything to help. Also doesn't help that you know these characters and sometimes are pretty close to them to know they aren't preoccupied.
It's like I if I make an RPG but I also inserted other characters I personaly created that I think are cool (OCs) and made them better than the player character in every way and it probably stays that way till the end of the game. These characters may help out by training you but they don't do anything else besides exist to remind you that you aren't the top dog. I know power fantasy = bad, but there has to be a better way to go about it.
Can you point to any characters in particular? I can't think of any besides the gods which, while implemented poorly, don't actually stop the game from being a power fantasy.
When you have a save the world plot were the MC has to fight the BBEG and hordes of their minions it's very difficult to write that kind of story and have it not be a power fantasy. Putting a bunch of really powerful characters that could resolve the plot if they wanted too but won't because reasons, under a spotlight like a statue in an art gallery doesn't change the fact that the MC is the hero beating down all the bad guys, rescuing all the people, getting all the fame and rewards and ultimately saving the world from certain doom.
Now I'm not particularly irked about more powerful characters existing, the problem is that they've been set in a story where the entire world is in jeopardy and nobody who's capable should be sitting on their asses at a time like this. But this is a conundrum for the fact that MC needs to be the one to resolve the plot, so if it's going to have more powerful characters that could resolve the plot they better have damn good reasons for why they aren't.
Bruh, I didn't even do anything to Jen and he knocks me out of knowhere.
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If I recall, Leofric is no longer an instant knockout. I know I dodged that punch recently at least.
Yeah, Bubble has a lot of controversial characters under their belt.
Age is a awful thing that makes even the strongest warriors unable to be able to full tap into what they used to be able to. Its a shocking concept I know.
Third time's the charm ain't the law of this universe bucko. Last time I checked, Leofric is pretty spry for his age. Being gifted with immortailty and more vigor among other things by a goddess will do that to you. Speaking of the gods, I don't think immortality is gonna cause them to age and become wrinkly and brittle. Just one snap from any of them ends Kasyrra, but nope demons spreading corruption ain't a big deal to them. These people whom you claim are old and weak apparently still give us a run for our money, according to the story.
In COC1 the gods are gone and all of them were probably more powerful than the protagonist of the game at their peak. But they got complacent, and look what happened to them. If COC2's story were shaping out to be something like that, then maybe I can buy it. But it doesn't look to be the case. Or maybe later in development, if we alongside our companions eventually become strong enough to actually show that we're the best bet, even if you include the gods to stop Kasyrra, that would be great. I don't know how "power fantasy" that is, but it's better than being the chump with "special soul powers" running around solving problems when there are people without them that can do better even when you reach the end of the game.
It's fine if the dude wants to challenge anything I say or any gripe I have. I'm gonna defend myself appropriately, that's all.
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