Your gripes with CoC II

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

Eh, I disagree. Let's remember characters like Queen Nyzeerah and Chief Taldahs can be redeemed from their corruption whereas in a trulyGrimdark setting (say, Warhammer 40k) the only way to end their suffering would be to kill them.

Grimdark is about both bleakness and overall agency. In Warhammer for instance, people save the day all the damn time. The 'good guys' beat back the baddies, a planet is safe for a few centuries, ect,

Hell, there are literally countless agriculture worlds where the whole endless war and death stuff never occurs. People just farm to feed the rest of society.

The reason a setting is grimdark is because it is both overall bleak, and there is absolutely nothing anybody can reasonably do to change that.

On the surface, you could consider CoC2 to be those worlds I mentioned earlier. At a glance, things don't seem so bad. There's some nice people, the hero is running around trying to save the day, all that jazz.

Except, you mentioned corruption before? Corruption is awful, but look at what the world is upt to on it's own.

Directly to the east, you have roving bands of marauding rapists and thieves. Sharing this haunt is a tribe of pillaging barbarians from the sea that have come to rape and enslave with the backing of one of the gods of your world.

Underground in this region you have yet another society of slavers, with the most prosperous settlement in the region.

To the north, a settlement of, again rapists and thieves, except instead of physical currency they take your life force. These ones are part of an entire nation that lives like that and has the backing and approval of one of the seven gods in your setting. They are even more cruel in their interactions then the 2 groups listed above.

To the south, you have a society of horse people where the males go out on rape rampages when they're old enough as part of their natural life cycle.

---

You have living gods interacting with and governing the world, and they allow all this to occur. It's only some of the problems in the area too. Then throw corruption and the literal plague of demons that are stealing people's souls through rape induced partial spiritual and mental lobotomies.

Then you move into spoiler territory.

Spoiler: Just go do the Mirrors quest with a guide, whoever has not smh

The gods? They're actually eldritch abominations who are completely apathetic to the plights of mortals unless it inconveniences them, they are allowing the whole demon outbreak to occur out of curiosity of their leader's soul experiments. They are completely beyond your power and the only way you can stop them is to let the sociopathic rapist demon queen win and kill/corrupt the pantheon.

These are the same beings as the wraiths that have a form of soul taking that is worse then a demon's, since they seem to just destroy the original person completely in most cases. And speaking of wraiths? There is a countless number of them, all waiting just outside the material plane for a way in. The barrier between the dream realm and the void is apparently quite thin, as we read during the bird quest.

Every experiment with portals between worlds, with walking the ways between, and perhaps even dabbling in a bit too much dream magic? The potential to fuck up and let an endless horde of lovecraftian horrors into the world, and your only real defense against this is the variable vigilance of the group of lovecraftian horrors that have taken you all as an amusing pass-time.

Hell, a tried and true wraith breaches into the material realm and only one of the Seven actually shows up to fight it, and can easily lose. The rest of them just let this happen, one of whom spends a good amount of their time literally right down the road and can instantly transport himself there at a moment's notice.

---

There is pretty much nothing you can do to actually fix any of the major problems. You can win the day and save a hamlet or city here or there for the moment, but at the end of the day you're just deciding how openly perverse you want your sociopathetic lording assholes from the darkness between worlds to be.

Even if you get strong enough to smite some demon queen hide and then head north to try and help deal with the bigger brewing apocalypse that is the old wraiths amassing power again, there are still the powers of your world that are probably just going to let something like this occur again if it interests them enough. Everything you went through, all the suffering of the people you met along the way, the countless people changed forever by the removal and possible reapplication of their souls, and the experiences all went through in the process, that was all because all of life is prisoner to the whims of cruel and uncaring discount outer gods.

And then everyone else will just go back to raping and enslaving eachother, just this time without risk of demonification, because again the Seven are chill with that. Until someone fucks up with magic and lets the cthulus back in that is, and then you see if this time the slightly nicer eldritch horrors are feelings like saving reality today.

---

It's pretty cut and dry grimdark when you get down to it, though I am not sure if it was done intentionally, or if it is a byproduct of the schizo writing philosophy of some of the people behind the game not knowing if they want it to be a power fantasy or not, resulting in a world that ensures you are effectively powerless in the grand scheme of things no matter how much actual personal strength you accumulate.

But hey, tiddies and dick.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

(doesn't help that there aren't a lot of male herm or cuntboy players in general

Just you wait, all 6 of us will rise up one day.

 

[cloer]

Grimdark is about both bleakness and overall agency. In Warhammer for instance, people save the day all the damn time. The 'good guys' beat back the baddies, a planet is safe for a few centuries, ect,

Hell, there are literally countless agriculture worlds where the whole endless war and death stuff never occurs. People just farm to feed the rest of society.

The reason a setting is grimdark is because it is both overall bleak, and there is absolutely nothing anybody can reasonably do to change that.

On the surface, you could consider CoC2 to be those worlds I mentioned earlier. At a glance, things don't seem so bad. There's some nice people, the hero is running around trying to save the day, all that jazz.

Except, you mentioned corruption before? Corruption is awful, but look at what the world is upt to on it's own.

Directly to the east, you have roving bands of marauding rapists and thieves. Sharing this haunt is a tribe of pillaging barbarians from the sea that have come to rape and enslave with the backing of one of the gods of your world.

Underground in this region you have yet another society of slavers, with the most prosperous settlement in the region.

To the north, a settlement of, again rapists and thieves, except instead of physical currency they take your life force. These ones are part of an entire nation that lives like that and has the backing and approval of one of the seven gods in your setting. They are even more cruel in their interactions then the 2 groups listed above.

To the south, you have a society of horse people where the males go out on rape rampages when they're old enough as part of their natural life cycle.

---

You have living gods interacting with and governing the world, and they allow all this to occur. It's only some of the problems in the area too. Then throw corruption and the literal plague of demons that are stealing people's souls through rape induced partial spiritual and mental lobotomies.

Then you move into spoiler territory.

Spoiler: Just go do the Mirrors quest with a guide, whoever has not smh

The gods? They're actually eldritch abominations who are completely apathetic to the plights of mortals unless it inconveniences them, they are allowing the whole demon outbreak to occur out of curiosity of their leader's soul experiments. They are completely beyond your power and the only way you can stop them is to let the sociopathic rapist demon queen win and kill/corrupt the pantheon.

These are the same beings as the wraiths that have a form of soul taking that is worse then a demon's, since they seem to just destroy the original person completely in most cases. And speaking of wraiths? There is a countless number of them, all waiting just outside the material plane for a way in. The barrier between the dream realm and the void is apparently quite thin, as we read during the bird quest.

Every experiment with portals between worlds, with walking the ways between, and perhaps even dabbling in a bit too much dream magic? The potential to fuck up and let an endless horde of lovecraftian horrors into the world, and your only real defense against this is the variable vigilance of the group of lovecraftian horrors that have taken you all as an amusing pass-time.

Hell, a tried and true wraith breaches into the material realm and only one of the Seven actually shows up to fight it, and can easily lose. The rest of them just let this happen, one of whom spends a good amount of their time literally right down the road and can instantly transport himself there at a moment's notice.

---

There is pretty much nothing you can do to actually fix any of the major problems. You can win the day and save a hamlet or city here or there for the moment, but at the end of the day you're just deciding how openly perverse you want your sociopathetic lording assholes from the darkness between worlds to be.

Even if you get strong enough to smite some demon queen hide and then head north to try and help deal with the bigger brewing apocalypse that is the old wraiths amassing power again, there are still the powers of your world that are probably just going to let something like this occur again if it interests them enough. Everything you went through, all the suffering of the people you met along the way, the countless people changed forever by the removal and possible reapplication of their souls, and the experiences all went through in the process, that was all because all of life is prisoner to the whims of cruel and uncaring discount outer gods.

And then everyone else will just go back to raping and enslaving eachother, just this time without risk of demonification, because again the Seven are chill with that. Until someone fucks up with magic and lets the cthulus back in that is, and then you see if this time the slightly nicer eldritch horrors are feelings like saving reality today.

---

It's pretty cut and dry grimdark when you get down to it, though I am not sure if it was done intentionally, or if it is a byproduct of the schizo writing philosophy of some of the people behind the game not knowing if they want it to be a power fantasy or not, resulting in a world that ensures you are effectively powerless in the grand scheme of things no matter how much actual personal strength you accumulate.

But hey, tiddies and dick.

...y'know, sometimes I wonder why you still play the game...

...eh, probably the tiddies...

 

[redlightnin55]

Okay, so I really wanted to refresh my memory as I finally finish and move on from the topic of Azy, Lia, and the player's relationship, so I created a new character and sped through the stuff just so I could fully experience it all again with renewed perspective. So here's a log I wrote as I went through it all again! It'll be inside the spoiler just so the giant wall of text doesn't make scrolling a nightmare for those who aren't interested in the Azy topic. If you also haven't gone through it in a while, give it a read and it might refresh your own feelings, too.

Spoiler: Long, long, long breakdown basically scene by scene

Azy isn't quite as sweet to the player as I remembered, at least not right off the bat. Once you interact with her she warms up fast, though. However...

Though only a small piece of dialogue, she does make special note of how lovely Liaden is literally the first time they meet. "You found a lovely paladin to help us, indeed." Is her exact line, which didn't strike me as odd originally because I didn't know about their future relationship. I don't think it was intentional to come off as immediate romantic interest, but...who knows. If it was, then yeah, I guess the writing is on the wall a lot sooner than I remembered or realized.

There's also things in their conversation by the pool, when Liaden tells you to go purify the core, that could be harmless or could be signs. I don't think I can safely say one way or the other, and I don't want to put words into a writer's mouth over a 50/50 shot, so I'll just say it was harmless banter. If it was intended to imply romantic interest, I'd say make it a little more obvious.

If anything, I find it more annoying that Lia outright tells you (even if you're a 100% female champ) that she has no interest in plowing you after purifying the pool. Sure, it's the knowledge of what happens later speaking, but...fuck you, Liaden. You're so weird. You get a not-optional relationship with one of my companions and reject ME? Even when I fit your strict lesbian criteria? What?

And then right after the line where Liaden clears up that she's not interested in you, she and Azy have their little nonspecified chat where they hug, then Liaden leaves and Azy goes back to paying attention to the champ. For clarity's sake, upon purifying the hive, I took Azy into my party for the remainder of this refreshing.

Upon returning to town and bringing Liaden to Sanders, Liaden makes special note to thank Azy, despite the hornet not having a single line of dialogue through the entire thing, even though I had her in my party. Her only dialogue is saying you're welcome after being thanked. What's up with that?

OH JEEZ THAT WAS FAST. Wow. Like, uncool fast. After leaving the church I returned to the inn, saved my game before planning to sleep for the night, and upon exiting the save screen and without even clicking anything, I immediately got ambushed by Azy's prompt where she asks about being with Liaden. Holy crap, calm down! I didn't even get to sleep! And it's been four minutes!!

Well, good thing I saved, at least... Now begins the experimentation, though I'd say my earlier-stated stance is already kinda represented, as is the stance of others--this happened WAY too suddenly, and had close to zero concrete build-up to it. She hasn't even slept with me for a single night at the inn and her eyes are suddenly all on Liaden.

"Wholesome" option is...sooooo weird now that I'm reading it again. The champion is so awkwardly forward in it. And not only that, but unlike YOUR relationship with Azy, the champion outright calls it dating for Azy and Lia, describing a host of things they can do that...aren't options for you. You don't get to date Azy. And then it reeeeeally hammers home their immediate intense affection for one another by saying the entire atmosphere of the tavern changed because of the warmth of their conversation. Yeesh...

And now we get the polyamory talk. Mm... Choosing "Can I join" is... Eh, I'm not going to mince words, that exposition sucks ass in a porn game. The reply "maybe someday, but she just wants me right now" feels like absolute shit to read if you're invested in Azyrran. Even if we look at it game-wise, I haven't even had a single night at the inn with Azy yet and she's hooking up with Liaden and I'm getting pushed to the wayside. Looking at it non-game-wise, this shit's weird because I'm a human being and not a fictional character. Why am I, real human player, being sidelined in a porn game from someone whom I want to be romantic with? It's not fetishized, Azy isn't studding for me, it's just a bizarre, unsatisfying pushing of a relationship that quite literally materialized out of nowhere and excludes my character despite me fitting the proper criteria? So uncool.

Still, for the refresh, I chose the option to encourage it rather than lock it off.

Now we get to the threesome scene, which I admittedly have never seen as a pure female character before now. Jeez... Once again, the dialogue really hammers home that Liaden's all Azy focuses on. The scene lays out quite clearly that your group just got back to the inn at most 20 minutes ago, and the champ is even surprised by the speed at which she must have put makeup on and dolled up just to get to this point. That's some heavy affection and focus right there. And they have sweet little nicknames for each other, another thing that the player doesn't get with Azy.

Wow, though... The tone Azy takes once you're caught is very out of character for the content that came before it. Perhaps she's shifted closer to this tone in newer content, but it's stark going from the hive to this moment. It literally feels like she's suddenly an entirely different character. Holy crap that's such a massive change in personality.

The scene itself is quite different, I'll admit, but still suffers the same issue, ultimately... You're still a third wheel. While the sex involves both women, after you cum, you leave and they stay together in bed and romantically cuddle. They go on without you.

Now I've reloaded and taken the blue potion prior to setting Azy and Lia up in the first place. I'm picking the same "Wholesome" option just for consistency's sake. The "Can I join" dialogue remains the same, which is nice in that I'm glad it didn't get worse than what I already complained about.

OKAY, so that's VERY nice to see. I'm glad this seems to consider your gender preference rather than your equipment. Not only does the scene still go well with a penis, it even works the same if you get rid of your vagina. As long as your gender preference is set to female, you get the threesome.

Changing gender preference to male and redoing the hookup leads to an honestly much better dialogue to the "Can I join" choice. Saying no, she's a lesbian is way better than "we just want each other right now."

Annnnd the threesome that doesn't exist! Not much to say there aside from what I'm sure other male players have said before, I'm sure. Plus I don't really mind, I think it's fine to have SOME gatekept content. As long as it's a small amount. lol

I once again refreshed myself on Azy's dialogue for refusing to help her hook up in the first place and my feelings remain the same on it. Not only is the player's line in it kinda...douchy compared to all the other stuff you can get up to, but her reaction being so guilt-heavy is also uncool. And she even mentions needing to spread the eggs again, and yet we still don't see any of that from her. Mm... That line might go over smoother if she actually egged someone other than the player. Egging isn't even my thing, but if spreading eggs is the crux of her polyamory, which is in turn the crux of her relationship with Lia, then it'd be nice if she got something to validate that line. Otherwise, in that guilt-ridden moment, it comes off as a kind of an excuse to justify that she's pursuing a relationship you may or may not (depending on your preference as a player) approve of, while not even actually intending to egg her.

Okay, I've officially exhausted all the non-dawnswordy stuff I can do with the two of them.

My final verdict is that...yeah, I don't think it's very good. The fact that it's so intense out of nowhere, combined with the shift in personality Azy gets presumably after being written again from a period of not being touched due to update structure, and further intensified by the lack of romance you as the player have with Azy once she's joined really seals the deal. You are absolutely a third wheel, or no wheel at all in the event of full-male players. Every aspect of their relationship is more intimate and fiery than your own with Azy. I absolutely now get the impression that the player is a fling while Lia is her actual love, and again, as a real human player, it feels really shitty to be sidelined not by my own choice in a CYOA, even when I fit the limiting criteria. If this expansion/rework only reworks the dawnsword quest, it will not be enough to salvage Azy for me at least, because from the top down their relationship is entirely unsatisfying to me.

I will say, at the VERY least, I do like that once you encourage her to be with Lia, telling her to keep it to herself in the following dialogue is at least a fair bit more positive than saying you don't want to deal with it in the first place. I'd suggest changing that first "never" option to match this one, or add another option to that set to encourage it while still removing the content. I don't think I should have to be a dick to Azy just because I really dislike the way her other relationship is handled. Maybe that's silly, but whatever.

So yeah... I think I'm ready to move on from complaining about Azy. Hopefully I didn't come off too aggressively. Aside from maybe those two very specific points, I tried to choose my language carefully so as not to come off like I was angry or hostile toward actual people. It's just a game, after all.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

...eh, probably the tiddies...

Hey, as long as they're not hyper sized, I won't deny it.

Pecs, flat, A-D, chest be chest.

Though if they've got antlers, the no hyper thing goes right out the window.

 

[cloer]

"Look a those ginormous breasts on that one!"
CAE: "Meh"
"I hear she's got nipple piercings looking like antlers."
CAE:

 

[WolframL]

Grimdark is about both bleakness and overall agency. In Warhammer for instance, people save the day all the damn time. The 'good guys' beat back the baddies, a planet is safe for a few centuries, ect,

Allow me to link you to the last time this came up, because you can find a screencap from Discord of Tobs (who writes the closest to that tone that anybody does in this game) stating that no, CoC2 is not grimdark.

 

[SmithEK]

Serena has extremely good vag scenes that dont require a cock..

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

Allow me to link you to the last time this came up, because you can find a screencap from Discord of Tobs (who writes the closest to that tone that anybody does in this game) stating that no, CoC2 is not grimdark.

That is a nice link I suppose, but I have no reason or desire to click it.

My friend, I have spent more time discussing that stupid term then you have playing this game. Every time it's brought up in one of my communities, someone has to turn it into an hours long discussion and/or debate on what the hell it even means, and these tend to snowball into a day affair as more users trickle in and keep starting it back up. I have spent more time pondering this damn word then you have playing all 3 of these games.

This is on top of being a Warhammer fan as well, though it's just what coined the term anyway. Grimdark has been around long before it, with such lovely classics as Lovecraft's Mythos and I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream. You tend to keep up on these things very well when specifically crafting setting lore is basically your business for years going into the double digits.

And this is on top of my own projects. If writing dark shit instantly makes you an expert for that reason alone, then I suppose I am happy to accept my position as the eternal god of the subject.

The world is grimdark. That's not a negative thing. That's not a positive thing. That's how it is. You can accept that or you can not, but that is your own problem, not mine. And this Tobs as well, I suppose.

 

[zagzig]

Allow me to link you to the last time this came up, because you can find a screencap from Discord of Tobs (who writes the closest to that tone that anybody does in this game) stating that no, CoC2 is not grimdark.

Sweetie, all this is why you should spend more time with us on the Discord rather than the forum.

 

[wery12345]

That is a nice link I suppose, but I have no reason or desire to click it.

My friend, I have spent more time discussing that stupid term then you have playing this game. Every time it's brought up in one of my communities, someone has to turn it into an hours long discussion and/or debate on what the hell it even means, and these tend to snowball into a day affair as more users trickle in and keep starting it back up. I have spent more time pondering this damn word then you have playing all 3 of these games.

This is on top of being a Warhammer fan as well, though it's just what coined the term anyway. Grimdark has been around long before it, with such lovely classics as Lovecraft's Mythos and I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream. You tend to keep up on these things very well when specifically crafting setting lore is basically your business for years going into the double digits.

And this is on top of my own projects. If writing dark shit instantly makes you an expert for that reason alone, then I suppose I am happy to accept my position as the eternal god of the subject.

The world is grimdark. That's not a negative thing. That's not a positive thing. That's how it is. You can accept that or you can not, but that is your own problem, not mine. And this Tobs as well, I suppose.

Ah yes, the old fingers in ears I can't hear you defense.

 

[luciel1331]

Serena has extremely good vag scenes that dont require a cock..

Yup sure does! That's why Serena is one of my favs. I was generalizing again (sorry!) and saying that the majority of vag champs scenes didn't connect with me. But there are definite gems in there like Serena and that's why I appreciate writers like Alypia and Skow that do take into account female champs and vag-only champs.

Despite my complaints, there has been more stuff added for vag-only champs recently so I appreciate the devs and writers for their effort!

Edit: And also B does include some stuff for vag-only champs but personally felt skow and alypia do so more often.

 

[luciel1331]

I mean, a lot of polyamory with another couple is going to be third wheeling. That is in fact part of polyamory, is why this isn't weird to me. As long as they're taking steps to include me, which they do, I'm chill with it.

Well, I didn't mind third-wheeling with established NPC couples like Aurera&Claire, Jaelyn& Daliza and Orlaith&Doireann (some examples) but it just felt like PC was too much of an outsider/bystander in Lia/Azzy considering Azzy is a companion, not like other common NPCs, and how involved pc was in Azzy and Lia's story like the hive quest, etc (not that saving the hive and getting them together require them to reward or include PC but still). It felt like pc wasn't as included (just my personal opinion tho and I'm not as well-versed in polyamory as you are so thank u for ur insight).

Then again I can't expect Azzy to like pc equally as Lia since that's not how emotions work and she did explain Lia isn't as open or used to polyamory as Azzy. I still very much enjoy it whenever they appear in a quest like High Ground and I'm not gonna complain if they can appear more in the story!

 

[Kingu2]

Allow me to link you to the last time this came up, because you can find a screencap from Discord of Tobs (who writes the closest to that tone that anybody does in this game) stating that no, CoC2 is not grimdark.

Wolframe you're smart enough to know that that's not how that works. No amount of authority can outright refute someone's interpretation on a piece of media. No matter who it is, if they're going to claim that what we played isn't a grimdark horror they're going to have to give an actual reason as to why. You're "well Tobs said this on discord so it's not" has about the same effect as "Well my mom said video games lead to violence". How about you actually try to back that up with something, or better yet try interpreting the game for yourself instead just going along with whatever someone else tells you.

Grimdark is about both bleakness and overall agency. In Warhammer for instance, people save the day all the damn time. The 'good guys' beat back the baddies, a planet is safe for a few centuries, ect,

Hell, there are literally countless agriculture worlds where the whole endless war and death stuff never occurs. People just farm to feed the rest of society.

The reason a setting is grimdark is because it is both overall bleak, and there is absolutely nothing anybody can reasonably do to change that.

On the surface, you could consider CoC2 to be those worlds I mentioned earlier. At a glance, things don't seem so bad. There's some nice people, the hero is running around trying to save the day, all that jazz.

Except, you mentioned corruption before? Corruption is awful, but look at what the world is upt to on it's own.

Directly to the east, you have roving bands of marauding rapists and thieves. Sharing this haunt is a tribe of pillaging barbarians from the sea that have come to rape and enslave with the backing of one of the gods of your world.

Underground in this region you have yet another society of slavers, with the most prosperous settlement in the region.

To the north, a settlement of, again rapists and thieves, except instead of physical currency they take your life force. These ones are part of an entire nation that lives like that and has the backing and approval of one of the seven gods in your setting. They are even more cruel in their interactions then the 2 groups listed above.

To the south, you have a society of horse people where the males go out on rape rampages when they're old enough as part of their natural life cycle.

---

You have living gods interacting with and governing the world, and they allow all this to occur. It's only some of the problems in the area too. Then throw corruption and the literal plague of demons that are stealing people's souls through rape induced partial spiritual and mental lobotomies.

Then you move into spoiler territory.

Spoiler: Just go do the Mirrors quest with a guide, whoever has not smh

The gods? They're actually eldritch abominations who are completely apathetic to the plights of mortals unless it inconveniences them, they are allowing the whole demon outbreak to occur out of curiosity of their leader's soul experiments. They are completely beyond your power and the only way you can stop them is to let the sociopathic rapist demon queen win and kill/corrupt the pantheon.

These are the same beings as the wraiths that have a form of soul taking that is worse then a demon's, since they seem to just destroy the original person completely in most cases. And speaking of wraiths? There is a countless number of them, all waiting just outside the material plane for a way in. The barrier between the dream realm and the void is apparently quite thin, as we read during the bird quest.

Every experiment with portals between worlds, with walking the ways between, and perhaps even dabbling in a bit too much dream magic? The potential to fuck up and let an endless horde of lovecraftian horrors into the world, and your only real defense against this is the variable vigilance of the group of lovecraftian horrors that have taken you all as an amusing pass-time.

Hell, a tried and true wraith breaches into the material realm and only one of the Seven actually shows up to fight it, and can easily lose. The rest of them just let this happen, one of whom spends a good amount of their time literally right down the road and can instantly transport himself there at a moment's notice.

---

There is pretty much nothing you can do to actually fix any of the major problems. You can win the day and save a hamlet or city here or there for the moment, but at the end of the day you're just deciding how openly perverse you want your sociopathetic lording assholes from the darkness between worlds to be.

Even if you get strong enough to smite some demon queen hide and then head north to try and help deal with the bigger brewing apocalypse that is the old wraiths amassing power again, there are still the powers of your world that are probably just going to let something like this occur again if it interests them enough. Everything you went through, all the suffering of the people you met along the way, the countless people changed forever by the removal and possible reapplication of their souls, and the experiences all went through in the process, that was all because all of life is prisoner to the whims of cruel and uncaring discount outer gods.

And then everyone else will just go back to raping and enslaving eachother, just this time without risk of demonification, because again the Seven are chill with that. Until someone fucks up with magic and lets the cthulus back in that is, and then you see if this time the slightly nicer eldritch horrors are feelings like saving reality today.

---

It's pretty cut and dry grimdark when you get down to it, though I am not sure if it was done intentionally, or if it is a byproduct of the schizo writing philosophy of some of the people behind the game not knowing if they want it to be a power fantasy or not, resulting in a world that ensures you are effectively powerless in the grand scheme of things no matter how much actual personal strength you accumulate.

But hey, tiddies and dick.

I feel you're looking at this world in the worst possible light. It's fine want to do that but by god is it depressing and I have to wonder if you look all media this way. Even so I think what's missing from this grimdark description is entropy, the overall slow decline into an inevitable death. While death, rape, and slavery can make a setting dark it needs entropy to truly be grimdark. While things are bad in Savarra right now and there are scary void creatures just beyond vale there is no sense whatsoever that things are getting worse, quite the opposite in fact.

You seem very caught up in the fact that the gods were wraths once and probably killed a lot of people but they did ultimately save the world from certain doom and in their current forms are not malicious. They may not be very helpful in the current predicament the world is facing but there's no reason to overthrow them if they're not causing any harm. as for the wraiths outside the border there's no indication of them ever getting back in with only the threat of it being possible when someone fucks around with interdimensional portals.

Elsewise the setting is pretty much the same as it was in history. There's war, death, destruction, rape, and slavery everywhere. Like I said it's a dark setting but it's changing for the better as technology slowly improves, alliances are made, kingdoms are rebuilt, ancient evils are destroyed ad the new evils are being dealt with in one form or another. The PC is more than likely to leave the Frost Marches a better place than when Kas arrived.

 

[Kesil]

All I know is that I wouldn't want to get pregnant and bring new life in such kind world. If I somehow found myself in Savarra, I'd so purchase a brown leaf pouch and consume it as my first action

 

[Animalistic]

Serena has extremely good vag scenes that dont require a cock..

I mean, yeah! But she feels more like an exception rather than a rule (which is what this whole section was referring to).

Jaelyn& Daliza

Now, I do have to disagree with that.
Jaelyn gets forced on us to take her as a maid, so my exceptions would be that she would be at least somewhat champion focused.
Daliza whole ordeal is how she is waiting for us to woo her so that she could get in our pants.
Yet, once you do the latter, game suddenly shifts focus on us getting them together. Where they confess how much they love each other while PC awkwardly watches. Which does make our whole confession with Dal feel like a stepping stone to get them together. Which just rubs me the wrong way.

And to turn it back to our previous topic, as Maid Jaelyn haver, I found it little funny how my vagina champ had 1 scene where she got to join the threesome, one where she could watch and 2 that required her to have penis. It is especially funny because prior to this, Daliza was speaking about how walking into the shower (or something) while Jaelyn was naked (if I remember right) made her realize that she is so gay, with male champ being exception. Yet, vagina champ can only engage with her in 2 scenes while dick champ in 4. I guess she is more into girl with dicks, which is fair. Although her whole sexual awakening was before Jaelyn gained one... Still kind of stings.

 

[AceofSpades]

All I know is that I wouldn't want to get pregnant and bring new life in such kind world. If I somehow found myself in Savarra, I'd so purchase a brown leaf pouch and consume it as my first action

May I ask what your plan is for avoiding hornet pregnancy?

 

[Animalistic]

Beat their assess.

 

[arch99]

Hey, as long as they're not hyper sized, I won't deny it.

Pecs, flat, A-D, chest be chest.

Though if they've got antlers, the no hyper thing goes right out the window.

Wait I'm sorry I have to step back here a moment. Do you think anything larger than D cups is hyper? Cause that is a very warped definition of hyper.

 

[Kesil]

May I ask what your plan is for avoiding hornet pregnancy?

Fire.

 

[Revenant]

established NPC couples like Aurera&Claire, Jaelyn& Daliza

If I remember correctly Jaelyn and Daliza just had a crush and didn't act on it until you literally drag them together in the same room to deal with it, so I wouldn't call them a established couple.

I just decide not to do that choice, though I would like to have an option asking if you wanted it removed, that way it won't sit on Daliza's menu forever.

Jaelyn gets forced on us to take her as a maid, so my exceptions would be that she would be at least somewhat champion focused.

This, all this, I also feel like there should be a few wholesome scenes and not just sex with her, or at least wholesome sex, she seems just as corrupted as before and we are doing nothing to change that, at this rate she may just lose her soul while fucking her in the frosthound while being a little bit careless.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Grimdark is about both bleakness and overall agency. In Warhammer for instance, people save the day all the damn time. The 'good guys' beat back the baddies, a planet is safe for a few centuries, ect,

Hell, there are literally countless agriculture worlds where the whole endless war and death stuff never occurs. People just farm to feed the rest of society.

The reason a setting is grimdark is because it is both overall bleak, and there is absolutely nothing anybody can reasonably do to change that.

On the surface, you could consider CoC2 to be those worlds I mentioned earlier. At a glance, things don't seem so bad. There's some nice people, the hero is running around trying to save the day, all that jazz.

Except, you mentioned corruption before? Corruption is awful, but look at what the world is upt to on it's own.

Directly to the east, you have roving bands of marauding rapists and thieves. Sharing this haunt is a tribe of pillaging barbarians from the sea that have come to rape and enslave with the backing of one of the gods of your world.

Underground in this region you have yet another society of slavers, with the most prosperous settlement in the region.

To the north, a settlement of, again rapists and thieves, except instead of physical currency they take your life force. These ones are part of an entire nation that lives like that and has the backing and approval of one of the seven gods in your setting. They are even more cruel in their interactions then the 2 groups listed above.

To the south, you have a society of horse people where the males go out on rape rampages when they're old enough as part of their natural life cycle.

---

You have living gods interacting with and governing the world, and they allow all this to occur. It's only some of the problems in the area too. Then throw corruption and the literal plague of demons that are stealing people's souls through rape induced partial spiritual and mental lobotomies.

Then you move into spoiler territory.

Spoiler: Just go do the Mirrors quest with a guide, whoever has not smh

The gods? They're actually eldritch abominations who are completely apathetic to the plights of mortals unless it inconveniences them, they are allowing the whole demon outbreak to occur out of curiosity of their leader's soul experiments. They are completely beyond your power and the only way you can stop them is to let the sociopathic rapist demon queen win and kill/corrupt the pantheon.

These are the same beings as the wraiths that have a form of soul taking that is worse then a demon's, since they seem to just destroy the original person completely in most cases. And speaking of wraiths? There is a countless number of them, all waiting just outside the material plane for a way in. The barrier between the dream realm and the void is apparently quite thin, as we read during the bird quest.

Every experiment with portals between worlds, with walking the ways between, and perhaps even dabbling in a bit too much dream magic? The potential to fuck up and let an endless horde of lovecraftian horrors into the world, and your only real defense against this is the variable vigilance of the group of lovecraftian horrors that have taken you all as an amusing pass-time.

Hell, a tried and true wraith breaches into the material realm and only one of the Seven actually shows up to fight it, and can easily lose. The rest of them just let this happen, one of whom spends a good amount of their time literally right down the road and can instantly transport himself there at a moment's notice.

---

There is pretty much nothing you can do to actually fix any of the major problems. You can win the day and save a hamlet or city here or there for the moment, but at the end of the day you're just deciding how openly perverse you want your sociopathetic lording assholes from the darkness between worlds to be.

Even if you get strong enough to smite some demon queen hide and then head north to try and help deal with the bigger brewing apocalypse that is the old wraiths amassing power again, there are still the powers of your world that are probably just going to let something like this occur again if it interests them enough. Everything you went through, all the suffering of the people you met along the way, the countless people changed forever by the removal and possible reapplication of their souls, and the experiences all went through in the process, that was all because all of life is prisoner to the whims of cruel and uncaring discount outer gods.

And then everyone else will just go back to raping and enslaving eachother, just this time without risk of demonification, because again the Seven are chill with that. Until someone fucks up with magic and lets the cthulus back in that is, and then you see if this time the slightly nicer eldritch horrors are feelings like saving reality today.

---

It's pretty cut and dry grimdark when you get down to it, though I am not sure if it was done intentionally, or if it is a byproduct of the schizo writing philosophy of some of the people behind the game not knowing if they want it to be a power fantasy or not, resulting in a world that ensures you are effectively powerless in the grand scheme of things no matter how much actual personal strength you accumulate.

But hey, tiddies and dick.

While there are a lot of things within this world/setting which are dark, you're kind of missing the whole "grim" part of grimdark. A grimdark world is hopeless. There may be individual heroes in Warhammer, but all they can really do is kill things and perpetuate the space-fascists which happen to be the least bad because at least they aren't trying to wipe out humanity. Everything is doomed to a terrible fate, and has been from the start, it just varies on if that fate is death, insanity, enslavement, or a slightly less bad dystopia.

If CoC2 was grimdark, the wraiths would have won the Godswar, or the Gods would be doing a lot worse than they already are. They're non-interventionists because they want people to be self-reliant, so that the mortals can cultivate power and bring down great foes without needing them, and will only directly fight if they determine that people really can not handle things on their own.

While you, the hero of this story, can't fix everything on your own, you can still make things better, particularly with help. Unless you choose some bad end, the story will most likely end with a happily ever after, where your actions matter and impact the social and economic climates of the regions this story takes place in, because you're still the Champion, even if you're not a god. The world is dark, sure, but it's farm from grim. It's far from hopeless.

 

[redlightnin55]

Now, I do have to disagree with that.
Jaelyn gets forced on us to take her as a maid, so my exceptions would be that she would be at least somewhat champion focused.
Daliza whole ordeal is how she is waiting for us to woo her so that she could get in our pants.
Yet, once you do the latter, game suddenly shifts focus on us getting them together. Where they confess how much they love each other while PC awkwardly watches. Which does make our whole confession with Dal feel like a stepping stone to get them together. Which just rubs me the wrong way.

OKAY, I've discovered something rather interesting after reexamining the threesome they have when they sneak off.

I have a post in this thread currently auto-hidden due to me editing it too many times right after posting it (darn my anxiety of not wanting to sound hostile), and in it, I went through Azy and Lia's relationship basically scene by scene. I guess whenever that gets moderator approved you could skim through that to really get my feelings, but I now see a pattern that is related to this. And my feelings on it are even more concrete than before, too. You are totally an outsider to Azy and Lia's relationship once they get together, and you have no romantic interactions with Azy to match the clear affection they have for each other. It feels...crappy.

And after feeling similarly annoyed with Daliza and Jae's stuff, I decided to do a much more brief refresh on that, too. And immediately I can see they're written by the same writer, SKoW. I think maybe...being an outsider to a couple might just be their thing. I'm not shaming, but at this point it's 0 for 2 on the "rewarding for and inclusive of the player" multipartner relationship thing.

To make it clear here, even taking into account the info someone mentioned that they just crushed on each other before but never had a sexual relationship until now, you are immediately made to feel very unspecial once they begin to seek one another out. From moment one of you catching them after they sneak off on their own, Jae has become Daliza's whole world. It even says, quite clearly, that they are intentionally excluding you before you reveal yourself. Daliza is so thirsty for Jae that she's willing to ride her flaccid dick to no effect.

I, frankly, just don't get why these relationships so thoroughly exclude the player from the heavy parts of the romance. Maybe because it just isn't my kink, but it makes it all frustrating and unsatisfying, but at least in this case you can avoid it by not bring Daliza to Jae, unlike with Azy, where just recruiting her forces the situation on you.

 

[Revenant]

I do something similar with Azzy to what I do with Daliza, after you complete the hive dungeon Liaden stays waiting outside of the frosthound for you to interact with her and then go meet Sanders together, I just ignore her and leave her in that spot since she doesn't ask you anything unless you interact with her first, and since that needs to happen first for Azzy to approach the subject of Liaden it never happens in my playtroughs.

 

[cloer]

All I know is that I wouldn't want to get pregnant and bring new life in such kind world. If I somehow found myself in Savarra, I'd so purchase a brown leaf pouch and consume it as my first action

Sounds like what I'm doing in this world, so I guess reality is grimdark. Then again, not having to deal with kids is a huge time and money saver, so, not that bad actually? Ow my brain. It has hurt itself in its confusion

I, frankly, just don't get why these relationships so thoroughly exclude the player from the heavy parts of the romance. Maybe because it just isn't my kink, but it makes it all frustrating and unsatisfying, but at least in this case you can avoid it by not bring Daliza to Jae, unlike with Azy, where just recruiting her forces the situation on you.

Sounds like the author has a bit (or a lot) of an Nice Time for Roo fetish. Not something I can understand, but thanks for the warning, I'll refrain from reintroducing Jae and Daliza. I mean, yeah, for the purpose of blue elf pussy going crazy for me I also have Elthara, but two is better than one (says the guy with a double dicked character)

Hmmm... Daliza/Elthara threesome...

 

[redlightnin55]

Sounds like the author has a bit (or a lot) of an Nice Time for Roo fetish.

That's something I find weird about it as well. I mention it a bit in my big invisible post breaking down Lia and Azy's relationship.

It's not really fetishized heavily or at all--it's not like having Brint stud for you or something like that. You just become an afterthought to the two once they're together, and the same is true for Dal and Jae. Your involvement is either dismissive/straight up immature and dickish anger, or you're awkwardly pushing yourself into a situation where you're not wanted or needed, and the writing makes that quite clear.

If it were studding, or voyeurism, or humiliation, it'd be fine. That's fetish content, clear-cut and plain as day. You know what to get from that and you even have to choose to be exposed to it.

What we get from those two couples? It's not clear-cut and it's not truly an option. It's just...awkward. And a little tone-deaf.

 

[cloer]

Or simply "well, you shouldn't have done this, but you did, so now you have to live with it."

 

[waterpanther7]

OKAY, I've discovered something rather interesting after reexamining the threesome they have when they sneak off.

I have a post in this thread currently auto-hidden due to me editing it too many times right after posting it (darn my anxiety of not wanting to sound hostile), and in it, I went through Azy and Lia's relationship basically scene by scene. I guess whenever that gets moderator approved you could skim through that to really get my feelings, but I now see a pattern that is related to this. And my feelings on it are even more concrete than before, too. You are totally an outsider to Azy and Lia's relationship once they get together, and you have no romantic interactions with Azy to match the clear affection they have for each other. It feels...crappy.

And after feeling similarly annoyed with Daliza and Jae's stuff, I decided to do a much more brief refresh on that, too. And immediately I can see they're written by the same writer, SKoW. I think maybe...being an outsider to a couple might just be their thing. I'm not shaming, but at this point it's 0 for 2 on the "rewarding for and inclusive of the player" multipartner relationship thing.

To make it clear here, even taking into account the info someone mentioned that they just crushed on each other before but never had a sexual relationship until now, you are immediately made to feel very unspecial once they begin to seek one another out. From moment one of you catching them after they sneak off on their own, Jae has become Daliza's whole world. It even says, quite clearly, that they are intentionally excluding you before you reveal yourself. Daliza is so thirsty for Jae that she's willing to ride her flaccid dick to no effect.

I, frankly, just don't get why these relationships so thoroughly exclude the player from the heavy parts of the romance. Maybe because it just isn't my kink, but it makes it all frustrating and unsatisfying, but at least in this case you can avoid it by not bring Daliza to Jae, unlike with Azy, where just recruiting her forces the situation on you.

what if jaelyn is a demon at the wayfort? how does it change things between them?

 

[redlightnin55]

what if jaelyn is a demon at the wayfort? how does it change things between them?

I'm glad you asked because I hadn't even considered it at first.

Going through it now though, it's clear from the beginning that it's just about the two of them. Jae calls you a chaperone, and talks about how she's aware that Daliza's obsessed with her. The champ just kinda dismissively accepts things and shoves the two together. Once the two are together there's some brief emotions touching on Daliza's thoughts about her demonic status, but it doesn't last long before it develops into the same situation.

The second time you bring them together, Jaelyn straight up says she's continued to bone Daliza on her own since then. Apparently not having access to her dick really doesn't impede her in any meaningful way... Which makes me wonder how she's even really a slave if she does whatever she wants anyway.

So yeah, I guess there aren't any particularly big differences. The two still kinda shove you aside for one another, though admittedly it's at least a little less in-your-face about it. Jaelyn does a better job of trying to include you, though it does seem only because you remove her ring so she can fuck Daliza, which is what she seems to actually care about and not as much that you're involved. Daliza just does whatever Jae tells her to, so her focus doesn't change much in this path. Still Jaelyn-brained.

At the very least this is the impression I get from it all. YMMV.

 

[waterpanther7]

i think daliza is still pretty into you.
she even talks about you giving her children one day.
and jaelyn can be rather sweet at times.