Your Gripes With CoC2
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TheShepard256
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IIRC, the Bessy Mauler is kind of a large crossbow - or at least, a precursor to crossbows. Maybe a portable, downsized (but still large for most races) version of an arbalest? I'm pretty sure it's something along those lines.
Rapiers are certainly too modern, relatively speaking, but crossbows aren’t considering the Chinese were making them as early as the 7th century BCE. We actually do already have an example of one in game with the Bessy Mauler, so it wouldn’t be unreasonable to see more of them.
Honestly, I imagine the sword design choices are just part of the civilisations we've encountered not being rapier-esque. The southern Minos are Roman/Greek-esque, so they probably use the gladius sword design. Smooth, reliable, adaptable. The orcs are more barbarian/Viking-esque so their weapons seem to gravitate towards axes and hammers. I suppose some elves may use rapiers, but most of those we've seen tend to use long weapons. Spears, scythes, greatswords. The kitsune obviously use katanas and suchlike.
I guess a rapier would be more fitting for a culture that indulges in duelling and fancy swordplay, like pre-Revolutionary France.
I guess a rapier would be more fitting for a culture that indulges in duelling and fancy swordplay, like pre-Revolutionary France.
Is Raphael’s weapon a sword or a rapier? The blade seems to be a common sword but the hilt is quite detailed much like a rapier. Would that count as the only “person” with a rapier in coc2?
Relatively speaking. As someone pointed out, crossbows existed as early as the 7th BCE, which is way earlier than I expected, but that is still some centuries after the Bronze Age ended (it lasted between 3000 BCE to 1200 BCE. When I use modern, I mean in the sense that it is further along the tech tree, if such a thing were to exist. In an earlier time period than the Bronze Age.
Yeah, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to see more of them, I was just theorizing that there’s just not many for the specific purpose of not ruining the vibe. It’s not like the intent is to make the setting as close to the Bronze Age as possible, but I think preserving a more primitive vibe might be. Just a theory tho.
Rapier's are a 15th century creation so they fail the within a few hundred year gap of the trident being just a bit later then the bronze age. There are accounts of a rapier like swords hailing from bronze age Ireland, so it would have to be one of those if anything and we would have to get it from where ever Tui is from.
The Greeks had crossbow like weapons called gastraphetes in the first century so its not that far into the "tech tree" in comparison to the bronze age, some other weapons in game are bigger offenders anyway.
The Greeks had crossbow like weapons called gastraphetes in the first century so its not that far into the "tech tree" in comparison to the bronze age, some other weapons in game are bigger offenders anyway.
I think the intent is for it to be a rapier, so yeah I guess so. Would fit the intended aesthetic.
Right. Though, from what I recall the Belharan Empire was an Iron Age civ, with modern Savarra having regressed to Bronze Age tech (for some reason) after its collapse.
Given that Belhar seems to be loosely based on Rome, I think we could certainly see some more of them as preserved relics, given that the Romans had them around the same time as the Greeks.
Pretty sure the Belharans did also use some Bronze Age tech, that only some of their weapons were made with iron.
As for why Savarra regressed to Bronze Age, it was more so for the same reason that Belhar collapsed rather than because of the collapse itself, namely, because of the Godswar.
Oh, I understand that part, I just always thought the Iron to Bronze Age regression was a bit contrived.
I don’t think technology regressing because a significant percentage of the global population died is contrived. Maybe the game could do a better job getting across the idea of how much death and devastation was caused by the Godswar though. However, there is one good example I can think of and that is that some people apparently suspected the boreal elves were extinct or a myth all along. That should tell you something of how hard they got mollywhopped, and they are quite some distance away from Estelore, I imagine there’s a lot of ghost towns and ruins closer to it. You get this info from one of Garth’s talks, either about the old forest or frostwood, and I think maybe you only get it early game (or at least you should, before you give definitive evidence to the contrary).
I guess you could argue though that it doesn’t really make sense it should take so long for the population to spring back, but that’s a whole other separate issue to which I say: maybe.
I vaguely recall something about how the tech regression and stagnancy is by design of the Gods. I can't recall if it was The Observer or Alypia that said it.
I mean, as a whole, sure I agree. Certainly in areas like medicine, construction, and various sciences. It’s the switch to bronze over iron I find a tad silly, as I’ve discussed in previous posts.
Honestly, worldbuilding aside, my only gripe with going back to such a primitive time period is that I'm not sure what the point is, other than to make it seem so weird and alien when we see stuff like a Steampunk Hellgate in the Palace of Ice. Like I don't need a rationalisation for why fantasy settings haven't evolved beyond the Feudal system and Romanesque or Gothic architecture, and why everyone uses antiquated weapons instead of guns. It's fantasy. The old-fashioned medieval societies and world design are part of the genre's DNA. If you were doing something like introducing modern appliances like fridges, telephones and public transportation in the form of trains and planes, sure, that would be something you'd have to explain.
Otherwise, I'd rather skip the history lesson and get on with the story. You know, the characters, their actions, their motives. That's the important part.
Otherwise, I'd rather skip the history lesson and get on with the story. You know, the characters, their actions, their motives. That's the important part.
I personally like the bronze-esque aesthetic.
It reminds me of what I learned about the Dark Ages (greek edition) between the collapse of the palace-culture and the beginning of antiquity.
Crumbling authority, a changing world, heroes (in the classical sense) rowing aroudn with a small group of followers and being on adventures for fame, glory and loot. Breaking into old tombs to find good weapons. The world that is the basis of some of the greek myth!
When we went over that time during my history studies I felt that this time period fits the fantasy adventure genre much more than the middle ages.
It reminds me of what I learned about the Dark Ages (greek edition) between the collapse of the palace-culture and the beginning of antiquity.
Crumbling authority, a changing world, heroes (in the classical sense) rowing aroudn with a small group of followers and being on adventures for fame, glory and loot. Breaking into old tombs to find good weapons. The world that is the basis of some of the greek myth!
When we went over that time during my history studies I felt that this time period fits the fantasy adventure genre much more than the middle ages.
I think it was Tobs and it wasn’t so much confirming their interference as providing a justification. A justification that, when applied to anything beyond knowledge with military applications, ranges from dumb to debatable. I’m gonna put that aside though, in favor of working of off in-game info and also my own, I think, reasonable speculation.
The stagnancy they may be responsible for to some extent, but the regression probably not.
I say maybe to stagnancy because it’s hard to imagine much of a motive for them to keep certain things secret. Like I don’t think they got the secret to making paved roads hidden away somewhere. Portal magic they most likely know more than they are letting anyone else know. I just don’t find Savarra’s regression sudden or incredible enough to think there might be some secret conspiracy behind it. Shit got fucked up, Belhar wasn’t built in a day and rebuilding it with a blueprint won’t be much faster, if enough records even exist to construct such a thing. That’s another thing, records, physical or stored in the minds of people in the know, get lost, through a combination of their scarcity in the first place and fireballs being thrown around. Ultimately, I think that is the reason for the technological regression and stagnation both, it can be that simple, it doesn’t have to not be.
Then again I’m really not sure why Nareva bothered to keep mirror magic of all things secret. She probably gave some reasoning for it, but if so I forgot what it was, and it was probably not a good one anyways. It’s not like it’s the secret to building a magic nuke or anything, seems fairly innocuous. Could be she, if no one else, keeps some interesting magic under lock and key. But it’s not like she’s omniscient or anything, might be there’s far more forgotten than hidden by her—I find that more interesting personally. In which case hard to blame her solely, or even mainly, for any slow recovery. So yeah if any of the seven is at all responsible, even if only to a minor extent, for Savarra’s stagnation, it’s probably her.
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Because smelting iron requires unique technology compared to smelting bronze. Iron needs to be brought to a much higher temperature, meaning it needs a specific design of forge to effectively raise the heat. It's the entire reason people in the real world used bronze for so long despite iron being much more plentiful and easier to find. If the knowledge of how to build iron forges was lost, then they physically can't make iron weapons, even if they may want to.
Civilization being lesser, regressed if you will, compared to its past self is also part of the genre’s DNA. Look at Lotr for example: the Numenoreans are mostly dead, the elves will soon leave for faraway shores, things like balrogs and dragons that were once legion are now rare and soon to be myths. Things were just much cooler back in the good old days. And that is meant to mirror how civilization declined following the fall of the roman empire: that is why fantasy is most often set in medieval times, since they are the time period following the dark ages that came after the downfall of Rome. So, things being shit after the downfall of basically Rome, Belhar, is just coming full circle.
Also, look man, there’s gotta be an explanation for where all this ruins came from. Something has to be responsible for them.
Yeah, honestly, people are just kind of dismissing and underestimating the complexity of metallurgy/smithing. I think that is what it comes down to.
Adding to this, as I mentioned before, iron weapons were still something of a rarity even in ancient Belhar (correct me if I’m wrong) so iron forges must’ve been a rarity. So it’s not a stretch to say they were all destroyed or left abandoned by people fleeing the wraiths’ advance.
There are so many status effects that the 6 slots that show up in combat aren't enough.
Also, a couple of notes about technology. Raphael came from Mareth (At least its implied) which has far more advanced technology than Savarra. Additionally, in a lot a different ways, bronze is a better metal than iron. The problem with bronze is that it requires tin which is extremely rare on earth. If tin is more abundant in Savarra, civilization could advance even with the delay in ironworking. That is at least the way I square the circle because CoC II feels more like a medieval era than bronze age era.
Also, a couple of notes about technology. Raphael came from Mareth (At least its implied) which has far more advanced technology than Savarra. Additionally, in a lot a different ways, bronze is a better metal than iron. The problem with bronze is that it requires tin which is extremely rare on earth. If tin is more abundant in Savarra, civilization could advance even with the delay in ironworking. That is at least the way I square the circle because CoC II feels more like a medieval era than bronze age era.