Your gripes with CoC II

[Kesil]

It has been like that not for almost two years. It has been like that since 2011 at the very least (as I am unsure how it was back when Nimin was still alive):

"Want it? Write it. Be the change you want to see."​

If you wrote anything and it was rejected for whichever reason, at least you'd know what (not) to do for another project. Alternatively, and as Catmint said, you could always commission a writer. I have a feel no one would cry bloody murder about stepping on anyone's toes if any minor males got scenes of their own. I'm thinking about the avanai rider, the male jotunn, Jin-Jin, Elaril, Dale...

 

[Aurastrasza]

I apologise if this is considered off topic for this thread. But may I ask what on earth the acronym MLM means?

I have seen it used multiple times since the changes to Berwyn happened. I have never been good with working out acronyms. Is is just a fancy way of saying M/M?

For those who might make the suggestion. I did try looking it up on ‘The Internets’, and all I got was some company names and Multi-Level Marketing. And I doubt either of those would apply here.

 

[Necros]

I apologise if this is considered off topic for this thread. But may I ask what on earth the acronym MLM means?

I have seen it used multiple times since the changes to Berwyn happened. I have never been good with working out acronyms. Is is just a fancy way of saying M/M?

For those who might make the suggestion. I did try looking it up on ‘The Internets’, and all I got was some company names and Multi-Level Marketing. And I doubt either of those would apply here.

Men loving Men or something along those lines.

 

[Aurastrasza]

Men loving Men or something along those lines.

Ah, so it was just a fancy M/M then. Alright. That seems unnecessary to me, but it makes sense.

Thank you.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Despite you guys making it clear that I'm not wanted like two years ago, I still hold hope and check up on this game from time to time, to see if I can scavenge anything that appeals to me between the endless deluge of BigTiddyWaifus, Wapanese Catgirls, and futa cock. usually with not much success. The fact that you somehow managed to have EVEN LESS major male characters than before is almost impressive! and to add insult to injury, you didn't just sideline one of the three male companions, you let us staple tits on him as he went, really showing how good of a multitasker you are: shitting on the people who liked him while still sucking the dicks of those who didn't. now that's dedication to the bit. Made even funnier because when I brought up the fact that Garret, one of the few masculine male characters with a good bit of writing invested in them, locked out a massive portion of the people who would actually be interested in him for no fucking reason, you guys were like:



But when it comes to Berry having his identity changed in a way directly opposed to the impetus of his character after his writer has left the team, it's fine! gotta give the exclusive women likers, who might have, for some reason, sat through a male character's quest, TWO toys for every ONE the men likers get/lose, like a spoiled child on somebody else's birthday. Now I don't know or care what went down with Berwyn's writer but rewriting his character to do what you like/ what's popular proves the whole ~artistic intent~ argument was total bullshit.

It's not that I hate male characters having female transformations (although Wynne's really should have been heavier on the corruption aspect) or most of the content being female-centric, but can you not see how this feels like a massive FU?

The people here seem less rude and condescending than they were to me about complaints of this type, which might just be because there's too many to dogpile now, in which case: I told you so.

Pretty much the majority of people here complained about Berwyn getting removed from the companion roster. A ton of people hated it, and did perceive it as his fans getting shafted. I also really dislike the change, but, due to how the game is set up, it was necessary.

"that's just the way it is" isn't an argument. I've already been over how there's seemingly no problem with secondary writers changing characters to suit people into women, why can't they do so for people into men? it's less work.

Berwyn is an exception because he was a companion. Companions are required to have constant support, and he had a questline that was left dangling, so the fact that his original writer was gone meant that either some other writer was going to be required to take him up and fully support him, or that he had to be removed from being a companion. I believed that it would be the full support, but it seems to have been the latter. They didn't want to force someone to write two companions, and it seems that nobody who was eligible for having a companion wanted to take him as one, so, he was removed from the companions.

Of course, there is the thing about him getting the option to become female was not really necessary. That, however, came about because he effectively had a different writer. B now is Berwyn's writer, and as such, this is his artistic intent instead. The change absolutely upset Hugs, and I don't like that, but Berwyn is B's now, as a result of him requiring a transfer of ownership due to his formerly being a companion. I dislike the loss of his companion status, and it feels weird that he was given the option to turn female along with that, but he's not proof that there's "no problem with secondary writers changing characters to suit people." He was an unfinished canvas, given to somebody else to work on, and so he became that person's character.

 

[wery12345]

Feel like I should say that hugs literally would have complained about anything they would have done to Berwyn, so it's really not a good point to try and use.

 

[WolframL]

A year and a half and nothing has changed, despite it being an argument people have been making for a long time, now more than ever. I'm bringing it up because it's relevant.

Except that the core writing team has not changed in that span of time (nor will it in the next eighteen months) so the point that was raised the last time you complained about it still holds: The main writers are not interested in catering specifically to M/M content, so they don't write it. Likewise there have been very few community writers interested in catering specifically to that interest, so it doesn't get much compared to the majority of scenes in the game. The staff and community in general prefer female characters to male, hence the ratio being skewed heavily in that favor and the majority of characters are pan so as to appeal to the widest possible audience.

If you want more of that stuff, the door for submissions is and has always been open; it's how stuff that the main staff isn't interested in writing or doesn't have time to write gets into the game in the first place. Case in point: Nobody on the main team was going to write a cuntboy, but Liulfr got into the game because someone in the community stepped up. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.

"that's just the way it is" isn't an argument. I've already been over how there's seemingly no problem with secondary writers changing characters to suit people into women, why can't they do so for people into men? it's less work.

Except that as as Savin himself pointed out to you, it is not nearly as little work as you seem to think. Which is why he suggested that you try and hand-edit just one of Evergreen's scenes to make her a daddydom and see how much work that takes to get something that looks good, even without factoring in what it would need to look like on the coding side, as an illustrative example. I note that you haven't done that either.

Oh, and that same post also does away with your 'That's not an argument!' argument because yes, moral and/or creative offense is a thing when you're trying to write for somebody else's character. Tobs wrote Garret one way, he's not going to add content for him that goes against his vision just because a couple of loud people on the internet complain that their vagina-less Champs can't get doggy-dicked down by him. What precisely did you really expect to change here?

 

[Animalistic]

Kek, now you want me to try my hand at rewriting mommy Evergreen into a daddy evergreen. For I already did something similar for Brint where I rewrote some of Brienne scenes for hypothetical scenario where the armor only went half way.

And no, it was not for mod or anything like that. Just something that I wanted to try out to see if the personality of Brienne could work on someone with Brints build. It was fun and surprising hot.

 

[Catmint]

Ah, so it was just a fancy M/M then. Alright. That seems unnecessary to me, but it makes sense.

Thank you.

Heh. It is mostly used in certain parts of the LGBTQ+ community and doesn't necessarily have a slash meaning to it; it's just a broader term to encompass all types of love, not just sex. I don't know about other people, but I prefer it because it refers to a community of people who love men, instead of just loving sex with men, though I can see how that seems unnecessary when it comes to smut. My autistic brain just thinks it's more appropriate to the conversation at hand.

Also, I am part of the WLW (Women Loving Women) // Sapphic community, so terms like MLM/WLW get thrown around a lot more on that side of the 'net. It's unfortunate that the acronym MLM is associated with covert pyramid schemes, but I digress.

If you want more of that stuff, the door for submissions is and has always been open; it's how stuff that the main staff isn't interested in writing or doesn't have time to write gets into the game in the first place. Case in point: Nobody on the main team was going to write a cuntboy, but Liulfr got into the game because someone in the community stepped up. Be the change you want to see in the world, and all that.

I would love to write niche content for this game if there's enough of an audience for such. I already have several writing projects on the backburner, but SavCo is pretty generous to their content creators I have to say. We'll see.

 

[CitrusWolf]

Kek, now you want me to try my hand at rewriting mommy Evergreen into a daddy evergreen. For I already did something similar for Brint where I rewrote some of Brienne scenes for hypothetical scenario where the armor only went half way.

And no, it was not for mod or anything like that. Just something that I wanted to try out to see if the personality of Brienne could work on someone with Brints build. It was fun and surprising hot.

while I am more subby than dominant, subby eager devoted Brint does sound really appealing

 

[Raishu]

I really respect the dedication to be like "I've come back after two years to still be wrong about something"

I've been playing these games for years, I was here before you and I'll be here after you're gone, dormant beneath the earth, lurking in teh forums, waiting to cause another argument every two years.

...I'm a so-called woman liker...

considered writing 'xlw' to avoid describing every variation of a person attracted to a boob but it sounds like a file extension.

may I ask what on earth the acronym MLM means?

yeah, it's 'men loving men' or 'men who love men'. It's used because not every dude into dudes is ONLY into dudes, y'know dude?

the fact that his original writer was gone meant that either some other writer was going to be required to take him up and fully support him, or that he had to be removed from being a companion.

or he could be left unfinished, removed from the game entirely, or remade into a different character. People would still be upset but they'd probably be more understanding if it was a case of "The writer left him unfinished so we can't use him anymore". Choosing to keep the character but removing a lot of their content and drastically altering their story and behavior to fit a wider audience is what made people mad.

he effectively had a different writer. B now is Berwyn's writer, and as such, this is his artistic intent instead. The change absolutely upset Hugs, and I don't like that, but Berwyn is B's now

the fact that his lead writer can be exchanged against the will of the original writer proves that the characters (or at least this version of them) are considered as not belonging to the original writer but to the game itself, with anything beyond that just being dibs.

The main writers are not interested in catering specifically to M/M content, so they don't write it.

which is why allowing people to create alternate versions of existing characters/scenes would mean they don't have to write M content (straight women exist still)

majority of characters are pan so as to appeal to the widest possible audience.

except when they're not for the people already lacking a lot of content ig.

Oh, and that same post also does away with your 'That's not an argument!' argument because yes, moral and/or creative offense is a thing when you're trying to write for somebody else's character. Tobs wrote Garret one way, he's not going to add content for him that goes against his vision just because a couple of loud people on the internet complain that their vagina-less Champs can't get doggy-dicked down by him. What precisely did you really expect to change here?

ignoring what you're literally quoting me saying isn't an argument either. I'm saying it's hypocritical to claim "moral and/or creative offense" when the same thing was done to Berwyn.

Except that as as Savin himself pointed out to you, it is not nearly as little work as you seem to think. Which is why he suggested that you try and hand-edit just one of Evergreen's scenes to make her a daddydom and see how much work that takes to get something that looks good, even without factoring in what it would need to look like on the coding side, as an illustrative example. I note that you haven't done that either.

I had assumed that wasn't an actual challenge, but more of a "that would take too much time"

I'm guessing you didn't read the edit I made for Garret or you would have found something to complain about but this time it only took like an extra ten minutes, I honestly spent more time writing this. This is pointless anyway since I never said that I wanted EVERY character in the game to have an alternate version, just some of the easier-to-edit ones to make it feel a little less one-sided.

 

[zagzig]

His pudgy belly presses down on your rock-hard middle, and his big, brown-furred moobs sway hypnotically above your face, nipples so close that they threaten to brush your nose. So you do the only thing you can do and lean in, grabbing a dark mound between your pencil-thin lips and sucking.

Sure enough, you're rewarded not just by a lewd moan and a throb that works its way from Oxan's balls to his crown, but also with a squirt of warm, rich milk that spills across your tongue.

Yeah you're right, rewriting Oxana from a woman to a man is seamless and this is totally feasible to do to every scene in the game.

 

[DJ_Arashi_Rora]

View attachment 26555
I've been playing these games for years, I was here before you and I'll be here after you're gone, dormant beneath the earth, lurking in teh forums, waiting to cause another argument every two years.

considered writing 'xlw' to avoid describing every variation of a person attracted to a boob but it sounds like a file extension.

yeah, it's 'men loving men' or 'men who love men'. It's used because not every dude into dudes is ONLY into dudes, y'know dude?

or he could be left unfinished, removed from the game entirely, or remade into a different character. People would still be upset but they'd probably be more understanding if it was a case of "The writer left him unfinished so we can't use him anymore". Choosing to keep the character but removing a lot of their content and drastically altering their story and behavior to fit a wider audience is what made people mad.

the fact that his lead writer can be exchanged against the will of the original writer proves that the characters (or at least this version of them) are considered as not belonging to the original writer but to the game itself, with anything beyond that just being dibs.

which is why allowing people to create alternate versions of existing characters/scenes would mean they don't have to write M content (straight women exist still)

except when they're not for the people already lacking a lot of content ig.

ignoring what you're literally quoting me saying isn't an argument either. I'm saying it's hypocritical to claim "moral and/or creative offense" when the same thing was done to Berwyn.

I had assumed that wasn't an actual challenge, but more of a "that would take too much time"

I'm guessing you didn't read the edit I made for Garret or you would have found something to complain about but this time it only took like an extra ten minutes, I honestly spent more time writing this. This is pointless anyway since I never said that I wanted EVERY character in the game to have an alternate version, just some of the easier-to-edit ones to make it feel a little less one-sided.

I have met few people so arrogant and steadfast in their wrongness. Congratulations.

 

[Tide Hunter]

or he could be left unfinished, removed from the game entirely, or remade into a different character.

Yes, he could but: For unfinished, that's a no-go. That's basically the antithesis of what is intended for the companions. If one of them just stops getting updates or content and altogether doesn't further participate in the game, and the game is not essentially finished, then that's an issue, and they won't accept it sticking around. For removed entirely, they could do that, but it's also something they clearly don't want to do, given that they basically set up some legal safeguards to make explicitly clear to the writers that they forfeit the right to demand that the characters or works be withdrawn, and frankly, I think people would be way more upset if Berwyn was made entirely unaccessible, rather than mutated like this. As for remade into a different character, that's essentially what's happened, they just didn't change the name. I do think that a namechange would probably have been a good choice, but what's happened already pretty much fits the bill for a remaking, aside from the same name.

the fact that his lead writer can be exchanged against the will of the original writer proves that the characters (or at least this version of them) are considered as not belonging to the original writer but to the game itself, with anything beyond that just being dibs.

Well, that is literally what writers have to agree to when making a content submission. As Savin states there, he'd rather not have to do these things against the writer's will, but he has all rights to do so.

 

[WolframL]

or he could be left unfinished, removed from the game entirely, or remade into a different character.

The former would go against the entire purpose of companion characters and just highlight what a content dead-end he was and the last would have been so much more work than just ending his plotline and demoting him that it isn't even funny, especially considering that the stated reason for not continuing to support him is because of how much work that would have been.

they'd probably be more understanding if it was a case of "The writer left him unfinished so we can't use him anymore".

the fact that his lead writer can be exchanged against the will of the original writer proves that the characters (or at least this version of them) are considered as not belonging to the original writer but to the game itself, with anything beyond that just being dibs.

Well, yeah, this is literally part of the document you're required to sign before submitting content, and it's clearly mentioned in the thread that you're expected to read in advance of submitting so this isn't news and shouldn't be a surprise. Hugs left, therefore whatever he wanted became irrelevant because it became Savin's call to make.

And the above was directly prompted by issues during the development of CoC1 where Fenoxo didn't have a condition like that and so lots and lots of characters were left unfinished and couldn't be removed or changed without causing a kerfuffle.

ignoring what you're literally quoting me saying isn't an argument either. I'm saying it's hypocritical to claim "moral and/or creative offense" when the same thing was done to Berwyn.

Again, Berwyn's original author left and he didn't just leave a bunch of bare-bones characters lying around (look at one-note wonders like Elfboi and Frost Pupper) but a companion. Something had to be done.

 

[Raishu]

Yeah you're right, rewriting Oxana from a woman to a man is seamless and this is totally feasible to do to every scene in the game.

I'd encourage you to go copy and paste a scene from, say, Lady Evergreen

you try and hand-edit just one of Evergreen's scenes to make her a daddydom

I never said that I wanted EVERY character in the game to have an alternate version

((considered removing the male lactation but its important to the character and some people are into it. The character already mpregs you so it's not unbelievable))

I didn't suggest Evergreen specifically, they chose someone who they thought would be difficult to edit around and I did it. I also listed why I kept lactation stuff in while implying it would be easy to remove, which it is.

I have met few people so arrogant and steadfast in their wrongness. Congratulations.

again, not an argument. also, It's not arrogance when you are right and I always am.

the game is not essentially finished, then that's an issue, and they won't accept it sticking around.

are they really going to do this every time a quest isn't completed?

For removed entirely, they could do that, but they don't want to

wow

clear to the writers that they forfeit the right to demand that the characters or works be withdrawn

ok, so it is just dibs then.

and frankly, I think people would be way more upset if Berwyn was made entirely unaccessible, rather than mutated like this.

maybe but more so with his writer

As for remade into a different character, that's essentially what's happened, they just didn't change the name. I do think that a namechange would probably have been a good choice, but what's happened already pretty much fits the bill for a remaking, aside from the same name.

if that was what remaking a character was, the term "out of character" would not exist. If a character looks the same, has the same name, and appears in the same story... it's probably the same character.

he'd rather not have to do these things against the writer's will, but he has all rights to do so.

So he did but he won't.

would have been so much more work
is because of how much work that would have been.

more than all the work lost removing a fully coded companion? literally, all you'd have to do is change his name and you could do whatever you wanted. maybe more people would be interested in writing for the character if they didn't have to pretend to follow his character arc before going in their own direction anyway.

therefore whatever he wanted became irrelevant because it became Savin's call to make.

It sounds like it was always Savin's call to make, he was just letting him have it for a while.

Fenoxo didn't have a condition like that and so lots and lots of characters were left unfinished and couldn't be removed or changed without causing a kerfuffle.

maybe it would cause internet drama but he definitely could have removed them, right? maybe he couldn't change them but it's his game, he could take stuff out if he wanted to. Savin, however, CAN allow things to be changed, but he still won't, so what's the point of having the ability to? all the 'condition' has done is let you keep the name of a character you mostly gutted anyway.

 

[Akhter13]

Ah...Ha moving on....
When this game was announced I was really stoked.
When I heard there was a Cumpire in combination with silly mode and ungodly volumes, I was super stoked.
That was like 2018
It's not like she is end game content like becoming a Dragon.
Her House is on the map of the starting village
You talk to her in about 3 quests and a companion recruitment
May even appear in dream event [I have never triggered it]

I am just saying....

Just slink back into the shadows

 

[Animalistic]

Yeah you're right, rewriting Oxana from a woman to a man is seamless and this is totally feasible to do to every scene in the game.

What is wrong with this?

His pudgy belly presses down on your rock-hard middle, and his big, brown-furred moobs sway hypnotically above your face, nipples so close that they threaten to brush your nose. So you do the only thing you can do and lean in, grabbing a dark mound between your pencil-thin lips and sucking.

Sure enough, you're rewarded not just by a lewd moan and a throb that works its way from Oxan's balls to his crown, but also with a squirt of warm, rich milk that spills across your tongue.

Male lactation and playing with man boobs is fine. It is s pretty hot fantasy and this scene plays with that fantasy.

 

[kiby]

They've been pointing out how unfeasible, and a massive pain in the ass, it would be to seamlessly rewrite literally every single bit of text that involves Evergreen. Every room description mentioning her, every bit of dialogue involving her, her every sex scene would be completely different. This is not like if someone wanted to write Ogrish being a woman instead of a man, Evergreen is a huge character, with a large amount of lore importance and content (and more coming in the future).

If someone commissions or writes a big, milky dad, they can go at it all they want. The problem arises from wanting to change an already long established character into that.

 

[Savin]

They've been pointing out how unfeasible, and a massive pain in the ass, it would be to seamlessly rewrite literally every single bit of text that involves Evergreen. Every room description mentioning her, every bit of dialogue involving her, her every sex scene would be completely different. This is not like if someone wanted to write Ogrish being a woman instead of a man, Evergreen is a huge character, with a large amount of lore importance and content (and more coming in the future).

If someone commissions or writes a big, milky dad, they can go at it all they want. The problem arises from wanting to change an already long established character into that.

He's just writing his own personal fanfic; it's not a big deal.

 

[Animalistic]

They've been pointing out how unfeasible, and a massive pain in the ass, it would be to seamlessly rewrite literally every single bit of text that involves Evergreen. Every room description mentioning her, every bit of dialogue involving her, her every sex scene would be completely different. This is not like if someone wanted to write Ogrish being a woman instead of a man, Evergreen is a huge character, with a large amount of lore importance and content (and more coming in the future).

If someone commissions or writes a big, milky dad, they can go at it all they want. The problem arises from wanting to change an already long established character into that.

I feel like we are speaking to much in hypotheticals here. Since no one here has permission to try turn evergreen into a male herm, I feel like speaking of what is feasible and what is not is a mute point.

Still, to humour myself, rewriting her to be a dude does not seem that tall of a task. Since, as a herm, her scenes already take some, shall we say, musceline qualities. And whenever a character mentions her, all you would have to the from current time of writing and all of her content, is to change She to he, her to him, and Lady to Lord or something approximating male equivalent. Since it is not like Komoris or Carmens dialogue go into her looks. Tho, keeping track of parsers like [evergreen.heShe], [evergreen.isFemale] and all that is annoying if you write to many characters lile her.

Honestly, the hardest part is giving evergreen an appropriate male design that encapsulates male fertility and virility. Which is where you would have to take most liberties with. Or simply just make him a chub, but I am not sure how many people are into those outside of gay community.

Edit: Also, male herm could be a deal breaker to some people that are into guys.

 

[WolframL]

When this game was announced I was really stoked.
When I heard there was a Cumpire in combination with silly mode and ungodly volumes, I was super stoked.
That was like 2018

At this point, maybe we should just pool all our brainpower and figure out how to create a time machine powered by horni, which could be used to give Savin the time he needs to get Carmen's content off the back burner.

 

[Raishu]

They've been pointing out how unfeasible, and a massive pain in the ass, it would be to seamlessly rewrite literally every single bit of text that involves Evergreen.

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I didn't suggest Evergreen specifically, they chose someone who they thought would be difficult to edit around and I did it.

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He's just writing his own personal fanfic; it's not a big deal.

you were the one who asked me to???

 

[SmithEK]

As much as I prefer for Mama Evergreen to stay as Mama.. why not just ask Savin since he wrote Evergreen?

 

[Savin]

Ah...Ha moving on....
When this game was announced I was really stoked.
When I heard there was a Cumpire in combination with silly mode and ungodly volumes, I was super stoked.
That was like 2018
It's not like she is end game content like becoming a Dragon.
Her House is on the map of the starting village
You talk to her in about 3 quests and a companion recruitment
May even appear in dream event [I have never triggered it]

I am just saying....

Just slink back into the shadows

I really, really wish I had time to write Carmen but my attention keeps getting pulled elsewhere.

 

[Adan]

I really, really wish I had time to write Carmen but my attention keeps getting pulled elsewhere.

If 'elsewhere' is some futa content then I forgive you

 

[AStrangeGeek]

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View attachment 26573

you were the one who asked me to???

Maybe you need to learn to move on? It's again sounding like maybe this game isn't for you. It's not going to cater to every single player's desires.

 

[Savin]

If 'elsewhere' is some futa content then I forgive you

Mostly Ryn content lately, so yes

 

[loricd]

Very nice. Definitely look forward to the Ryn content. Poor dear has had the nasty cage on for too darn long.

 

[Naas]

The Observer's writing needs a lot more quality control, Their work is rife with gems like this from them trying to use fancy words and having no idea what they mean.

Slowly, Rags grows increasingly melancholy, her expression softening as she examines herself further.

Given the context I highly doubt she's growing depressed or sad from her gift. It'd be more accurate to say she'd be growing increasingly pensive or contemplative. And that's only one example, there are many, many others.