Except it isn't and they glass the planet at the slighest sign of a nuke going off...
Myrellion Content Discussion (GENERAL)
- Thread starter Savin
- Start date
Except that it IS, if you actually care to read the scene in which the glassing happens:
I have failed...Well, now you have been forewarned that you will never be four-armed.
(sorry, I couldn't resist that joke...)
One thing people seem to be overlooking is that, talk of resolution aside, the war is over. Once both sides have nukes, war is off the table. Get used to the status quo, with Gildenmere and Kressia as East and West Berlin for the next few decades. No matter their military superiority, the Reds cannot finish the conquest because attempting it means the nukes fly as the Golds see attack on their capital as the opening act of their own genocide. The Golds obviously won't be pushing any new offensives either. No further action needed, hot war is over and cold war has begun. There's nowhere else to take it.
Over time we can expect the Reds to cede back some territory, not out of altruism, but due to the fact that long term occupation is expensive and the longer it goes the more political opposition it garners at home. They will, probably sooner than later, pull back from some of the most farflung cities to consolidate their supply and command chains and strengthen their position in the cities they can more easily hold. Once it sinks in that they will never finish their offensive and never get to fully annex those territories the decision to pull back and consolidate will come relatively swiftly and be initiated by commanders concerned with logistics and strategic readiness. A spread out force is a bad thing, after all, and that issue will be ripe for correction. In the longer term, the pressure to cut budgets and save resources will cause more cities to be placed on the list of candidates for handover and some of them will get the vote to greenlight the move. In this way, the Golds will eventually get some of their territory back but by no means all. This kind of process is called "unilateral withdrawal", and it happens when an occupying power has captured more enemy territory and prisoner population than their budget can support either economically or politically. Such a practice will ease some strain on the Reds as they can release prisoners back to freed cities and disband camps so that they aren't their problem anymore, and eventually an equilibrium will be reached where the Reds keep a large chunk of the territory easiest to keep control of and most desirable to them while letting the rest go back, and those lines will end up by and large permanent. One can expect Kressia to remain in Red hands indefinitely, as the suggestion of giving up that prize would be political suicide.
In addition, in many Red-controlled cities mixing of populations over the course of years and decades will result in some of them becoming more cosmopolitan, a situation where these cities (especially along borders and places where trade and cultural exchange takes place) will become culturally more orange and these areas will grow to become a form of buffer zone whose citizenry will be more tolerant of one another and against the old animosities. These places will become hotbeds of social change, maybe even progressive upheavals, and become a weight against any new hostilities.
Eventually what will be sussed out in a century or two is a one world nation where red and gold are arrayed like a spectrum with gold on one side bleeding into orange in the middle bleeding into red on the opposite side, both in culture and population. Cultural mixing will render Gildenmere and Kressia orange and reunification will eventually occur with a new cultural and political hub for Golds forming deeper into Gold territory.
That's my analysis, anyhow. Regardless, I say the devs / writers are free to move on and leave the Myr in their state of cold war, because realistically that situation can be expected to be long term with any changes shaking out over years and decades to come. They, and Steele, can visit again if they wish but the next world and the next adventure awaits...
Over time we can expect the Reds to cede back some territory, not out of altruism, but due to the fact that long term occupation is expensive and the longer it goes the more political opposition it garners at home. They will, probably sooner than later, pull back from some of the most farflung cities to consolidate their supply and command chains and strengthen their position in the cities they can more easily hold. Once it sinks in that they will never finish their offensive and never get to fully annex those territories the decision to pull back and consolidate will come relatively swiftly and be initiated by commanders concerned with logistics and strategic readiness. A spread out force is a bad thing, after all, and that issue will be ripe for correction. In the longer term, the pressure to cut budgets and save resources will cause more cities to be placed on the list of candidates for handover and some of them will get the vote to greenlight the move. In this way, the Golds will eventually get some of their territory back but by no means all. This kind of process is called "unilateral withdrawal", and it happens when an occupying power has captured more enemy territory and prisoner population than their budget can support either economically or politically. Such a practice will ease some strain on the Reds as they can release prisoners back to freed cities and disband camps so that they aren't their problem anymore, and eventually an equilibrium will be reached where the Reds keep a large chunk of the territory easiest to keep control of and most desirable to them while letting the rest go back, and those lines will end up by and large permanent. One can expect Kressia to remain in Red hands indefinitely, as the suggestion of giving up that prize would be political suicide.
In addition, in many Red-controlled cities mixing of populations over the course of years and decades will result in some of them becoming more cosmopolitan, a situation where these cities (especially along borders and places where trade and cultural exchange takes place) will become culturally more orange and these areas will grow to become a form of buffer zone whose citizenry will be more tolerant of one another and against the old animosities. These places will become hotbeds of social change, maybe even progressive upheavals, and become a weight against any new hostilities.
Eventually what will be sussed out in a century or two is a one world nation where red and gold are arrayed like a spectrum with gold on one side bleeding into orange in the middle bleeding into red on the opposite side, both in culture and population. Cultural mixing will render Gildenmere and Kressia orange and reunification will eventually occur with a new cultural and political hub for Golds forming deeper into Gold territory.
That's my analysis, anyhow. Regardless, I say the devs / writers are free to move on and leave the Myr in their state of cold war, because realistically that situation can be expected to be long term with any changes shaking out over years and decades to come. They, and Steele, can visit again if they wish but the next world and the next adventure awaits...
Literally read the conversation directly above you.
It's the shakiest logic imaginable to suppose that because mankind hasn't achieved mutual annihilation in the 70 years it's had the capacity for it, it isn't ever going to do it. And that you could directly compare our experience to alien ant farms anyway.
As for the rest of it - that's one way it could play out, sure. I see that as the pro-Gold end, with the PC involved perhaps by brokering some sort of peace treaty, since it plays to their cultural sensibilities. But it's hardly inevitable.
The fact that a single admiral can launch a nuke all by himself is a problem we could look at.
While I get what you're saying, and you are right on some points, I feel like you've missed some details.
1) Kressia is right smack next to Gildenmere. Why would the Reds give up lands elsewhere but not that? Kressia would be utterly surrounded if they did that. So for peace to work that needs to be given up, if only so that no Red forces end up super deep and cut-off in enemy territory.
2) The size of the territories taken. When the war started, the Reds territories were on a different continent from the main Gold one. In fact the Reds had to seize Gold cities on their own continent first then cross over to the Gold continent to continue the war. To put things in perspective, imagine the Reds running North America with New York as a Gold city and Europe as Gold heartland. Kressia would be Lubeck to Gildenmere's Berlin. If the Reds simply annexed the Gold cities on their continent and establish footholds along the Gold continent they would have achieved a massive strategic victory in the war since the Golds would no longer be able to threaten the Red core at all. This would also prevent the Golds from becoming too revanchist and desiring to take the Reds down with them.
3) Reds and Golds living together doesn't create Orange, at least not in numbers significant enough to actually change the demographics of any border cities. From what the Kui-tan Ambassador said, Orange Myr are a really rare form of hybrid among Myr, and even if the Orange Myr pill that Cap'n Steele develops were provided freely barely anyone would take it. Orange Myr are hated by both sides, possibly even more than they hate each other, so no way any cities would achieve a significant Orange population.
Overall I will say it is possible to end this war with minimal damage to either faction, but it would require both sides to be reasonable, which if they were we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. Only Realpolitik could force the Golds and Reds to end this war without killing each other off once and for all.
They don't have a choice. The logic of it is simple, brutal, and inescapable. Further aggression by either side ends in nuclear annihilation of both. Unless they are insanely suicidal, it doesn't matter how much they want to kill each other they can't because it means killing themselves. That's how nuclear deterrent works. That's how Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) works. Any species with a basic survival instinct and the ability to comprehend the consequences will be deterred, and the Myr qualify. If they didn't, the ceasefire would never have happened in the first place and they would have said "fuck it, and fuck you" and launched the missiles anyway. They didn't. Now they're stuck staring at each other in impotent rage while the populace comes to live in horror of the potential annihilation that hangs over their heads daily. I grew up in our own Cold War, I know what it's like and it sucks. You live every day with the fear that today might be your last, and yes it is a possibility. A mistake might happen, someone might do something stupid, a truly insane leader or general might push the damned button consequences be damned. If so, that's it. Game over, everyone dies. We know it and they know it. As Sting once said, "there's no such thing as a winnable war, it's a lie we don't believe anymore".
I'm basing this entirely on realpolitick. Mutually Assured Destruction is about as real as real gets, and it's why I don't believe there will be any more large-scale conflict. Not because they've become enlightened or given up their hate-boner for each other, but because they simply have no choice. The fact that they haven't found a way to live in peace before or to solve their differences in any other way but violence is why there won't be a peace treaty anytime soon, either. The guarantee that nuclear annihilation is the cost of aggression will keep them in check, whether they like it or not and I'm sure they won't like it much at all. The leaders and generals will be glaring lazers at each other wanting so badly to attack, only not doing so because it would be suicide. They don't want peace, and they can't have war, so the status quo will drag on indefinitely. This ceasefire will go on for decades until population changes cause a change of political reality and only then will relations begin to thaw and some sort of official peace process begin in fits and starts. In the meantime they'd better get used to that sword of Damocles over their head, they're stuck with it for many years to come.
An instructive model for how this plays out is North and South Korea. Officially, the war there never ended they just reached a stalemate and what was supposed to be a temporary ceasefire. To date, that ceasefire is going on 60 years now with no signs of it changing. They glare at each other over the buffer zone, rattle their sabers at each other, but nothing ever changes. They don't want peace and they can't have war, so they're stuck. So I expect it to be for the Myr, year after year and decade after decade until the ceasefire has gone on so long it's the only way most of the population has ever known. Only then might it ever change, due to pressure from within. Until then, as I said get used to the new normal we'll be stuck with it for quite a while.
As to the point about Red withdrawal, I base that on realpolitik as well. The initial reshuffling will come because in war it's easier to claim territory than to hold it, and it will be for logistical and strategic reasons that the Reds will consolidate their forces and their lines for the sake of greater long-term sustainability. The longer term view, that more territory will be ceded of the Reds own accord, is also based on issues of logistics both militarily and economically. Occupations are expensive, prisoner camps are expensive, and over time political pressures come from within to cut costs. Over a period of many years, bit by bit cities will come under scrutiny based on a cost / benefit analysis of "how valuable is this territory to us compared to how much it costs us to keep it". Those territories which are judged to be more costly to maintain than they are worth will be given back, a few at a time until it shakes out that the Reds have kept the most valuable and strategically secure territory for themselves and given back everything else to ease the burden of maintaining it. It won't be out of compassion for the Golds, that's for sure. The pressure to do this will come entirely from within the Red side based on the politics of economics and logistics. That's why Kressia won't ever be on the list to give back, because it's such a prize of conquest that nobody will ever seriously suggest giving it back and those who try will find it to be political suicide.
The real life model for this can be seen in the Israeli occupation of Palestine and Ariel Sharon's policy of unilateral withdrawal. This was not done out of consideration for the Palestinians, that's for damned sure, it was motivated by the desire to cut costs both economically and logistically and maximize value for the expenditure. Those areas which were withdrawn from were judged to be more cost to keep than they were worth to have, while the most valuable and strategically important territory was kept. I see much the same thing playing out on the Myr world for much the same reasons.
Finally, when I speak of orange areas I don't mean biologically I meant culturally and politically. Just as we speak of red states and blue states and purple states in terms of our own culture and politics here I mean the same when I speak of some territories on Myr going "orange". That is to say they will have a more mixed population of Reds and Golds leading the culture and politics to become something of a blend between the two, not that they will literally become halfbreeds. These places will become like our swing states aka purple states, a mix of the two sides where attitudes are more moderate and the culture more mixed. Yes, those areas would probably see a greater number of mixed-race individuals in their population as well, but that isn't what I was referring to.
In all, I hope I've clarified my position and make some more sense now that I've explained in more detail.
Darth, you do know that, A Quest to end the conflict will be resolved in one of three ways. Gold, Red, or Peace.
I understand what your saying, but what you say will happen Will. Not. Actually. Happen. The only way it will happen is if you, the player, do absolutely fuck-all and say "Me no likes Ant Plan3t" will this decades long "Cold War" actually happen.
It is not implemented yet, but when it is, you the player can decide to end the cease fire and have your fav side win. Or you can have a peace treaty happen. Its been planned since day 1. There will be no years, no decades, only days to months after Steele lands on Myrellion. We are the focal point of ending the conflict.
I can give credit to your "Idea" of what would happen. But it would only happen if Captain Steele did not exist. Savin already wrote the Red Quest, and Fen has stated he will write the Gold !uest, and maybe the Treaty (Or Savin).
Just calm down man and breathe, and think a bit.
I don't even have to say that your entire argument that MAD would never actually happen relies upon rational actors that palpably don't exist. Read the posts directly above yours. The second it seems a nuke has gone off, the myr do wipe each other out, even though neither are actually affected by the pirate base blowing up. The stone cold fact is that the myr can and will destroy themselves on the slightest of pretexts.
I'm sorry to go off on you about this, but jesus I get so tired of historical argument that rest solely upon 'logic, simple and inescapable'. Humans are not rational, particularly those placed under great stress and living in political bubbles separated from the rest of us. Can you not look at recent events and see for yourself that humans and by proxy their creations do not always do what's in their best interest, and indeed spend a great deal of their time working against it? THAT'S how you wind up with MAD. Please don't kid yourself into believing nuclear winter didn't happen in the 20th century because it was an impossibility. It was averted by one guy on a sub refusing to follow orders.
What Chimes said. Spitballing this kind of thing is fun, as long as you understand it's pointless. The PC will choose between the red light, the gold light, or to throw themselves into the I-don't-care beam. What each will look like shall depend on Savin and Fen's boner for fascism and honey tits respectively, not on a serious political reading of the situation.
I lived a good few of those years myself. I grew up believing that my chances of living long enough to reach adulthood and get laid was next to none. I am well aware how close we were. I'm also aware, as you are, that it didn't happen because if it did we wouldn't be talking about it now. We beat the odds on at least one occasion that we know of, where a false alarm could have led to a full scale nuclear exchange. We may never know how many other such incidents occurred, but what we do know is that nobody deliberately pressed the button and the two sides never went to direct war. Proxy conflicts, yes, direct war no and there hasn't been a world war again either. Nuclear deterrence works. MAD as a deterrent works. Yeah, it means years or decades walking a knife edge under the fear of nuclear annihilation, but it does prevent full scale war. Again, the fact that we're talking about it now proves it.
It's their game, and if they choose to offer a set of paths where the PC plays superhero and guides the course of history on Myrellion then so be it. I simply explained that they don't have to, that they could lead the PC off world to his/hir/her next destination and the status quo would very likely play out like I said. They don't have to do anything to end the war / current situation, it's stable as it stands and can be so for years or decades to come. Yes, there is a possibility that it could all go tits up and the planet could be scorched by nuclear fire into so much radioactive glass, but I'm playing the probabilities here. The most likely scenario, if Steele simply leaves and checks back in some point far down the line, is as I've stated.
My personal preference would be that they do leave it as is, in a cold war, and move on to writing and implementing the next planet. It feels more realistic, for one, and for another it would let us move on to something different and escape this dark chapter in the story. If I could make a recommendation, I would say shelve the resolution for now and fast track the next world. Then, later after some in-game time has passed, allow the player to return and intervene. But make it optional, and give the players and the writers a break from this for a while. This is heavy stuff, after all, and a change of pace is sorely needed.
On another topic, I know this is a bit tropey in the "pair the squares" sort of way, but I'd like an option to acquire a flower for Briha and instruct her to give it to Lys. Much like the Lilliana thing where you set her up with the nurse, it'd be nice to get a bit of hopeful closure for those two. Clearly, they have enough shared experience to build a relationship on and both have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
@Darth_Meow_504
Darth. You are missing the point and are not understanding what we are trying to tell you. MAD is not really valid for the Myr. Given a freaken smidge they BOTH NUKE each other. Its instantaneous when the pirate base blows up. Im gonna give the benefit of the doubt and say you dont know about the annihilation of Myrellion, but you would know if you listened to Nonesuch and read the damn posts above yours.
They will kill each other and not give a damn about themselves if it means they can take out the other.(Stupid I know, but the Myr are anything but sensible)
One thing that bothers me about your whole stance on this is that you seem to have the mentality of "I lived through this so I know how its supposed to work". I know the cold war was a scary time, but that sounds pretty similar to an Argument from Authority, which rubs me in a very bad way. Yes you lived through a traumatic time but do not go talk about this if you have no idea what the situation on Myrellion actually is.
But while thinking about your "Recommendation" all day, I came to a rather interesting conclusion.
Are you ready? Cause this is gonna blow your damn mind. Staple your pants on cause Im gonna knock them off.....
Your Recommendation is technically already in the game. How? Simple: Do nothing. Its that easy. The quests to end the war are NOT Mandatory Quests. They are Optional. If you want your Cold War, do not do the quests. Ill say it again, YOU Captain Steele, are the thing that decides how Myrellion will end up. Not anything else.
For your Arguement to even have ground, We the player need to not exist. I guarantee, your situation would have happened if this wasnt just a game we play.
What you stated is not the most likely scenario, its probably down at the bottom. People will choose sides and go for Red or Gold, or go for neutral and get a peace treaty. I doubt that 60% percent of players are gonna choose to not do anything, they want the loot and sex that comes with the content.
Also the part about them saving Myrellion for later and writing the next planet, is something they are doing right now with Uveto. If you mean the next story planet well tough shit, they want them cold space Puppers. Let them work at their pace, trust me, we ALL want more story content but we trust Fen&Crew to deliver with fantastic content when they finally do get there.
I realize you are new and have not been here day 1 like some others, but you wouldve understood if you would of read my post and the ones above you.
I hope Im not sounding like an ass, but its really annoying when we need to tell someone something thats already been said and repeated. I hope you understand...
Also yes Briha getting a flower would be cool.
Darth. You are missing the point and are not understanding what we are trying to tell you. MAD is not really valid for the Myr. Given a freaken smidge they BOTH NUKE each other. Its instantaneous when the pirate base blows up. Im gonna give the benefit of the doubt and say you dont know about the annihilation of Myrellion, but you would know if you listened to Nonesuch and read the damn posts above yours.
They will kill each other and not give a damn about themselves if it means they can take out the other.(Stupid I know, but the Myr are anything but sensible)
One thing that bothers me about your whole stance on this is that you seem to have the mentality of "I lived through this so I know how its supposed to work". I know the cold war was a scary time, but that sounds pretty similar to an Argument from Authority, which rubs me in a very bad way. Yes you lived through a traumatic time but do not go talk about this if you have no idea what the situation on Myrellion actually is.
But while thinking about your "Recommendation" all day, I came to a rather interesting conclusion.
Are you ready? Cause this is gonna blow your damn mind. Staple your pants on cause Im gonna knock them off.....
Your Recommendation is technically already in the game. How? Simple: Do nothing. Its that easy. The quests to end the war are NOT Mandatory Quests. They are Optional. If you want your Cold War, do not do the quests. Ill say it again, YOU Captain Steele, are the thing that decides how Myrellion will end up. Not anything else.
For your Arguement to even have ground, We the player need to not exist. I guarantee, your situation would have happened if this wasnt just a game we play.
What you stated is not the most likely scenario, its probably down at the bottom. People will choose sides and go for Red or Gold, or go for neutral and get a peace treaty. I doubt that 60% percent of players are gonna choose to not do anything, they want the loot and sex that comes with the content.
Also the part about them saving Myrellion for later and writing the next planet, is something they are doing right now with Uveto. If you mean the next story planet well tough shit, they want them cold space Puppers. Let them work at their pace, trust me, we ALL want more story content but we trust Fen&Crew to deliver with fantastic content when they finally do get there.
I realize you are new and have not been here day 1 like some others, but you wouldve understood if you would of read my post and the ones above you.
I hope Im not sounding like an ass, but its really annoying when we need to tell someone something thats already been said and repeated. I hope you understand...
Also yes Briha getting a flower would be cool.
I totally agree! Those two have MASSIVE potential, both together, and on their own!
I just realized something; unless a mutual peace option is implemented, there is inevitably going to be a flame war between those who picked Gold and those who picked Red. Oh, god, the game will become real life! * inception "bwaaar" * Only, with potentially less sexyness.
2 years ago that was exactly the case. The flame war has happened already but itll start again when the quests get implemented.
Read all the pages in this thread and you can see some of the shit people said back then.
I like Myrellion but BOY is it a shitshow.
If I were the dev team, I'd wait till all three were done, /then/ put them into the game. That's the only way I can think of to guarantee the war doesn't ignite again.
I am aware of the destruction scenario, I think you're forgetting the fact that it happens because the Myr detect a very big boom and thus believe the nukes are flying. Believing they are only minutes from obliteration, they launch their own to take their enemy with them. That's a "false alarm" scenario and it has happened on this planet too in our very own Cold War at least once that we know of. We're only here talking about this because a Soviet missile commander with nerves of steel refused to launch without further confirmation, defying orders. That guy saved every one of us, now and for all time. It still doesn't change the fact that nuclear deterrent prevented any deliberate launches or further world wars or direct war between USA and USSR. We have no reason to believe it would be different for the Myr. You even acknowledge this when you say "absent Captain Steele, your scenario would happen". Thank you for the kind words and the vote of confidence that my analysis is solid.
Beyond that, it is my -personal opinion- that it would be a better storytelling choice to not let Steele have quite that much effect on the situation or if they do at least give it some time. I think the writers and players both could benefit by taking a break from the Myr for a bit, this is heavy stuff for such a lighthearted game and a change of pace would be welcome. Getting the next story planet sooner as a result of shelving the Myr resolution for now would probably benefit everyone as well.
Maybe that's just my own writers instincts talking. When a project starts to feel bogged down, it's often beneficial to wipe the slate clean for a bit, save what you were working on and open a new doc to work on something different. Pick a different planned story arc or different idea and work on that. Banish that writer's fatigue and come back to the other thing later when you've had some time to rest from it and refresh. I know that benefits me in my own writing.
I again reiterate that this is just my personal opinion. It's not my game, it's not my project, it's not my decision. I'm just a player with ideas and suggestions, the developers will do as they please regardless. And whether they take any of my suggestions or not I'll be looking forward to new content as it arrives.
Yes your scenario would almost definitely happen, just in this case it isnt so. We are the super special snowflake that solves everything in the Universe while fucking it into submission.
In my opinion there wasnt much wrong with your assessment of the situation. My slightly negative reaction was just some information that was left out and the way you put thoughts to paper.
In the future, I recommend wording things a bit differently and finding some information out before stating something. Asking questions isnt wrong here, people like answering, its when the stupid questions come about to people get pissy. (Like 4 arms...)
Seriously!!! Shit! Well, maybe someone can contact him and ask to do it themselves...Too bad that their author left the community...
There's no need to contact JimT (their writer). As long as what the new writer makes passes Fen's standards for the content, it can be put in-game. Once a creator puts content in the game, the rights pass to Fenco, and although writers are generally deferred to, if they are no longer active control passes to Fen.
And thank goodness for that, CoC had an issue with a lot of characters becoming dead weights due to their authors either not wanting or not being able to update them.
It's also proven useful for finishing one character in TiTs after their author expired sadly enough.
I don't think the mutual peace option will be the option that has any effect on the flame war. I think the pro-red/gold endings will be the options that will help in that department. The middle ground peace option is more likely to cater to those who don't give a crap either way. People are divided on it, giving them an ending that allows them to support their side will likely remove the need to argue about it online (not completely), assuming the ending is a satisfying one. Ahem ahem.