Wraiths and existential terror

[Stupid_Goo]

In smut games, you tend to become the things you eat - on a physical level.

I don't think eating something intangible but still existing will ever give you it, so eating souls would never give you one - why else would they be asking you for yours in exchange for their powers?
Because I bet it'd taste real good when you die.

 

[SomeNobody]

Didn't the gods in CoC1 lose to enough demons? Why the power creep in the sequel regarding the wraiths in the gaps between worlds and the overpowered wraiths pretending to be gods.
All the talk of "This game isn't a power fantasy" when the power fantasy is more the new world setting compared to the previous one.

 

[GrinningMadhatter]

Savin actually just brought this up today in a different topic and he said they don't have souls.

I mean it's "no soul of their own" which is kind of weird phrasing, and still fits with the fact that 7 just kinda pinched their souls. They do have souls, it just isn't strictly theirs kind of. Also River/Mallach literally bring up that it's Mallach's 'soul' that's keeping em around. I mean Keros had kids, actual trackable descendants so there's clearly something different going on to demons.

Didn't the gods in CoC1 lose to enough demons? Why the power creep in the sequel regarding the wraiths in the gaps between worlds and the overpowered wraiths pretending to be gods.
All the talk of "This game isn't a power fantasy" when the power fantasy is more the new world setting compared to the previous one.

I mean demons never really straight up fought the gods. The factory dumping corruption into the lake god is a good example of how they pulled it off through passive corruption and just kind of grinding everybody down. The big difference between coc1 and coc2 is that coc1 is basically a post apocalypse world, whereas coc2's world had already survived theirs and is in a pretty decent state at the time of the game- the apocalypse is only maybe starting.

 

[Shmebulock]

All the talk of "This game isn't a power fantasy" when the power fantasy is more the new world setting compared to the previous one.

No no, y'see, there's some slight nuance to be made here.

Champs is powerful and you can fantasize about swinging that power like the 18' prick you have. However, the game does not indulge in this particular feeling and, where you to play in some sort of Ironman mode, I'd wager your character would eat a healthy measure of humble pie... and perhaps other, more veiny things.

Sure, you can say that a self-made soul like Champs, a consummated diplomat and adventurer, able to master every single form of combat in existence, with an unparalleled (and hereditary) knack for learning, who is also infused with a metric fuckton of raw Warp energy, would be the definition of a power fantasy protagonist... but the game doesn't emphasize that particular aspect, no. What it does is shower you with...

Love... LOVE!

You fool! You thought the fantasy lays in your might, when in reality it's the sheer amount of love you receive. Be it pure and innocent, animalistic and lust-fueled, possessive and domineering, or servile and adoring, you are showered with love, from the humble girl at the nursery home to the nigh invincible demon that threatens the world. No being other than Champion would know what is to have such a degree of companionship, affection, and warmth.


Then again, I do play my Champ as if all the aforementioned love was his just due and the world ought to bend both knees and open wide for him, or else face fire & fury... but y'know, devs intend one thing, then players go in a different direction.

 

[Savin]

Love... LOVE!

It's true, the ultimate power fantasy that all porn indulges in by default is that everybody wants to jump on your dick/pump your holes for no real reason most of the time.

 

[Squirrelwagon]

I mean Keros had kids, actual trackable descendants so there's clearly something different going on to demons.

The previous Keros had kids (if he really existed, which is as of yet unconfirmed from what I gather); the current Keros did not. Remember, the Kitsune existed long before the Godswar happened, and the Keros we meet in-game only came into being during said war.

That said, I do still agree there are differences between demons and wraiths, though I don't know about what the specifics are, just that they give a different vibe.

 

[Karamaru]

That said, I do still agree there are differences between demons and wraiths, though I don't know about what the specifics are, just that they give a different vibe.

Though it seems the wraiths take on aspects of the souls, they devour and demons seem to just get more powerful as they devour souls/lethicite I could be wrong about this there are still too many unknowns.

 

[Paradox01]

It's true, the ultimate power fantasy that all porn indulges in by default is that everybody wants to jump on your dick/pump your holes for no real reason most of the time.

I have yet to have someone delivering my pizza accept my dick as a means of payment.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Yeah that's pretty mysterious now that i think about it. Especially because the Wyld was actually some kind of native god-thing that's dying because of Lumia usurping the elf worship.

The dialogue surrounding that rather strongly implies (may even say) that the Old Wyld isn't dying because Lumia is now the one being worshiped. Rather, it's dying because it's just really old. It's the Old Wyld, and it's thinking about heading to the retirement home while these new gods take care of everything.

That being said, the Seven seem unable to stop Kasyrra so maybe we could take them. Seriously guys, is it that you don't know where she is? She's in Khor'minos. Go get her, scry-and-die style.

As has been said, the gods could probably annihilate Kassyra by lightly blowing on her. There's roughly three whole power scales of difference between Kass and Lumia, and while admittedly we don't know the power difference between all the Seven (plus Lumia is apparently the most widely worshiped of the Seven), I'd expect that the others are at least on the tier where they could take on the creature that appeared in Kas's portal.

 

[Shizenhakai]

The dialogue surrounding that rather strongly implies (may even say) that the Old Wyld isn't dying because Lumia is now the one being worshiped. Rather, it's dying because it's just really old. It's the Old Wyld, and it's thinking about heading to the retirement home while these new gods take care of everything.

They accept their death because they are old and want to make room for something new.
The cause of their demise are the Kitsunes. Their tree and nature is poison for the old wyld and for all their attempts, they can not really co-exist with it.
But the Wyld accepts this and is willing to fade away, ordering their followers to abondon their pride and tradition and become part of their bretheren once again.

 

[zagzig]

They accept their death because they are old and want to make room for something new.
The cause of their demise are the Kitsunes. Their tree and nature is poison for the old wyld and for all their attempts, they can not really co-exist with it.
But the Wyld accepts this and is willing to fade away, ordering their followers to abondon their pride and tradition and become part of their bretheren once again.

What's the source on this? I thought that the main cause of death for the Old Wyld was some combination of the actions the wraiths took to poison the Old Wyld during the Godswar and the Old Wyld's worship stream drying up. The Kitsune were more just moving into their corpse like a parasitic hermit crab.

 

[Karamaru]

What's the source on this? I thought that the main cause of death for the Old Wyld was some combination of the actions the wraiths took to poison the Old Wyld during the Godswar and the Old Wyld's worship stream drying up. The Kitsune were more just moving into their corpse like a parasitic hermit crab.

I don't think I've read that the wraiths were responsible but I could be wrong other than what I know is that some of the forest spirits reject the Kitsunes attempts to placate them because of their alien nature and the forest spirits feels some loyalty towards the druids and elves that called the forest home.

 

[Cerneu]

They didn't change for no reason; they grew a conscience and emotions after eating either too many souls, or a few sufficiently powerful souls (it's unclear even in-universe which one was the case).

They grew a conscience and emotions, sure. But they still seem to have kept their wraith-like obsession with acquiring souls and behaving like "polite" emotional vampires.. The more Keros kept talking about how it's totally fine for the MC to hand over their soul, the less I trusted him. Coz if souls are really useless and the MC won't miss it, then maybe don't make a big deal out of wanting to get your hands on it.

Right now I guess main goal of the Seven pretenders is to expand the number of their worshipers (like every religion, duh), but what will happen once everyone in the world follows one of them? Will they start fighting each other to get the other wraiths followers/souls? Just to keep things interesting and to avoid boredom?

What I'm saying is that this charade will not last forever, and will eventually end in lots of tears and dead bodies. It might not happen during the PC's lifetime, but one day there will come other people who'll figure out the truth too. Even something as simple as advancements in technology and magic will make it harder to hide their wraith secret.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

They grew a conscience and emotions, sure. But they still seem to have kept their wraith-like obsession with acquiring souls and behaving like "polite" emotional vampires.. The more Keros kept talking about how it's totally fine for the MC to hand over their soul, the less I trusted him. Coz if souls are really useless and the MC won't miss it, then maybe don't make a big deal out of wanting to get your hands on it.

Not sure if Keros is a good measure for the rest. He's the god of trickery and dickbagery so everything he says has to be scrutinized even if he wasn't a wraith. I think what he means is that by making you his champion, you'll receive the benefits of your portal soul just without being susceptible to TF's. So basically, he's asking us to share the wealth.

What I'm saying is that this charade will not last forever, and will eventually end in lots of tears and dead bodies. It might not happen during the PC's lifetime, but one day there will come other people who'll figure out the truth too. Even something as simple as advancements in technology and magic will make it harder to hide their wraith secret.

Unfortunately, I think you're right. The seven may be extremely powerful but I doubt that'll stop the angry masses. I don't think they're evil, but most won't see that. They'll see that ancient monsters that fucked everyone up are now masquerading as their gods and holding authority over mortals. Hell, religious wars both irl and in other games have been started over less. Though I wonder how many may side with the seven purely because they find them fuckable.

 

[Cerneu]

They'll see that ancient monsters that fucked everyone up are now masquerading as their gods and holding authority over mortals.

Nice avatar.

I would love if the end game quest allowed the MC to go full Edelgard on the so-called Seven.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Nice avatar.

I would love if the end game quest allowed the MC to go full Edelgard on the so-called Seven.

Oh that'd be fun. But alas, fighting the seven has been deconfirmed. And I shame my avatar by simping for the sexy slithering snake who never left her goth phase.

 

[Tide Hunter]

I would love if the end game quest allowed the MC to go full Edelgard on the so-called Seven.

Even if it had not been confirmed that we won't get to fight the Seven, that still likely wouldn't happen, since, well...

Spoiler: Winter City Kassyra Path

If you're on the Kas Romance path on Winter City, then when Kassyra opens the portal, a giant eldritch void monster appears. You and Kassyra join together to fight it, but it's so strong that neither of you can even do damage to it. Whether you get beaten or just survive for a few rounds, the encounter ends with Lumia smashing in through the ceiling and hurling the eldritch monster into a nearby mountain and flying after to go beat it up, away from civilization.

Basically, the gods are orders of magnitude above Kassyra, and Kassyra is the big bad boss, the defeat of whom is the end of this game.

 

[Animalistic]

OK, so then why do they not get rid of her themselves? Was that ever explained? How is she going to win this? Because we know she can because of couple of her bad endings show as much.

 

[SomeNobody]

Even if it had not been confirmed that we won't get to fight the Seven, that still likely wouldn't happen, since, well...

Spoiler: Winter City Kassyra Path

If you're on the Kas Romance path on Winter City, then when Kassyra opens the portal, a giant eldritch void monster appears. You and Kassyra join together to fight it, but it's so strong that neither of you can even do damage to it. Whether you get beaten or just survive for a few rounds, the encounter ends with Lumia smashing in through the ceiling and hurling the eldritch monster into a nearby mountain and flying after to go beat it up, away from civilization.

Basically, the gods are orders of magnitude above Kassyra, and Kassyra is the big bad boss, the defeat of whom is the end of this game.

There's ways of defeating things that don't involve beating them in a boss battle like this was Final Fantasy. People in this very thread put forth that as how the actual gods over in the world of CoC1 were defeated by the demons.

If one found a way through major world-shaking ritual or some such to do away with Wraiths it would likely work on the pretender gods too.
Would be somewhat interesting if it was a modified form of something the New Seven developed with their followers to aid them against the incursion of Wraiths during the Godswar and then forgot about, in their 'penance' that they would have involuntarily developed the means of their own execution.

 

[Savin]

OK, so then why do they not get rid of her themselves?

This will probably be answered directly in-game next month sometime. Though it'll be something of an easter egg.

 

[Cerneu]

There's ways of defeating things that don't involve beating them in a boss battle like this was Final Fantasy. People in this very thread put forth that as how the actual gods over in the world of CoC1 were defeated by the demons.

Pretty much. In fact, we already defeated the so-called "goddess of secrets" at her own game when we got her to spit out the truth about the Convocation of Mirrors. Sure, we can't talk about it to anyone who also doesn't know the truth, but isn't that implying that there are other people who also know about the truth? Would be interesting to meet them one day.

Now, I think it's becoming obvious to me that the Seven Imposters have two reasons why to hide their wraith origin.

First reasons, of course, is that the truth would cause immense upheaval and chaos, with the whole world thrown into another cataclysmic war. How considerate... if we ignore that this could have been avoided had they tried to stop meddling with mortals once the Godswar was won. But alas, they'd rather keep being "Living" gods, and now we're left with a ticking time bomb. So yeah, this charade is doomed to end in the future, with terrible results for everyone. Coz what could they even do to forestall it? Intentionally sabotage technological progress in order to keep their secret? Didn't work for Rhea in FE3H, lmao.

The other reason, I think, is because they know that the truth about them being wraiths is also their single biggest weakness. The Godswar was won thanks to the nations of the world receiving powers and weapons from the gods (actually wraiths) that were able to defeat wraiths. Which means any smart-ass sorcerer in the world could start searching for leftover anti-wraith artifacts which he could then turn against the Seven Wraiths. In fact, I think that during the "Getting Into The Closet" quest we do get close to one such artifact, that was originally used to imprison wraiths, and which can be used on Kassyra too.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Now that you mention it, I wonder if wraiths could be used for enchanting or being sealed inside weapons and have their power exploited. Like Gig from Soul Nomad and the World Eater. BFF Empire for life.

 

[WolframL]

I'm pretty sure that 'Let's seal the godlike entity in a weapon/use them as a power source' is a plot that can only end Badly for all involved.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

I'm pretty sure that 'Let's seal the godlike entity in a weapon/use them as a power source' is a plot that can only end Badly for all involved.

Nonsense. I can't think of any way it could fail. How else am supposed to cosplay as Ragna?

I mean more like wraiths in general though and not specifically their apes members. I doubt a cool sword could hold the seven for long.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Pretty much. In fact, we already defeated the so-called "goddess of secrets" at her own game when we got her to spit out the truth about the Convocation of Mirrors. Sure, we can't talk about it to anyone who also doesn't know the truth, but isn't that implying that there are other people who also know about the truth? Would be interesting to meet them one day.

We "defeated" her the same way that you defeat someone in chess. She could have, at any time, just said "I refuse to tell you" and yeeted us out of the dream but she instead humored us and answered our questions. It was a battle of wits, and we only learned what she let us while trying to make an elaborate lie. The only reason why we could even engage with her on that level is because she restricted herself, and there were rules set up such that she would have to admit if what we said is true.

The other reason, I think, is because they know that the truth about them being wraiths is also their single biggest weakness. The Godswar was won thanks to the nations of the world receiving powers and weapons from the gods (actually wraiths) that were able to defeat wraiths. Which means any smart-ass sorcerer in the world could start searching for leftover anti-wraith artifacts which he could then turn against the Seven Wraiths. In fact, I think that during the "Getting Into The Closet" quest we do get close to one such artifact, that was originally used to imprison wraiths, and which can be used on Kassyra too.

The relic works specifically on the target being soulless. That's why it works on demons. It could, hypothetically, work on the Seven since they don't have "souls of their own," but we don't quite know how they get stuck in the artifact. The champ getting put in happens off-screen, so to say, and we only know that Tollus entered the prism with Kassyra when bringing her in. And even then that's a bad end, so we can't know any of the mechanics behind the prism. And since the Seven have immense levels of power, to the point what Mallach seems to freeze time when you speak to him, and they seem to teleport wherever they want, whenever they want, not to mention having been the ones to create the anti-wraith tools, they likely have knowledge of what they do (preventing a surprise factor that could have been needed to effectively use something like the prism) and could potentially just counter any attempt to use the tools. Plus, if someone uses the stuff and succeeds on taking out one of the Seven, then the others may learn of it pretty quickly and treat them as a high-end threat to directly combat rather than underestimating them like Nareeva did. Also, how would we know that all the relics are in working condition? Sorra's Succor was an artifact from the Godswar too, but there seems to be no magical energy on it, and while that could be because it was never magical, it could also have had an enchantment fade or been damaged to the point that the magic left it.

 

[Savin]

I wonder if wraiths could be used for enchanting or being sealed inside weapons and have their power exploited

Yes.

And even then that's a bad end, so we can't know any of the mechanics behind the prism.

Please do note that Bad Ends =! Canon. We let them go off on their own little nonsense tangents but they don't necessarily reflect on the "real" game world; otherwise Kas has some very scatter-brained plans.

 

[WolframL]

otherwise Kas has some very scatter-brained plans.

It seems like most Kas-related Bad Ends feature her scattering the Champ's brain through the constant application of cum in massive quantities.

 

[Metronome]

I'm pretty sure that 'Let's seal the godlike entity in a weapon/use them as a power source' is a plot that can only end Badly for all involved.

I'd dare say it went pretty well for the Necrons from WH40K didn't it? :V

Yes.

Do I smell some endgame loot?

 

[Karamaru]

We "defeated" her the same way that you defeat someone in chess. She could have, at any time, just said "I refuse to tell you" and yeeted us out of the dream but she instead humored us and answered our questions. It was a battle of wits, and we only learned what she let us while trying to make an elaborate lie. The only reason why we could even engage with her on that level is because she restricted herself, and there were rules set up such that she would have to admit if what we said is true.

Not only that I'm not sure people would even believe the champion if they went around telling people the gods were fake also they kinda threaten you if you spill the beans.

There's ways of defeating things that don't involve beating them in a boss battle like this was Final Fantasy. People in this very thread put forth that as how the actual gods over in the world of CoC1 were defeated by the demons.

If one found a way through major world-shaking ritual or some such to do away with Wraiths it would likely work on the pretender gods too.
Would be somewhat interesting if it was a modified form of something the New Seven developed with their followers to aid them against the incursion of Wraiths during the Godswar and then forgot about, in their 'penance' that they would have involuntarily developed the means of their own execution.

Pretty much this a direct confrontation is probably going to end very badly for that person the only advantage mere mortals seem to have is that the seven are not omnipotent, powerful yes but not all knowing Keros says as much that they have been outplayed in the past which is why they don't take IOU's anymore.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Not only that I'm not sure people would even believe the champion if they went around telling people the gods were fake also they kinda threaten you if you spill the beans.

They definitely wouldn't believe us and the seven have no reason to corroborate that. Plus it'd probably do more harm than good, at least in the short run. Don't need a holy war while Kas is fucking around.

Pretty much this a direct confrontation is probably going to end very badly for that person the only advantage mere mortals seem to have is that the seven are not omnipotent, powerful yes but not all knowing Keros says as much that they have been outplayed in the past which is why they don't take IOU's anymore.

They may not be true gods, but there's no denying that they are powerful. They still have their own realms, Mallach at least has some control over time or he's secretly DIO, they can alter someone's physical body without using alchemy, and they were the apex of their species or at least something approaching apex. They are undeniably powerful. I doubt they made those anti wraith weapons to affect ones approaching their level and probably added flaws they know of to exploit. They're not stupid. And sealing them is probably extremely difficult and wouldn't be worth the trouble. If the abyssal thing is anything to go by, the seven can not be defeated in a straight up fight. Not without some extreme power backing their opponent up.

Do I smell some endgame loot?

I can think of a few ideas. A sword with a wraith sealed inside and used to power it up. Maybe seeing it looking back in the sword's reflection, the sword seemingly having a mind of its own and trying to devour its enemies and their souls. Lots of potential for it. Not even for endgame. Midgame would work too.