Your gripes with CoC II
- Thread starter Narmlet
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Disabling ALL CGs would be fine. Like I said though, it would be all of them.
Judging by your last three posts, I can only imagine that you're fielding whiny, insignificant gripes from Animalistic in an attempt to help him and becoming more and more frustrated as he nit-picks and shits on every single helpful tip you throw his way.........
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Yeah, that. That would be fine. There are only really few quests related CGs that I like. So I would be fine with disabling them rest of the time when I do not want to engage with them. Sure it is more work on my part, but better then nothing. And could it also remove the boxes that contain pictures?
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The PC's behavior during the latest Kinu quest is seriously aggravating me. He seems to be justifying wanting to constantly protect Kinu from all the dangers of the world, but I find this desire very hypocritical for someone who's facing danger on a near-daily basis (you're about to deep-dive into the ocean to fight an eldritch monstrosity you fucking daredevil). Hime Kinu points this out a little bit during her closing dialogue with him, but he deserves a bigger callout than this. I hope that our PC has some serious introspective or a talk with another character about it maybe Miko, Mai or hell even Kiyoko, idfk I'll take anyone, even Nakano.
In my opinion, the fact that Hime Kinu felt the need to hide this information from the PC in the first place speaks volumes, and not about her; the closing sentences where she gives him the cold shoulder demonstrates why. Hime needs someone to open up to after bottling up her emotions for so long, but the PC's blatant hypocrisy has made her distrustful of the PC, and rather than focus on this unmet desire, the PC's inner monologue focuses AGAIN on how much her childhood innocence has been robbed, and to me this just smacks of selfishness. Too bad, you don't get to raise an adorable little kit, get over it, she nearly fucking died and you're focusing on "oh no your childhood, blz be safe". To me, this is a parent that's failing at their job, and if tobs insists on scripting the player's response to the Kitsune content in general like this, I hope the PC gets the callout they deserve.
I hate that this questline is making me hate my own character, my own avatar, when I know that this is totally out of character for him. Just shut the fuck up about her innocence or whatever and give her a fucking hug, tell her how strong she is for SUCCESSFULLY putting on a brave face for others while almost never crying the process, and then explain to her that it's okay to cry in front of you of all people, because of all the people she knows, you're the best candidate to be the target of her venting, being both her father and a foreigner. There are wolves, rape flowers and painted demons just outside her home, and you think you can preserve her innocence in this world forever you demon-hunting dumbass? Your cunning is maxed you stupid fucking idiot, I know you know better. Fuck. (edited an extra clause to a sentence to make it coherent)
In my opinion, the fact that Hime Kinu felt the need to hide this information from the PC in the first place speaks volumes, and not about her; the closing sentences where she gives him the cold shoulder demonstrates why. Hime needs someone to open up to after bottling up her emotions for so long, but the PC's blatant hypocrisy has made her distrustful of the PC, and rather than focus on this unmet desire, the PC's inner monologue focuses AGAIN on how much her childhood innocence has been robbed, and to me this just smacks of selfishness. Too bad, you don't get to raise an adorable little kit, get over it, she nearly fucking died and you're focusing on "oh no your childhood, blz be safe". To me, this is a parent that's failing at their job, and if tobs insists on scripting the player's response to the Kitsune content in general like this, I hope the PC gets the callout they deserve.
I hate that this questline is making me hate my own character, my own avatar, when I know that this is totally out of character for him. Just shut the fuck up about her innocence or whatever and give her a fucking hug, tell her how strong she is for SUCCESSFULLY putting on a brave face for others while almost never crying the process, and then explain to her that it's okay to cry in front of you of all people, because of all the people she knows, you're the best candidate to be the target of her venting, being both her father and a foreigner. There are wolves, rape flowers and painted demons just outside her home, and you think you can preserve her innocence in this world forever you demon-hunting dumbass? Your cunning is maxed you stupid fucking idiot, I know you know better. Fuck. (edited an extra clause to a sentence to make it coherent)
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My personal gripe is that it's never quite clear how to do things that patches add. Case in point, turning Cait into a leothran. Previously: siorcanna shaman is a random encounter, kinda figured she'd be an integral npc that helps you in the rift. Sure, it's fun to discover by myself, but a descriptive patch note on the forums might help sometimes. Had to go to the wiki to discover the blue giant / twin quest in the frost marches is what unlocks the new dialogue with River back when that was added, and that was only a few weeks after the actual release, when people discovered that. Still love the game but wish it wasn't as hard to figure out who does what how when.
I sorta feel that about a lot of the PC's interactions with Kinu. And while it too goes against the personality I've established for my character, I'm not about to hold the authors accountable for anything that contradicts how I view my own character as the only one responsible in that situation is me for running with my headcanon beyond the bounds of the game. However it seems to kinda contrast the PC's established personality in the game as well. And while I understand the concept of "It's different when it's family" it still feels a bit jarring and I can't help but wonder what the payoff for portraying the PC in such a manner will be.
Kinda agree on the points made about Kinu tbh, though with my character it kinda fits. He's a powerful black mage who faces constant danger out there in the world, and that's the only way he knows to protect his friends and children. He hasn't had the time nor can he make the time to settle down and be with family, because he must keep searching for Kasyrra and stopping her corruption of the entire world. For all he knows, if he stays just one week with his family to learn how to be a father and a husband the way those roles are meant to be, Kasyrra could win. Every time he gets to fight Kasyrra or her minions, he knows he's putting her more and more on edge, as while she's toying with him, and she wants him to grow more powerful before consuming him, both Kasyrra and my PC know that the moment she'd best attack him is when he's just slightly weaker than she is, and at the rate he's growing, that moment could pass anytime. Kasyrra must be aware of that, too.
So while yes, I agree that there should probably be options to be a proper parent to any of the children you can potentially have, I also can understand how any PC would be incapable of it during the game, as they're generically young, for all we know parentless, and wanderers. All of their relationships are based on lust, and while they may say they love someone, they can't get to know them in day to day life beyond threatening situations.
In short, the PC is immature, and that explains them failing at parenting, just as they fail at having a serious relationship with anyone.
The PC in CoC was much the same, and the most parent-worthy thing you can do in that game is train Helspawn to be able to survive, teach her moderation, and teach her not to be a slut. Kinu was already trained in combat by her mother with or without PC's help, she knows moderation as part of the Kitsune culture, having to be exemplary to others, and while she technically is a slut like any other kitsune, she's not rushing to become her mother, neither hime Kinu nor hippy Kinu. The PC couldn't teach her much more than that. Kinu needs parents to be there for her, and the PC can't provide during the game. Provided both PC and Kinu survive in the long term, sure, I can see the PC starting to take the Kitsune culture more seriously and actually trying to be a parent.
So while yes, I agree that there should probably be options to be a proper parent to any of the children you can potentially have, I also can understand how any PC would be incapable of it during the game, as they're generically young, for all we know parentless, and wanderers. All of their relationships are based on lust, and while they may say they love someone, they can't get to know them in day to day life beyond threatening situations.
In short, the PC is immature, and that explains them failing at parenting, just as they fail at having a serious relationship with anyone.
The PC in CoC was much the same, and the most parent-worthy thing you can do in that game is train Helspawn to be able to survive, teach her moderation, and teach her not to be a slut. Kinu was already trained in combat by her mother with or without PC's help, she knows moderation as part of the Kitsune culture, having to be exemplary to others, and while she technically is a slut like any other kitsune, she's not rushing to become her mother, neither hime Kinu nor hippy Kinu. The PC couldn't teach her much more than that. Kinu needs parents to be there for her, and the PC can't provide during the game. Provided both PC and Kinu survive in the long term, sure, I can see the PC starting to take the Kitsune culture more seriously and actually trying to be a parent.
I can see where you're coming from with that perspective but at the same time that falls pretty heavily under player headcanon. The reason you know so little about your characters backstory is to let you plug whatever reasoning you may want into how your character ended up how and where they are (and, equally, because that'd probably be a nightmare to implement and do anything meaningful with.) The closest you get is the background you choose and even that is cryptic at best. I feel a lot of my issues with it overall would be fixed by some sort of player given feedback but that may also be a bit of a difficult thing to implement given that the scenes are full conversations with a lot of thoughts exchanged by both sides.
I guess my issues ultimately lie in the portrayal of the character being overbearing to that degree when there's little to no precedence set for that kind of behavior. When I think about it I can connect the dots as to WHY they may be that way but it feels a bit odd that it's such an important character trait that you don't really have a say over.
In the grand scheme of things, it's really just "eh, I can honestly just headcanon that out that personality trait." And I still love Kinu and the rest of the Kitsune. These are just my own thoughts on what ReDead posted.
I guess my issues ultimately lie in the portrayal of the character being overbearing to that degree when there's little to no precedence set for that kind of behavior. When I think about it I can connect the dots as to WHY they may be that way but it feels a bit odd that it's such an important character trait that you don't really have a say over.
In the grand scheme of things, it's really just "eh, I can honestly just headcanon that out that personality trait." And I still love Kinu and the rest of the Kitsune. These are just my own thoughts on what ReDead posted.
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I think a lot of games wherein there is personalization / customization of your character will result in players feeling that it doesn't meet their understanding or head-canon for their character. Unfortunately that's just the result of writers writing their perspective or narrative for characters in their game / story they wish to tell.
In games where you play a specific character (with no personalization / customization) this is not an inherent issue, because it's apparent that no matter what actions the character does / what the character says - it's not you (assuming you're not RPing as that character) - so the results don't matter for head-canon (only continuity issues would matter for the character - but that'd be from a writing perspective).
End of the day though, things will always be interpreted subjectively - whether they deserve scrutiny or not is just so as well.
In games where you play a specific character (with no personalization / customization) this is not an inherent issue, because it's apparent that no matter what actions the character does / what the character says - it's not you (assuming you're not RPing as that character) - so the results don't matter for head-canon (only continuity issues would matter for the character - but that'd be from a writing perspective).
End of the day though, things will always be interpreted subjectively - whether they deserve scrutiny or not is just so as well.
There is something to be noted that the Kitsune content unlike all the rest often portrays the Champion as being "wrong" for wanting to have any part in events and needing to be explicitly chastised for it.
Which is what gives people the feeling that the writing of this part of the game is disjointed from the rest, as if it almost takes issue with the presence of the Player Character "intruding" and would rather be its own story with kitsune protagonists.
Which is what gives people the feeling that the writing of this part of the game is disjointed from the rest, as if it almost takes issue with the presence of the Player Character "intruding" and would rather be its own story with kitsune protagonists.
I mean, you literally are an intruder in every sense. Even when you become one, you most definitely are not one in spirit yet. Some people are just going to have to get used to the fact that you likely won't be much more than a welcomed outsider until probably epilogue times.
The kitsune content feels fine until we get to kinuquest. It feels like it belongs as its own game and like the story is written to say the player is wrong for wanting any involvement. But that feeling of "piss off, how dare you want agency" doesn't appear in the rest of the kitsune content. Even when Kiyoko is saying we have no input, that feels like adjusting to a multicultural family as opposed to how kinuquest does it. I'm hoping it's building up to a final dungeon where the player and guest star party member Kinu finally put Raphael in his place. But as it stands, it seems Kinu is the protagonist of a completely separate game and like she wants to tell us off. Her reactions make sense from a writing perspective, but from the player's it feels frustrating. So far we can't even train her and help her, or the other floof children, learn to fight against non kitsune opponents. I already feel enough like a deadbeat mother.
Well, Kinu was trained by Kiyoko with both the naginata and the bow, while residing in the timeless plane inside the pendant. One can assume such training took months if not years. Kitsune are perfectionists, and Kinu would be expected to master these weapons before coming of age. One can assume the rest of the children are at least getting basic combat training in a similar manner, but indeed the focus was on Kinu to follow in her mother's footsteps. Kiyoko defended her home to the very end, and Kinu was likely trained to the extent where she'd be able to do the same. Anything the PC could teach Kinu would be either messing with her existing melee/ranged training, or teaching her magic that would be considered strange in her people's culture and make her unfit as an example, as she'd be using foreigner magic.
Fair points, but you can already get involved in magic training as part of a quest in the astral plain to help her learn magic and Kiyoko has no issue using general spells that everyone else can. Furthermore her existing training is primarily against other kitsune as that's who exclusively trained her. The puppet stress test shows that the kitsune aren't really clear on how the various races in the area fight. At the very least, sparring against the player and their companions would give her practical experience and let her train against someone who who fights in a wildly different way than she's used. Just because the forest she lives in is mostly safe once she moves there, doesn't mean it always will be. And I'm not talking about Raphael. Kasyrra could easily fly back there and mess around with everything again. Excessive Weebery and studying the blade can only get you so far, as I've already showed Nakano of all people.
I should've been more clear about the "out-of-character" comment. I wasn't complaining about some headcanon OC acting differently in a game not written by me, that'd be a ridiculous complaint. It's internally OoC compared to other moments in the game.
But it's clear that tobs is set on writing the character this way during the events of Kinu quest, which is why that, if nothing else, I hope that they get the callout they deserve from another NPC. Maybe he gets frustrated with how Kinu behaves and talks with another parent like Gwyn or something, or mayeb one of the team-mates comments on his handling of Kinu's situation. Someone here described the game's story as the PC's journey of self-discovery when faced with temptation, adversity, and responsibility. This can play well with the writing Kinu quest currently has. But with how Kinu quest ended this tme around, I can't help but get the impression that the PC isn't learning from their mistakes. At this rate, when Kinu succeeds at capturing Raphael, it'll be in spite of the champion's "help" rather than because of it. After all, the champion has done the opposite of helping hime Kinu throughout the entirety of the questline, and hime Kinu closed herself off further from the PC, giving her one less pillar to lean on. What will happen if she loses Nakano too? If the PC doesn't have their act cleaned up by then, Kinu is going to go through a lot of struggle that wouldn't be AS bad if she thought she could trust the PC with anything involving her feelings.
A few days to teach Kinu a few of our spells to use in her questline wouldn't hurt. In fact it'd be kind of cool. Aren't we already able to waste time teaching Shar and that one chick named Minerva how to fight? The PC already wastes a bunch of time doing other things, helping random people that don't matter in the grand scheme of things, so why not offer the same time to your daughter who currently has a very present threat aimed entirely at her. The "can't make time" argument is really weird in the context of what we can already do in CoC2.
Even an ignorant western gaijin like me finds the PC's behavior to his daughter deplorable, and that's where the complaint is. Respect is a universal language, and the pure PC demonstrates respect frequently throughout their adventure, whereas their possessiveness of Kinu is asinine, urealistic, and selfish.
But it's clear that tobs is set on writing the character this way during the events of Kinu quest, which is why that, if nothing else, I hope that they get the callout they deserve from another NPC. Maybe he gets frustrated with how Kinu behaves and talks with another parent like Gwyn or something, or mayeb one of the team-mates comments on his handling of Kinu's situation. Someone here described the game's story as the PC's journey of self-discovery when faced with temptation, adversity, and responsibility. This can play well with the writing Kinu quest currently has. But with how Kinu quest ended this tme around, I can't help but get the impression that the PC isn't learning from their mistakes. At this rate, when Kinu succeeds at capturing Raphael, it'll be in spite of the champion's "help" rather than because of it. After all, the champion has done the opposite of helping hime Kinu throughout the entirety of the questline, and hime Kinu closed herself off further from the PC, giving her one less pillar to lean on. What will happen if she loses Nakano too? If the PC doesn't have their act cleaned up by then, Kinu is going to go through a lot of struggle that wouldn't be AS bad if she thought she could trust the PC with anything involving her feelings.
No one in their right mind is going to shun her for using "foreigner magic," what the hell? Racial pride is bad but not in THAT way. They didn't exactly object to you giving them the Spiraled Blade/Staff. They wouldn't object to salavaging old Belhar technology to use for themselves. They wouldn't object to using Belharan portal magic for themselves. In real-world history and in-game history, imperialism includes assimilation of technologies into one's own culture. Thus, no kitsune would chastise Kinu for using "foreigner magic." That'd be hilariously dumb. "Kinu, I'm going to teach you a dirty technique called Dastardly Blow." "But father, あなたがパーティーをしている間、私はボイドを研究しました"
A few days to teach Kinu a few of our spells to use in her questline wouldn't hurt. In fact it'd be kind of cool. Aren't we already able to waste time teaching Shar and that one chick named Minerva how to fight? The PC already wastes a bunch of time doing other things, helping random people that don't matter in the grand scheme of things, so why not offer the same time to your daughter who currently has a very present threat aimed entirely at her. The "can't make time" argument is really weird in the context of what we can already do in CoC2.
It seems pretty understandable that a veteran adventurer might want to handle this kind of thing instead of letting their kid with minimal practical experience in fights to the death do it. Its easy for us to say 'she has to do this herself its part of her growth and the story of Kinu maturing and gaining independence' because we know if we screw up during Kinu quest we can just reload the last save file and do it again with no danger of ever 'really' getting her killed while the champion sits back and lets her have at it because 'she has to do this herself'. But from the Champion's perspective in story their daughter is trying to insist on taking on a powerful enemy who made total sport of them in a needlessly reckless manner that endangers herself and others when she has a plethora of less risky options. What sane parent is going to sit back and without complaint let their kid risk their neck like that when they have such a huge capacity to step in and lessen the odds of their fox daughter getting literally turned into a fur coat by a murderous maniac?
Again I feel you are kind of being unfair here. Waking up one day and finding out you have missed a decade or so of your child's life is a huge thing to deal with and the Champion has had little time to process it. You are asking a lot of them in saying they should already just be totally over it after maybe a few months. If anything this seems to clash with your rant about them being a bad parent, pretty sure that only a truly shitty parent would just go 'meh, whatever, so I missed out on most of your life time to move on' instead of being riddled with regret. Though I do agree that we do seem to be going too far with it and letting it prevent us from offering the best emotional support we could when our daughter is going through a crisis.
I do agree that it would be nice to have a bit more choice to choose how the character reacts, even if I find the current only reaction allowed completely understandable. I like the kitsune family plotline a lot (never expected to get that invested in family I made in a game like this) but it does seem to be tossing in a lot of low blows that we aren't allowed any chance to avoid between the drama of missing out on watching the kids grow up, having to deal with getting a cold shoulder from the rest of the kitsune and making our families reintegration to society somewhat awkward unless we literally sell our soul, and now being forced to sit back and watch Kinu take on murderers without our help (and even being chastised for the entirely reasonable stance of wanting to be involved in the endeavor, we don't even have the option to do something relatively hands off like insist she go through training with us or something) and watching it wreck our relationship with her. Also, it kind of hurt that she thought so poorly of my character that she was scared of telling me she was engaged to Nakano because she was afraid I'd react badly (haven't done a Inari Shoujo yet so don't know if she does something similar) and dragged her heels so long I found out about it by the rumor mill instead of from family. Was all like 'bad enough I missed out on stuff because of time speed differences but now I'm missing out because you actively chose to exclude me from hearing about your life? Just go ahead and bury the knife in my heart already kid'.
We can help her without holding her hand and solving it for her by helping train her. Raphael just plays around while fighting her no matter what. She's not ready to face off against someone like him. A switch up to training could really help. As it stands, I agree. She's taking really unnecessary risks that could backfire on her and anyone near her. I don't want to try and visit her one day and find out she went and got herself killed out of pride or some other reason. To be fair, Inari Kinu said something to the effect "Don't turn into someone I don't recognize for my sake" after Kinuquest 2, and that felt like a more reasonable response than just "Gosh leave me alone mom! I'm a big girl now, I can totally win eventually!". Also Inari Kinu doesn't tell you because she's worried you'd react like Kiyoko did. Again, to be fair, she hasn't seen in you 10 years. She wouldn't know how you'd react. It still hurts though. Like Hime is ashamed of me and Inari just keeps at arm's length half the time. I get why they are that way, but feels like I'm being punched in the emotions because what were most likely Keros's actions and it's easier for Kinu to blame the player than the patron deity of her species. I'm not saying we impart all our abilities and knowledge on her, just help her expand her fighting experience.
Plus, what would happen if Raphael attacks the home again, while Kiyoko, Player, AND Kinu are out this time? It's not clear if the other floofs have any training at all, I'd feel safer if I could at least teach them something and I'd get to spend time with them. I mean, Aya's already turned to drugs, I'm failing my kids. She didn't even learn it from watching me. I couldn't even be a bad influence. And it'd be funny to see Nakano's face to see a squad of my kids fighting and kicking ass like *GASP* barbarians. And Kinu doesn't have to worry. If I really had a big problem with Nakano marrying her, we'd have had a very different conversation. And I'm sure even Nakano knows that. Hitoshi Gang 4 Lyfe.
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I don't think anyone is really arguing against the fact that finding out that much of your own daughters life passed in a mere few hours is damaging, we're more commenting on how the PC is essentially bottlenecked into handling this revelation. There's a healthy way to handle wanting to be apart of your child's life again and then there's this, which breeds the exact kind of resistance that Kinu is showing. Kinu went a majority of her life without you in it and even if circumstances made that unavoidable there's still no way to prevent that from influencing how she turns out. Just because you're back in her life now isn't going to instantly make her turn to you when something like this happens, especially when you consider that despite being back in her life you are still gone most of the time dealing with your own problems. Can you really blame her for not immediately coming to you with everything when you're hardly ever around? What she needs more than anything in this situation is understanding and support, not a parent who makes them feel bad for taking care of herself as she's always done.
At the very least I would like the option to simply choose whether or not my character can be that kind of parent. In most every other scenario in this game facing the consequences of actions you took are because you as the player chose to take those actions. This is one of the only instances I can currently think of where the choice was made for you and you get to feel bad for choosing it. Bad writing? Not in the slightest. Very well handled given what the characters have been through, and I'd happily eat this story up in a standalone context because it IS well written. But does it fit with how the rest of the game presents itself? Unfortunately not really.
At the very least I would like the option to simply choose whether or not my character can be that kind of parent. In most every other scenario in this game facing the consequences of actions you took are because you as the player chose to take those actions. This is one of the only instances I can currently think of where the choice was made for you and you get to feel bad for choosing it. Bad writing? Not in the slightest. Very well handled given what the characters have been through, and I'd happily eat this story up in a standalone context because it IS well written. But does it fit with how the rest of the game presents itself? Unfortunately not really.
I agree with this as well, don't get me wrong. She needs a lot of things, like someone to just listen to her and tell her she can come vent whenever she wants. But we're forced to be crappy parents. I don't blame her at all, and I'd love an option to react in a better way instead of breaking character. It is definitely great writing, we care enough to discuss it and analyze it after all. But I've gotta echo yours and others' sentiments that as a player, it's frustrating to be railroaded into being shitty and out of character and being punished for it when we had no option. Just having a different reaction shouldn't cause a big divergence and would feel better.
I think there are a couple of issues at play here - one, the problem of the blank canvas RPG protagonist. Endlessly imprintable, but very passive. The solution is to write personality for your protagonist but then players will sometimes feel like it doesn't represent them. If the author is going to write the protagonist doing anything other than sitting there with a dumb look on their face it's going to invalidate someone's headcanon.
(This issue is greatly heightened when the author writes the protagonist taking sub-optimal action. I personally don't have an issue with my early 20s(?) hero with practically zero parenting experience who suddenly has an adult daughter nearly their age not reading the room properly, but being an inconsiderate boob ruins the power fantasy a little bit. Also if the player character had an option to violently murder Raphael and his little child-murder crew I would be there instantly those fox-morphs would be more dead than a cultist in the Winter Wolf flashback. Sorry Kinu, you can have agency and responsibility later.)
Two, time constraints. For every personality choice the player gets to make, that's exponentially more time the author has to spend writing it. And for better or for worse, we're at the point now where we know The Observer has a story they'd like to write and they're going to write it that way. You as a parent are a supporting character in Kinu's narrative, so you will be written to put you where you need to be for Kinu to shine. And if you don't like it, well, it's probably not changing.
Finally, it's an incomplete narrative. Kinu and the player character haven't reached a happy supportive resolution yet because we're midway through the story. The Observer is writing a character with flaws, it stands to narrative structure that some progress is going to be made on those flaws by the time we get to KinuQuest resolution.
Ultimately I think the fact people keep talking about it reflects well on The Observer's writing. Even if some of the talking is this thing made me mad and I don't like it.
(For the record the main thing that makes me mad is dying repeatedly against Raphael. I have four mains and counting which means beating that battle at least four times which is troublesome. Raphael aims an attack! Your arrow goes wide! Raphael stabs you to death!)
(This issue is greatly heightened when the author writes the protagonist taking sub-optimal action. I personally don't have an issue with my early 20s(?) hero with practically zero parenting experience who suddenly has an adult daughter nearly their age not reading the room properly, but being an inconsiderate boob ruins the power fantasy a little bit. Also if the player character had an option to violently murder Raphael and his little child-murder crew I would be there instantly those fox-morphs would be more dead than a cultist in the Winter Wolf flashback. Sorry Kinu, you can have agency and responsibility later.)
Two, time constraints. For every personality choice the player gets to make, that's exponentially more time the author has to spend writing it. And for better or for worse, we're at the point now where we know The Observer has a story they'd like to write and they're going to write it that way. You as a parent are a supporting character in Kinu's narrative, so you will be written to put you where you need to be for Kinu to shine. And if you don't like it, well, it's probably not changing.
Finally, it's an incomplete narrative. Kinu and the player character haven't reached a happy supportive resolution yet because we're midway through the story. The Observer is writing a character with flaws, it stands to narrative structure that some progress is going to be made on those flaws by the time we get to KinuQuest resolution.
Ultimately I think the fact people keep talking about it reflects well on The Observer's writing. Even if some of the talking is this thing made me mad and I don't like it.
(For the record the main thing that makes me mad is dying repeatedly against Raphael. I have four mains and counting which means beating that battle at least four times which is troublesome. Raphael aims an attack! Your arrow goes wide! Raphael stabs you to death!)
I understand the rest of your post but take offense to this statement. I'm not unwittingly arguing from a meta perspective, I deliberately avoided that. I'm saying that the PC doesn't realize just how often they risk their own life and I called them a hypocrite for it. They should instead be arguing that Kinu needs consistent aid with her at all times if she's going to do anything dangerous, emphasizing that the PC themself wouldn't last a second out there if they facef half the challenges they did on their own; and that Kinu needs to be more open-minded about accepting training from him. "But father, Kasyrra and the demon threat..." This "Lord Taoth" could be a terrifying threat to the whole of the Frost Marches in his own right, and thus warrants your attention.
Appeasing everyone's headcanon is doomed to failure, which is why there are a few set personalities the PC can have that are accomodated for in most in-game dialogue (pure champion, bimbo, and Dark Knight). But with KinuQuest we're inexplicably forced with into a singular personality that feels different from all the rest of them. idk what to call it but I don't like them so I'll call them Nimrod. Nimrod is not the hero we see outside of KinuQuest, and they will only exist in KinuQuest, and that's where complaints about the PC's behavior are mainly coming from.
It's a narrative in progress, which means that the ending isn't set in stone. Authors can change their mind if they want to. Hopefully no one ever takes any this too personally and starts to harrass tobs over it (if someone considered doing this they should bap themself), and that's not what anyone here wants to do. We're allowed to criticize what we read and add our own thoughts. And yes, this does have potential to influence the author's decision making, and that's fine. You are trying to be thoughtful with this post, but this is either stuff that most people here are already aware of, or unwittingly gives off an air of "suck it up, buttercup," which feels disrespectful for the people actually experiencing the narrative. My concern with it was that the PC wasn't going to learn anything from their mistakes in interacting with Kinu until it was too late, and that they're going to continue to act contrary to how they act in the game. I and clearly many others felt compelled to point out, so maybe there's something to what we're saying after all. His writing is fantastic, but we're allowed to comment on its direction when compared to the rest of the game.
Honestly, this reminded me of when I was reading a thread about the Kitsune and people talked about how, after releasing their family and seeing the result and how they were treated and ostracized for releasing them because of the missing decade, they just said "on further playthroughs, I just won't let them out." This reminds me of that mentality, how it struck so hard that they'd be willing to go against what they'd otherwise view as right and basically betray their loved ones just so that they can have this idealized relationship, this perfect little bubble life where they could be set free but they won't because the alternative is having to deal with the mental turmoil of being treated like shit after loosing out on so much time.
That said, they weren't the only people in that thread, and they aren't the only people who play this game. The problem is, as many people have said, that in this game where the Champ is largely determined by the player's actions (even the aspects which aren't directly the player going "I want this" are impacted by things like corruption, transformations such as the bimboification, or just how you treat characters and people such as if you act caring enough towards Etheryn to raise her confidence), this is of absolutely no choice. Even just an illusion of choice, where your Champ will react poorly in a way that misunderstands Kinu and how she feels, would be better served by having some flavor choice. People would complain about an illusion of choice of course, whether it be the Fallout 4 method of giving you three different ways of saying yes or the Hive method of making one choice much more unappealing than the other, but it can still lend itself to showing the actual character of the Champ overall rather than taking every single type and pressing them into one tiny, unchanging mold.
I think one thing that's been left out of all this is that your daughter isn't alone in all of this; she has the support of the entire colony behind her. Every individual to which you can talk about with regards to the situation has updated context after every step in the chain, and if you get Kohaku killed it's pointed out not so subtly that she sees it as her duty to die so your daughter doesn't have to. Now you too can be a human bullet, etc, etc, etc.
The important thing is that those are her friendships and connections, not yours. And yes, there is a disconnect from the PC in that I've deliberately kept him or her de-emphasised in this storyline.
The important thing is that those are her friendships and connections, not yours. And yes, there is a disconnect from the PC in that I've deliberately kept him or her de-emphasised in this storyline.
The concept of a unique daughter that's the main character of her own story that you have limited agency over is very unique. It's a theme of parenthood, and the story wants the player to experience the struggle of being a parent that has to watch as their offspring is forced into life-threatening situations outside of anyone's control, and there's nothing they can do about it. It might be difficult to appreciate this theme in the middle of a power fantasy game like CoC2, and it's arguable that such a theme is poorly placed in any RPG, but it's also arguable that this serves to make the contrast more poignant. To me, this is a fantastic theme that doesn't get explored enough in popular media (or at least not with any nuance). This oft-neglected theme is what made me fall in love with this whole questline in the first place.
But the parent, the PC, just doesn't feel like the champion, the dark knight, or even the bimbo, all of which were the clever, persistent, and empathetic champion that managed to talk down the Goddess of Arcane Secrets. Such a character wouldn't be thinking so selfishly or short-sightedly with regards to Kinu's protection. Even within the amount of limited agency this questline forces on the player, the PC still manages to worsen the bond by, well, acting like an idiot. Not an ignorant gaijin, an idiot. I just don't believe that the core of this questline's theme would be challenged if the player had even the mere illusion of choice with regards to how they respond to Kinu. As it stands, the one line of dialogue we're bottlenecked into doesn't feel like they put their best foot forward in providing the support that Hime Kinu assuredly needs. She might have the "support" of the entire colony, but given Hime Kinu's character I have to wonder how long it's been since she actually cried in front of someone. Nakano, maybe? If not, then CoC2's champ would be well suited for the supportive pillar, but alas, Nimrod has taken his place. Edit2: Nimrod took his place because the player needed to know how it felt to be a helpless parent. And therein lies the core of the general distaste for Kinuquest: the robbery of a character for the sake of telling a specific story. But is Nimrod really necessary for the story to be told? You can take my opinion as you will, but I don't think it is.
With all that out of the way, let it be known that regardless of how most people feel about how the story is turning out, and how we all heavily dogpiled on the subject, each and every one of us still appreciates your story. I get the impression that this story comes from a very personal place in your heart, and that makes it anything but soulless. All of our complaints could mean nothing, and that's fine. Thank you for writing such a rich setting and characters.
EDIT: it's worth pointing out that I specified Hime Kinu because I haven't played Inari's version of the latest story yet, and I also haven't spoken to the other kitsune NPCs about the latest KinuQuest developments, so I can't speak with regards to her yet. I needed a break to process my emotions before talking with anyone in the den.
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As I've mentioned before, Kinu's story is very heavily influenced by the Princess Maker line of games, especially Princess Maker 5. In it, assassins from the five worlds' rebellion forces arrive over the eight years of your daughter growing up, and as her father or mother you have to decide what to do. You can fight them off yourself as the retired hero who saved the worlds, let Cube your butler do it, or have your daughter step up and put herself into life-threatening danger.
To be sure, as a parent you provide her with the foundation in her youth to be able to face these challenges which present a very real danger to her, whether you send her to karate, kendo, magic, eloquence, or just use music to drain their will to fight (which for reasons, doesn't work against the final boss). You can also forgo all of these and have you or Cube fight them off for an instant win. And sure, you you can get a reasonable and even respectable ending that way.
But if you don't let her put herself into actual danger, if you don't send her adventuring, if you don't let her repeatedly confront her stalker Gateau without you around to back her up, if you don't let her deal with the assassins who come for her herself -- you can never get the True Queen ending. You've given her the foundation in her youth and she's standing on your shoulders, but ultimately she has to do these things herself, put herself in actual danger and realise her own destiny if she's to uncap her highest potential.
And like you said, it comes from a very special place in my heart.
I'm not deaf to your concerns and will consider them, even if I don't agree with the interpretations of some events, and that's fine.
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In light of all this serious character talk, I'll bring up some not so serious complaints.
Like why can't we pick up our fucking camps? I hate always having to buy them just to hang out with our Snake lady friend.
Also, does dumping all the wood and metal I collect at the den even do anything?
I wish there was a in game way to change background. It could reset the attributes in consideration of the stat boost your background gives.
Why is the thief class called "thief"? All their abilities seem more combative. Some of them are straight up murderous like [Mark for Death] or [Assassinate]. It should be called "Assassin" instead.
Like why can't we pick up our fucking camps? I hate always having to buy them just to hang out with our Snake lady friend.
Also, does dumping all the wood and metal I collect at the den even do anything?
I wish there was a in game way to change background. It could reset the attributes in consideration of the stat boost your background gives.
Why is the thief class called "thief"? All their abilities seem more combative. Some of them are straight up murderous like [Mark for Death] or [Assassinate]. It should be called "Assassin" instead.
I assume that the camping supplies have some non recoverable components (wood used when making a camp) they are cheap so eh, whatever as for the third point character's background cannot be changed because it makes no sense unless you have access to some mumbo jumbo space time magic , class names are not all that important since you can mix up the powers at will anyway.
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