Wraiths and existential terror

[GrinningMadhatter]

Well yeah, spoilers.




Ignoring the very real horror of soul/flesh devouring monsters that are lurking at the fringes of reality, that are by the events of the winter city seeming to be very eager to get their foot in the door once again, so to say (which makes me wonder if Mareth is getting slapped with a 2nd, different kind of soul sucking apocalypse that's a lot less sexy) Keros and Mallach fill me with terror.

The terrible truth of the conclave of mirrors being that the current 'gods' achieved apotheosis by wraiths devouring enough souls is a tad unsettling. What it certainly did was make me extremely wary when Keros decided to bargain for your soul to become a kitsune in an analogy that i'm not quite sure is meant to have such awful implications. Of course i'm talking about the cups- as in, where he compares the body and soul to a cup full of water. The water, representing the soul, is removed from the vessel, and you the vessel remain intact. Except he does this by drinking it.

The ex body and soul devouring horror from beyond reality seems to be casually implying you'd be a refreshing beverage.

Keros draws attention to the cup remaining intact, and this feels almost like a sleight of hand. He is being perfectly honest with you, he just doesn't stress this pretty distressing aspect. But hey, no harm no foul if you just get to tap into the communal kitsune soul instead i guess.

Then i spoke to River.

River's alter ego reveal is certainly something.

Because River is a haemonculi (I think i'm getting that right) and doesn't really have his own soul, just kind of gets a loaner from Mallach... Like all the Kitsune, and the deal Keros is offering you. It's fine for the most part, River is mostly their own person, though maybe kinda sloppily frankensteined from a bunch of previous iterations -which is quietly horrible in it's own right- though still themselves. Except for Mallach peaking out of his eyes, subtly guiding him to certain ends... Does this apply to all Kitsune too? That's ermmm... Yeah fuck i think imma take a break from coc2 for a bit.

 

[Ireyon]

I'm honestly not sure how horrific the seven are supposed to be. Them eating souls isn't quite like normal beings eating food since you don't gain the properties of an apple when you eat lots of them. Wraiths seem to be the "You literally are what you eat!" variety of soul devouring horros. Then there is the question what they eat now that they're (probably?) no longer eating souls willy nilly.

What confuses me is that they're very set on being worshipped, even if only passively. Lumia offering to save the boreal eleves in return for worshipping her is one such case.

Then I wondered if the seven are just using an extremely advanced version of the kitsune life drain on their followers. Only take a tiny bit that recovers by itself but since there's so many people these individual sparks of life force add up to give them god-like powers. Which also explains why they're interested in keeping the other wraiths away: Either they don't want to share or they're afraid the other wraiths will devour everything due to their uncontrollable gluttony. Or both.

As for if they're brainwashing their followers or influencing them somehow... I honestly don't think they do, at least not more than a normal mortal king manipulates his citizens. There's no point since they already pretty much rule the world anyway.

I'm not even sure they're still mortal in the conventional sense, if wraiths ever were.

 

[GrinningMadhatter]

Them eating souls isn't quite like normal beings eating food since you don't gain the properties of an apple when you eat lots of them.

Eerily similar to the PC when it comes to gaining traits of what you eat. Suddenly very glad cannibalism isn't on the table because the whole apotheosis by murder was mentioned by Keros to be something that's certainly off the table.

What confuses me is that they're very set on being worshipped, even if only passively. Lumia offering to save the boreal eleves in return for worshipping her is one such case.

Yeah that's pretty mysterious now that i think about it. Especially because the Wyld was actually some kind of native god-thing that's dying because of Lumia usurping the elf worship.

Some kind of nightmare blend of lifedrain and haemonculi is seeming disturbingly more likely.

 

[The Observer]

A small addendum:

River, by the definition of his existence, can't be influenced or controlled by his creator. The entire point of the exercise is to have a source for authentically and truly experiencing the lives and passions of people -- divesting him of his free will and influencing his choices as a human being (you know what I mean) defeats the point of that.

 

[Karamaru]

Does this mean the seven get by feeding of blind faith and worship alone then?

 

[The Observer]

 

[GrinningMadhatter]

A small addendum:

River, by the definition of his existence, can't be influenced or controlled by his creator. The entire point of the exercise is to have a source for authentically and truly experiencing the lives and passions of people -- divesting him of his free will and influencing his choices as a human being (you know what I mean) defeats the point of that.

Ah ty, it's a bit weird where the line is drawn between River/Mallach considering he just casually dips into reality

 

[Karamaru]

 

[Savin]

I'm honestly not sure how horrific the seven are supposed to be

I wouldn't say horrific so much as deeply concerning. There's definitely an intentional parallel being drawn between them and Kas.

 

[Ireyon]

I wouldn't say horrific so much as deeply concerning. There's definitely an intentional parallel being drawn between them and Kas.

Note to self: Floofy tail is nice, but read the fine print before purchasing.

 

[GrinningMadhatter]

I mean i guess it makes good character building to know this and still contemplate it, but the fridge horror is real. Also i wonder if the cup of water thing was intentional, and whether the keros offer or the conclave was written first.

 

[Karamaru]

Note to self: Floofy tail is nice, but read the fine print before purchasing.

Or if Keros suddenly shows up and says "your free trial to your floofyness has expired time to pay up."

 

[Necros]

When i learned that "gods" are inter dimensional parasites during the convocation bit, i immediately started hoping we could to get rid of them at some point. I simply don't trust that predators like them suddenly changed with no reason.

 

[Malpha]

You cannot. This isn't Final Fantasy.

 

[TheShepard256]

I simply don't trust that predators like them suddenly changed with no reason.

They didn't change for no reason; they grew a conscience and emotions after eating either too many souls, or a few sufficiently powerful souls (it's unclear even in-universe which one was the case).

 

[zagzig]

The main thing for me is that deities seem ludicrously out of our ability to do something about. Yeah, the seven main deities of the realm are actually reformed(?) soulsucking parasites. What exactly are you going to do about that? Song of Splendour works great when resolve-nuking centaurs in Harvest Valley but I don't think you're going to have Lumia quaking with uncontrollable lust after a song and dance. They exist, they seem like they're doing the job, and either way we can't touch them.

That being said, the Seven seem unable to stop Kasyrra so maybe we could take them. Seriously guys, is it that you don't know where she is? She's in Khor'minos. Go get her, scry-and-die style.

 

[Necros]

You cannot. This isn't Final Fantasy.

Yeah, i know. I just want to.

 

[Shizenhakai]

The main thing for me is that deities seem ludicrously out of our ability to do something about. Yeah, the seven main deities of the realm are actually reformed(?) soulsucking parasites. What exactly are you going to do about that? Song of Splendour works great when resolve-nuking centaurs in Harvest Valley but I don't think you're going to have Lumia quaking with uncontrollable lust after a song and dance. They exist, they seem like they're doing the job, and either way we can't touch them.

That being said, the Seven seem unable to stop Kasyrra so maybe we could take them. Seriously guys, is it that you don't know where she is? She's in Khor'minos. Go get her, scry-and-die style.

Well, I think a level 1 character could defeat them.
Mostly because I think the attempt could cause laughter - just keep doing it and they eventually die from laughter. =)

What worries me are the metaphysical aspects, which are -and probably will remain- unanswered.
We do not know if their nature did change and they became quasi-deities, or if they *are* still abominations.
We do not even know what abominations actually are. Where do they come from? Why are they what they are?

Are abominations the "true" demons and what we know of demons are just extremly corrupted people?
If abominations can "grow" a soul or a concious, can demons be redeemed even without their original soul?

 

[Savin]

the Seven seem unable to stop Kasyrra

Unwilling =! Unable. The Seven prefer to work through proxies (Astrida-manders, Valkyries, Rivers, various paladins like Liaden or Sanders) than take direct action themselves.

Lumia gives Kas the stinkeye in person but she doesn't take the opportunity to just sunbeam her then and there.

can demons be redeemed even without their original soul?

See "Lethice Redeemed" ending for CoC1.

 

[Shizenhakai]

See "Lethice Redeemed" ending for CoC1.

Gotta admit, I just managed that ending once and I forgot about it again.
I probably should replay that one before wondering about the soul aspect.

Mhm, since that is the canon ending for CoC2, everything that is implied in that ending could also contain hints for some questions.

 

[GrinningMadhatter]

I mean for the big 7 they just probably see Kas as an amusing pest to throw champions at for entertainment, prestige and fascination at all the weird soul stuff going on. Winter city may have crossed the line, but it certainly seems the 7 are confident enough in their power they either think Kas isn't a real threat, or just don't realise the threat they represent. If the winter city doesn't spook them, i imagine the possible keros/'other trickster god i forget the name of' showdown will wake them up to the very real danger the portals Kas opens represent, through rogue gods, potential wraith incursions and the industrialized war/corruption machine the demons used to just trash the previous world.

 

[Shizenhakai]

Kas is no danger to them at the moment.
If you do Winter City while being friendly with her, she joins you for a fight with an abomination, forgot the exact name.
Kas can do absolutly nothing against that beast, Lumia comes in and destroys it.

That whole mess shows you the difference in strength between the champion and Kas, as well as the massive gulf between both of them and one of the living gods.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Probably a good thing they aren't directly involved. The seven seem like the type to accidentally cause a lot of collateral. Like a Zack Snyder movie. Plus, judging from Mallach's dialogue, they know they're dangerous and if they involve themselves then shit's gone sideways in the worst way. The way I see it, Kas is like the devil while the seven are Lovecraftian monsters in very palatable form. The Abyssal Thing was probably a wraith similar to what the seven previously were.

I think of the seven as being like the seven deities in Asura's Wrath (fun game, great world building. Shit audio mixing though. Had to play with subtitles and it was more movie with QTE's than game.). In that game, the worship and prayers created tangible power that the deities and Asura could use to strengthen themselves. Nareva said they developed emotions, not that they completely stopped being wraiths. So worship may take a small, unnoticeable amount of soul to fuel themselves. They can feed and protect the world. A symbiotic relationship, even if it is built on lies and sex appeal.

I still think they want the player's soul for more power and to have a champion spread their name, even if just by looking like their badass champion.

 

[Karamaru]

I think you hit the nail on the head there it seems they are so intrinsically linked to the world and reality that it's probably impossible to "beat" them in any conventional means, but that doesn't mean they are infallible they are a mortals interpretation of divinity after all so they posses all the weaknesses of mortals and their emotions they can be manipulated and out smarted.

I am more worried that the original seven will show and see what's happening here and go "nope" and wipe it all out to start over again.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

I think you hit the nail on the head there it seems they are so intrinsically linked to the world and reality that it's probably impossible to "beat" them in any conventional means, but that doesn't mean they are infallible they are a mortals interpretation of divinity after all so they posses all the weaknesses of mortals and their emotions they can be manipulated and out smarted.

Yeah if the Abyssal Thing is anything to go by, fighting them head-on would be the second dumbest thing in the game (the first is attacking the person who keeps kicking your ass. Looking at you harpy thieves.), but the convocation quest demonstrates the second part quite well. In the dialogue battle with Nareva and afterwards she seems less like some super rational god, and more like a lonely woman who deeply regrets her past actions. Part of me wonders if her slip ups where just proof that she's not infallible, or if a part of her wanted someone to find out and know the real her. Her really emotional thinking goes against her "portfolio".

I am more worried that the original seven will show and see what's happening here and go "nope" and wipe it all out to start over again.

That's assuming the original seven ever existed in the first place. All we have are old stories and the kitsune's creation story. But what proves those? The Keros we know isn't a kitsune like the others and can't even have kids. We really have nothing to go on besides them being worshipped before the ones we know showed up. They could easily just have been some creation myth or stories of famous people that got blown way out of proportion. I think my bias is showing though .

 

[Karamaru]

That's assuming the original seven ever existed in the first place. All we have are old stories and the kitsune's creation story. But what proves those? The Keros we know isn't a kitsune like the others and can't even have kids. We really have nothing to go on besides them being worshipped before the ones we know showed up. They could easily just have been some creation myth or stories of famous people that got blown way out of proportion. I think my bias is showing though .

This is true we have no proof of them ever existing and it will probably also mean that others might also deify the Champion in the future through stories and legends of a person who slew a Demon lord and went on to do many more things.

Also, I can't help notice the similarities between the ancient hero Belhar and the Champion I don't know if this was intentional or not.

 

[WolframL]

Per The Observer's comment here, there is evidence presented in the story that the Seven existed in some form prior to the Godswar (like the kitsune oversoul which was already there) but that it's not something that's going to play a big role in the game because an 'old gods return' plotline would be scope creep on a massive scale.

 

[Mad Dog]

Are the Seven all on the same level of power? Did they all come to power at roughly the same time?

I'd assume the answer to both of these questions would be yes. Otherwise nothing would stop a more powerful god from "eating" a weaker one or a newly born one.

And since demons, like wraiths, also eat souls. How many souls would Kas have to eat before she becomes a demon god?

 

[GrinningMadhatter]

Are the Seven all on the same level of power? Did they all come to power at roughly the same time?

I'd assume the answer to both of these questions would be yes. Otherwise nothing would stop a more powerful god from "eating" a weaker one or a newly born one.

And since demons, like wraiths, also eat souls. How many souls would Kas have to eat before she becomes a demon god?

I think the weird thing about the 7 is that they do have souls i think, just that it's a supercluster of the souls they devoured before it coalesced into sentience ie you are what you eat. In this i'm pretty sure wraiths and demons are fundamentally different considering demons lost their souls compared to wraiths just never having souls in the first place. Because i like cup metaphors now, think of it like a wraith as an empty cup, which can be filled through mass murder, and a demon as a cup with the bottom removed. Demons didn't defeat gods in a straight up fight after all, they just poisoned the land and corrupted all the worshipers instead.

 

[WolframL]

I think the weird thing about the 7 is that they do have souls i think, just that it's a supercluster of the souls they devoured before it coalesced into sentience ie you are what you eat.

Savin actually just brought this up today in a different topic and he said they don't have souls.