The Nursery

[OnyxDrakkenblade]

But what I do know is that once a zygote forms it's pretty much set in stone and is basically mitosis and differentiation from there on

No, there is a CLEAR shared blood system until birth. Blood, antibodies, nutrients, sooooooo many things are shared between the fetus and mother it's laughable to call them individual beings until such time as the fetus has reached about 2 weeks before delivery.

This boils down to the purely subjective side of the debate,

Agreed that this whole thing is subjective. I have to say, in my judgement, a woman is a mother when they raise a child. NOT when they birth it or supply an egg. Just like a man is not a father by fucking a woman and putting his sperm in her.

 

[Karretch]

No, there is a CLEAR shared blood system until birth. Blood, antibodies, nutrients, sooooooo many things are shared between the fetus and mother it's laughable to call them individual beings until such time as the fetus has reached about 2 weeks before delivery.

Yes, but I meant DNA wise. Blood and nutrients is obvious. Hell, if I remember correctly my aunt had to take medicine because one of my cousins had a different blood Rh factor.

 

[OnyxDrakkenblade]

You know, that really is the most important element of the whole thing, technicalities be damned. I can see how someone might see my claim that the process of pregnancy is an important element of motherhood as an implication that those who do not go through it are "incomplete" mothers, but that's not true at all. I see it as an enhancing factor and an important opportunity for personal growth, but the most motherly thing someone can do for another is to simply love and care for them.

I think that I needed to hear my Harpy Princess say that! I was beginning to wonder if I'd misjudged our common ground In the end it seems as though we simply differ on the semantics of SOME of the details YAY!

 

[OnyxDrakkenblade]

I'm usually better off not attempting to add to discussions. *shrugs*

Stop telling people everything about me. Oh wait, you're talking about you. ummmm


<.<


>.>


___oooO.Oooo____

 

[Cog]

Tying MP et. al.'s involved (and fascinating) discussion back into the original question, I had a thought.


The Honor Harrington series has already been brought up once, and one of the scenes from that series feels applicable. In that universe, external uterine replicators are readily available, though many people (for reasons that sound rather similar to what MP describes) choose to forego them. But one of the characters, who makes use of the replicator for security reasons, ends up spending huge amounts of time and care on the fetus anyway, because their society has discovered that the mother/child relationship can't be replicated. She creates audio books in her own voice to be read to the child while she's away, and has recordings of her heartbeat played continuously.


I feel like most of the arguments on both sides stem from a fear that Steele will turn into an absentee parent, dumping their children in the nursery and otherwise ignoring them.


All that to say, while I understand that only unique pregnancies will get one-on-one mommy/daddy/parent time, are there plans for a more generic "family time?" Such as reading a book to all of the children together, or playing a raucous game of tag, or overseeing homework? Something that isn't one-on-one, but still says "my children are all precious to me?"

 

[Savin]

are there plans for a more generic "family time?" Such as reading a book to all of the children together, or playing a raucous game of tag, or overseeing homework? Something that isn't one-on-one, but still says "my children are all precious to me?"

There are now.

 

[PyrateHyena]

There are now.

YAAAAY! That'd be great! ...no real point in posting though. Except exitement (also about rat babies in artificial wombs, that's pretty impressive and also kind of cute).

 

[Krynh]

What 'unique offspring'? So far, I think the only pregnancy encounter that can only happen once is the Queen of the Deep. All others can be repeated.

Technically the first two kids you have with the Red Myr Deserter are, plus the planned kid with sera

 

[Trogdor]

Planned features for apartment/science lab/milking station?


What will sending crew to work in the nursery do?


Won't 'wait until birth' make long pregnancy times kind of pointless, as there's really no penalty associated with the passage of time aside from a few specific sidequests?


What 'unique offspring'? So far, I think the only pregnancy encounter that can only happen once is the Queen of the Deep. All others can be repeated.


Are offspring going to serve any purpose, or will they basically sit there in the nursery for the whole game like a pokemon in your bank?

Savin answered my questions in discord, and those answers were, "nothing for years", "see above", "yes but there's nothing we can do about it because Fen wants the science lab's functions to be super lategame content", "TBA", and "the latter", with a dessert of "I hate this feature and might possibly be intentionally making it suck because I hate it". >____>

 

[Savin]

with a dessert of "I hate this feature and might possibly be intentionally making it suck because I hate it". >____>

Hey. Go fuck yourself.


If you want me to go back to the nursery being literally nothing but one room with a viewscreen, we can fucking do that.

 

[Trogdor]

Hey. Go fuck yourself.


If you want me to go back to the nursery being literally nothing but one room with a viewscreen, we can fucking do that.

No, I don't, but that's nevertheless the vibe the conversation took. Did you not say you thought it was dumb and that you thought it had no place in the game thematically or mechanically?

 

[Savin]

Did you not say you thought it was dumb and that you thought it had no place in the game thematically or mechanically?

Yeah, I did. And I do. See: the huge discussion on this exact topic you missed in another thread.


That doesn't mean I'm sabotaging the project just out of some kind of bizarre, petty-ass spite. I'm making the nursery the best I can with what I've got to work with.

 

[Trogdor]

Yeah, I did. And I do. See: the huge discussion on this exact topic you missed in another thread.


That doesn't mean I'm sabotaging the project just out of some kind of bizarre, petty-ass spite. I'm making the nursery the best I can with what I've got to work with.

I didn't mean to make you angry, man, I'm sorry. It just seemed like everything we were talking about, you shot it down for one reason or another. In particular, when I was talking about using the nursery/science lab function's to help the Queen of the Deep, and it just seemed like you were saying 'no, the player can't do that because I don't want it to be possible'.

 

[Wsan]

I didn't mean to make you angry, man, I'm sorry. It just seemed like everything we were talking about, you shot it down for one reason or another. In particular, when I was talking about using the nursery/science lab function's to help the Queen of the Deep, and it just seemed like you were saying 'no, the player can't do that because I don't want it to be possible'.

Ever wondered why devs of large game companies don't like to communicate with the public?

 

[Trogdor]

That's harsh, come on.


Most of the Nursery content is not even going to be on Savin. He's building the environment, event frameworks, and Briget, and he's doing some great work on the pregnancies he personally has written up, but any unique offspring content or other child interactions are probably going to be up to the authors of the various pregnancies and kids. Otherwise we'd just lose Savin in an endless sea of pregshit forever and none of his other, much more generally appealing projects will ever get done.


So, for an example of some unique pregnancies/kids: The Seradad project that Nonesuch is doing. Go look at the doc in his project thread.

I never meant to suggest everything was on Savin's shoulders. I was only saying 'these are the answers to the questions I asked Savin'

For an example of what sending crew/NPC's to the Nursery will do: Pump the brakes, this shit's not even out yet. I'll tell you now that I have some plans for it, and I doubt I'm alone, but we need to get a foundation built for the rest of the house goes up.

I'm well aware that nothing's been written yet, but this is a discussion thread and I was merely asking if he had anything in mind. What I got from the Discord discussion was that a lot of the things you'd want to be doing with a science lab are things that apparently Fen doesn't want us to be able to do until around the end of the game, which is years off.

I have also said that, basically verbatim. I am currently working on a major piece of pregnancy content, and the only mob pregnancy that's going to be built with the Nursery as a proper consideration. I fully intend to make it as good as it can possibly be, and will attempt to make people as happy as possible with it.


Pointing out the (glaring) flaws with pregnancy in TiTS doesn't immediately mean we're going to sabotage the content. It means it's going to be hard to write and it's not going to come out exactly like everyone wants. The fact that you even think a content creator (let alone Savin, who does this for a living) would purposefully create low-quality content based on some personal disagreement is really... It's insulting, honestly. Any author with even an ounce of self-respect is going to do their best on any and every project they put their name on, because their work is a direct reflection of themselves.

Well, I already apologized and I certainly didn't mean to insult Savin. And as the conversation happened yesterday and I don't have it in front of me to quote from, I'm not going to try to defend what I said any further.

 

[Krynh]

Ever wondered why devs of large game companies don't like to communicate with the public?

Bioware did too much of that and then got burned out because people (rightly) don't love their games without complaints. 

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

Ever wondered why devs of large game companies don't like to communicate with the public?

To add to Kryhn's point, the unlucky bastard that will have to deal with 'the public' will be bombarded with questions and ideas about things that are entirely outside of their (or their team for that matter) control, because for big dev companies creative freedom is a cruel joke.


The fact that every tiny thing they say, or even any insignificant detail of how they talk about it can be used as fuel for rumors and fear mongering is a less prominent concern IMO. Mostly because rumor-mongering is always present, rarely needs more fuel and is perfectly capable of thriving on the lack of information.

 

[Trogdor]

It's not that what you said was grievously offensive on a personal level (though that's certainly subjective), it's that it was inflammatory and antagonistic. It was the kind of thing that demanded an immediate response from relevant parties, lest other people take it and start running to some really bad places. This is already a ridiculously over-anticipated project (just look at the blog poll), and the last thing it needs is a rumor that the primary writer is making it shitty for no reason other than to ruin preg-lovers' days. 


Just... think about the implications of things more. Please. I'd be appalled if people came to me demanding to know why I was purposefully ruining x project, and I'd imagine Savin would be, too. That's just a terrible situation.

I wasn't being inflammatory or antagonistic and I certainly wasn't trying to be rude or start rumors. The conversation that we had seemed to leave everybody involved, myself included, kinda bummed out, as the response to every question and suggestion seemed to be that the nursery won't or can't do the thing, or that it won't do it for the forseeable future (which, indeed, led me to ask why this was a choice to be voted on as the next thing to be worked on, as opposed to later, when the game was in a more complete state and the player would be able to utilize its planned end-game features. To this, Savin said he didn't make the poll, or something). This, combined with Savin expressing frustration at the feature's inclusion and the tone of some of his news entries, made me legitimately concerned that that's what was going on. Not that he was sabotaging it, but rather that he was doing it just to say he did it and get the team off the hook.

 

[Savin]

As I've said before, the nursery's basic functions (which is: "look at kids")  took all of six hours or so to write. Unlike something like starship combat or SSTDs or whatever, it's not mechanically stressful. It should have been included years ago.


My frustration stems from that, and the fact that I know the nursery will never live up to the hype it's gotten because of this retarded delay. Because, of course, people like you keep piling on "suggestions" or "why can't it do this" or "when can I have this" ad infinitum. No, the nursery will not have every feature you want. It can't do "the thing." It might not do "the other thing" until the end game. Welcome to making a game, or any product. 


That said, I can put something skeletal in the game right now and, le gasp, come back and flesh it out later. That's what I've said, repeatedly, that the current nursery content is: a basic framework so that it actually gets in the damn game. After three fucking years of faffing about. There's no reason not to have the nursery, now that there's starting to be a writer demand for it, right now rather than, say, 2020, just cuz it won't have everything you ever wanted right out of the gate. That kind of "when the game's more complete" mentality is what's kept half the game's systems from getting off the ground. It's bullshit, and it's time to stop pissing around and actually get TiTS's primary systems finished and in place. We're way overdue for that.

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

I'm sorry, but for this:

, with a dessert of "I hate this feature and might possibly be intentionally making it suck because I hate it". >____>

 to come up as a result of poorely wording this sentiment:

Not that he was sabotaging it, but rather that he was doing it just to say he did it and get the team off the hook.

is a big enough screwup to consider the advice to 'start thinking about the implications more' well waranted. I've made a fool of myself on the Internet more than enough times to know that by heart.


 Anyway, I find it strange that when discussing the Nursery, you guys apperently got focused so much on ideas for various non-essential 'bells and whistles' features, when the poll option, being pretty unspecified, clearly (IMO at least) just meant 'a place to interact with PC's babies as a way to expand pregnancy content'. As for why bring this feature now at all if it can't be done with all the bells and whistles: see all the comments, in this thread and in others, of various devs and writers, talking about pregshit in general being among the stuff that had been implied and anticipated from the get go and just got its implementation delayed.


Edit: so slow, even Busyvin beat me to making the last point.

 

[Krynh]

For me just getting to see the offspring and interact with some of them is already a great feature to have.

 

[shadefalcon]

The delay has certainly contributed to the hype of the nursery. I myself am quite hyped about it, but I've (un)luckily been blessed (cursed) with a very realistic (pessimistic) mindset.


I knew from the start that it would be more of a skeleton, which can be built on later. And I find myself happy with just that. This way it's gonna be a lot easier for authors and future authors to write content for it.


However from what I've heard, with Briget and the queen of the deeps young, Nursery 1.0 actually seems like it's gonna have more content than I initially expected. So this thread has actually served to increase my hype

 

[Trogdor]

As I've said before, the nursery's basic functions (which is: "look at kids")  took all of six hours or so to write. Unlike something like starship combat or SSTDs or whatever, it's not mechanically stressful. It should have been included years ago.


My frustration stems from that, and the fact that I know the nursery will never live up to the hype it's gotten because of this retarded delay. Because, of course, people like you keep piling on "suggestions" or "why can't it do this" or "when can I have this" ad infinitum. No, the nursery will not have every feature you want. It can't do "the thing." It might not do "the other thing" until the end game. Welcome to making a game, or any product.

Why did you make a discussion thread, then, if you didn't want people talking about it, asking questions, and making suggestions? Also, one of the things you seemed to be frustrated with is 'why is this here, what is the point?' So people are naturally going to want to come up with ways to justify its existence, and I'm not sure why people coming up with such ideas should frustrate you...

That said, I can put something skeletal in the game right now and, le gasp, come back and flesh it out later. That's what I've said, repeatedly, that the current nursery content is: a basic framework so that it actually gets in the damn game. After three fucking years of faffing about. There's no reason not to have the nursery, now that there's starting to be a writer demand for it, right now rather than, say, 2020, just cuz it won't have everything you ever wanted right out of the gate. That kind of "when the game's more complete" mentality is what's kept half the game's systems from getting off the ground. It's bullshit, and it's time to stop pissing around and actually get TiTS's primary systems finished and in place. We're way overdue for that.

Okay, fine, but you didn't just announce the nursery as a status board to keep track of your kids with. You announced a bunch of other stuff with it, and not only that, said that this stuff was IMMEDIATELY UPCOMING. That kind of gives the impression that this stuff is further along than the drawing board. So then when we ask you about it, and you tell us that it all basically does nothing and that you aren't even sure what you want it to do and when, it kinda sounds half-arsed, which was my concern.


Not to mention the letdown from learning that this stuff is not, in fact, "immediately upcoming" in the sense of being a functional part of the game.

Discuss shit / ask questions related to the (currently immediately upcoming) Tavros Station nursery here.


INTENDED FEATURES

• A new deck on Tavros Station, complete with a player appartment, a bio-science lab, and a milking station.
  
• A gynoid head of the Nursery, who acts as wetnurse/teacher/surrogate mother to your spawn while you're away.
  
• Semi-detailed breakdown of all your offspring via computers.
  
• Ability to send certain crew / hirelings to the Nursery to work, and to upgrade existing functions
  
• Ability to Wait Until Birth while pregnant.
  
• Special interactions with unique offspring. Generic offspring (like Raskvel, Sydians, etc.) will not have any special interactions.
  

 

[Trogdor]

I'm sorry, but for this:

"intentionally making it suck because I hate it"

 to come up as a result of poorely wording this sentiment:


is a big enough screwup to consider the advice to start thinking about the implications more well waranted. I've made fool of myself on the Internet more than enough times to know that by heart.

In my defense, "intentionally" doesn't necessarily mean "maliciously". But you're right, I banged out that post haphazardly, not considering that Savin would take offense because I didn't intend any.

 

[Nonesuch]

Why did you make a discussion thread, then, if you didn't want people talking about it, asking questions, and making suggestions?

He did it because I asked him to. Because my thread was getting flooded with speculation about it. I think Savin would soon as not discuss it with the public at all and downplay its importance, and thereby offset the hype which has built around it. He's in the position of having to answer lots of questions and take brickbats over a project he really isn't interested in, but has taken on out of a sense of responsibility. It must be said that why we are where we are vis a vis the Nursery has nothing to do with him.


From a more general perspective, this is why people employ PR, and why PR people tend to fudge and stick to a single line. At the end of a working day people often give terse responses to repetitive questions; sometimes two people working on the same project give contradictory answers. The fan carries away a bad impression, and before long the words "it seemed like he was intentionally making it suck because he doesn't like it" have taken on a black life of their own.

 

[Savin]

Why did you make a discussion thread, then, if you didn't want people talking about it, asking questions, and making suggestions? Also, one of the things you seemed to be frustrated with is 'why is this here, what is the point?' So people are naturally going to want to come up with ways to justify its existence, and I'm not sure why people coming up with such ideas should frustrate you...

Getting asked questions is fine.


Fielding questions and then having you whine endlessly when you don't like the answers is another.


And re: those bullet points: those features are all going to be in the initial release. Except the upgrading part, cuz none of the upgrades themselves are written yet; the framework for the upgrade points (eg. lab, modular chambers for special offspring, etc.) will be, however. I don't know where you got the idea otherwise, other than wild and baseless speculation. In fact, I'll go a step further and say that all those bullet points were already finished before we even started this discussion. The deck is written and laid out. The nursedroid has basic interactions written. The breakdown of offpsring has the player-facing content written; Geddy needs to deal with the code side I guess. There's places where you can send Yammi and Reaha, though Reaha's content isn't written yet, since Geddy's writing the milker and I need that done first. Wait until birth is done. Special interactions with the Water Princesses have been written -- I'd like to do more, but they're there.

 

[EmperorG]

So moving things along from the previous discussion:


Will it be possible for writers to add onto the Nursery's physical structure? What I mean is, not just add more kids, but more of those would be lab upgrades. That way we don't need to wait years, or is Fen's edict extended to everyone even non-staff?


Personally I'd just be happy with a damn room that says what kids I've had, anything more is just icing on the cake.

 

[Savin]

So moving things along from the previous discussion:


Will it be possible for writers to add onto the Nursery's physical structure? What I mean is, not just add more kids, but more of those would be lab upgrades.

Depends on what it is. Specific content pitches are good.

 

[Noob Salad]

Icing on the cake.

Birthday party when?

 

[Magic Ted]

Chin scritch.


Should...


Should I contemplate writing big sister Aurora to hang out with the kids. . . I don't think the original plan I had for her as far as expansionism goes is going to happen...