Your gripes with CoC II

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Herod_Hammerstar

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Is it meant to be a mandatory game effect that you have to level up to maximum before you take on any of the big story fights? I just went up against Tahldahs, and he one-shotted my entire party except for the Champion, who lasted long enough to take a second action. Granted we were down a few HP from earlier fights, but still, he's so insanely OP that I don't know how you can possibly beat him, unless you can just one-shot him with Assassinate (I haven't used that often enough to be sure whether it's effective against bosses).
 

WolframL

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Is it meant to be a mandatory game effect that you have to level up to maximum before you take on any of the big story fights?
All the major dungeons and fights are geared towards parties of a particular level, but what that is depends on when in the game the player is expected to encounter them. The Den of Foxes and the Palace of Ice were designed around then-max level parties (5) though the former can be beaten below it as can Sigrune with the right strategy and the Glacial Rift is in the 5-6 range but everything else in the current build is intended to be done at lower levels. The Centaur Village is intended to be doable comfortably below the cap since it's something you can do earlier on a fresh game.

Taldahs has some very obvious weaknesses that can be exploited if you use Sense on him to check.

Iunless you can just one-shot him with Assassinate (I haven't used that often enough to be sure whether it's effective against bosses).
Assassinate isn't some kind of special deathblow skill, it's literally just an attack with a massive damage boost and some secondary effects added on. It works exactly the same on boss-type enemies as it does on everything else.
 
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Herod_Hammerstar

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I did talk to Tahldas; after all the talking I did, he still attacked, with flavor text implying that he would have been unbeatable if I hadn't talked to him, whereas now I had a chance. In other words, I assumed the talking-down was just to turn off his "invulnerable" status, so that a fair fight was possible. Turned out, not so fair. So I get to beat up Lustrider Tollus for the third fucking time, because I can't save during this scenario that has a hard boss, followed by a very hard boss, followed by an apparently invincible superboss, all with no saving and no backing out. *seethe*

All the major dungeons and fights are geared towards parties of a particular level, but what that is depends on when in the game the player is expected to encounter them. The Den of Foxes and the Palace of Ice were designed around then-max level parties (5)

Well my level 5 party has failed twice to make it past the wolfrider elf chick at the entry to Winter City (I assume that's what you mean by the Palace of Ice).

Taldahs has some very obvious weaknesses if you use Sense on him that can be exploited.

Given that he gets three turns for every one turn for each of your characters, it hardly matters what his weakness is, unless all your characters win initiative (which doesn't even seem to be possible). You'd have to kill him on your first or second action, because after that you're dead. Maybe it's not quite as bad as it looks, but the aforementioned "three bosses in a row, no save" is putting a very bad taste in my mouth.
 

WolframL

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I did talk to Tahldas; after all the talking I did, he still attacked, with flavor text implying that he would have been unbeatable if I hadn't talked to him, whereas now I had a chance
If you're fighting at all then it means you've failed, or you're doing it on purpose. There is a trick to talking your way out of it but it's not what you're thinking. Maybe if you knew more about him before starting the fight...

Given that he gets three turns for every one turn for each of your characters, it hardly matters what his weakness is
Actually, no, it really does matter. Devote one fight to using Sense until you get it, then lose. You'll carry over the knowledge to the next time if you need to recheck the stats. That you aren't interested in making use of the tools the game gives you doesn't make a fight unfair.
 
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Herod_Hammerstar

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I picked all the conversational options, other than Do Nothing; eventually I ran them all out and was left with Fight.

And no way am I deliberately losing after having had to slog through three fights. If I have another round where everyone but the Champ dies and Taldas is still at full, I'll Sense before I'm killed, but with my luck it'll probably fail, just as my Flee attempts (not versus bosses obviously) almost always fail. (And it's bad game design to treat "lose the game to gain knowledge, then restart and use that knowledge" as a deliberate tactic. That sort of thing might be impossible to avoid for logistical reasons, but it's certainly inappropriate to encourage it; it'd be like allowing football players to freeze the enemy team and walk the ball across the goal line, because Madden NFL 64 has a glitch where the AI hangs, and you wanted to intentionally reproduce that in other versions of football.)
 

Malpha

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The Taldahs conversation fight is like baby's first debate. It's super easy, even if you don't get extra info about him from Ahmri just by paying attention to what he's saying and how he reacts.

Gytha isn't hard to beat either unless you get unlucky. Resolve her down and stun and beat down her dog. The only time I lose to her is when I'm trying to bait out Overbear for Mirror Stance learning and I get unlucky.
 
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WolframL

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I picked all the conversational options, other than Do Nothing; eventually I ran them all out and was left with Fight.
Doing. It. Wrong. You either didn't pay attention to the conversation (you have to say things in the right order) or you didn't learn enough about Taldahs before the encounter to be able to easily complete the sequence.

it'd be like allowing football players to freeze the enemy team and walk the ball across the goal line, because Madden NFL 64 has a glitch where the AI hangs, and you wanted to intentionally reproduce that in other versions of football.)
That's not the same kind of thing at all, one is an unintended glitch and the other is taking advantage of the fact that you're playing a game and can do things like reload a save and try again if you fail the first time. The Retry option is literally a free save point that takes you back to just before you initiate any fight that results in a game over. Given how much you're bitching about the lack of in-dungeon saving, I'd think you'd appreciate that the game doesn't require you to redo the entire thing over again each time.
 

GraphiteCrow

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I picked all the conversational options, other than Do Nothing; eventually I ran them all out and was left with Fight.

And no way am I deliberately losing after having had to slog through three fights. If I have another round where everyone but the Champ dies and Taldas is still at full, I'll Sense before I'm killed, but with my luck it'll probably fail, just as my Flee attempts (not versus bosses obviously) almost always fail. (And it's bad game design to treat "lose the game to gain knowledge, then restart and use that knowledge" as a deliberate tactic. That sort of thing might be impossible to avoid for logistical reasons, but it's certainly inappropriate to encourage it; it'd be like allowing football players to freeze the enemy team and walk the ball across the goal line, because Madden NFL 64 has a glitch where the AI hangs, and you wanted to intentionally reproduce that in other versions of football.)

The Chieftain will give you a question while you are talking with him, it has 3 answers, 1 of them is correct. Take into account what he says, take into account the reason you are even in the Centaur village in the 1st place. Why is he fighting? why did he take Kasyrra's power. you get the answer and you win without needing to fight him.
 

The Observer

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Given that he gets three turns for every one turn for each of your characters, it hardly matters what his weakness is,

I love it that this is said as if it's some kind of cheaty, overwhelming advantage when it's needed to even out the action and recharge economy between the opposing sides.

Honestly, maybe you just suck at the game.

Story mode is always a thing if people don't want to bother with the game part of the game.

Honestly, maybe you just suck at the game.

For reference, Taldahs is meant to be a middling level 4 encounter if you fight him.

That's about the level Brint stops being an effective carry because of his 75% blight and pheromone weaknesses.
 
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Emerald

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If Taldah's Convo battle was hard to get they ain't surviving COM. Taldahs I only asked about once on Discord and that one little hint was all I needed to get through the whole thing without people telling me the order. It's extremely easy, it's not "pick all the options" it is picking the RIGHT option in the right order and READING between the lines. That's how convo battles work, failing that one is actually kinda laughable.
 

Kamidel

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Hard Convo was Navera, I don't know how many times I failed that one before getting it on accident when I dropped my Stream Deck.
 
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Tide Hunter

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I picked all the conversational options, other than Do Nothing; eventually I ran them all out and was left with Fight.
You are not aware of Conversation Battles. Have you ever done the Dog Days quest? Did you try to do it without fighting Hethia, and without getting Sanders to complete the quest for you? That, of course, is done by listening to Garret say that she's down by the banks between 16:00 and 20:00, heading there, and selecting the Parlay option. If you did, then you can engage in a basic convo battle. It's extremely simple and easy, considering that it's literally impossible to fail unless you repeatedly select wrong answers that you already selected another time, but it serves its purpose as a convo battle. You talk, you need to select the right answers, if you don't, you take resolve damage and need to go through that bit of dialogue again.

I've never done the centaur dungeon, but I assume, given how everyone else is responding, that this is also a convo battle. I believe that they have likely played this game for a long time, for several years and perhaps completed the COM (Definitely Emerald), like I have. Considering how you're talking about the conversation, you don't know about conversation battles, likely just not ever doing the parlay option of Dog Days. I'd get why this would be confusing or difficult for you, then, because I doubt it's as easy as the Dog Days Debate, so rather than an introduction you're getting plunged in head-first. I'm not sure what advice I can give you to fix this, aside from what the others are saying: Don't just blindly pick everything, pay attention to the conversation and motivations, and figure out the order you're suppose to pick choices. Several are likely incorrect options, so don't go back and repick them too.
And it's bad game design to treat "lose the game to gain knowledge, then restart and use that knowledge" as a deliberate tactic.
Dark Souls isn't a perfect game, but it's also one of the most well-known and well-liked examples of this design that I can think of. Not to go too in-depth, but basically, the boss fights are about learning how to counter the boss, both in learning its moveset and how to dodge and in gaining knowledge of its weaknesses (both in terms of damage types, weak spots, and the openings during its moves). Of course, it's a live-action 3d game with a different design philosophy from CoC2, but my point is simply that to call it bad game design as a blanket statement is incorrect. It can be bad design, but that's dependent on its implementation. I don't believe most players use consumables, but there is a purpose for their existence, in how they can deal alternative damage types, so that if you know the enemy's weaknesses, you can use it to make fights much easier. Even if you don't use or have consumables, you can still exploit weaknesses through equipment, powers, and companions, and if the foe is susceptible to tease you can use that rather than wade through the health pool.
 

Furiae

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I've never done the centaur dungeon, but I assume, given how everyone else is responding, that this is also a convo battle. I believe that they have likely played this game for a long time, for several years and perhaps completed the COM (Definitely Emerald), like I have.

I only played back in the foothills-only days, then came back recently and had no trouble with Centaurdad or Hethia (I banged the salamanders, so no COM yet). If you READ the text/tool tips instead of clicking through, it's pretty clear what you wanna do.
 

Savin

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Hard Convo was Navera, I don't know how many times I failed that one before getting it on accident when I dropped my Stream Deck.

That's hilarious.

And it's bad game design to treat "lose the game to gain knowledge, then restart and use that knowledge" as a deliberate tactic.

It's there to make the game easier. You never at any point need to use Sense, either (I honestly don't think I ever have, even when playing content I've never seen before -- you'd be surprised how often that is :p ). If you're halfway decent at the game you can brute force just about any fight, even on Dark difficulty.
 

Akhter13

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Having multiple characters of various levels of progression I use "Sense" to label safe combats* as I must have won previously with the PC not doing anything useful.
*If "Sense" is greyed out my crew should have no problems.
In a slight digression I have sensed the Painted Demons over a dozen times without success, does RNG just not like me or is there something i should know?

Regarding "Conversation Battles" they are a linguistic logic puzzles, a little like a cross word. The ease is dictated by the degree of alignment, of world view, between the problem setter and the problem solver. Are you using compatible theories of the mind?
Herod_Hammerstar I would suggest by the nature of "his" posts and his defaulting to brute forcing conversation is not someone given to sullying his perfection with the taint of empathy.

My record on conversation battles is as follows
  • Hethia - done it both ways, there is different content depending which path you follow, so that's why you have multiple characters
  • Taldahs - Did fight him the first time, but that was with My Orc Warrior [Bollbag] whose Role play rules are: fuck everything, don't take advice and I can only play him when Tipsy [this occasion 4 glasses of Port, how I wish I had a smoking jacket]. For Bollbag it not ending in a fight would have been the fail. All my other characters have talked him down.
  • Convocation Of Mirrors - none of my characters even discovered the conversation battle as they all considered it unnecessarily cruel to tell the Twins they were dead. So went back tried it a few times no luck. Then I tried it with the walkthrough, attempting to work out why certain responses where the right ones frankly fried my noggin.
 

Herod_Hammerstar

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The Taldahs conversation fight is like baby's first debate. It's super easy, even if you don't get extra info about him from Ahmri just by paying attention to what he's saying and how he reacts.

I did pay attention, and I picked what seemed to be the obviously correct response in every situation. It kept him talking for a while, but eventually ended in a fight. I had every reason to assume that i had correctly reached the intended outcome, as I described before. It makes perfect sense that if a guy is corrupted, you probably can't win ONLY with reason and empathy; instead, those things reduce his demonic influence enough that beating him becomes possible. Not until after he'd wiped out my party did I find out that my supposition was wrong. From a narrative perspective it made perfect sense.

Anyway, if the clues on how to win this encounter are hidden in the massive walls of text that the game throws up, then I'm not sure whether I care to bother finding them. I'm not always averse to reading, but the immense throbbing purpleness of the prose in this game's sex scenes has kinda trained me to tune out.

Gytha isn't hard to beat either unless you get unlucky. Resolve her down and stun and beat down her dog.

I tried that (minus the Stun part since I've never seen a power that does that). It didn't work, my Teases take like three full rounds to put most enemies down since I'm not a Charmer and not usually running Quint. My champ has Cleave, and when Brint does Cleave it kills basically every enemy in one hit. That and Cait's healing are the only things in the game that don't seem underpowered, compared to how strong the opposition is (apart from obviously easy foes like the wolves and harpies).

That's not the same kind of thing at all, one is an unintended glitch and the other is taking advantage of the fact that you're playing a game and can do things like reload a save and try again if you fail the first time.

When you're playing chess, you could "take advantage of the fact that you're playing a game" to scoop all of your opponent's pawns, knights and rooks off the board and then checkmate him on turn 1, but that would be violating the spirit of the game. Abusing save states to gain information outside of the game's accessible channels is similarly a violation of the spirit of a video game. Ideally, a game that uses things like elemental resistances, and assumes that you have to scan the enemy to learn what they are before you can win, would have them computed randomly whenever a game is reloaded, so that scanning and then resetting would give you information that would not apply to the next game. I'm not expecting every game to reach that ideal, but in the spirit of narrative immersion and fair play, I avoid these sorts of exploits when playing a game, since they're only one step back from plugging in a GameGenie and turning on God Mode. (Which I do consider a valid way of experiencing a game's story and characters and such, if the gameplay is too damn hard and is getting in the way, but in this case COC2's enjoyment largely comes from the gameplay itself, which I do consider pretty well-designed apart from some of what I perceive to be balance issues.)

The Retry option is literally a free save point that takes you back to just before you initiate any fight that results in a game over.

It still resets you to being stuck inside a scenario that you can't back out of, in order to go back to town and buy more items if you need to, or the like. Thusly, it is not particularly useful. I get that the game warns you to be ready before you go in, but there's a limit to how ready you can be without playing and losing the scenario in order to find out how screwed you are. And, the aforementioned point about fair play notwithstanding, I *hate* when a game forces me to redo previous progress. If I beat the Unitaur once, she should stay beat for that character, even if I have to reset to before I entered the village. (That last part is pure personal opinion, not a criticism of the game design; from an objective standard having everything reset is probably correct, I'm just saying it bugs me, because I've always hated "grind" and the "sorry, try again" approach to gaming.)

Given how much you're bitching about the lack of in-dungeon saving, I'd think you'd appreciate that the game doesn't require you to redo the entire thing over again each time.

Except that, by potentially trapping you in a no-win scenario, it does exactly that.

Honestly, maybe you just suck at the game.

Entirely possible, but if true, I'd call that a failure in the game design. Short of being unable to play Pong because of arthritis, every game experience should be accessible to every potential player, or the game maker has been inadequately accomodating toward their audience. It is true that the game has an Easy difficulty setting, and in retrospect I should probably have been on that all along, but it's far too late to fix that now. The game's up-front labeling did not give me any reason to expect it to be Dark Souls-level difficulty (I'm going by reputation here, not having actually played Dark Souls; I can't think of a game that I have played which was so outrageously difficult as that one is rumored to be, not until I got here at least.)

The designers of 3E Dungeons and Dragons did the right thing when they introduced the concept of Challenge Rating; they didn't manage to get it right, and still haven't two editions later, but the general idea that the game should have a difficulty calibrator was a good one. If you're designing a game, you should put the tools to allow the player to manage their experience into the game, and then keep adjusting them as necessary until the game accommodates everyone who ever might want to play it. Otherwise, your game is excluding potential customers and it doesn't belong on the market, since by its very existence, it obscures access to other games that do a better job of welcoming all players.

The Chieftain will give you a question while you are talking with him, it has 3 answers, 1 of them is correct. Take into account what he says, take into account the reason you are even in the Centaur village in the 1st place. Why is he fighting? why did he take Kasyrra's power. you get the answer and you win without needing to fight him.

Nope, I followed those conversation prompts in the order that seemed obviously right, and it still ended in a fight.

I love it that this is said as if it's some kind of cheaty, overwhelming advantage when it's needed to even out the action and recharge economy between the opposing sides.

When your opponent has 400 HP and you have 200, and he hits for more than twice as much damage to your entire party as your entire party deals to him, getting more actions than him is hardly something that "needs to be evened out".

Story mode is always a thing if people don't want to bother with the game part of the game.

Hm?

For reference, Taldahs is meant to be a middling level 4 encounter if you fight him.

Sure didn't seem that way to me; I was level 4 and he utterly destroyed me before I could take a third action.

You are not aware of Conversation Battles. Have you ever done the Dog Days quest? Did you try to do it without fighting Hethia, and without getting Sanders to complete the quest for you? That, of course, is done by listening to Garret say that she's down by the banks between 16:00 and 20:00, heading there, and selecting the Parlay option. If you did, then you can engage in a basic convo battle. It's extremely simple and easy, considering that it's literally impossible to fail unless you repeatedly select wrong answers that you already selected another time, but it serves its purpose as a convo battle. You talk, you need to select the right answers, if you don't, you take resolve damage and need to go through that bit of dialogue again.

I have done this experience, yes. I beat her in combat first, but have done it with and without Sanders' help as well. I see a similarity in concept between the two, but in execution they seem different. But admittedly, I've only dealt with Tahldas once, because of the impossibility of saving immediately before that encounter.

Dark Souls isn't a perfect game, but it's also one of the most well-known and well-liked examples of this design that I can think of. Not to go too in-depth, but basically, the boss fights are about learning how to counter the boss, both in learning its moveset and how to dodge and in gaining knowledge of its weaknesses (both in terms of damage types, weak spots, and the openings during its moves). Of course, it's a live-action 3d game with a different design philosophy from CoC2, but my point is simply that to call it bad game design as a blanket statement is incorrect.

As mentioned, I'm not too familiar with that game, but if that's the intention of how it is to be played, then it should give you many opportunities to learn information about a combat before you encounter it. And I mean learning through the actual game, not learning by abusing save states. You should be able to do things like training fights against more manageable opponents who use the same fighting style, so that you can practice how to dodge those moves, without having to die because you failed. Of course, this approach feels very much like it's founded on how combat actually occurs in real life, and my personal preference is very much more for the escapist approach. Off the top of my head, my favorite game in terms of the combat system is probably Final Fantasy V, which is very thoroughly not realistic in terms of how it works, and I don't wish it was more so. Fun gameplay trumps some attempt at immersion and verisimilitude to my way of thinking, although I respect an opinion to the contrary.

I don't believe most players use consumables

Nor should they, given that only the Champion can do so, and it takes his entire action to do it. Pure suicide in any sort of difficult combat, unless you're in a playstyle where the champ doesn't really do anything and is just support for the other two. Probably not a coincidence that my Charmer has had the easiest time going through the game, and my Warrior the hardest.

if the foe is susceptible to tease you can use that rather than wade through the health pool.

The tease damage system is not really well balanced with regular damage IMO; almost all other powers do exclusively health damage, with Quint and Atugia being basically the only exceptions. Since I'm not running both of those plus a Charmer (a combo that would be suicidal against fights that can't be won that way), Tease is usually not going to be worthwhile, and that's particularly true in this scenario, since you have Ahmri along and she only does physical attacks, so her input is completely wasted if you're trying to attack Resolve. IMO the game should maybe rebalance around having nearly all attacks damage both Health and Resolve; there's already precedent for Resolve damage representing things like fear or insanity as well as sexual temptation, so ideally even an attack like Cleave or Thunder Strike might demoralize foes as well as injuring them.
 

Paradox01

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Anyway, if the clues on how to win this encounter are hidden in the massive walls of text that the game throws up, then I'm not sure whether I care to bother finding them. I'm not always averse to reading, but the immense throbbing purpleness of the prose in this game's sex scenes has kinda trained me to tune out.
Yeah, except this is a TEXT GAME. Sure, if I'm at a "generic" sex scene I tend to skim through it and mash the "Next" button but for everything else? It pays to read. You know, IN A TEXT GAME.

I still WATCH a video game even if the graphics aren't the best because, you know, I chose to play a video game.
 

Balaknightfang

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Anyway, if the clues on how to win this encounter are hidden in the massive walls of text that the game throws up, then I'm not sure whether I care to bother finding them. I'm not always averse to reading, but the immense throbbing purpleness of the prose in this game's sex scenes has kinda trained me to tune out.

Entirely possible, but if true, I'd call that a failure in the game design. Short of being unable to play Pong because of arthritis, every game experience should be accessible to every potential player, or the game maker has been inadequately accomodating toward their audience. It is true that the game has an Easy difficulty setting, and in retrospect I should probably have been on that all along, but it's far too late to fix that now. The game's up-front labeling did not give me any reason to expect it to be Dark Souls-level difficulty (I'm going by reputation here, not having actually played Dark Souls; I can't think of a game that I have played which was so outrageously difficult as that one is rumored to be, not until I got here at least.)

PEBKAC.jpg
 

WolframL

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My champ has Cleave, and when Brint does Cleave it kills basically every enemy in one hit. That and Cait's healing are the only things in the game that don't seem underpowered, compared to how strong the opposition is (apart from obviously easy foes like the wolves and harpies).
It's not that everyone else is underpowered, it's that those two are deliberately overpowered for the early game, back when they were the first two companions and were meant to help carry you through the initial learning curve. Brint eventually runs into issues with his particular weaknesses and Cait can be upstaged in healing by Ryn once you get the latter's Queenly Raiment.

When you're playing chess, you could "take advantage of the fact that you're playing a game" to scoop all of your opponent's pawns, knights and rooks off the board and then checkmate him on turn 1, but that would be violating the spirit of the game. Abusing save states to gain information outside of the game's accessible channels is similarly a violation of the spirit of a video game.
Sense data carrying over into a retry is built into the game, it's not violating the spirit of it to use a mechanic that the devs put into it to begin with, while your examples aren't playing within the rules of the games at all.

Look, you clearly aren't very good at the gameplay aspect of CoC2. It's only going to be exacerbated if you refuse to even look at enemy weaknesses and take advantage of them.

Ideally, a game that uses things like elemental resistances, and assumes that you have to scan the enemy to learn what they are before you can win, would have them computed randomly whenever a game is reloaded, so that scanning and then resetting would give you information that would not apply to the next game.
When resistances are a thematic thing, randomizing them would be about the stupidest thing ever since there would be no relationship between the enemy and the resistances. If there's an enemy with shifting resistances that's one thing but for most cases, expecting them to change with each play would be a violation of immersion and good game design.

Short of being unable to play Pong because of arthritis, every game experience should be accessible to every potential player, or the game maker has been inadequately accomodating toward their audience.
Bullshit.

IMO the game should maybe rebalance around having nearly all attacks damage both Health and Resolve; there's already precedent for Resolve damage representing things like fear or insanity as well as sexual temptation, so ideally even an attack like Cleave or Thunder Strike might demoralize foes as well as injuring them.
Oh yeah, sure, the devs are going to completely rebalance a game that functions perfectly well for 99% of the players because one guy sucks at it... How's that boulder-pushing going, Sisyphus?
 

Furiae

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Jan 7, 2021
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So I think I cracked the code. This guy didn't do anything with the Harboring a Fugitive quest before going to the centaur camp, methinks.

HOW that happened I dunno...
 

Herod_Hammerstar

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Bullshit.

Such an eloquent rebuttal to my carefully crafted argument. Let me guess, you hacked into your teacher's database and gave yourself an "A" in debate class.

How's that boulder-pushing going, Sisyphus?

The gods had no right to judge me, but if I'm stuck performing this task for all eternity, then goddammit I'm going to perform the task if it takes me all eternity to do.

So I think I cracked the code. This guy didn't do anything with the Harboring a Fugitive quest before going to the centaur camp, methinks.

HOW that happened I dunno...

It would have been impossible, so no, I did trigger the quest as was mandatory.
 
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