What are your gripes/criticism of TiTs?

QuietCoyote

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Aug 12, 2017
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Ship content is, in laymans terms, code for an entirely other game meant to integrate with TiTS coding.

The reason it's taking so long is because it's basically a new game within said old game, and no builds have been released with any ship content because either A: gedan wants to be sure it's stable on release, or B: it'll ship as a public patch
 
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Klaptrap

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Aug 27, 2015
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Meanwhile this game sinks or floats based on audience participation, so it's actually better to have a constant barrage of (relatively) small stuff than a whole new system that would requre at least several months of all hands on deck.
 

Foxxling

Scientist
Creator
Ship content is, in laymans terms, code for an entirely other game meant to integrate with TiTS coding.

The reason it's taking so long is because it's basically a new game within said old game, and no builds have been released with any ship content because either A: gedan wants to be sure it's stable on release, or B: it'll ship as a public patch

I'd say more like a new planet. There is a TITANIC amount of work but lets not overstate it. Geddy is working on the amount of work that for one person is a fuck ton but to say its an entirely new game feels wrong and I don't think FenCo would make Geddy do all that alone if it were the equivalent of a new game.

It's a new combat system, new ship hub system and new travel system that have to work in place of the place holder we have. Also ships are supposed to be customized too right?

Meanwhile this game sinks or floats based on audience participation, so it's actually better to have a constant barrage of (relatively) small stuff than a whole new system that would requre at least several months of all hands on deck.

we the people trust Fen Co even those of us (not me) whom are annoyed by the way they do things. They have proven themselvesto care about their work as well as their audience... so I don't think we have an issue with the way they do things even those of us who are desperate for more males.

Then again the community complains even when certain things are taken out of their hands like that incest thing.
 

QuietCoyote

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Aug 12, 2017
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I'd say more like a new planet. There is a TITANIC amount of work but lets not overstate it. Geddy is working on the amount of work that for one person is a fuck ton but to say its an entirely new game feels wrong and I don't think FenCo would make Geddy do all that alone if it were the equivalent of a new game.

It's a new combat system, new ship hub system and new travel system that have to work in place of the place holder we have. Also ships are supposed to be customized too right?



we the people trust Fen Co even those of us (not me) whom are annoyed by the way they do things. They have proven themselvesto care about their work as well as their audience... so I don't think we have an issue with the way they do things even those of us who are desperate for more males.

Then again the community complains even when certain things are taken out of their hands like that incest thing.

you're forgetting that the ship system is a new method of: storage assignment, crew assignment, space-based combat with multiple combatant roles, internalized room navigation, and customization not seen since THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME

don't try to undersell it as "just another planet" because the leap from current ship content to new ship content is the leap from horse carriages to automobiles
 

Evil

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Jul 18, 2017
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I have to agree, this is beyond a planet in terms of what it brings. I don't know the extent of what Ship Combat will involve, but off the top of my head, I would imagine the following would be key elements:
- Crew: Ships will obviously have limited space and so you're going to need to consider how to each crew member based on what slots are available. Ramis is a mercenary, but does that make her a better gunner than Reaha? Shekka is a natural engineer, but Syri is a former military engineer. Each one could have an effect on the ship and possibly on combat.
- The ships themselves: The Casstech and the Sidewinder are the first two of a possible fleet of ships that will be introduced into the game. Essentially, each new ship could be similar to a bare-bones character in terms of what they bring. Not to mention the classes of ships and what could be available, for example a freighter might have more storage space, but could be slower and less armed than a cruiser.
- Weapons: Again, its been reported that ships will be modular in that their weapons can be swapped out. Going to go for a wall of lasers? Torpedoes launchers? A mix thereof? What about countermeasures? And Shields? Who is going to sell them?
- The combat itself: Ship combat could be different than regular combat. After all, you can't achieve a Lust Win (unless there's going to be an option to flood the enemy computers with porn). Not to mention that there will probably be special actions, probably based on the ship or Steele and their crews abilities.
- Merchants: Who is going to provide these new ships and weapons and special technology? Will existing merchants be modified or will new ones be added? Will Steele just act like a privateer and just keep stealing ships from defeated enemies?
- Repairs: The ship is going to get damaged and unlike Steele who can have a nap if they have been hurt, the ship would probably have to go to a dry-dock or space station.
- Random encounters: That will have to be something that will happen more often as Steele travels between planets. Pirate raids, UGC blockades, space squid, who knows? But they're going to incorporate the new ships combat system.

The more I think about it, the more this feels like its going to be a game within the game.
 
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QuietCoyote

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Aug 12, 2017
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I have to agree, this is beyond a planet in terms of what it brings. I don't know the extent of what Ship Combat will involve, but off the top of my head, I would imagine the following would be key elements:
- Crew: Ships will obviously have limited space and so you're going to need to consider how to each crew member based on what slots are available. Ramis is a mercenary, but does that make her a better gunner than Reaha? Shekka is a natural engineer, but Syri is a former military engineer. Each one could have an effect on the ship and possibly on combat.
- The ships themselves: The Casstech and the Sidewinder are the first two of a possible fleet of ships that will be introduced into the game. Essentially, each new ship could be similar to a bare-bones character in terms of what they bring. Not to mention the classes of ships and what could be available, for example a freighter might have more storage space, but could be slower and less armed than a cruiser.
- Weapons: Again, its been reported that ships will be modular in that their weapons can be swapped out. Going to go for a wall of lasers? Torpedoes launchers? A mix thereof? What about countermeasures? And Shields? Who is going to sell them?
- The combat itself: Ship combat could be different than regular combat. After all, you can't achieve a Lust Win (unless there's going to be an option to flood the enemy computers with porn). Not to mention that there will probably be special actions, probably based on the ship or Steele and their crews abilities.
- Merchants: Who is going to provide these new ships and weapons and special technology? Will existing merchants be modified or will new ones be added? Will Steele just act like a privateer and just keep stealing ships from defeated enemies?
- Repairs: The ship is going to get damaged and unlike Steele who can have a nap if they have been hurt, the ship would probably have to go to a dry-dock or space station.
- Random encounters: That will have to be something that will happen more often as Steele travels between planets. Pirate raids, UGC blockades, space squid, who knows? But they're going to incorporate the new ships combat system.

The more I think about it, the more this feels like its going to be a game within the game.
and this is what irritates me about every single "where's ship content" forum post

they all moan about when it's coming without taking any consideration into how much there is within
 

Foxxling

Scientist
Creator
you're forgetting that the ship system is a new method of: storage assignment, crew assignment, space-based combat with multiple combatant roles, internalized room navigation, and customization not seen since THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME

don't try to undersell it as "just another planet" because the leap from current ship content to new ship content is the leap from horse carriages to automobiles

I wouldn't consider saying that the base ship systems are the size of a planet to be underselling anything. I say this because planets are huge undertakings with multiple moving parts and because I assume Gedan is working on creating the systems that ship content will use... not creating all ship content.

I could be naive, especially since I don't code, and I'm open to that but I also feel like FenCo wouldn't put making content equal to the rest of the game onto one person, especially Gedan who was instrumental in helping Fen improve his own coding skills back in the last days of CoC.

Wait... I just realized by "size of a game" you could mean the systems that will be the foundation of ship content are similar in size and complexity to the foundations of a whole game in and of itself. Which I would agree with.
 

Violent_Peace

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Sep 16, 2015
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The more I think about it, the more this feels like its going to be a game within the game.

Makes me wonder if the game could even handle ship content without crashing or bugging out, thinking about keeping the game not just stable and probably just checking bugs and typos is probably gonna be a bitch.
 

DJ_Arashi_Rora

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2017
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Good shit. I'm really glad people liked him, it's hard to make people give a shit about male chars (doubly so for taurs) in this game but I've gotten lots of love about him.

Ah, weird. I checked the code when I made that post and there wasn't any restriction on the anal scene but I didn't bother checking the rest. Could have been changed when Fen made him a boss recently.

I'm just sad that he's a one time encounter.
 

DJ_Arashi_Rora

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2017
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Hi! Long time lurker, first time poster. I apologize if this is overdone or inappropriate, I hope that I don't inadvertently cross a line, please let me know if I do. Feel free to ignore me if this is too heavy handed, and again, I really hope I'm not pushing any boundaries.

Riya really, really bothers me (I'm sorry Franks), in a way no other character does, she feels tonally inconsistent and as if she was designed to deliberately spite the player, insult their intelligence and their moral sensibilities. She feels at odds with the overall much more lighthearted or hopeful portrayals in the game, even when the game deals with heavier subject matter, there is a certain respect to it and a nice outlook, including well done, expressive ways to roleplay that allow you to help people and make the world a better place.

- She is explicitly racist, of course, on a massive multicultural space station where humans are a minority, she actively loathes, harass's, mocks, and discriminates against people, breaking ethical boundaries as an officer of the law, and causing many violations that are unacceptable for any officer in any circumstance.

- She sexually harasses people, including her commanding officer, who she explicitly mocks and objectifies when they react to her explicit abuse and bigotry.

- She harasses a young women chatting with her friends because of the way they speak.

- She readily threatens violence and confrontation with people over minor grievances (again, on a populated core space station home to millions if not billions of people).

- There seems to be a very thin line in her understanding of consent, she has no safeword, and doesn't seem to separate sexual play and consensual degradation from the way she treats people normally, actively sexually harassing people and being incredibly forceful, without setting boundaries before hand.

- The game actively mocks you for trying to do the right thing, and Officer Greene nonsensically tells you off for "shuttling her back and forth" despite the fact the only reason that occurred is due to atrociously corrupt management (borderline victim blaming). She justifies her consistent abuse and exploitation to numerous people due to her being a halfway competent police officer and soldier (doing her basic duty of protecting and rescuing people, which is not justification for the potential lives she can ruin), such constant abuse and harassment could cause mental illness and depression in young people who live on the station.

- If a Steele for some reason decides to have children with her, she actively attempts to teach her children to discriminate and hate people based on their race, and actively insults the mother of her children right in front of them.

- Despite her sole reason for being stationed being fulfilled, she is for some reason still not held accountable for the serious harm she causes, let alone the reason for her being stationed being flimsy justification, as the many other soldiers who worked on the mission did so without an active history of abuse.

- There seems to be an air of insulting people for objecting to this, doing a basic moral act as a decent citizen and human being is treated in the game as you being an idiot, I lost a lot of respect for Officer Greene when she justified sexual harassment and abuse.

- The player is given an extreme lack of agency and powerlessness, despite how serious an issue this actually is, and how this wouldn't be accepted even slightly during current day, let alone a sexually liberal and egalitarian society far into the future.

- As discussed previously on the forum, the concept of her "not actually being racist" and instead doing it to upset people (emotionally harass and abuse young people, potentially causing serious issues and repercussions in their life) is inherently no different to being a racist vile person.

I'm trying to think of other examples of such a serious nature in the game, but the most I can think of are people who are explicitly heinous criminals (who are treated as such). Most of the game, even fight scenes, are of a much more lighthearted tone, and almost always have explicit consent as well. I'm just really, really confused about how this is considered okay? There also seems to be quite a few plot holes and oversights via this being present in the world as it is.

I hopefully expressed myself decently and didn't upset anyone, I just really wanted to get this out of my system.

fuckin what? She's a racist bitch to the mother of her child?
 

Touchandgo

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Dec 11, 2018
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i think this is the first time (and only) time i've experienced a murderboner
As far as I can remember from that scene, she's actually really sweet to you and your children. I don't think she even made any derogatory statements about your kids or even you during that scene.

I know many people have strong feelings towards Riya (with a justifiable reason), but in this case I think it's an overreach.
 

DJ_Arashi_Rora

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Jul 19, 2017
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As far as I can remember from that scene, she's actually really sweet to you and your children. I don't think she even made any derogatory statements about your kids or even you during that scene.

I know many people have strong feelings towards Riya (with a justifiable reason), but in this case I think it's an overreach.

I don't know, I've yet to do her content due to her being not my cup of tea.
 

wallysquid93

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Feb 21, 2019
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Oof yea I hate Riya. Though she try's to be smug and confident after getting moved to Canadia I took pleasure that she was annoyed and then punched her in the face for good measure.
 
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DJ_Arashi_Rora

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Jul 19, 2017
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How so much content is locked behind steele’s Breasts,dick etc behind being a certain size or number,makes it hard to make Steele to my liking without missing out on content.

We don't have perks based on our racial traits but we do have great content locked due to similar restrictions.
 
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DJ_Arashi_Rora

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Jul 19, 2017
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That's one way of looking at it. The other way is a bunch of people blow up your ship, attack you, nearly kill/ kidnap you for no reason other than their own stupidity, try to molest you multiple times and insult you when you refuse to have sex with them unless you're a bimbo/ weak willed in which case you don't get a choice.

I'll be honest I really hate them and that the message keeps popping up and won't go away makes it worse.

Happens to a maxed will power Amazon, and the only good thing about them is the custom shock gear.
 

Stemwinder

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Jun 15, 2018
417
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The real question as far as ship content goes is why someone(s) hasn't been brought in to help with it considering Gedan is having both personal troubles and trouble doing the whole thing solo. The weakest link in the TiTS chain always seems to be project management. The backlog became a leviathan because there aren't enough people to keep up with it, no one seems to know what anyone else is doing, artwork often takes priority over things like getting new systems up and running and so on. These are solvable problems, it's just that no one seems to be working on them.
 
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Balaknightfang

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Aug 5, 2018
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The real question as far as ship content goes is why someone(s) hasn't been brought in to help with it considering Gedan is having both personal troubles and trouble doing the whole thing solo. The weakest link in the TiTS chain always seems to be project management. The backlog became a leviathan because there aren't enough people to keep up with it, no one seems to know what anyone else is doing, artwork often takes priority over things like getting new systems up and running and so on. These are solvable problems, it's just that no one seems to be working on them.

I'm going to take this one piece at a time, since I think that's the best way to really do this.

The real question as far as ship content goes is why someone(s) hasn't been brought in to help with it considering Gedan is having both personal troubles and trouble doing the whole thing solo.

You don't want more than one person working on something like this. People keep suggesting throwing more manpower at the problem will get this done faster, and that's really not how programming tends to work, especially when designing a system from the ground up. Gedan would have to completely train the person in what's been done, then explain how everything from there is supposed to work and so on and so forth. By the time the person is caught up, nothing has actually been achieved. Adding more people to the task will just cause more problems than it solves.

The weakest link in the TiTS chain always seems to be project management.

This is just incorrect. The weakest link is the fact that there's just not enough time for everyone to do what they would like to, and that's a constraint of space and time, not of failed management. If your argument was that the weakest link was the reviewing backlog because the only person who is qualified to do reviews at current is Fen, then you might have a point on this, but you're arguing project management, and I've gotten to see first hand that really, they do a pretty decent job of managing who's doing what.

The backlog became a leviathan because there aren't enough people to keep up with it

Since you didn't define backlog, I'm going to assume you mean the backlog of accepted but unimplemented projects. And in this case, technically, you're right. We have more writers than coders, and the coders are often working on some of the larger projects that need doing, so sometimes it takes time for things to get in. That's no fault of any form of management, that's just the way the volunteer work tends to end up, and the staff each do a wide number of roles (which is usually why they're staff). Plus the fact that coding takes time. It takes a lot of time, in fact.

no one seems to know what anyone else is doing

I have no idea where you got this idea, but it's just blatantly wrong. As someone who is the various coding and writer chats on the discord, I can attest firsthand to the fact that most of the people know what's everyone else is doing. Hell, most of the regulars in discord who aren't part of those chats usually know who's working on what because we discuss it frequently enough. There's also trello(s) dedicated to helping make sure things are being worked on and to manage the project.

artwork often takes priority over things like getting new systems up and running

Artwork isn't prioritized. It's its own separate beast from the rest of implemented content. It only seems like it's prioritized because we have a handful of artists who are on staff (Shou and Adj, for example) and a bunch of volunteers who will chip in art for characters they enjoy, or writers will, on occasion, commission art of their characters from other artists. There's no "oh, art is more important than systems" or anything of that sort going on.
 
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Helia

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May 8, 2017
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As far as I can remember from that scene, she's actually really sweet to you and your children. I don't think she even made any derogatory statements about your kids or even you during that scene.

I know many people have strong feelings towards Riya (with a justifiable reason), but in this case I think it's an overreach.

I don't want to cause issues, but I'll clarify. (It was a while ago, sorry again if I am pushing boundaries) It's not exactly overt, or anything that I would consider horrible beyond my general distaste for how the character is written and mechanically portrayed in game, but the lack of separation between consensual roleplay/raceplay and her genuine thoughts and feelings did rub me the wrong way.

From the Public Github:
  • msg += " Well, she looks beside herself with joy - that’s certainly surprising, considering. Is she really okay with siring a child on an ‘inferior’ species, you ask. Riya looks at you for a moment before the taunting grin you’re much more familiar with spreads over her features.";
    msg += "\n\n<i>“Why would I be unhappy, ";
    if(isDogMorph) msg += "slutpuppy";
    else if(isCatMorph) msg += "pussy";
    else msg += "xeno";
    msg += "? I am a generous and kind soul, after all. Why should I deny a lower life form like yourself the chance to improve your bloodline? I’m happy for you,”</i> she says, stepping forward, <i>“Your kid is going to be better than you by at least half.”</i>";
    msg += "\n\n<b>There’s</b> the Riya you know and can’t seem to get rid of.";
  • if(!isHuman) msg += " Wouldn’t surprise me, you always struck me as a smart one. For a xeno, at least.";
  • output("\n\nYou <b>are</b> a bit surprised by that. Is she really okay with the mother of her firstborn being a filthy xeno though, you ask?");
    output("\n\nShe laughs in response. <i>“I told you before, who am I to deny a");
    if(isDogMorph) output(" mutt");
    else if(isCatMorph) output(" pussycat");
    else output(" xeno");
    output(" the chance to improve their bloodline? Besides,”</i> she continues, eyes twinkling as a grin creases her face, <i>“the little tyke came out human. I guess I’ve got some really strong sperm, huh?”</i> she says, leaning over until your noses are brushing each other before continuing in a loud whisper. <i>“That or you’re just such a little bitch that even your eggs are submissive.”</i>");
  • output("<i>“Man, you must really like me.”</i> Riya quips as you sit next to her, the caramel woman’s arm sliding around your shoulders and pulling you tight against her. <i>“I guess you’re okay too.");
    if(!isHuman)
    {
    output(".. For a");
    if(isDogMorph) output(" talking dog");
    else if(isCatMorph) output(" talking cat");
    else output("n alien");
    output(".");
  • output(" Her free hand sets her fork down before moving under your chin. <i>“Because you’re a <b>good</b>");
    if(isDogMorph) output(" dog");
    else if(isCatMorph) output(" kitty");
    else output(" xeno");
    output(", aren’t you? You just want ol’ Riya to get rid of those nasty");
    if(isDogMorph) output(" mutt");
    else if(isCatMorph) output(" alleycat");
    else output(" xeno");
    output(" genes, don’t you? Who’s a good girl? Is it you? Yes it is!”</i> she coos while scratching you under the chin, clearly relishing your humiliation.");
  • "Riya is already in motion, snatching what appears to be a foam dart rifle off the floor and pressing it into " + babyName + "’s hands, kneeling beside " + (babym ? "him" : "her") + "."
    + "\n\n<i>“Alright, champ. Just like I taught you.”</i> she says, evil smile on her face. You barely have time to ask <b>what</b> exactly Riya has been teaching your child and how she snuck that rather intimidating dart rifle in here before " + babyName + " gives you a demonstration - hell breaks loose in the form of a worryingly accurate barrage of foam darts complete with realistic blasting noises, your child cackling gleefully" + (!isHuman ? " and shouting <i>“Smelly, dumb, xeno scum!”</i> repeatedly" : "") + ", " + (babym ? "his" : "her") + " happy squeals nearly drowned out by Riya’s uncontrollable, manic laughter."

To be absolutely fair, there is bunch there which is more loving/affectionate, but I definitely have issues with teaching a child to discriminate, and mocking the mother in front of them. And the boundary between roleplay and her genuine beliefs feels rather nonexistant (especially considering she treats everyone this way on a huge multicultural and multispecies space station thousands of years into the future).

Everything already seems to have been discussed, so I really hope I don't accidentally cause a page of debate, just wanted to clarify.
 

Stemwinder

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Jun 15, 2018
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You don't want more than one person working on something like this. People keep suggesting throwing more manpower at the problem will get this done faster, and that's really not how programming tends to work, especially when designing a system from the ground up. Gedan would have to completely train the person in what's been done, then explain how everything from there is supposed to work and so on and so forth. By the time the person is caught up, nothing has actually been achieved. Adding more people to the task will just cause more problems than it solves.
You're describing very basic realities of working with a team as if they're insurmountable obstacles. Getting someone(s) up to speed shouldn't take all that long if all the concepts have been drawn up and some of the framework built already. When the problem is "the main coder has very little time to work" then the solution, from a management standpoint, is for that coder to take on a leadership position and delegate the work that needs to be done to others after giving them an outline of what needs to be done and making sure the work they do is coordinated between everyone working on it. Doing any huge project solo is never an ideal solution and it's silly to suggest that it is.

What I mean when I say project management is the weak link is that there's not enough directing going on. Everyone's just off doing their own thing, they may communicate or they may not, Fenoxo may give out directions or not, the need for more coders isn't addressed, the need for more people to approve submissions isn't addressed and so on. Everything bottlenecks if only because there's so little management at all.
 
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Evil

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Everyone's just off doing their own thing, they may communicate or they may not, Fenoxo may give out directions or not,
And you know this how exactly? Are you a member of the team? Are you a coder? Artist? Project manager?
 
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Balaknightfang

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You're describing very basic realities of working with a team as if they're insurmountable obstacles. Getting someone(s) up to speed shouldn't take all that long if all the concepts have been drawn up and some of the framework built already. When the problem is "the main coder has very little time to work" then the solution, from a management standpoint, is for that coder to take on a leadership position and delegate the work that needs to be done to others after giving them an outline of what needs to be done and making sure the work they do is coordinated between everyone working on it. Doing any huge project solo is never an ideal solution and it's silly to suggest that it is.

Looking past any of the other reasons I was prepared to type up for why this isn't true, one of the things I notice about this whole thing is that you keep acting as though there's an infinitely available supply of coders who can be reassigned to do other things. As it stands, there's always things that need to be coded, and moving one of the small handful of coders (be they paid or volunteer) who can work on standard content to working on ship content would cripple the output of content to the game. You're right that having to do a huge project solo is never ideal, but the reality of the matter is that it's what we have to deal with. Which I suppose brings us to the next point of yours I can respond to:

the need for more coders isn't addressed

So, first and foremost, this is just blatantly untrue. WSan was literally just hired in no small part because he's capable of coding. Then there's the fact that the vast majority of the coders are volunteers. You can't just go out and pluck volunteer coders off a tree. Believe me, I wish we could.

the need for more people to approve submissions isn't addressed and so on

This is discussed quite frequently, and the fact of the matter is that there aren't more because the qualified individuals either don't fit what fen wants reviewing or just don't have time amidst their other work to review. It's as simple as that. The issue can't be addressed.
 
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Upcast Drake

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May 27, 2017
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My 2 cents. The reason systems work is exceptional is because you have to have a deep understanding of how everything in the entire game works. Its hard to explain without getting into the weeds but I'll try.

Coding scenes and other content is fairly straightforward. You call a function to output text, you call a function to create buttons, you set flags, etc. and it just works. It's fairly intuitive for someone technically minded to just look at how it's done elsewhere and trial and error your way through it. The underlying systems have abstracted away all the nitty gritty and are tried and true. You don't have to worry about creating new UI components. You don't have to worry about complex save serialization code. You don't have to worry about a lot of things.

When you're doing systems work you have to worry about everything. You have to know how the game works "under the hood" to be able to extend it for new functionality. This is no small task, and it isn't a matter of being a good vs bad coder. It's a massive time commitment, and there's no examples for you to look at and emulate. I coded for TiTS for months and Ive coded nearly everything in CoC2, including all the UI and systems work. It'd still likely take me weeks to understand all the ins and outs to do systems work for TiTS.

The other issue is just "too many cooks". Imagine you're trying to write a draft for a book, and you can see the whole thing in your head, and you decide to speed it up so you get a volunteer. You decide you'll write the first half and you'll give them an outline and they'll write the second half. When it comes time to put the first half and second half together it's going to be a disjointed and probably nonsensical mess. You'll start looking over their half and realize there's major inconsistencies and that you'll have to rewrite nearly all of it. It's an exercise in futility.

If you smash the two issues together, there isn't really any benefit to just throwing more bodies at it.