Your gripes with CoC II

[Undecided]

Obviously.


Let me say it like this, it's disconcerting that all three of these together put such great emphasis on martial tradition yet the result is someone who isn't really any stronger than your typical elf or catgirl (at least at first). I'm sure you can attest to someone like Brint fulfilling the very classical "Barbarian Warrior" archetype and he has an abundance of Strength and Toughness. There's a certain juxtaposition here between what the game's descriptions tells you and the actual mechanical outcome, no? Yes there's the affinity system I'm well aware of, but fresh out the gate how does 2 strength represent my character's background?

The initial starting stats don't represent your character's background, no. That's just how game design generally is - if each new character was maxed from the get go (or at least have one high core stat) it would take the progression out of the game.
The game kind of alludes in your PC's backstory that their affinities are the boon they have gained from their prior life - not raw stats. So, your PC would be able to progress much faster in those specific stats than other baseline characters with no affinities for those stats.

It's not always a perfect 1:1, as with the Brint/Brienne Wayfarer's scenario - they have much higher Strength than the PC can achieve - and Atugia has a much higher Toughness than the PC can achieve - but ya know, Companions need something to differentiate themselves.

 

[Furio]

I'd actually be interested in finding out how Strength and Toughness is necessarily differentiated on a physical level in CoC.

 

[WolframL]

Have you never played an RPG before? There needs to be some way to distinguish how good you are at hitting things from how good you are at taking hits. You could also think of Toughness as 'Constitution' or 'Endurance', they're just different names for the same concept. And no, the two traits do not have an intrinsic need to be linked because one can abstract them, such that someone isn't necessarily physically strong but knows how to take a punch regardless, or has a glass jaw but can hit back ridiculously hard.

 

[Furio]

I always found the distinction between Strength and the obligatory Endurance stat arbitrary in most RPGs, and I ask because I'm curious how one would write scenes where Strength and/or Toughness come into play.

 

[Undecided]

I always found the distinction between Strength and the obligatory Endurance stat arbitrary in most RPGs, and I ask because I'm curious how one would write scenes where Strength and/or Toughness come into play.

To my knowledge there are a couple of scenes like this (Strength / Toughness checks).

• Toughness seems to be referenced as Endurance for the most part (in scenes) - as seen here.
• Strength seems to be raw physical capability (for the most part) - as seen Brienne's one pregnancy related scene (need high Strength to overpower her - not even mentioned on the wiki, so no link), Leorah's Bestial sex scene (need high Strength to overpower her - not mentioned on the wiki), and Gwyneth's take into room scene (need high Strength to bridal carry her - not mentioned on the wiki).

I'd suggest having a look at the event writer's guide and the parser documentation.

 

[Furio]

Thank you, I actually took a look at the writer's guide earlier but haven't finished the rest.

 

[Paradox01]

I always found the distinction between Strength and the obligatory Endurance stat arbitrary in most RPGs, and I ask because I'm curious how one would write scenes where Strength and/or Toughness come into play.

A marathon runner wouldn't necessarily be able to deadlift 800lbs while an Olympic weightlifter wouldn't be able to run 26 miles in anything under a couple days. Strength vs Endurance.

In most RPGs, Endurance (or its equivalent) also shows how damage-resistant a character is. One way of explaining this is that with a high Endurance, your PC's body is better adapted to stay in a state of compensated shock - if not putting off the initial effects of shock - for longer than the average NPC before crashing.

 

[Helia]

I think tying roleplay dialogue to combat stats was a poor decision, it limits player freedom in an awkward way. If you wanted to create a character similar to Braela from The Minstrel Pair written by Savin, you can't, because being a charmer/dancer inherently restricts your stat allocation. If you want to be a "barbarian" who values academics and learning the world around them, you are similarly restricted in dialogue.

Being able to respec freely was a very good design choice for a sandbox encouraging player freedom, but I think the game would have benefited from disconnecting roleplay from combat. You can't be a teacher for your daughter unless you pick a specific background/class, you can't get select sex scenes if you pick the "wrong" class, and you can't be "intelligent" if you fight in a certain way.

Overall it doesn't impact a huge amount of scenes, I wouldn't say it is anymore than a minor gripe in the scheme of things, but I feel it is worth acknowledging at the very least.

 

[Furio]

I think tying roleplay dialogue to combat stats was a poor decision, it limits player freedom in an awkward way. If you wanted to create a character similar to Braela from The Minstrel Pair written by Savin, you can't, because being a charmer/dancer inherently restricts your stat allocation. If you want to be a "barbarian" who values academics and learning the world around them, you are similarly restricted in dialogue.

Being able to respec freely was a very good design choice for a sandbox encouraging player freedom, but I think the game would have benefited from disconnecting roleplay from combat. You can't be a teacher for your daughter unless you pick a specific background/class, you can't get select sex scenes if you pick the "wrong" class, and you can't be "intelligent" if you fight in a certain way.

Overall it doesn't impact a huge amount of scenes, I wouldn't say it is anymore than a minor gripe in the scheme of things, but I feel it is worth acknowledging at the very least.

You're forgetting that CoC is also a CRPG, and that alone holds a great appeal and novelty in the midst of the thousands of Text-Fuck CYOA games out there. You say it's constraining to be barred from content, but it's this sort of Skyrim-esque homogenous design that I find so dreadful in the first place, because there's no reaction to how your character is built. Perhaps I can agree that attributes should hold a more general application so you're not too pigeonhole'd into one singular archetype, but I like the flavor of a physically strong enough character able to overpower a brute or an intelligent wizard utilizing creative applications of magic to make sex more fun.

 

[voidrunner]

One of my gripes is Lyric being an item you carry around instead of a recruitable character. Like, I get that the reason is that s/he's small, but as someone who has played multiple kobolds in D&D, you kind of learn their strengths. They can actually be pretty sneaky, good fighters. Plus the fact that they are an item makes them easy to misplace or drop. "Let me just clear my inventory and drop some things... OH GOD, where did I put the kobold?!"

 

[Upcast Drake]

One of my gripes is Lyric being an item you carry around instead of a recruitable character. Like, I get that the reason is that s/he's small, but as someone who has played multiple kobolds in D&D, you kind of learn their strengths. They can actually be pretty sneaky, good fighters. Plus the fact that they are an item makes them easy to misplace or drop. "Let me just clear my inventory and drop some things... OH GOD, where did I put the kobold?!"

Companions require significant commitment. They aren't done willy-nilly. I think there is a big misconception that a CoC2 companion is the same thing as a TiTS crewmate or a CoC1 follower. They're completely different realms of effort.

Also, if you drop Lyric after they're thawed they just go back to Ivris' shop.

I'm picking on you, but it's something I've felt needs said in this thread for a while, you're just the straw on the camel's back so to speak.

 

[voidrunner]

Companions require significant commitment. They aren't done willy-nilly. I think there is a big misconception that a CoC2 companion is the same thing as a TiTS crewmate or a CoC1 follower. They're completely different realms of effort.

Also, if you drop Lyric after they're thawed they just go back to Ivris' shop.

I'm picking on you, but it's something I've felt needs said in this thread for a while, you're just the straw on the camel's back so to speak.

Thank you for the reply ^^ Glad to know there's no permanently losing them if they are dropped.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

The real problem is that we can't use a frozen kobold as a weapon.

 

[Shrike675]

The real problem is that we can't use a frozen kobold as a weapon.

I mean, throwing a frozen kobold is kinda the same as throwing a live one at someone, probably more likely to knock them out than anything else.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Kobold=solid object.
Frozen kobold=solider object.

Furthermore, a frozen kobold would be easier to use as a club than a conscious one would be.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Kobold=solid object.
Frozen kobold=solider object.

Furthermore, a frozen kobold would be easier to use as a club than a conscious one would be.

But a conscious kobold can punch them while you're swinging.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Yeah but then it might do gross kobold things. Better to freeze it and swing it around like a mace.

 

[Emerald]

Yeah but then it might do gross kobold things. Better to freeze it and swing it around like a mace.

Just club a bastard on the side of his head and then when he asks what the everhell it is you let them know you got a literal body as your weapon and aren't afraid to use it.

And then when he's in the middle of going through the 7 phases of disgust and fear (whatever those are lol),

Club him again.

 

[Lotus]

Here's a gripe: Not enough consensual hand-holding.

Seriously though, I get that this is a beat-n-fuck game (if that is how you want to play it), but at some point you'd think the millions of harpies around the foothills would take a step back and go, yeah, maybe chill out a little with this dude. He clearly always wins in battle, and he clearly doesn't mind helping out with the egg-making. Would be nice if at some point the game will include some sort of progression where you can partially pacify certain race groups at least to the point where some or most of them don't immediately attack you upon encounter. I just want to have some friends among the wyverns, or the selkies or something

 

[Savin]

at some point you'd think the millions of harpies around the foothills would take a step back and go, yeah, maybe chill out a little with this dude

The harpies are more than due for a significant expansion, but's is been sandbagged behind renovating the Wayfort... and now me being balls-deep in Tychris and Khor'minos stuff. But Shar/Zhara and the girls have plenty of progression planned

 

[Lotus]

The harpies are more than due for a significant expansion, but's is been sandbagged behind renovating the Wayfort... and now me being balls-deep in Tychris and Khor'minos stuff. But Shar/Zhara and the girls have plenty of progression planned

You have no idea how glad that makes me. <3

 

[Lotus]

Stat checks used in scenes like strength or cunning are seemingly set with no rhyme or reason. For example it takes 66% or more strength to carry Brienne, a 8' 6" amazon, but it takes 80% or more strength to carry Gwyn. There are also some ridiculous checks that you can't ever meet without starting bonuses like needing 95% or more to pick up Ahmri. I feel like these randomly set checks are more tolerable in CoC1 and TiTS since you could train your stats but in CoC2 where stat allocation is stricter I think it's necessary to have some uniformity for these checks. For example, I think it would be simpler if all checks used 0-32, 33-65, 66-100 ranges for low, medium, and high checks so instead of needing all these different range scores to princess carry your waifus, they would all need 66% or more.

I actually forgot about the checks. There are few enough of them for me not to notice. Or maybe that's a playstyle thing. I do agree that they could make better use of checks, but the issue is doubly that events are written by different authors whose disposition towards how the attributs should affect the event vary, and also that there is no clear definition for what any amount of an attribute actually means. What can a hero with 17 agility do that a hero with 15 agility can't? How much Presence is needed to not be a wallflower? Is difficult. Even if you quantify this, the authors still need to care about including it.

 

[Savin]

There are also some ridiculous checks that you can't ever meet without starting bonuses like needing 95% or more to pick up Ahmri.

She's a FUCKING HORSE. A fat horse.

 

[SomeNobody]

She's a FUCKING HORSE. A fat horse.

But when will you give players the opportunity to make her a fat pregnant horse?

 

[Helia]

It rotates pack into the issue I had earlier where-in it's strange that you can't bridal carry someone from an rp perspective if you fight in combat a specific way. I'm glad the game avoids the common trope of bows being dexterity based weapons with the immense upper body strength involved as a positive example, but it's super weird how schooling is tied exclusively to backgrounds that only benefit magical combat, and my attempt to make a stacked amazonian dancer with abs on her abs just ends up with me failing all of her strength checks.

Zephyr's arm wrestling check in Trials had multiple different ways to modify the result including visual attributes, not merely the combat stat. In the same vein, Arona's wrestling scene does the same with agility and strength both being effective (and since most combat classes will have one or the other, it works out, plus you could argue agility based training could go hand in hand with fitness strength).

I can't speak for CRPG's in general, but from what I've experienced, you do get a lot more freedom and leeway (and generally much higher level caps) to tailor your character so you can have a specific combat style without being unable to explore skill checks, and generally roleplay attributes are separate from combat stats.

 

[Savin]

But when will you give players the opportunity to make her a fat pregnant horse?

As soon as Garde writes it.

 

[GraphiteCrow]

hey bud thats my fucking WIFE youre talking about so how about you show some goddamn respect!

pretty sure she is married to the majority of users on here. I guess she could be considered the town Wifecycle

 

[Tide Hunter]

I feel like there's a problem with having checks be tied specifically to the percentage of the maximum anyways, since, like, that means that someone could be capable of lifting Brienne and then be incapable of doing that despite having a higher strength score than they did before, just because of there being a poorer ratio. I don't know how it works, but like, I feel that having it be an either/or thing where you can access the scene if you either pass a percentage threshold or have a high enough pure number to pass a static threshold would be better. Or even just having it only be a static number threshold, since, in terms of actual gameplay, a person with 8 strength will deal more damage swinging a sword than a person with 5 strength (Since you can't get 6 strength from background stuff)). It doesn't matter if the 5 is the absolute max you can have at the time, and the 8 is from passively levelling up, in terms of gameplay the 8 strength is simply stronger than the 5 strength.

 

[Undecided]

I feel like there's a problem with having checks be tied specifically to the percentage of the maximum anyways, since, like, that means that someone could be capable of lifting Brienne and then be incapable of doing that despite having a higher strength score than they did before, just because of there being a poorer ratio. I don't know how it works, but like, I feel that having it be an either/or thing where you can access the scene if you either pass a percentage threshold or have a high enough pure number to pass a static threshold would be better. Or even just having it only be a static number threshold, since, in terms of actual gameplay, a person with 8 strength will deal more damage swinging a sword than a person with 5 strength (Since you can't get 6 strength from background stuff)). It doesn't matter if the 5 is the absolute max you can have at the time, and the 8 is from passively levelling up, in terms of gameplay the 8 strength is simply stronger than the 5 strength.

If we're meta gaming, think of the different stats as proficiencies based upon the PC's level. If >66% of the maximum for the PC's current level is in a specific stat then they're more proficient in that stat and therefore more capable of performing a task related to that (such as overpowering Brienne; or picking up Ahmri if the PC has >66% Strength of the maximum for their current level).

I will admit though, the check is a bit weird, because my PC was >66% for Strength at level 3 / 4, but was only capable of overpowering Brienne at level 5 ish (iirc).
Although the different specifications are identified in the documentation, not sure how they're actually checked for the specific scenes.

 

[Upcast Drake]

Brienne's check is not a simple strength check. It uses a mix of strength and height.