Let's Talk About Lust Combat

[Eva]

This topic's already taking over a few other threads, so I felt it deserved one of its own. 


In short: Lust Combat in TiTs is underdeveloped. 


Why do I say this? Well, let's look at the system as it stands.


- Of the 50ish player-usable weapons in the game, there are three lust-based weapons, two of which were added fairly recently. (Goovolver, Single-Tailed Bio-Whip,  Slut Ray.)


- Of the 20ish player-usable armor pieces in the game, only three affect Lust resistances. (Atma Armor Mk 1, Ancient Space Suit, Suit of Gray Goo Armor.)


- There's exactly one class ability that interacts directly with lust combat, compared to 20+ for physical combat. (Gas Grenade, one of the Smuggler's level 5 perk options.)


- In other words, there are three Physical Combat focused classes and zero Lust Combat focused classes. 


- Almost every enemy in the game has the same maximum Lust pool, despite the existence of the Inhuman Desire perk for the PC.


"But what about the Tease subsystem?"


The Tease subsystem is terrible.


1: There are no gear tradeoffs, because only the Sexiness stat affects teasing. In many cases, the decision to use or not use something with +Sexiness is a foregone conclusion: for example, the Honeypot Bra is the straight-up best Top Undergarment that currently exists in the game, stat-wise.


2: Tease uses a proficiency subsystem which exists nowhere else in the game. It's awkward and nonintuitive.


3: Tease tactics basically boil down to 'Sense, then spam the appropriate Tease.' I don't have a problem with this for 'deal with X random monster', but when you're facing down Taivra or a similar 'boss monster', it feels lackluster. (Okay, you can combine Teases with defensive buff abilities like Shield Regen, but that's basically it.)


"What about the perks you can get, like Red Venom and Vanae Milk?"


All of them are tied to specific character transformations, and I don't want 'best at teasing' to be gated behind the player taking the Treatment, getting bimbofied, looking like a squid, looking like an ant, etc. If something like that existed in the regular combat system, it would be nerfed. (See the Concussive Shot issue.)


Counter-argument:


It's a porn game, therefore the Tease route should be kept simple so that casual players can spam their way through the game.


Counter-Counter-Argument:


Pretty much all random encounters are trivial in this game, and 'losing' is usually a slap on the wrist. (In fact, many scenes are only available as loss scenes.)


Furthermore, difficult boss fights already exist in TiTs. (Dr Lash, Queen Taivra, Queen of the Deeps, Dane.)


The devs circumvent this problem with bosses by either making them optional (Queen of the Deeps, Dr Lash), providing ways to circumvent them, (Diplomacy with Taivra), or making it so that you simply gain a nice bonus for winning, but can still proceed if you lose. (Dane.) There's no reason for them to stop doing this.


In summary:


1: Lust combat doesn't have enough options.


2: As a result, lust combat is either overpowered or useless in any given fight.


3: Therefore, boss fights where you shoot people are more fun than boss fights where you seduce people.


4: IMO, a smut game should make it at least as fun to seduce your enemies as to shoot them with guns.


5: Therefore, lust combat needs more options.


This is a thread to 1: discuss the current state of the lust combat system, and 2: propose ways that it could be improved or more fully integrated with the rest of the game.

 

[Woider]

On a personal level I never use lust-combat, but your point definately has merit. There are too few options for players wanting to go down this route at present.

 

[Eva]

Thoughts about Lust Weapons:


Part of the problem with Lust Weapons as they stand is that they replace your default attack. If you equip the Goovolver and the Bio-Whip, then go up against a Lust-Immune enemy, you're just screwed. Nothing can be done about your situation short of running - and that option might not be available to you if it's a boss fight. 


Furthermore, this limits Lust Weapons' flavor to things that might be actually believable as something that you'd carry for personal defense. 


One way that this might be remedied is to grant an additional item slot for a "Tease Prop", and then access its 'attack' through the Tease menu. This opens up the 'Tease Weapon' flavor to all sorts of things, rather than only objects that you can plausibly hit somebody with: 'Nipple Tassels' is suddenly a viable Lust Weapon. 

 

[NEET-Hime]

red myr venom perk needs to be increased, it only does 1-2 lust damage its useless. Red Myr venom is supposed to be this highly addictive lust based stuff, but does almost nothing to aid in combat. I'm not talking about a massive increase just 5-10 will be better. such a small perk, Considering the +4 myr you need to get it. also you think some addiction immunity would also be granted.

 

[Woider]

red myr venom perk needs to be increased, it only does 1-2 lust damage its useless. Red Myr venom is supposed to be this highly addictive lust based stuff, but does almost nothing to aid in combat. I'm not talking about a massive increase just 5-10 will be better. such a small perk, Considering the +4 myr you need to get it. also you think some addiction immunity would also be granted.

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I believe the reasoning behind the anemic bonus is that the devs don't want to put incentives on transformatives. With the notable exception of bimbofication. Any flavour of the transformatives are purely cosmetic or out-of-combat bonuses, for the most part, and I'd honestly prefer it being kept this way.

 

[Enigmatic D]

I find myself only using teases against the infected myr since if you can get the myr to skip their turn to try and calm down. More often than not, I've leveled up my tease proficiency on the first two planets kinda hoping for a different scene to play out or be unlocked due to getting the enemy horny.

 

[Eva]

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I believe the reasoning behind the anemic bonus is that the devs don't want to put incentives on transformatives. With the notable exception of bimbofication. Any flavour of the transformatives are purely cosmetic or out-of-combat bonuses, for the most part, and I'd honestly prefer it being kept this way.

Bimboification and the Treatment get more significant bonuses because they're irreversible, IIRC. I'm not sure if I agree with that design philosophy, but I understand the reasoning - it makes it feel like those permanent tranformations matter, and you can't just flip-flop into and out of the necessary TF in order to exploit the mechanical bonuses.

 

[Woider]

Bimboification and the Treatment get more significant bonuses because they're irreversible, IIRC. I'm not sure if I agree with that design philosophy, but I understand the reasoning - it makes it feel like those permanent tranformations matter, and you can't just flip-flop into and out of the necessary TF in order to exploit the mechanical bonuses.

I never go for the bimbofication stuff, nor the Treatment, myself. And I generally am of the opinion that Transformatives should only influence your character's appearance, not their effectiveness. However, these special cases have both positives and negatives (Though I wish they put a cap on intelligence, to fit the idea of an airhead or brute)

 

[Couch]

red myr venom perk needs to be increased, it only does 1-2 lust damage its useless. Red Myr venom is supposed to be this highly addictive lust based stuff, but does almost nothing to aid in combat.

Frankly I'm disappointed that it adds a passive perk at all, and I don't say that because of my well-recorded distaste for red myr venom.  That you are just automatically better by having venom than you would be without it is the same sort of bad game design as CoC's kitsunes.  Having the venom as a bite attack alternative to tease attacking, like with vanae milk, would be much more appropriate.


I have similar feelings regarding lust weapons.  While a Tease Prop slot could work, and I think is worth considering, an alternative would be for weapons to always do physical damage, but potentially provide a lust damage special attack while equipped.

 

[Blessed]

Frankly I'm disappointed that it adds a passive perk at all, and I don't say that because of my well-recorded distaste for red myr venom.  That you are just automatically better by having venom than you would be without it is the same sort of bad game design as CoC's kitsunes.  Having the venom as a bite attack alternative to tease attacking, like with vanae milk, would be much more appropriate.


I have similar feelings regarding lust weapons.  While a Tease Prop slot could work, and I think is worth considering, an alternative would be for weapons to always do physical damage, but potentially provide a lust damage special attack while equipped.

Having said bite attack drain some energy (like 30 because it's suppose to be a hardcore lust agent) and basically give a +10 lust tick would probably be right up the lore and combat engine mechanics. Basically Myr Bite - 30 energy - 5 turns - 10 lust per tick (Lowered by resistance.)


Also I tend to treat lust combat as EZ mode. I kid you not you can beat any "Boss" with your goo slime girl armor dancing and yourself just spamming tease. Found Tech specialist to be best because you just regen shield for a turn and then lol spam.I'd like bosses to have stronger resistances to lust for sure.

 

[Couch]

Having said bite attack drain some energy (like 30 because it's suppose to be a hardcore lust agent) and basically give a +10 lust tick would probably be right up the lore and combat engine mechanics. Basically Myr Bite - 30 energy - 5 turns - 10 lust per tick (Lowered by resistance.)

I like that a lot, actually.  Gives venom the punch it deserves and gives it a cost so you have to think about using it, which makes it more interesting for people who want it while making it skippable for people who don't.

 

[NEET-Hime]

Frankly I'm disappointed that it adds a passive perk at all, and I don't say that because of my well-recorded distaste for red myr venom.  That you are just automatically better by having venom than you would be without it is the same sort of bad game design as CoC's kitsunes.  Having the venom as a bite attack alternative to tease attacking, like with vanae milk, would be much more appropriate.


I have similar feelings regarding lust weapons.  While a Tease Prop slot could work, and I think is worth considering, an alternative would be for weapons to always do physical damage, but potentially provide a lust damage special attack while equipped.

A bite or a spit seems like a way better choice,..I agree.

 

[shadefalcon]

Part of the problem with Lust Weapons as they stand is that they replace your default attack. If you equip the Goovolver and the Bio-Whip, then go up against a Lust-Immune enemy, you're just screwed. Nothing can be done about your situation short of running - and that option might not be available to you if it's a boss fight. 

Well it´s still possible to change your weapon, but you do lose one turn doing so. Unless you have that one smuggler perk. But I do like the tease prop idea.


When it comes to the myr venom: Using one turn + energy to spread saliva on your weapon might be an option. But you´ll look like one of them crazy villains licking their swords . 


The bite attack though sounds like a cool option.


An idea for more interesting tease combat would be to get a trainer that can teach you a teasing skill or two. An exotic dancer for example. Imagine mesmerizing your opponent with your (belly?) dancing inflicting tease damage, and a chance to stun them. But for this to work we would probably have to nerf teasing a bit. 

 

[Enigmatic D]

Well it´s still possible to change your weapon, but you do lose one turn doing so. Unless you have that one smuggler perk. But I do like the tease prop idea.


When it comes to the myr venom: Using one turn + energy to spread saliva on your weapon might be an option. But you´ll look like one of them crazy villains licking their swords . 


The bite attack though sounds like a cool option.


An idea for more interesting tease combat would be to get a trainer that can teach you a teasing skill or two. An exotic dancer for example. Imagine mesmerizing your opponent with your (belly?) dancing inflicting tease damage, and a chance to stun them. But for this to work we would probably have to nerf teasing a bit. 

Teasing via dancing is a thing with an NPC by the name of Fazian that'll appear on Myrellion. I think Nonesuch has a doc on it.

 

[shadefalcon]

Teasing via dancing is a thing with an NPC by the name of Fazian that'll appear on Myrellion. I think Nonesuch has a doc on it.

Just checked him out. I love the idea for the dancing mechanic. And he would give my male Steele some needed tease power up. It´s a shame he won´t train girls, but I guess I´ll just have to be patient and hope for a female trainer. I mean if the system is implemented it´ll be easier for others to create another dancing teacher.


My dream of a female belly dancer Steele (recently attained) will not end here, I´ll keep on hoping.


PS. Thanks for informing me about this character.

 

[Fully Automated]

Just checked him out. I love the idea for the dancing mechanic. And he would give my male Steele some needed tease power up. It´s a shame he won´t train girls, but I guess I´ll just have to be patient and hope for a female trainer.

You could just set gender to male via the toggle in appearance scene, get the training, then switch back. The dance moves, best I can recall, shouldn't sound too weird on a woman.

 

[shadefalcon]

You could just set gender to male via the toggle in appearance scene, get the training, then switch back. The dance moves, best I can recall, shouldn't sound too weird on a woman.

Also an option. But I think I´ll wait, at least for a while.

 

[EmperorG]

red myr venom perk needs to be increased, it only does 1-2 lust damage its useless. Red Myr venom is supposed to be this highly addictive lust based stuff, but does almost nothing to aid in combat. I'm not talking about a massive increase just 5-10 will be better. such a small perk, Considering the +4 myr you need to get it. also you think some addiction immunity would also be granted.

Red Myr venom perk probably doesn't give you immunity to addiction because Red Myr aren't immune to venom either, you only get immunity to your own venom and everyone else's will still affect you (until you've spent enough time with that specific venom to develop tolerance to it, but that's only for one specific myr's venom).

 

[Fully Automated]

Red Myr venom perk probably doesn't give you immunity to addiction because Red Myr aren't immune to venom either, you only get immunity to your own venom and everyone else's will still affect you (until you've spent enough time with that specific venom to develop tolerance to it, but that's only for one specific myr's venom).

According to Lieve, you don't build a tolerance for myr venom, but instead become more susceptible with each dose.


Also, while getting the perk requires a decent Myr score, keeping it doesn't (and even if it did, having the perk alone gets you high enough).

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

The Curse of Savin strikes again! Looks like his ant-people are just as effective at derailing threads as his puppysluts.


Back to the topic:

Thoughts about Lust Weapons:


Part of the problem with Lust Weapons as they stand is that they replace your default attack. If you equip the Goovolver and the Bio-Whip, then go up against a Lust-Immune enemy, you're just screwed. Nothing can be done about your situation short of running - and that option might not be available to you if it's a boss fight. 


Furthermore, this limits Lust Weapons' flavor to things that might be actually believable as something that you'd carry for personal defense. 


One way that this might be remedied is to grant an additional item slot for a "Tease Prop", and then access its 'attack' through the Tease menu. This opens up the 'Tease Weapon' flavor to all sorts of things, rather than only objects that you can plausibly hit somebody with: 'Nipple Tassels' is suddenly a viable Lust Weapon. 

I don't see why anyone who brought only drug laced weapons to a fight with a bunch of robots should be in a better position than a person who brought only lasers to a fight with a Mirrored foe.


Ideally, we can have both more balanced lust weapons that will utilize your normal combat prowess/moves and Tease Props that will expand your Tease options and add flavor to the process.


As for the Tease system as a whole:

• I agree with people talking about separate Tease proficiencies being grindy, awkward, unnecessary, etc. IMO there should be one tease proficiency stat.
  
• However I do like the ideas of Sense mechanic; of separate Tease options; of foes having different preferences, especially when those are randomly generated.
  
• I see how Sexiness can seem underwhelming, but with TiTS the devs has chosen to limit the number of stats even for normal combat compared to CoC, so I doubt they will be willing to add more.
  
• I don't see a lot of possibilities for making a non-linear progression of purely Sexiness related undergarments. However adding more undergarments that would grant other bonuses is a decent alternative and will likely happen in the future.
  

 

[Nonesuch]

Lot of good discussion here. I'm generally not really arsed about nuts n bolts issues like this, but having tried a Lust build recently it is quite obviously very thin in comparison to now-reasonably-involved business of shooting and/or hitting shit. The fact that some enemies are completely immune to lust means there's a problem with weaponry that simply doesn't exist for physical attackers. I further agree that TFs should not create special attacks as they did in CoC; that was rightly done away with in terms of physical attacks, so how have they crept back in on the lust side? The whole thing needs to be re-thought.


As far as Fazian is concerned, I wrote him specifically for masculine characters as a counter-balance to Lieve. If that sub-system gets in I've no doubt someone will come along to offer dance moves to the effeminate as well.

 

[Savin]

So, a couple of notes from my end:

• I agree that the Tease Proficiency system is dumb and super grindy. I'd like to see it done away with.
  
• While I'm note hugely fond of the "manually select a bodypart to tease with" system, I think that menu gives us a lot of room to work with. If you consider worn equipment/Talents to be the customization for physical combat (not TF does or should give physical combat bonuses, IIRC), TFs could very well be the lust-system equivalent there... so long as they're balanced against normal body part attacks. For example, R.-Myr Venom bite should do the same damage as a tease attack, but might do it as Lust (Drug) rather than Lust (Tease) damage, potentially bypassing a resistance on some enemies, while hitting heavier resistance on others. Same with Vanae Milk. TFs could be used to give more options.
  
• The same could go for a "Lust Prop" or some such, though that seems more like something that ought to go in the Accessory slot. eg. a Techie's holoporn-spewing drone or a whip. Fuck, could put all lust weapons as Accessories (though there's not a huge need to; remember you can swap weapons in combat). That slot doesn't do a whole lot right now other than drone replacements and cool dusters. Either way, lust props could be accessed via the Tease menu rather than taking up the shoot/attack slots.
  
• Stats. It's definitely weird how Physical combat brings in every mainline stat either as a defense or offense (or both for Physique). I'm not sure why Willpower doesn't provide some sort of (small) Lust defense, or why Libido doesn't factor in at all really (Libido doesn't really do a whole lot at all, afaik). I could easily see a revised Lust Combat system using Libido/Reflexes as offensive stats, Willpower as a defensive one.
  

A big part of why Lust Combat is kinda lame right now IMO is that there's both a pretty steady 100 pt. cap on Lust (versus enemies having hugely-scaling Health), and resistances are fairly static (meaning Lust Weapons just fucking wreck people, and Tease attacks can't scale). This could probably be resolved by either having the Lust cap rise with level, along with scaling resistances, but I sort of doubt that's in the cards.

As far as Fazian is concerned, I wrote him specifically for masculine characters as a counter-balance to Lieve.

Really? That seems kind of odd considering Lieve isn't a trainer of any kind. Don't think she even gives you an item, aside from a single Honey Wine bottle. I'd understand gating his sex scenes to masculines, but gating an entire sub-system behind him like that definitely struck me as odd. 

 

[Nonesuch]

Really? That seems kind of odd considering Lieve isn't a trainer of any kind. Don't think she even gives you an item, aside from a single Honey Wine bottle. I'd understand gating his sex scenes to masculines, but gating an entire sub-system behind him like that definitely struck me as odd. 

Counterpoint: Unless you fancy becoming an ant or a complete moron, you're locked out of a lot of stuff if you want to try a lust build as a masculine character. That is exactly why I say gating powerful special attacks behind transformations is bullshit.

 

[Couch]

So, a couple of notes from my end:

I would make it Libido or Intelligence.  Reflexes is overloaded with important functions, as usual for most game systems, while Intelligence is highly underused and Libido is a punitive stat past around 30-40.


I'm down with TFs granting alternatives to teasing as long as they match it instead of being strictly superior.  I just don't like passive perks from TFs, which myr venom is and kitsune spellcaster bonuses were in CoC.  At the same time, make sure TFing isn't the only way to get new options.


As for Accessories...honestly, were I redesigning the equipment layout, I'd have Drone be its own slot, with other equipment being able to grant a Drone Controller tag that unlocks it for non-techs and gives techs a bonus from the improved fine control.

 

[Lashcharge]

I would make it Libido or Intelligence.  Reflexes is overloaded with important functions, as usual for most game systems, while Intelligence is highly underused and Libido is a punitive stat past around 30-40.


I'm down with TFs granting alternatives to teasing as long as they match it instead of being strictly superior.  I just don't like passive perks from TFs, which myr venom is and kitsune spellcaster bonuses were in CoC.  At the same time, make sure TFing isn't the only way to get new options.


As for Accessories...honestly, were I redesigning the equipment layout, I'd have Drone be its own slot, with other equipment being able to grant a Drone Controller tag that unlocks it for non-techs and gives techs a bonus from the improved fine control.

I think cosmetic should definitely have a significant role in teasing, more than just different texts. I think a raskvel female would prefer someone that looked more similar to a male raskvel, rather than someone that looked like a Vanae-panda-horsetaur with twelve boobs(unless it had a exoticness preference/fetish). This becomes even more complex if we consider sexuality. The current teasingpreference system is a bit too simple to take this stuff into account.


That's one thing i've been suggesting for a while too, make a pet slot separate from the accessory slot. There's like three now right? TS Drone, Tam-wolf and Varmint?

 

[Savin]

Don't forget good old cargo bot.


Everyone forgets cargo bot.

 

[Lashcharge]

Don't forget good old cargo bot.


Everyone forgets cargo bot.

How could I forget him!?!


Probably because I was only counting combat pets. Which is wrong on my part.

 

[Blessed]

Don't forget good old cargo bot.


Everyone forgets cargo bot.

Silly Savin everyone knows cargo bots are not real p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ pets :3~ Maybe if they did something cute we'd all love cargo bots.

 

[EmperorG]

Don't forget good old cargo bot.


Everyone forgets cargo bot.

Cargo bot is great once you're strong enough you can fight everyone, but ran out of space for inventory storage on your ship

 

[NEET-Hime]

Don't forget good old cargo bot.


Everyone forgets cargo bot.

Don't worry I chose cargo bot over tamwolf. Can we han so cargo bot and add a synthcock please?