Your gripes with CoC II

[redlightnin55]

As far as I know, writers attempt to avoid power fantasies. In the quest for creating a believable world, things happen outside of the Champion's reach, such as Kinu's life or relationships like these ones. I can understand why this can be read as reducing player agency or that one kink which name is censored on this forum.

Writers are a vast and diverse group of people that certainly do not all try to avoid writing the same thing. Just as an example, almost the entirety of the Isekai genre is a power fantasy, and there are many, many, many writers within that space.

As for this, specifically, their point is that when the champion is in a sex scene, they're supposed to be more involved and their part written more about, unless the kink is focused on them not being involved in which case they're still written about. Again, prime example being when you watch Brint bone Elthara. Your character is described frequently enjoying the sight and much of the scene focuses on it as a fetish from the player's perspective.

In this case, it doesn't really try to be anything, so it becomes a sort of neglect as far as the player's role is factored in. And the player is supposed to be the main focus, yes. Even in your example, the fox stuff is some of the most widely criticized content and one of the common complaints is about how you have no agency, unlike the rest of the game. Regardless of where you personally stand on it, it is factually true that many more people criticize that portion compared to any other parts of the game.

I'd advise reading the discourse about this particular threesome subject over the last few pages of this thread if you'd like more info and examples. I and others have been talking about it plenty.

 

[Kesil]

And I'd advise not assuming that those characters are not two of my faves ones in the game, meaning I have tried to proc every available scene involving them That extends to Daliza and Jael'yn as much as it does to Azyrran and Liaden. In fact, I have often wondered if I was the only Jael'yn fan around!
Or, better yet, assuming I'm not getting a point I actually agree with. Being a third wheel is not a kink I like, and similar situations in the game that restrict player agency are not my cup of tea either. It was an explanation as opposed to a justification.

 

[redlightnin55]

And I'd advise not assuming that those characters are not two of my faves ones in the game, meaning I have tried to proc every available scene involving them That extends to Daliza and Jael'yn as much as it does to Azyrran and Liaden. In fact, I have often wondered if I was the only Jael'yn fan around!
Or, better yet, assuming I'm not getting a point I actually agree with. Being a third wheel is not a kink I like, and similar situations in the game are not my cup of tea. It was an explanation as opposed to a justification.

I never assumed you disliked the characters.

I couldn't have possibly known you agreed with anything because you never really stated an opinion on anything and just kind of devil's advocated an assortment of points I was struggling to figure out context for. I'm still trying to figure out how what you linked here

Their game, their arbitrarliy applied rules and their writers' prerogative. ¯\(ツ)/¯

contextually relates to what's been talked about. Is it that you, or... someone else wants to fuck Kinu and was told no, and now you're saying everyone should just stop griping about any other types of content? I feel like I'm missing the context there.

Either way the purpose of this thread is to gripe about the game, even if it's just going into the aether.

Regardless of all that, not making your stance known and then blaming or shaming me for not knowing it is odd.

I'm not sure if you've read some condescension from my previous post, it does seem like you might have, but I assure you there was none intended. My suggestion to read what's been written about this subject was just to save some time in my having to repeat the same points over and over. I prefer expounding on new angles.

 

[Kesil]

I never assumed you disliked the characters.

I felt you assumed I didn't know about their scenes and, therefore, didn't get what the conversation was about.

I couldn't have possibly known you agreed with anything because you never really stated an opinion on anything

Obviously I didn't because it was irrelevant.

I'm still trying to figure out how what you linked here contextually relates to what's been talked about.

Just a "writers are as writers do" link to show that, sometimes, they knowingly "troll" the players.

Regardless of all that, not making your stance known and then blaming or shaming me for not knowing it is odd.

I abhor the argumentum ad hominem. And, again, it was an explanation. Especially having noticed that you created an account a month ago and (unless having lurked around) you may not have read what writers have stated here or there, or know about points that have been brought over and over. That's why a certain common complaint from the CoC days ("furry futa femdom") is included in the CoC2 disclaimer, or why this certain kink name is censored on the forums
CoC2 is not a bubble created in a vacuum-it has been developed after previous events and circumstances, up and including CoC's Helspawn (which influenced Kinu's development), creator rights and mods issues, TiTS' TF elements and how they impact (or not) in a game's code or scenes, the very size of scenes themselves... All those moments have left a mark in the way staff manages its contents, for better or worse.

 

[redlightnin55]

I abhor the argumentum ad hominem. And, again, it was an explanation. Especially having noticed that you created an account a month ago and (unless having lurked around) you may not have read what writers have stated here or there, or know about points that have been brought over and over. That's why a certain common complaint from the CoC days ("furry futa femdom") is included in the CoC2 disclaimer, or why this certain kink name is censored on the forums
CoC2 is not a bubble created in a vacuum-it has been developed after previous events and circumstances, up and including CoC's Helspawn (which influenced Kinu's development), creator rights and mods issues, TiTS' TF elements and how they impact (or not) in a game's code or scenes, the very size of scenes themselves... All those moments have left a mark in the way staff manages its contents, for better or worse.

Just to wind out this conversation since it seems to be going nowhere and neither of us seems to enjoy the nature of it, I'd just like to say some little closing notes.

I don't think anyone but you was arguing toward a specific person or people. You literally by your own admission shared an opinion with us but still took an adversarial stance. Now sure, you admit your intention was to explain, but in that event, your explanations could have been handled much better as you came off like you're any other internet counter-pointer. As it stands, I feel it comes off more dismissive and trivializing than anything. And if the general nature of the criticism or even repeating things talked about before bothers you, my suggestion would be to unfollow and/or ignore this thread. It'll save you potential headaches.

Lastly, why shut down or just give up on potential feedback? If you made your opinion on this known at this point of so many other people sharing it, it might actually lead to some changes. I may not have been around the forum long, but I've already seen that Lia and Azzy's relationship is getting at least a dawnsword-adjacent rework in the future. I'd bet that was probably due to feedback people gave a while ago, and if so, it can happen again.

Dissatisfaction with the previously mentioned thrupples doesn't seem terribly rare considering, well...this thread for the last month or so. Mine and others' comments about the subject have garnered more attention and likes from individual people than any other subject brought up in this thread for roughly the last 10 pages, and the more I've talked about it, the more different people seem to have shown up to address it or at least note something adjacent to a shared opinion with a like. 6-8 people doesn't seem like a lot on paper, but compared to the average 0-3 supporting voices most other sentiments get in this thread, which most forum users probably don't even come to, it paints a slightly clearer picture. I think it's worth discussing still, and if you feel a particular way about it, I encourage you to make it clearly known while the conversation is once again fresh due to new voices joining the forum.

 

[Kesil]

Just to wind out this conversation since it seems to be going nowhere and neither of us seems to enjoy the nature of it,

Says you I do agree that it'd be best to end it for the sake of the thread itself. Now, if you feel like contacting me via private messages, go ahead!

you came off like you're any other internet counter-pointer.

Which is what I am at the end of the day - a regular forum user.

my suggestion would be to unfollow and/or ignore this thread. It'll save you potential headaches.

There's no reason to play that card here. Quit with the personal remarks, please.

Lastly, why shut down or just give up on potential feedback?

Because, even if staff may be willing to listen (this is a pinned thread, and I am especially grateful for Alypia's forum interactions!) it won't change anything, smutty scene and character development wise. Of course, this is what the thread is about, but this is not one of these issues that may get solved by submitting content or suggesting QoL changes (e.g. the Dawnsword one). Trust me if I said I wish was proved wrong, but that has rarely happened for CoC, CoC2 or TiTS.

and if you feel a particular way about it, I encourage you to make it clearly known while the conversation is once again fresh due to new voices joining the forum.

I may have done it out of frustration here or there, but knowing it meant beating a dead horse regardless of how old or new these voices are. Or loud, as all the "murderboner"-deemed users or those that want Etheryn to get a vulva-and-vagina system enthusiasts can attest. You can't TF your pals in a major way, you can't get a wonky lower body or more than four arms. And so on and so forth.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

You can't TF your pals in a major way,

Minor quibble, but we can turn Brint into a cowgirl and Berwyn into a girl or herm through their sidequests. Some would consider that a major transformation. Especially since Brint becomes almost a whole new person.

 

[Kesil]

Without the "almost", I'd say. (I'm biased there, though...) But it's not something that happens on the regular due to the many issues it'd cause. There are reasons why you can't access the cursed armour for Brint once you get on your way to Khor'minos.

 

[redlightnin55]

Alright, I certainly did not intend to delve back into this, but I just can't help myself after seeing these two gems.

There's no reason to play that card here.

I would argue it is appropriate simply because you are in the complaint thread telling people to stop complaining, when it is an ongoing, actual conversation. While I've certainly been involved heavily in it, I've been talking about it with other users in the thread as well and we're sharing our own perspectives as well as possible ways it could be solved. It doesn't have to be directly addressed by devs if they don't want to, but the conversation will naturally peter out on its own regardless. You coming in and trying to shut it down is petty, pointless, dismissive, and depressing. If it has already been addressed by the devs, at least in regards to the Jael and Daliza stuff, feel free to link to a dev post about it. Or anyone else too. I'm sure if it exists, it'll be in someone's counter-point index cards. If not, we can talk about it until the conversation dies naturally or it does get addressed by someone of authority on the matter.

And this

Because it won't change anything, smutty scene and character development wise.

is not only pointlessly defeatist, it is also factually untrue. Even as far back as page one of this thread--which you were on, I see--there are direct dev responses to things. A few pages back you can find a post from Savin addressing someone's suggestion and agreeing it would be a good thing to incorporate at a later date, regardless of how minor it is. Alypia has a very frequent presence here addressing things too. There are also an absolute shit ton of posts all across the CoC2 forum where someone requested something, a scene or alteration, and it was heard and addressed, if not right away then eventually, as long as it wasn't literal shit or completely incoherent. Just now I skimmed a basic, nonspecific search and found a number of posts where Savin or another dev or writer addressed feedback directly and said either "this is why this is what it is" or "we're working on it." They are listening and willing to act on things on a case by case basis.

I don't know what exactly you went through to make you feel like your voice or the voices of others don't matter, and whatever it is, I'm sorry it made you feel that way. Even so it doesn't really give you carte blanche to try making others feel the same.

 

[Animalistic]

I don't know what exactly you went through to make you feel like your voice or the voices of others don't matter

They wished for substantial male content.

 

[redlightnin55]

They wished for substantial male content.

Oof. Well if true I suppose I understand more about the why now, but it still doesn't justify pushing that negativity on others.

 

[Animalistic]

Especially since Brint becomes almost a whole new person.

"Almost"? What would it take for Brienne to be considered an entirely different person from Brint?

 

[arch99]

I would say that I am not an entirely new person from who I was before I transitioned, and on a superficial level I seem less similar to who I was before than Brienne (who carries over several personality traits at least) does.

 

[Animalistic]

You are not, but Brienne certainly is. All her similarities with Brint are skin deep at most.

 

[arch99]

I don't even have those skin-deep similarities. Fuck, my skin is entirely different these days, estrogen does wonders. Gender is a big thing, changing it changes who we are to a pretty deep degree. I think of Brienne as just a trans woman who discovered that by accident, and she seems exactly like what happens when buff, aggro dudebros (even if Brint is a pretty chill version of that trope) get to stop doing overcompensatory masculinity. It's very freeing. You should try it.

 

[Savin]

A few pages back you can find a post from Savin addressing someone's suggestion

Yeah I do read every post in this thread. I try and catch up a couple times of week at least.

It's uh, difficult to RESPOND to lengthy arguments/debates/discussions like this when I peek in 3 pages too late though XD


While I'm here I will just address the Corruption issue (again) since that's actually a pretty worthwhile point:

Corruption is important thematically. It's also something we try and be more subtle about than just "you struggle cuddle [NPC name] 20 times and break her mind." Turning the innocent forest dryads into absolute turbohorny sluts is a good example. Demons, including the Demon Queen herself, are literally able to just seduce you at any point in the game and you press the [yes mommy] button for exactly the reason they want you to: they're hot.

There are definitely a couple of points in the game where you can make major Corruption-oriented decisions and then that's kinda it. Hornet Hive is probably the ur-example, where you just get lots less content than if you hadn't done the thing. It's important those decisions be there (even if some, like the Hive, aren't necessarily the smoothest example), but not... really important that those immediately be graced with full, equally-weighted bricks of content behind them.

Would I like to expand the Corrupted Hornet Hive to have a bunch of extra content behind it? Sure. Is it worthwhile as compared to using the time it would take to write and code that to work on content the majority of players will actually engage with? Not really, and certainly not right now. To use Mass Effect as a quick datapoint, ~92% of players went full Paragon. And you don't have to engage with fetishes most people go "ew" at to be a Renegade; just be an asshole. Those numbers vary but predominantly hold true throughout gaming: the vast majority of people will always go the nice route.

When you're playing a game that is an active Work In Progress and has obligations to actually make some measure of forward progress every once in a while (on Companions, the Main Story, or new Dungeons) putting a huge amount of work into something a tiny fraction of players will actually even want to experience once isn't really a wise use of limited development resources (ie, time). When a new decision branch comes along, the nice version will always get preference because that's what 90% of players would choose anyway even if they thought there was an equivalent mass of content on the other branch.

Time and resources permitting, we'll eventually circle back and work on expanding the Corruption side of things. We've also certainly learned some lessons about how to better manage those branches in the future; something like Hornet Hive probably won't happen again because it does just create a black hole. But for right now in the middle of primary development, if I have to choose between using my time to write a 300 page quest/dungeon/sexpansion for one of the game's most popular characters or write 300 pages of Corrupt Hornet Hive for ~10% of the playerbase, the one that virtually everyone playing the game is going to go through on every playthrough is the one that gets development priority.

 

[wery12345]

Isn't another one of the things also basically making it to where you could logically have the champ avoid the blowback of corrupting or keeping somewhere corrupt. As to avoid the "maybe we should stop this person helping spread the corruption as well"?

 

[PuppyPrincess]

Turning the innocent forest dryads into absolute turbohorny sluts is a good example.

I always tend to do 'paragon'/ good girl/pure decisions and I never considered enlightening the Dryads as a corruption option but now that you phrase it like that, oops...

Still doing it though, Orlaith is like subby slut heaven.

 

[AceofSpades]

I always tend to do 'paragon'/ good girl/pure decisions and I never considered enlightening the Dryads as a corruption option but now that you phrase it like that, oops...

Still doing it though, Orlaith is like subby slut heaven.

I am afraid that based on the charge of corrupting Orlaith from a pillar of purity (lol) and making her want all the blowjobs, you must have your good girl card revoked.

 

[PuppyPrincess]

I am afraid that based on the charge of corrupting Orlaith from a pillar of purity (lol) and making her want all the blowjobs, you must have your good girl card revoked.

=O

Your honour, I have it on good authority that my client is still a good girl despite the allegations against her

Spoiler: Evidence

 

[cloer]

Play a (Half-) Lupine character.

All dogs go to heaven
Only good girls and boys get to go to heaven
Ergo: Whatever we do, we're always good boys/ girls because we go to heaven anyways.

QED

 

[Resawar]

Yeah I do read every post in this thread

This line is endlessly reassuring to me and even if late your input as lead writer would assumedly help a great many people with their problems.

If it was me bringing up corruption that lead you to post I didn't mean to bring corruption into my spiel, I was more trying to talk about expression of evil and it was left over from draft 1 which also included me talking about how I think most people go for the good path anyway.

 

[redlightnin55]

Yeah I do read every post in this thread. I try and catch up a couple times of week at least.

It's uh, difficult to RESPOND to lengthy arguments/debates/discussions like this when I peek in 3 pages too late though XD

I figured! I'm sure it doesn't help that I also write so, sooo much into my posts that it's undoubtedly exhausting to read after only a short time. But I just can't help myself! lol. I'll try to be a bit more concise from now on for your and others' sanities, at least in this thread.

Still it's very nice to have confirmation of what I already believed, that you and others are actively watching even if you're not addressing it due to whatever reasons you might have. Thank you for that.

There are definitely a couple of points in the game where you can make major Corruption-oriented decisions and then that's kinda it. Hornet Hive is probably the ur-example, where you just get lots less content than if you hadn't done the thing. It's important those decisions be there (even if some, like the Hive, aren't necessarily the smoothest example), but not... really important that those immediately be graced with full, equally-weighted bricks of content behind them.

Would I like to expand the Corrupted Hornet Hive to have a bunch of extra content behind it? Sure. Is it worthwhile as compared to using the time it would take to write and code that to work on content the majority of players will actually engage with? Not really, and certainly not right now. To use Mass Effect as a quick datapoint, ~92% of players went full Paragon. And you don't have to engage with fetishes most people go "ew" at to be a Renegade; just be an asshole. Those numbers vary but predominantly hold true throughout gaming: the vast majority of people will always go the nice route.

When you're playing a game that is an active Work In Progress and has obligations to actually make some measure of forward progress every once in a while (on Companions, the Main Story, or new Dungeons) putting a huge amount of work into something a tiny fraction of players will actually even want to experience once isn't really a wise use of limited development resources (ie, time). When a new decision branch comes along, the nice version will always get preference because that's what 90% of players would choose anyway even if they thought there was an equivalent mass of content on the other branch.

Time and resources permitting, we'll eventually circle back and work on expanding the Corruption side of things. We've also certainly learned some lessons about how to better manage those branches in the future; something like Hornet Hive probably won't happen again because it does just create a black hole. But for right now in the middle of primary development, if I have to choose between using my time to write a 300 page quest/dungeon/sexpansion for one of the game's most popular characters or write 300 pages of Corrupt Hornet Hive for ~10% of the playerbase, the one that virtually everyone playing the game is going to go through on every playthrough is the one that gets development priority.

Yes and yes on basically all of this. In different words I even said some of these points in my own thread addressing the corruption content, like if the content wasn't intended to be fleshed out at some point, it probably wouldn't have been an option at all. And that dividing up development attention for something less people will play wouldn't be a worthwhile or logical use of dev time.

Although I would argue that you enter into a very different sort of dataspace when you shift from regular games to porn games in regards to what players do. You may have hard metrics, I'm not sure whether you guys actually gather that kind of data or not, but just by personal experience, far less normies veer into porn games than degenerate, uhh...renegades, to continue the Mass Effect comparison. And thus, far less would default to paragon route. While I believe you are undoubtedly right that the majority of players will still choose good and pure, I doubt the gap is as significant as it would be in a non-porn gaming space. My instinct says it's probably 60/40 or 65-35.

Dissenting opinions aren't constantly assaulting this place because it naturally draws in by its nature as a fandom forum, people who largely support the product in question. However, if we're pulling total player data for who wants what, trust me when I say the steam users are quite opinionated. Rampant toxicity not withstanding, there are many voices over there that want the corruption routes and that want something other than futa doms. Just something to keep in mind if you don't already occasionally peruse that particular data pool. Or cesspool. However ones wishes to see it.

Though I personally have faith that you'll all end up making the best end product you can despite the hurdles.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

~92% of players went full Paragon

sobs lightly in renegade
My shep was renegade with a few exceptions here and there.

Seriously though it makes sense. As much as I enjoy playing the bad guy in games its not the most productive use of time for developers. I will say though that even if the corruption route isn't as fleshed out or as good as the pure route I still appreciate the fact that I'm given a choice in the matter. It was difficult for me to resist kicking Azzy and Lia into the corrupted honey the first time I seen it because up until that point I hadn't encountered many obviously corrupt options. I did end up saving before I did it and reverting after I seen the content there but still, the fact that the option existed was nice. Even if it did lead to turning the hive into a dead end for content it was nice that the choice of being the good guy or not wasn't forced on me.

Please keep up all the hard work! I've been a fan since the original CoC I've just never felt the desire to be an active part of the community until recently.

 

[Animalistic]

Corruption is important thematically. It's also something we try and be more subtle about than just "you struggle cuddle [NPC name] 20 times and break her mind." Turning the innocent forest dryads into absolute turbohorny sluts is a good example. Demons, including the Demon Queen herself, are literally able to just seduce you at any point in the game and you press the [yes mommy] button for exactly the reason they want you to: they're hot.

What is wrong with mindbreaking a guy or a girl into your sex slave? People like that stuff, especially in horny circles.

Would I like to expand the Corrupted Hornet Hive to have a bunch of extra content behind it? Sure. Is it worthwhile as compared to using the time it would take to write and code that to work on content the majority of players will actually engage with? Not really, and certainly not right now. To use Mass Effect as a quick datapoint, ~92% of players went full Paragon. And you don't have to engage with fetishes most people go "ew" at to be a Renegade; just be an asshole. Those numbers vary but predominantly hold true throughout gaming: the vast majority of people will always go the nice route.

Because the evil choices are usually terrible, rarely gives you a a good enough selfish/selfserving reason to do so, and do not fulfill the fantasy of being a "bad guy". Even the most positive examples such as Fallout fail on that front ala legion. And ME is one of the worst examples I have seen but I do not have time to dive deep into that mess.

And, beyond that, this is a porn game; Look how many people choose to enslave Sera, how many people want to dedick dickgirls forcefully and how many people were angry that Corrupt hive got abandoned. Give people good enough incetive and they will thrown their in-game virtues out of a window.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

What is wrong with mindbreaking a guy or a girl into your sex slave? People like that stuff, especially in horny circles.

Because you are neither a demon nor a proper, pure bred kitsune(not that there's a difference), so the application process for your character's license to mindbreak will not conclude until after the playble content of the game is finished.

My condolences.

 

[Animalistic]

Give me a weak and I will prove you wrong. Or just wait until Liulfr expansion gets released. Mindbreaking that boy will be great.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

Apologies to everyone else in here for digging up comments from a week ago to respond to, but I was unable to at the time and I am a slut for lore and ethics debates. They are the way of my people.

I feel you're looking at this world in the worst possible light. It's fine want to do that but by god is it depressing and I have to wonder if you look all media this way.

I can honestly see how you'd come to this conclusion, and that's fair. But I assure you that's not the glasses I'm looking at most settings through, and even then this analysis is smacked together with as little personal bias as I can muster. It's what I'm used to when someone presents their work to me, shutting the parts of my brain off that may like this or hate that, and trying to see what is actually there.

I'm really more curious then anything. I like breaking down lore to see what's holding it all together, it's something I can't really help but do at times even when I'm trying to indulge in the smut.

Anyhow, on to something to properly yammer about.

Spoiler

You seem very caught up in the fact that the gods were wraths once and probably killed a lot of people but they did ultimately save the world from certain doom and in their current forms are not malicious. T

Spoiler

If CoC2 was grimdark, the wraiths would have won the Godswar, or the Gods would be doing a lot worse than they already are. They're non-interventionists because they want people to be self-reliant, so that the mortals can cultivate power and bring down great foes without needing them, and will only directly fight if they determine that people really can not handle things on their own.

Spoiler

First off, I appreciate both of you actually responding with your own views and engaging me in a proper conversation with your reasonings for said views. This is more then can be said for some people.

But, I see this belief that the Seven aren't just blatantly apathetic to the greater suffering of mortal plebeians, and I have to offer my own counterpoint here. I'm going to write a lot here, but that's more because I get overly excited in these debates rather then me trying to drown the opposition in word walls or anything, so apologies in advance.

Not malicious, non-interventionist, there are conclusions that are easy to come to when looking at surface level. The surface level being their own mouths and the people deceived into worship them in-universe. And probably writers posting on here, but Word of God only accounts for so much if actions in-universe are running in opposition of it.

The Seven say they learned empathy from eating mortal souls? Snake also heavily implies that at least some of them believe that there's no afterlife, or that if your souls(or Ki, or both, it's some spiritual aspect that they do not specify which) gets screwed with enough it dissipates and you are gone after death.

If the former is the case, then the Seven are horrible for condoning the fates worse then death mortal beings inflict on eachother already in the absence of wraiths and demons. Slavery, rape, mindrape/killing, combinations of the three, with good ol' fashion robbery and murder on the side. That's all from places that follow the words and faiths of specific members of the Seven.

I mean, you can literally stumble into the Kitsune den because they left the front door wide open, nicely ask some friends you made about the bag Evergreen is paying you to find, and instead of telling you to get the hell out with an actual option to leave, they decide to beat you into submission, drag you to their leader, who can then proceed to forcefully genderbend you into a foxmorph that is then possessed by said leader, and whilst you are still consciously watching all this, forced to physically feel it and sobbing whilst trapped within your own mind, this leader uses your body to have sex(and rape you by extension) with someone else, all whilst the magical alterations of said body slowly mentally gaslight your consciousness into a compliant a breeding slave. Said leader then leaves your body, has a laugh at your expense whilst you're now physically sobbing, and then the mind alterations mostly takeover and that's that for you, the person you are has more or less been mentally killed in a superbly fucked up, drawn out fashion.

Now as much as I can appreciate some dark shit, you might be wondering why I am using this time to rant about Komari rather then any of the Seven like I had started off with. Well now, who is essentially omniscient in the affairs of the Kitsune den? With frequent physical visits, and indisputable power and authority?

Why, one of the Seven. Keros knows this has happened, he likely knew about it as it was happening, and he let that slide. Even if one does not want to interfere with the world trying to fight off an extra dimensional invasion of corruptive monsters for whatever reasoning, they have all the say in how their followers conduct themselves, they can tell them what is right and wrong. Keros himself has the ability to unfuck your body and brain in this situation, but he's apparently cool with this.

How about Mallach? You know what he never does after you build him his temple? Says "You know what champion, you've been doing a real good job fighting for the good of the world here and I appreciate that." Maybe he could not find the time to visit you before for reasons, the gods are so busy after all, but whilst you're there, you think he would at least express approval that you're showing the strength these shitheads are apparently looking for in their non-interventionist approach instead of just going on and on about how cool it is that you built him a temple and how it hopefully won't piss off Lumia, but wouldn't that be funny?

Lumia and Snek are a bit less blatantly sociopathic, at least Lumia acts outwardly kind, but all of this is a bit farfetched for beings that are supposedly empathetic for all the souls being corrupted, tortured and warped by the funni never ending hedonism legions. Mallach is at a party, one you find Snek hanging out at, whilst Keros is apparently perpetually on call to either fuck people that stop by his shrine or wreck someone's home life.

If they do believe that they should not intervene so mortals learn to be strong on their own, they should just be a b i t more regretful about the whole thing, and even then you'd think they'd be sympathetic to people getting soul fucked given how truly awful Lumia and I think(my short term memory is a bit spotty at times) Snek say they are about doing it to people themselves.

The Seven aren't bad because they're wraiths. They apparently gained proper emotions, after all. I've written eldritch abominations that have gained sympathy for poor 3 dimension meat beings, but have trouble expressing that or even understanding it themselves due to being partially incomprehensible greater beings. These ones are written far too human for them to not be reasonably held accountable.

They're bad because nothing they do actually aligns with any possible avenue for them actually being benevolent in any reasonable way, shape or form. They're too human in how they act and are written to reasonably be held to Blue and Orange morality, so that's not an option either. Lumia is the only one we've met with any reasonably redeeming qualities of any sort, and she's still complacent in the same negligence that all are damnable for.

---

Just wanted to focus on the seven morality topic here rather then the grimdark thing as a whole, because I'm slightly afraid I'd end up writing a short novel of ramblings then. One topic at a time for everyone's sake.

Apologies again to all poor souls who popped open them spoilers and unleashed the text block.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Lore discussion? I'm in.

The Seven say they learned empathy from eating mortal souls? Snake also heavily implies that at least some of them believe that there's no afterlife, or that if your souls(or Ki, or both, it's some spiritual aspect that they do not specify which) gets screwed with enough it dissipates and you are gone after death.

So yeah eating souls isn't really something that usually falls into the "good" spectrum of typical deity behavior but I'm not quoting this point for that reason. What I want to pay attention to here is the bit about The Seven gaining empathy and how they did it. Mortal souls. Without going into specifics of race mortal creatures are all a mix of good and bad. Its difficult, if not downright impossible, to point to any single one being in existence and declare them absolutely good or absolutely evil. Now just keep that in mind for a bit and meet me down below in the next quote.

They're bad because nothing they do actually aligns with any possible avenue for them actually being benevolent in any reasonable way, shape or form. They're too human in how they act and are written to reasonably be held to Blue and Orange morality, so that's not an option either. Lumia is the only one we've met with any reasonably redeeming qualities of any sort, and she's still complacent in the same negligence that all are damnable for.

I'll be addressing a few bits from this quote here but first pay attention to the section I put in bold. Doesn't it make sense that the so called living gods act as humans do if they gained their empathy and emotions from consuming the souls of mortals? By all accounts from the lore the power of a soul, or multiple souls, is a significant thing that's not to be treated lightly. It'd be like if you sat down and chugged a bunch of raw succubus milk. You'd certainly gain some benefits from it but you'd also obviously end up with a bunch of corruption in the process. Its almost like mortal souls are transformative items for the wraiths, makes you think huh?

Putting the rest of my thoughts in a spoiler as an attempt to not word wall.

Spoiler

The second point I want to make in regards to the bit I quoted above has to do with the allegation that The Seven do nothing that aligns with being benevolent. So the first thing I can think of is a major example; During the winter palace encounter with Kasyrra on her romance path Lumia literally descends to fight the Abyssal Thing and stops it before it can (presumably) genocide everyone everywhere. To me that demonstrates that at least on some level if things reach a point where all hope is lost The Seven aren't just going to sit back and ignore it. The second example isn't as major but its still benevolent enough to warrant mentioning; Keros didn't have to free Kiyoko and your kits from the astral plane. He could have just done nothing in that situation and ignored it all. He also could have pulled a total trickster move and only free Kiyoko because you didn't say anything about the two dozen some odd kits that were also in there. Plus he gives your whole fox-family a brand new house on top of all that. Part of me considers this a bit nit-picky because I think I understand the core point Antler is driving at but I don't think these specific acts that I mentioned can be interpreted as anything besides benevolent.

My final thoughts is that the gods are behaving exactly as I'd expect them to. They're not ignorant of the fact that shit is about to hit the fan but at the same time they're also a bit arrogant from their supposed divinity that they're not taking things seriously. At least not in any way that we as the players have been able to perceive as of yet. From their perspective mortals are still lesser creatures and unless a world shattering event is going to happen they don't feel like its their problem, they'll just let their faithful followers take care of all the issues instead. I mean why fix things yourself when some idiot with an out of control libido can show up and do everything for you in return for some nice booba and head pats?

 

[cloer]

Because the evil choices are usually terrible, rarely gives you a a good enough selfish/selfserving reason to do so, and do not fulfill the fantasy of being a "bad guy". Even the most positive examples such as Fallout fail on that front ala legion. And ME is one of the worst examples I have seen but I do not have time to dive deep into that mess.

The complicated thing about "smart evil" is that in the process of making decisions that are not only self-serving but also beneficial in the long term and not shooting yourself in the foot, it gets continuously easier to be seen as "not so bad", "legitimated in their actions" and even "actually right".

I mean, take the Empire from Star Wars. They did a lot of terrible, evil stuff, but in the end a majority of those not directly affected by them couldn't care less as they went on about their daily life, while there was also a sizeable portion of the population that were outright fine with it, even appreciated things like the perceived order they brought.