Your gripes with CoC II

[Emily Smith]

Evergreen would set off Detect Evil if that were a thing in the setting and the reason more hasn't been done there is that due to how many things Savin's been working on, we've just gotten the last of her base content and there's more to come via expansions. Which side you wind up taking whenever that content arrives is up to you.

You've noticed how she has two different sorts of daughters, right? Some more human-looking and some more furry? There's a reason for that.

Well i noticed the furry ones tend to be kinda bimbofied compared to say Meira and Senja. I take it the reason will be made clear in future content or I've stupidly missed it. What eevr happens I'm team Evergreen.. gotta love ourselfs a sexy villain.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

That's because resolve damage does not always equate to "erotic warfare". If I remember it correctly, it gets also affected by Bimbo Azzyrran's Allure.

Huh, well there's definitely something behind the elemental.

 

[NEEToskihime]

You mean the part after the first dungeon where the Champion's entire movitvation was thrown out the window and it turned out the whole quest (and the entire portal-guarding mechanic, too) were entirely pointless?

Yep, Kinda understand how that champion could start letting themselves turn into a demon after that twist.

 

[Animalistic]

You mean the part after the first dungeon where the Champion's entire movitvation was thrown out the window and it turned out the whole quest (and the entire portal-guarding mechanic, too) were entirely pointless?

Been about 3 years since I actually played CoC so detail are bit fuzzy so forgive if I make mistake but what was wrong with it?

Since, well, it was a pretty nice simple twist. You were never ment to protect your village or people. You were sent there as a sacrefice, as nothing more than tool to appease the beings beyond the temple or something like that. . But now, since you are free of any obligation torwards them, you can chose what you want to become. To either actually turn yourself into lands savior you were supposedly sent there for or its ruler. It makes everything more personal. And frankly, much better from power fantasy perspective since you being the chosen one is not what made you the "champion". You being you is what makes you cool.

It also kind of removes to some extent narrative-dissonance from players perspective. It serves as justification for why supposedly pure champion can get so corrupt so fast. Since, well, once again, they are nothing special. It removes any sense of hurry on players side since they do not really need to save the word imidietly. We learn that it is already ruined, so it is up to us make most out of it. As wise man once said "things can not really get 120 percent more fucked".

 

[NEEToskihime]

Been about 3 years since I actually played CoC so detail are bit fuzzy so forgive if I make mistake but what was wrong with it?

Since, well, it was a pretty nice simple twist. You were never ment to protect your village or people. You were sent there as a sacrefice, as nothing more than tool to appease the beings beyond the temple or something like that. . But now, since you are free of any obligation torwards them, you can chose what you want to become. To either actually turn yourself into lands savior or its ruler. It makes everything more personal. And frankly, much better from power fantasy perspective since you being the chosen one is not what made you the "champion". You being you is what makes you cool.

It also kind of removes to some extent narrative-dissonance from players perspective. It serves as justification for why supposedly pure champion can get so corrupt so fast. Since, well, once again, they are nothing special. It removes any sense of hurry on players side since they do not really need to save the word imidietly. We learn that it is already ruined, so it is up to us make most out of it. As wise man once said "things can not really get 120 percent more fuck".

That is my gripe with CoC 2 the champion has no real reason to go on the corruption path unless they are a complete horndog or a schemer. I think this can be fixed by having scenes where your companions tell the champion to actually explain to them why they are letting demons have sex with them. We get that kinda in the winter city and when the champion lets demons live in Winterfort, but it is more we see the companions angry but seem to get over it by the next scene.

We need the Champion to start facing consequences for this besides a corruption number going up. Like maybe Cait leaves because she starts doubting you have the world's best interest at heart or that she can't live with herself seeing you throw away your soul like that. This could lead to the champion showing their true colors as they could use the The crystal that Kas gave them in the Winter city To recruit Kas to rough up your companions and force them back on your team. Showing the champion has already greatly fallen to corruption to the player and will do anything to stay in control.

 

[Burnerbro]

That's because resolve damage does not always equate to "erotic warfare". If I remember it correctly, it gets also affected by Bimbo Azzyrran's Allure.

Allure and everything in Quin's arsenal do qualify as erotic warfare. So the Earth Elemental being succeptible to them is either an oversight (same as Fire Elemental summon) or, as Lone Wolf said, a clue to something unusual going on.

 

[mikethor007]

Allure and everything in Quin's arsenal do qualify as erotic warfare. So the Earth Elemental being succeptible to them is either an oversight (same as Fire Elemental summon) or, as Lone Wolf said, a clue to something unusual going on.

As Brienne already says as you defeat it, why the heck did the elemental get so mad at the champion as to try and kill him/her and party. Some fuckery going on behind that indeed.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

As Brienne already says as you defeat it, why the heck did the elemental get so mad at the champion as to try and kill him/her and party. Some fuckery going on behind that indeed.

I say it's at one of two places the area straight a head from the gate the green tiles I think that was the colo away from the city, or somewhere in Windy Peaks.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

I mean, from what we see of her Oxana spends all her time breeding little nukis and baking them tasty cookies.

She's also gathering dark arcane knowledge, using children as currency, and literally everyone sees her as evil. Including her creator. Every character who knows her warns the champion to be careful around her because she's dangerous and can't be trusted and will probably try to turn the champion into some tanuki slave if she gets interested enough.

She is barely more proactive than Carmen in a stereotypical reclusive witch kinda way, helping people for an unconventional and morally dubious price. Both the Baroness and Lady Evergreen are shady as fuck and kinda sorta soft confirmed by Aryugia to suck souls or deal very closely with soul suckers. Carmen specifically is a shitty neglectful ruler on top of everything else, one that my more power hungry characters would love to relieve of all those bothersome lands, titles, riches and magic secrets.

Nobody will dispute that Carmen sucks at being in charge. But she's done nothing shady and she doesn't suck souls. She's a cumpire. She literally just sucks dick for sustenance. Which is way different than actually eating souls and everything Evergreen does. Carmen does not belong in the same group with Evergreen and Kas. Unlike those two, she actually tries to help people and just sucks at it. I don't know where you're getting her being evil and/or shady. In short: Carmen=shitty ruler but not a bad person. Evergreen=Dr. Badger but a pregophile instead of bimbophile.

 

[Savin]

Evergreen would set off Detect Evil if that were a thing in the setting and the reason more hasn't been done there is that due to how many things Savin's been working on, we've just gotten the last of her base content and there's more to come via expansions. Which side you wind up taking whenever that content arrives is up to you.

Yeah that. Unfortunately, time constraints being what they are, EG/Carmen plotline keeps getting delayed. It's very interesting IMO but not really pertinent to the main plot. Ideally once Khor'minos is done I'll have the chance to swing back around and fill the Nice and Innocent Witch Ladies out considerably.

Ironically Carmen has the first and oldest card on our Trello organization board. It has never been moved out of "To Do."

You were sent there as a sacrefice, as nothing more than tool to appease the beings beyond the temple or something like that. . But now, since you are free of any obligation torwards them, you can chose what you want to become. To either actually turn yourself into lands savior you were supposedly sent there for or its ruler.

Yeah that's the thing though: you don't actually have any choice outside of bad-ending yourself early. You have no actual REASON to do anything at all after the Factory Dungeon (you don't need to protect the portal. The reason you were in the area in the first place is a lie and you now have no reason to pursue it. The demons' one and only objective in the entire game -- corrupting the Lake -- has been shut down, potentially permanently -- and there's never a single hint that the demons have anything else in the works until the end of the game when it turns out "oh they actually were planning on an invasion after all lol").

The default ending Fen wrote is also entirely devoid of choice in and of itself -- it's entirely reactive based on your Corruption score and how many demons you've killed (the more the better, more or less regardless of Corruption) -- but you at least also get the choice of just becoming Lethice's champion instead of bothering to fight her or (if you have a specific item) redeeming her. So that's nice.

 

[NEEToskihime]

Yeah that's the thing though: you don't actually have any choice outside of bad-ending yourself early. You have no actual REASON to do anything at all after the Factory Dungeon (you don't need to protect the portal. The reason you were in the area in the first place is a lie and you now have no reason to pursue it. The demons' one and only objective in the entire game -- corrupting the Lake -- has been shut down, potentially permanently -- and there's never a single hint that the demons have anything else in the works until the end of the game when it turns out "oh they actually were planning on an invasion after all lol").

The default ending Fen wrote is also entirely devoid of choice in and of itself -- it's entirely reactive based on your Corruption score and how many demons you've killed (the more the better, more or less regardless of Corruption) -- but you at least also get the choice of just becoming Lethice's champion instead of bothering to fight her or (if you have a specific item) redeeming her. So that's nice.

Okay then, but will we eventually start getting more events that can push away our companions?

 

[Skandranon]

Don't care what anyone says Evergreen may be evil (still not seeing it) but damn I'll happily sell my soul to her.. It would be nice to know exactly how many brats we mother/sire for Evergreen though.

Yeah, Evergreen might be my favorite character in the game, along with the dryads.

With all the talk about being able to stop or oppose her somehow, I deeply hope there's a Team Tanuki route.

 

[Savin]

will we eventually start getting more events that can push away our companions?

If people write them. Cait, for example, will never abandon you. You can already get rid of Arona and Azzy.

Just removing Companions is the least interesting possible thing you could do though, imo. Getting them real fucked up or destroying their lives/ambitions/selves is way more interesting. You can already dick over Arona, and I'd like to put more content down her Exile line later (either Bimbofication or Demonification or w/e -- something to balance out losing the Orc Camp on her Chieftain line). You'll definitely be able to really tool Etheryn later re: Soulstone key.

I deeply hope there's a Team Tanuki route.

Oh yeah for sure. If you wanna be Mommy's Favorite Breeder that's totally fine too.

 

[Animalistic]

Yeah that's the thing though: you don't actually have any choice outside of bad-ending yourself early. You have no actual REASON to do anything at all after the Factory Dungeon (you don't need to protect the portal. The reason you were in the area in the first place is a lie and you now have no reason to pursue it. The demons' one and only objective in the entire game -- corrupting the Lake -- has been shut down, potentially permanently -- and there's never a single hint that the demons have anything else in the works until the end of the game when it turns out "oh they actually were planning on an invasion after all lol").

I get what you mean. From plot progression standpoint, the game kind of stops there. But not fault of the twist in itself which is my point.
I would argue that it is what helps the game somewhat chug along to the finish line, no matter how bare bones it ended up being. Since we learn that we do not have really any obligation in protecting the portal, it supports the game more sandboxy feel that was already present up to that point. We can take our sweet time, explore the wild, unfamiliar wasteland at our own pace (still one of the most unique settings found in porn) and meat and interact with locals how we (game) see fit. Not really overarching choices, but many small ones related to different characters. Which was also supported by games portal mechanic which used seamy random encounters and exploration to throw player from one location and character to another.

Which as a motive justifacation, as flimsy as it is, suits the game more. After all, if I remember right, Fenoxo never really had any grand plans to how its story and content was supposed to flow from one another. The game and its contents were just half hazardly thrown together to fill specific different niches and character archetypes. While true it is not really story related drive, it obviously worked since game is still fondly remembered by many. Maybe not for the story and its big bad, but certainly for its characters,world and all different scenarios you found yourself thrown into.

The default ending Fen wrote is also entirely devoid of choice in and of itself -- it's entirely reactive based on your Corruption score and how many demons you've killed (the more the better, more or less regardless of Corruption) -- but you at least also get the choice of just becoming Lethice's champion instead of bothering to fight her or (if you have a specific item) redeeming her. So that's nice.

The default ending is something Fen threw in last minute to shut people up so that they would not bother him to finish the game since at that point production on TiTS was well truly underway if I remember right. Using it as any sort of evidence as to why the game hook does not work is mute point since by its own design, it was created just for ending sake as stop of any hope for continuation. At least from official developers.

Just removing Companions is the least interesting possible thing you could do though, imo. Getting them real fucked up or destroying their lives/ambitions/selves is way more interesting. You can already dick over Arona, and I'd like to put more content down her Exile line later (either Bimbofication or Demonification or w/e -- something to balance out losing the Orc Camp on her Chieftain line). You'll definitely be able to really tool Etheryn later re: Soulstone key.

Oh nice. I was worried that the concept of corrupting/breaking your companion was falling to the wayside. But than again, I only hear it from you and Wsan since you 2 are most active participants when it comes to corruption talk. Not sure about other writers and how they feel about that whole corruption thing.
Still, good to hear that Arona exile route still is on your mind. I am not really into Demofication or Bimbofication, but latter sound better to me. Would something like slave route also be on the table.
As for Ryn, good to know that her bully thing can play major part in how her characters develop. When reffering to Soulstone do you mean us basically gaining the the ability of her sister in when her cage can and can not get off?

 

[LonelyHydra]

You have no actual REASON to do anything at all after the Factory Dungeon

Ah, the eternal tension in RPG design: absolute "WTF to do?" freedom sandbox and a thrilling railroad.

It's made clear when you compare to TiTS. Yes, there's also a rival, but it's also made excessively clear from the start that the player is Heir of Steele Incorporated. It technically makes everything the player does reflective of or off of the Steele Legacy. So the rival feels like he's going steal that Legacy of the Heir doesn't shape up.

I'm sorry but compared to that, Kas as a threat to the World just feels less intrinsically motivating for the Champ. The exception that proves the rule being the romance route in which the Champ goes out of his way to show interest in her. And without a proper setup, I don't know if her just showing up everywhere would improve that.

Which was also supported by games portal mechanic which used semy random encounters and exploration to throw player from one location to another.

I don't think CoC1 had a portal mechanic so much as it used a menu that felt like you zipping around from place to place. Something I also miss.

I don't think much will be lost of Hawkthorne was turned into a menu. There's a reason the old school dungeon crawls went with that.

 

[Burnerbro]

She's also gathering dark arcane knowledge, using children as currency, and literally everyone sees her as evil. Including her creator. Every character who knows her warns the champion to be careful around her because she's dangerous and can't be trusted and will probably try to turn the champion into some tanuki slave if she gets interested enough.

I was mostly joking with my description of Lady Evergreen, mirroring what I thought was your tongue in cheek description of the Baroness. I am aware of the way she grooms her daughters and commits to honest to G-d parental incest; by itself it is almost enough to outweigh the fact that she has most of my top fetishes rolled into one pudgy package. That's why she is on the list and the second we have confirmation of her actually abusing her daughters, she moves to the very top of it, above Kas and Tollus both.

Worth noting that people of Hawkthorne warn the Champion (or rather warn Cait that conveys it to us) to be careful around Oxana, but also say that she has
been a reliable source of aid in various situations that required her knowledge. Similarly, Hinata describes her as being fair, but dangerous and intolerant of people truing to cheat her or those who fail to show proper respect - something very much expected of any powerful witch.

She's a cumpire. She literally just sucks dick for sustenance... I don't know where you're getting her being evil and/or shady.

I never called Carmen evil, I simply don't know enough about her ye to make such judgement, especially since I haven't experienced her latest content drop. As for why I think she is shady and suspect her of non-fun SUCC: when you "feed" Hinata and his group while Atugia is in your party, she volunteers to join, mentioning that she is accustomed to having her abundant life force sucked out of her in a similar fashion by someone else - though she refuses to mention by whom. Then, while the two fox girls feed on her she is surprised by them actually bothering to pleasure her and going with her wishes, instead of simply ripping what they need out of her in a far less pleasant manner, like she is used to. Add to that her life span, her interest in magic, her complete disinterest in mortal affairs, and her hinted ties with other shady magic users, like Lady Evergreen - in total that is enough to earn her a preliminary spot on the list.

Ah, the eternal tension in RPG design: absolute "WTF to do?" freedom sandbox and a thrilling railroad.

The first two installments of Gothic has straddled that line quite well, IIRC. In both the devs de-emphasized the big-bad-stopping-prophecy-fullfilling plot for most of the games' length while still laying down its pieces consistently, focusing instead on interactions with and between factions and on actually overcoming the fact that your character is a fresh-faced rando loser, starting at the bottom of a brutal hierarchy. The game world, relatively small and dense as it was, became open to you almost right away and the game didn't hold your hand. It just had no qualms about pushing your shit in hard if you tried to crawl into places you weren't supposed to be yet, but it rewarded you handsomely if somehow you pulled that off.

 

[Tide Hunter]

I'm sorry but compared to that, Kas as a threat to the World just feels less intrinsically motivating for the Champ. The exception that proves the rule being the romance route in which the Champ goes out of his way to show interest in her. And without a proper setup, I don't know if her just showing up everywhere would improve that.

Kas literally tells the Champ that she plans on stealing their soul later. Sure, the Champ may have intentions of keeping the world safe, but selfish Champs would still be doing something because she made a very real threat against them. She made it very clear that she intends to steal the Champ's soul, and even if you skip past that, there's bold text in the prologue after the Champ wakes up, which is supposed to be dialogue from the Champ themself, about how Kas has stated that she intends to steal their soul.

and her hinted ties with other shady magic users, like Lady Evergreen

It's a bit more than hinted with Lady Evergreen. Komari, the old kitsune matron, was their teacher. Carmen and Evergreen studied magic under Komari, but they split off because of their conflicting ideologies, along with how Evergreen started studying dark magic which was a practice Carmen and Komari disliked.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Add to that her life span, her interest in magic, her complete disinterest in mortal affairs, and her hinted ties with other shady magic users, like Lady Evergreen - in total that is enough to earn her a preliminary spot on the list.

So quick question, have you done the the champion of Hawkethorne ceremony after completing the orc, alraune, and centaur quests? Because you get to talk and ask her about a lot of stuff. Very short non-spoilery version: Carmen HATES Evergreen (which Komari kinda sorta implies once) and she isn't disinterested in mortal affairs. She originally hired the mercs to help the town, ironic I know, and throws money at the nursery to get it started. I don't think you've got an accurate picture of the baroness.

 

[Savin]

and commits to honest to G-d parental incest

No she doesn't

she isn't disinterested in mortal affairs.

She's just a boomer who's out of touch

 

[Emily Smith]

Could the furry bimbo tanukis scattered around moma Evergreens mansion be very unfortunate (fortunate) travelers/adventures that some how crossed the sexy witch?

 

[Lone Wolf115]

Nobody will dispute that Carmen sucks at being in charge. But she's done nothing shady and she doesn't suck souls. She's a cumpire. She literally just sucks dick for sustenance. Which is way different than actually eating souls and everything Evergreen does. Carmen does not belong in the same group with Evergreen and Kas. Unlike those two, she actually tries to help people and just sucks at it.

I thought Carmen was a vampire but now I know she's not, like traditional blood vampire she just gave off the vibe from first looking at her.
How did she learn to do that, I thought it was just a Kitsune thing it doesn't seem like something that can be thought?
Like the fuck?

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

I thought Carmen was a vampire but now I know she's not, like traditional blood vampire she just gave off the vibe from first looking at her.
How did she learn to do that, I thought it was just a Kitsune thing it doesn't seem like something that can be thought?
Like the fuck?

Things like vampires and zombies aren't usually allowed due to Papa Patreon and their hatred of necrophilia. So making her a sex based vampire was probably easier. Her being a cumpire is mentioned in the main design doc. But yeah, she definitely has some serious Carmilla vibes. Also kitsune eat someone's essence. The sex part just has to do with the equivalent exchange thing so ingrained in their culture.

 

[WolframL]

Could the furry bimbo tanukis scattered around moma Evergreens mansion be very unfortunate (fortunate) travelers/adventures that some how crossed the sexy witch?

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

 

[Lone Wolf115]

Things like vampires and zombies aren't usually allowed due to Papa Patreon and their hatred of necrophilia. So making her a sex based vampire was probably easier. Her being a cumpire is mentioned in the main design doc. But yeah, she definitely has some serious Carmilla vibes. Also kitsune eat someone's essence. The sex part just has to do with the equivalent exchange thing so ingrained in their culture.

I've never understood why vampires are considered that, sure their blood stops moving and their bodies are cold but they were alive, know what I'm gonna stop right there. (They still have feelings, so they aren't completely cold.)
But her cumpire thing is related to the Kitsune in some way right? I do appreciate that Keros makes it so you don't have to feed, like I need another priority added to my list off things (still have to make my fox wife a powerful nine tail) and stop a beautiful I mean sexy uhh dangerous yeah that's it dangerous demonness from conquering everything.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

But her cumpire thing is related to the Kitsune in some way right?

As far as I'm aware, no it's not related and I doubt it. But I also don't know for sure.

I've never understood why vampires are considered that, sure their blood stops moving and their bodies are cold but they were alive, know what I'm gonna stop right there

It's a bit of a weird area. I don't view it necrophilia since they don't usually have open wounds or are truly dead like a zombie. But Patreon is not always consistent so it was probably just easier to not have regular vampires in the lore. To be fair, a vampire who lives off of blowjobs is a more general kink than the "I vant to suck your blud" type.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

As far as I'm aware, no it's not related and I doubt it. But I also don't know for sure.



It's a bit of a weird area. I don't view it necrophilia since they don't usually have open wounds or are truly dead like a zombie. But Patreon is not always consistent so it was probably just easier to not have regular vampires in the lore. To be fair, a vampire who lives off of blowjobs is a more general kink than the "I vant to suck your blud" type.

It must be in some way.

I don't either but people like to label shit.
I'm more of a Werewolf person as in I'd rather have the raw physical power. Not the Movie bullshit sides the people took I'm not naming it for everyone's sake, but let's not delve into that hole. At all.
I am a furry after all so I'd rather go for the Lupine look instead, then at least I'd be able to use tools.

 

[Burnerbro]

So quick question, have you done the the champion of Hawkethorne ceremony after completing the orc, alraune, and centaur quests?

Nope, that's the "latest content" I mentioned - though realistically it is her first and atm only significant piece of content, everything before it consists of brief one off interactions and people talking about her. Good to know that you get to have a decent conversation with her. Do you get to finally meet Severine as well during that event, or at least learn more about her?

Can't believe I forgot about the Mercs being under her employ before buggering off to loot and pillage in the opposite direction from all the main trade routes they were supposed to be protecting - and that it would make much more sense to waylay. Their zone placement is weird to say the least.

In any case, combined with the spoilery portion of Tide Hunter's comment, all this does change my opinion on Carmen quite a bit. Still can't help but wonder what 'Tui's comment I described was about, if it is still alligned with canon.

No she doesn't

I assume it got purged to appease the all-seeing eye of the Patreon? It indeed has been a long while since I read the scene or saw the nerds on the forum talking about it.

Good riddance, I'd say. Cause if the Champ can't floof his cute daughteru, why should Evergreen? Makes me wonder what all the control and grooming are for now that the fetish aspect of it is diminished. My money is on body-swapping, keeping the Evil Magic Mom tropes strong.

 

[wery12345]

Isnt is kinda implied in a line of evergreens that she is body swapping in some capacity, if not swapping the memories? At least that is how I read some of the lines.

 

[Emerald]

I assume it got purged to appease the all-seeing eye of the Patreon? It indeed has been a long while since I read the scene or saw the nerds on the forum talking about it.

Good riddance, I'd say. Cause if the Champ can't floof his cute daughteru, why should Evergreen? Makes me wonder what all the control and grooming are for now that the fetish aspect of it is diminished. My money is on body-swapping, keeping the Evil Magic Mom tropes strong.

No, rather she never fucked her blood daughters. Scroll up a bit and you'll see someone speculate correctly about the furry tanuki. In fact it doesn't take a lot of searching in general on the forums to find the truth. But Wolf is right when they say Emily guessed it.
They're not ACTUALLY her daughters, but unrelated adventurers who crossed her iirc. Evergreens REAL daughters are the two half-nukis that stick around, who she does not bang. The furry ones being called her daughters made me think it as well, but then I also read the base design doc and saw that she doesn't tailor to actual incest but rather "faux (fake)-incest". The half-nukis are unfucked, the furries are people that screwed the pooch with her.

 

[LonelyHydra]

Kas literally tells the Champ that she plans on stealing their soul later. Sure, the Champ may have intentions of keeping the world safe, but selfish Champs would still be doing something because she made a very real threat against them. She made it very clear that she intends to steal the Champ's soul, and even if you skip past that, there's bold text in the prologue after the Champ wakes up, which is supposed to be dialogue from the Champ themself, about how Kas has stated that she intends to steal their soul.

I shouldn't have glossed over that, but compare using storytelling shorthand how the nuFenCo MCs are introduced in the tutorial:
TiTS, MC therefore DeadDad therefore Treasure but Rival
CoC2, MC and then Kitty therefore Cultist therefore Demon.

That "and then" would explain how the Champ looks less proactive than Steele, at the start. Ooh I have a another idea for character creation: the player picks their appearance stats when Kasyrra first examines them.