Something I don't understand about Kiyoko and the Kitsune Den

Kingu2

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2020
453
789
26
Maybe you're right that they both have the same affection for the champ but that's difficult to buy when one won't express it blatantly enough to where you're not sure if she even cares. I'm not saying they should express affection the same way but HIme Kinu ought to atleast be more apparent about what she wants rather than trying to please me in a given scenario. Especially when I know that she says and does things just to placate others on a regular basis how can I know she isn't doing the same to me. Like when I go to visit her everyday is she happy to see me? I mean she says she is but is she really? or is she just saying shit she thinks you want to hear and doesn't really care that I even showed up? How are you supposed to know? With Inari Kinu it's never a question. She wouldn't lie to you for ANY reason least of all to placate you. The fundamental difference between the 2 and why I like Inari so much more is that The fact that I know I can trust her when she says she had a good time and enjoys being with me. That she' not just hanging out with me for my sake, or as a formality on her to-do list. she's never neutral or formal with you means you always know when she's actually happy to see you and I love that about her.

Also It's not quiet right to say she an underachiever but is rather dispassionate about her role as a noble. because that girl works her ass off and excels at the things she wants to do and is just not interested in what other people want her to do.
 
Last edited:

Grainy

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2021
61
32
34
Well the funny thing is, I dont view the Kinus as whom they marry but more, what they represent. I view HIme as the one Kiyoko wanted because she looks and acts like a fox but deal with things that mix both foxen and "barbaric" views to make her the best fit for the colonies, while Inari(oh hey literally fox) is a mirror of Kiyokos worst traits and is basically her mother, someone whom everyone really would rather not bother with but want her to still be the leader even if it means nothing will change. Also inari hating Kiyoko with a fucking passion for me just, it just doesnt sit right with me at ALL.

Doesnt change the fact I want to also add her to my characters foxen harem lol.

I see what you mean, but I think its less that, more continuing the tradition of marrying The liege to the family of retainser to keep them together.
Isn't it hime that is most like her mother and Inari that takes after the barbaric traits?
 

zagzig

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2021
795
1,066
Especially when I know that she says and does things just to placate others on a regular basis how can I know she isn't doing the same to me. Like when I go to visit her everyday is she happy to see me? I mean she says she is but is she really? or is she just saying shit she thinks you want to hear and doesn't really care that I even showed up? How are you supposed to know?
reassuring head pat Everything's going to be okay buddy.
 

Kingu2

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2020
453
789
26
Because shes not faking her care for you? It's pretty simple to guess by the singular fact of the gift back scenes.
I still haven't seen that but I've got say..... Trail mix? that seems really disappointing. I mean for a piece of fruit fair enough but compared to a delicious dinner that was grown, hand pick, and prepared solely by her for you and your companions. Like man now I feel kinda bad for you guys.
Hime looks like but doesnt act like Inari doesnt look but acts like.
What?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alliebutt

Grainy

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2021
61
32
34
Honestly, this idea is interesting. Not the idea that Kiyoko doesn't respect you, I don't give a shit about that mostly because it feels like your vision of respect is based purely on the idea that you should get to choose who your daughter is marrying and you should get told about it, despite how the player's parents have no say in who they marry and do not get told about it and yet you're not saying that the Champ is disrespecting they're unseen parents. Seriously, I do get that it's upsetting to not get told about your daughter getting married, especially given how it's somewhat framed as "we didn't want to upset you" since that is somewhat patronizing, but I don't think this one singular example is enough to prove the idea, especially given how, as others have pointed out, she goes out of her way to include you in social events and traditions of her culture which she could easily have just not included you on, and how she's willing to adventure with you as a companion rather than staying home doing things which may be more culturally important.

No, what I'm actually interested in is the idea you have that Keros set this up in an unnatural manner to try to snag you. It's a very fascinating idea, and while it could be rejected with the idea that there's no reason why he would set all of this up considering that Kiyoko died around 200 years ago, it should be noted that fortune telling in CoC2 can have actual effects (For example, Ihzalti's good/bad fortunes impact crit chances), and there are several oracles (such as Hretha, who's vision of a special battle occurring in the Frost Marches sent the Korvus to this region) who can actually tell things about the future. I doubt Keros truly knew about you before you showed up at the Den, and I doubt he engineered things to trick you, specifically, into giving over your soul or something like that, but, well, we know of at least two foxes who can facilitate divination, those being Kiyoko and Miko. Sure, they use fortune slips, but still, it's a cultural practice that can get certain information about the future, particularly given the mechanics of Miko's slips. It could very well have been due to some different prophecy, or a prediction, or some sort of divination, but past Keros might have known that there was something important in the future, which could be a great benefit to him if certain things are facilitated. This potential divination could have been why Komari's age got extended too. I doubt he was acting maliciously, but he could still have partially engineered this situation, being guided by some unknown portent.

Of course, I have absolutely no way of knowing this, but it is a very interesting idea and topic. That said, it feels more like it belongs in the "Conspiracy theory" thread, rather than some fact. It's fun to think about, but not really knowable unless it's outright said/shown to actually be true. Otherwise the coincidences may just be because TOBS had a story he wanted to tell and so he just told it, and didn't think about how certain things may feel clearly designed from a certain perspective. He's very skilled, but nobody's perfect.

This, though, is probably just because of the limitations of a blob protagonist. Our backstories are vague, and no past family is with us here. We're from far away, and the details of the backstory blurbs are only detailed enough to explain why you may have certain stat bonuses and skills. We don't even really have a defined country of origin, and players may want to headcanon certain traits and details for their backstory which the writing simply can not account for. If she asks for our history and culture, then what is purposefully vague must suddenly be clearly defined, plus there are ten different backstory options (none of which are detailed enough for them to not be at least somewhat blobby), so it would have to be quite a bit to account for and make differing text to match. And hell, even if it was kept constrained to the history of what you do in game, you may be like me where you grab the amulet and get back in the tavern's bed before the first night is over, having no time to do any adventures before meeting her, in which case your in-game history is a grand total of "a demon came on me" or you could be halfway through Khor'minos and have done all the side content, in which case so much work would need to go in to writing about so many details that just aren't worth it.

The point is, this is a limitation due to this game's nature. The Champion is technically their own character, being canonically pansexual and having their own thoughts and feelings, but they still necessarily need to be a blob which can not truly be defined. In the future, the people working on this may make a player character who is much more truly defined (hell, TiTS itself is a lot more defined in terms of player backstory than CoC2 already), and in such a game, defining aspects of backstory would probably work fine. But here, if a writer attempted to define the Champ's backstory further than a random contextual "Well, I was a noble scion, I do have some understanding of how nobility works" or "as a soldier, I know how to train to fight physically and can help you become a better fighter more efficiently than a mage who has no background or training in martial arts," the end result would be a bunch of players complaining because it breaks established rules.
Hmmm Keros knew about me already by the time I met him, as did Nareva.
 

JBento

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2021
75
120
42
Hmmm Keros knew about me already by the time I met him, as did Nareva.
All the gods started looking into the Champion after... the Prologue, IIRC, when the portal blast did fun things to your soul. Like the kitsune and Kas, they consider your soul prime raw material of the highest quality. Then they spent the whole time eyeing each other warily for any signs of them making a move towards you, which none of them wants to do because that'd set off the race.
The Champion getting so involved with the Den is the one thing that gives Keros the opening to nab your soul without every other god pouncing on his ass.
 

wery12345

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2021
1,628
1,426
28
Yeah, you helping around the den is "oh I could just casually manifest and ask them" and the quest for it does make sense why he would show up, win or lose.
 
D

Dry Eye

Guest
No, what I'm actually interested in is the idea you have that Keros set this up in an unnatural manner to try to snag you. It's a very fascinating idea, and while it could be rejected with the idea that there's no reason why he would set all of this up considering that Kiyoko died around 200 years ago, it should be noted that fortune telling in CoC2 can have actual effects (For example, Ihzalti's good/bad fortunes impact crit chances), and there are several oracles (such as Hretha, who's vision of a special battle occurring in the Frost Marches sent the Korvus to this region) who can actually tell things about the future. I doubt Keros truly knew about you before you showed up at the Den, and I doubt he engineered things to trick you, specifically, into giving over your soul or something like that, but, well, we know of at least two foxes who can facilitate divination, those being Kiyoko and Miko. Sure, they use fortune slips, but still, it's a cultural practice that can get certain information about the future, particularly given the mechanics of Miko's slips. It could very well have been due to some different prophecy, or a prediction, or some sort of divination, but past Keros might have known that there was something important in the future, which could be a great benefit to him if certain things are facilitated. This potential divination could have been why Komari's age got extended too. I doubt he was acting maliciously, but he could still have partially engineered this situation, being guided by some unknown portent.

Of course, I have absolutely no way of knowing this, but it is a very interesting idea and topic. That said, it feels more like it belongs in the "Conspiracy theory" thread, rather than some fact. It's fun to think about, but not really knowable unless it's outright said/shown to actually be true. Otherwise the coincidences may just be because TOBS had a story he wanted to tell and so he just told it, and didn't think about how certain things may feel clearly designed from a certain perspective. He's very skilled, but nobody's perfect.

This, though, is probably just because of the limitations of a blob protagonist. Our backstories are vague, and no past family is with us here. We're from far away, and the details of the backstory blurbs are only detailed enough to explain why you may have certain stat bonuses and skills. We don't even really have a defined country of origin, and players may want to headcanon certain traits and details for their backstory which the writing simply can not account for. If she asks for our history and culture, then what is purposefully vague must suddenly be clearly defined, plus there are ten different backstory options (none of which are detailed enough for them to not be at least somewhat blobby), so it would have to be quite a bit to account for and make differing text to match. And hell, even if it was kept constrained to the history of what you do in game, you may be like me where you grab the amulet and get back in the tavern's bed before the first night is over, having no time to do any adventures before meeting her, in which case your in-game history is a grand total of "a demon came on me" or you could be halfway through Khor'minos and have done all the side content, in which case so much work would need to go in to writing about so many details that just aren't worth it.

The point is, this is a limitation due to this game's nature. The Champion is technically their own character, being canonically pansexual and having their own thoughts and feelings, but they still necessarily need to be a blob which can not truly be defined. In the future, the people working on this may make a player character who is much more truly defined (hell, TiTS itself is a lot more defined in terms of player backstory than CoC2 already), and in such a game, defining aspects of backstory would probably work fine. But here, if a writer attempted to define the Champ's backstory further than a random contextual "Well, I was a noble scion, I do have some understanding of how nobility works" or "as a soldier, I know how to train to fight physically and can help you become a better fighter more efficiently than a mage who has no background or training in martial arts," the end result would be a bunch of players complaining because it breaks established rules.
What I stated is as fact is that Kiyoko didn't get into a relationship and start a family with the champ out of a sense of admiration or respect, but out of desperation and necessity. The Keros thing is a theory by definition as it hasn't been confirmed, but I think it is strongly hinted he planned the whole thing. Among the reasons I already mentioned, if you go through the binding with Keros with Kiyoko present the champion notes their primary reason for doing so is to feel closer to Kiyoko, and only after the binding is your status as Keros' champion befitting to be united with Kiyoko. It is the purpose of this thread, ignoring my own view of Kiyoko, the den had no reason not to show their disapproval to your union, they have a low opinion of you. I can only make sense of it if Keros was somehow involved. Keros has displayed a vested interest in the marriage, personally appearing at your wedding with the glee of someone whose plot is falling into place, and everyone else became uncomfortable when he arrived, which was also strange to me, like something happened we weren't privy to.
 
D

Dry Eye

Guest
I don't get how Keros planned it.. especially since the champ can just ignore the amulet all together.
A trap is passive by nature, and if you ignore the amulet then it would just mean things didn't go to plan
 

wery12345

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2021
1,628
1,426
28
You can literally just hand them the amulet and fuck off, and if you would want to use that you could say Ryn is the trap set by Lumina to get your soul for herself? Cause Ryn is a wholesome bag of elf, and very much a reason why people will take her offer once available. And again, the low opinion on you is due to the isolationist nature of foxes, your the first outsider ever to be allowed to even step foot in there den. Also Kero's showing up to the wedding is because hes a shitter and love mischef and uh, you know, Kiyoko being a fucking close descendant of one of his concubines'/His champion if your foxen when you do it.
 
C

CMGuest

Guest
No. the Senninbari was for getting them free and the Bento box is from Kiyoko. I'm talking about this.
View attachment 19839
when you give Kinu some fruit as a Gift she prepares a return gift. Either a full course meal for you and your friends, or she plays a song for you on her japanese flute, thing, whatever it's called. I only remember getting gifts like that from Inari Kinu but never from Hime. and I remember Brint and Caits commenting on the food and remarking what a great cook she is.

this is a scene here -edit
View attachment 19840
does Hime Kinu do anything like this?

Yes, she does. Her return gifts find her waiting for you - in a now somehow extra tidied-up room - for the opportunity. When the you point out that it was just some fruit that she doesn't have to worry about repaying, her response is that the fact that it was from you means that it was certainly not 'just some fruit' even before accounting for time spent in gifting or the meaning behind the gift.

At this point I would put forward a reminder that Hime basically always talks as if she's at a formal event with an audience scrutinizing her every move and waiting to pounce. So she tends to give formal reasoning on why honor/tradition/protocol dictated that she absolutely had to do something and it absolutely has no bearing on what she wanted to do, winkwink. This is to say, it tends to have a lot of courtly doublespeak and deniability, and requires some reading between the lines as she gives a formal justification (read: plausible deniability) for something she intended to do regardless.

Anyways, in the case I just pulled up, her gift is her giving you what amounts to a private concert for her playing the Koto, capping off with a rare crack in Kinu's armor:

At last, though, Kinu plucks the last notes from the strings, and opens her eyes once more. Her tails are curled about her legs and thighs, and the need for approval, your approval is clear and desperate in her gaze.

"How did you like it, Father?"

Very nice, now.

In that moment, your fox-daughter looks so small and vulnerable, as if she were a kit again. Then her usual nature asserts itself once more, and she lowers her gaze. "Thank you for the compliment."

No, thank her for the fine performance.

"Ah. Well... I suppose that is it, then." Kinu's still clearly quite embarrassed, but she rises from her seat and crosses over to help you out of your seats and back into her chambers. "Do not worry about the instruments, I will put them away later. Spending time with you is more important, after all.

Or she might give you a luck charm she made herself, described as "a small effigy of a fox, meticulously put together from rice straw and complete with a tiny red bib tied about its neck." Or yes, trail rations, which I must correct a misconception on: Trail Rations are not Trail Mix. By the game's own description, Trail Rations are a nonperishable meal for three. She made that herself specifically to give you something she made that was non-perishable and that you could eat on your journey both for sustenance and as a reminder of home. As she herself explicitly puts it she made it utilitarian due to your circumstances.

And then of course there's the mystery gift. No idea what it actually is, but it's described as a large gift-wrapped box, the contents of which she chose in hopes it would be useful on your travels...and which the scene makes clear she put way too much time into getting the presentation perfect. "The wrapping may be simple, but it's clear that Kinu's spent an inordinate amount of time on the gift's presentation — there's nary a wrinkle in the cloth wrapping, and the bow about the top is incredibly elaborate."

Alternatively, she can give you a peck on the cheek. Side note, if you have Kiyoko in your party, she knows how to throw Kinu off her game and has variants for a few of the scenes, including gifting Kinu with berries (which is rather cute), and her Koto recital. But to keep things short, let's stick with the kiss on the cheek.

Ah, well. You give Kinu a pat on the head between the ears, eliciting a giggle from your fox-daughter.

Standing beside you, Kiyoko just shakes her head and smiles. "Now then, daughter, let's just be sure we understand this: your father is mine, and I'm not giving him up. Not even for you, as much as I love you. Are we clear?"

"M-mother? What are you saying?!"

Kiyoko laughs. "Ehehehe. You should see your face, my dear. That was completely worth teasing you for, and... I'm not sorry. Ehehehe."

You ask in a later post how you can trust that Hime's affection is genuine. For what it's worth, Cait seems to believe it (berries scene), noting that conveying the degree of caring she hears in Kinu's speech artificially tends to take a lifetime of practice.

More than that, however, I think I mentioned something about Hime's dialogue requiring one to read a bit more between the lines? That's not entirely figurative. What she says is only part of the story being told. We see more of it in reading about how the physical details play in, how your character reacts, how she reacts to that reaction. Hime's better at intuiting and empathizing with others than Shoujo, and on that does make her a slightly tougher nut to crack, but she's certainly not a black box. For all that she couches her speech in justification and formality, she's no more a heartless Machiavellian than Shoujo is.

But back to the point, let's take a look at the return gifts themselves. The kiss on the cheek is difficult to put a price tag on, but it's a rare explicit show of affection nonetheless. Even if we take her at her word about equivalent value, what does it say to you that she thinks the equivalent value of you giving her a peach, a handful of wild berries, or a melon - things you probably picked up in the woods as an afterthought while walking to the den - is a private recital? A meticulously handmade effigy of her own creation? A meal for three for you to take on your journey? Whatever was in that package that she spent so long trying to make look perfect? Does that not speak to the value she puts on the simple fact that it was a gift from you?

Kinu's older, but whether she's Hime or Shoujo, she's still very much the same girl that desperately wanted you specifically to be proud of her as a child. And while Hime is more stolid and a stickler for manners and decorum, that trait is still evident in the excitement she shows when she gets to show you her art, when she gets nervous when it's time for you to voice your opinions on her recital. It's evident when she was visibly on edge after you confront her about not telling you about her engagement, knowing full well that her father and her fiancee had some bad blood between them, and when she tries to hide her blush when you cap off that conversation expressing how important it was to you to be able to attend that wedding.

She goes about it in a roundabout way, but she'll still ask you for "what should I do" advice in light of everyone telling her that Nakano is a hopeless cause, despite feeling in her heart that she can help him (variant shogi dialogue). The scenes repeatedly make it clear that - and I quote - "underneath [her confidence] you can tell that your fox-daughter is absolutely begging for your recognition and approval". Any time she shows off her music or artwork, the scenes describe an apprehensive excitement. When you express an interest in seeing some of her art, "Kinu visibly brightens, her ice-blue eyes lighting up and ears perking with energy. Does she... does she look embarrassed?""

For clarity, I am not trying to sell you the idea that Hime is superior to Shoujo. I have no interest in that pissing contest, neither directly nor by proxy. The two are simply different and whichever a given person prefers is going to depend in large part on which values they personally put a premium on. What I am disputing is the idea that Hime doesn't obviously care for or respect you. That she plays it closer to the vest than Shoujo doesn't mean that she cares less.
 
D

Dry Eye

Guest
You can literally just hand them the amulet and fuck off, and if you would want to use that you could say Ryn is the trap set by Lumina to get your soul for herself? Cause Ryn is a wholesome bag of elf, and very much a reason why people will take her offer once available. And again, the low opinion on you is due to the isolationist nature of foxes, your the first outsider ever to be allowed to even step foot in there den. Also Kero's showing up to the wedding is because hes a shitter and love mischef and uh, you know, Kiyoko being a fucking close descendant of one of his concubines'/His champion if your foxen when you do it.
Lumina is not Keros, and nothing about the circumstances or relationship with Ryn is unnatural, while everything about your relationship with Kiyoko is glaringly unnatural and constantly highlighted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Emerald

Kingu2

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2020
453
789
26
Lumina is not Keros, and nothing about the circumstances or relationship with Ryn is unnatural, while everything about your relationship with Kiyoko is glaringly unnatural and constantly highlighted.
What!? This girl runs from her home which was taken over by demons and immediately attaches herself to the first person who finds her. and no matter how much that person hurts her, abuses her, belittles her, and is clearly using her for their own ends, She stays attached to them and never fights back or runs away out of fear and anxiety at the thought of being alone and useless. What part of that relationship is natural?
 

Daft Hellians

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2017
81
70
31
Keros!.png
 

Wint3rRyd3r

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
929
2,159
Keros is the true villain behind everything. I bet he even helped open the portal and give Tollus that shitty live enhancing stuff. All to get a supple protagonist soul. I bet it goes even further. He probably even made Lethice and made her agonizing pre-fight gauntlet. That sumbitch.

As much as I distrust Keros and think he's a dick, I think you're giving him too much credit. While I wouldn't be too surprised if he did mess with probability to make coincidences line up, I doubt that's where Tobs is going.
Lumina is not Keros

shocked.gif
 

wery12345

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2021
1,628
1,426
28
Also pretty sure every single god has a stake of land minus the catboy twink supreme, in the marches. Chances are every single fucking god knew SOMETHING was going to happen in the marches in the future and might have set stuff up to enhance the chance of whatever the fuck it is(the PC) will find there way to them. So maybe Keros did know about the orb and Lumina knew of the shit state Alissa was leaving the kingdom in but chose to ignore it to allow there chances to get you to them. Also Ryn 100% fucking gives you the marcher baron title to allow you to marry her, so in theory same taste different flavour to kiyokos marriage.


Sorry for the wall of eye pain.
 

Kingu2

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2020
453
789
26
Yes, she does. Her return gifts find her waiting for you - in a now somehow extra tidied-up room - for the opportunity. When the you point out that it was just some fruit that she doesn't have to worry about repaying, her response is that the fact that it was from you means that it was certainly not 'just some fruit' even before accounting for time spent in gifting or the meaning behind the gift.

At this point I would put forward a reminder that Hime basically always talks as if she's at a formal event with an audience scrutinizing her every move and waiting to pounce. So she tends to give formal reasoning on why honor/tradition/protocol dictated that she absolutely had to do something and it absolutely has no bearing on what she wanted to do, winkwink. This is to say, it tends to have a lot of courtly doublespeak and deniability, and requires some reading between the lines as she gives a formal justification (read: plausible deniability) for something she intended to do regardless.

Anyways, in the case I just pulled up, her gift is her giving you what amounts to a private concert for her playing the Koto, capping off with a rare crack in Kinu's armor:



Or she might give you a luck charm she made herself, described as "a small effigy of a fox, meticulously put together from rice straw and complete with a tiny red bib tied about its neck." Or yes, trail rations, which I must correct a misconception on: Trail Rations are not Trail Mix. By the game's own description, Trail Rations are a nonperishable meal for three. She made that herself specifically to give you something she made that was non-perishable and that you could eat on your journey both for sustenance and as a reminder of home. As she herself explicitly puts it she made it utilitarian due to your circumstances.

And then of course there's the mystery gift. No idea what it actually is, but it's described as a large gift-wrapped box, the contents of which she chose in hopes it would be useful on your travels...and which the scene makes clear she put way too much time into getting the presentation perfect. "The wrapping may be simple, but it's clear that Kinu's spent an inordinate amount of time on the gift's presentation — there's nary a wrinkle in the cloth wrapping, and the bow about the top is incredibly elaborate."

Alternatively, she can give you a peck on the cheek. Side note, if you have Kiyoko in your party, she knows how to throw Kinu off her game and has variants for a few of the scenes, including gifting Kinu with berries (which is rather cute), and her Koto recital. But to keep things short, let's stick with the kiss on the cheek.



You ask in a later post how you can trust that Hime's affection is genuine. For what it's worth, Cait seems to believe it (berries scene), noting that conveying the degree of caring she hears in Kinu's speech artificially tends to take a lifetime of practice.

More than that, however, I think I mentioned something about Hime's dialogue requiring one to read a bit more between the lines? That's not entirely figurative. What she says is only part of the story being told. We see more of it in reading about how the physical details play in, how your character reacts, how she reacts to that reaction. Hime's better at intuiting and empathizing with others than Shoujo, and on that does make her a slightly tougher nut to crack, but she's certainly not a black box. For all that she couches her speech in justification and formality, she's no more a heartless Machiavellian than Shoujo is.

But back to the point, let's take a look at the return gifts themselves. The kiss on the cheek is difficult to put a price tag on, but it's a rare explicit show of affection nonetheless. Even if we take her at her word about equivalent value, what does it say to you that she thinks the equivalent value of you giving her a peach, a handful of wild berries, or a melon - things you probably picked up in the woods as an afterthought while walking to the den - is a private recital? A meticulously handmade effigy of her own creation? A meal for three for you to take on your journey? Whatever was in that package that she spent so long trying to make look perfect? Does that not speak to the value she puts on the simple fact that it was a gift from you?

Kinu's older, but whether she's Hime or Shoujo, she's still very much the same girl that desperately wanted you specifically to be proud of her as a child. And while Hime is more stolid and a stickler for manners and decorum, that trait is still evident in the excitement she shows when she gets to show you her art, when she gets nervous when it's time for you to voice your opinions on her recital. It's evident when she was visibly on edge after you confront her about not telling you about her engagement, knowing full well that her father and her fiancee had some bad blood between them, and when she tries to hide her blush when you cap off that conversation expressing how important it was to you to be able to attend that wedding.

She goes about it in a roundabout way, but she'll still ask you for "what should I do" advice in light of everyone telling her that Nakano is a hopeless cause, despite feeling in her heart that she can help him (variant shogi dialogue). The scenes repeatedly make it clear that - and I quote - "underneath [her confidence] you can tell that your fox-daughter is absolutely begging for your recognition and approval". Any time she shows off her music or artwork, the scenes describe an apprehensive excitement. When you express an interest in seeing some of her art, "Kinu visibly brightens, her ice-blue eyes lighting up and ears perking with energy. Does she... does she look embarrassed?""

For clarity, I am not trying to sell you the idea that Hime is superior to Shoujo. I have no interest in that pissing contest, neither directly nor by proxy. The two are simply different and whichever a given person prefers is going to depend in large part on which values they personally put a premium on. What I am disputing is the idea that Hime doesn't obviously care for or respect you. That she plays it closer to the vest than Shoujo doesn't mean that she cares less.
all right I admit Hime Kinu loves you just as much as Inari. I've accepted it and am willing to put it past me. But I still don't like her formalness and Indirect way of showing affection. I don't care for people who can't genuine and straight with me. And I really, really, don't appreciate her trying to live her life around other peoples expectations rather than what she's actually passionate about.
Or she might give you a luck charm she made herself, described as "a small effigy of a fox, meticulously put together from rice straw and complete with a tiny red bib tied about its neck." Or yes, trail rations, which I must correct a misconception on: Trail Rations are not Trail Mix. By the game's own description, Trail Rations are a nonperishable meal for three. She made that herself specifically to give you something she made that was non-perishable and that you could eat on your journey both for sustenance and as a reminder of home. As she herself explicitly puts it she made it utilitarian due to your circumstances.
look I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the gift. I used the wrong word but I new what it was, and for a peach it's a great consumable item to get in exchange and is of course very thoughtful of her. But Inari Kinu's gift is just above and beyond. She cooked a whole ass dinner for you and your friends with crops she grew and harvested herself. Dried fruit, Jerky, and pickled vegetables just can't compare to a home cooked meal that your daughter poured every ounce her blood, sweat and tears into from planting the seeds to putting on the plate. It's an amount of effort that is clearly about so much more than the peach I gave her two days ago. I'm sorry but when I compare the two I just can't help but feel disappointed with a pack of trail rations.
 

Burnerbro

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
625
720
34
All to get a supple protagonist soul.
You gotta think bigger! Clearly, Keros is REAL and is aiming for the PLAYERS' souls! TObs is just an unwitting tool in the machinations of the Floofy Devil, who as we speak is this close to manifesting in our reality through some perv's monitor.

But hey, that's just a theory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Daft Hellians
D

Dry Eye

Guest
Oh ok, I must be crazy for entertaining the thought that trickster god might have tricked you. Surely not.

Also Ryn 100% fucking gives you the marcher baron title to allow you to marry her, so in theory same taste different flavour to kiyokos marriage.
Ryn wasn't pumping out impossible babies. So no, not the same.

What!? This girl runs from her home which was taken over by demons and immediately attaches herself to the first person who finds her. and no matter how much that person hurts her, abuses her, belittles her, and is clearly using her for their own ends, She stays attached to them and never fights back or runs away out of fear and anxiety at the thought of being alone and useless. What part of that relationship is natural?
Because it is something that could realistically happen. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word unnatural and instead used supernatural, because that is what your relationship with Kiyoko is. It defies reason.
 

SmithEK

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2021
1,697
1,607
30
Okay say it's a trap set by Keros.. so he was aware Kiyoko was in the astral plane all along then why take so long releasing her? Or better yet why punish Komari if Keros knew where Kiyoko was all along?

I have never and will ever abuse Ryn.. too kind for her own good. Just look at that corrupted fella she allows to stay at the palace and no he is absolutely worse than Elthara by a long shot.
 

JBento

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2021
75
120
42
There's a lot of talk about Keros PUNISHING Komari, and that's certainly what is said in-game, but I'm pretty sure that what Keros did was align things in exactly the way he wanted them while satisfying the precepts of kitsune culture via a TECHNICALITY.

Because, of course, Komari failed to protect Kiyoko and therefore she had to punished, and everyone agrees that turning Komari into a soulless eternal abomination is punishment, right? Right? Right! So there's Keros punishing Komari and all the formalities are satisfied.

I'm CERTAIN that doing it just HAPPENED to give Keros a strong-willed, cunning leader ad aeternum for his foothold on the Marches, and was, in no way, shape, or form, Keros's actual goal. One hundred percent sure, I am.
 

Tide Hunter

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2019
887
1,189
Because it is something that could realistically happen. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word unnatural and instead used supernatural, because that is what your relationship with Kiyoko is. It defies reason.
Ryn's cock got locked in a cage that's literally only openable using her sister's soul as a key, and when you find her, Kas had tied her up and left her in a tree, rather tan just doing what Kas does to mortals, of fucking them until they squirt out their soul. Once you get her, you can abuse Ryn in practically any way you want and basically just make her utterly dependent on you, or you can love her and give her affection to boost her confidence, but either way you're forming a strong bond. She's even absolutely completely necessary for a dungeon in the main story, where, at the end of it, Kas (who is, again, a big fucking red demon, who just got done turning the entire Boreal Elven nobility into fuck-happy sluts despite how some of them are previously described as extremely cold) opens a portal to another world, and depending on your route Lumia busts in through the roof, showing that she knows something is happening but only chose direct action when things aren't going according to her plan. It is both unnatural and supernatural.
 

Kingu2

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2020
453
789
26
I'm all but certain Keros did not plan to trap Kiyoko in the jewel and have her seduce you into giving him your soul. The theory I have about that makes a lot more sense.;)

Keros fabricated everything in the astral plain including Kiyoko using the the remains of the real Kiyoko's corpse (who actually died in the attack) to create the ultimate baby maker all he needed was a poor dope to give him the energy needed to release her into reality. You see Keros isn't after the champs soul that would merely be a bonus. what he's really after is Taoths soul, true divinity. But he knows full well that taking on a true god is no easy task and the colonists don't have the strength or numbers to defeat Taoths followers. That's why he created Kiyoko and made her into a veritable baby factory, with ludicrously short pregnancies and birthing children that age past helplessness in a matter of seconds. He doesn't want you to marry her for your soul. he wants you to marry her so you'll produce an army of super babies for him. Just from looking at Kinu who managed to kill a number of Taoths troops single handedly I'd say the results speak for themselveso_O.
 

Aurore

Well-Known Member
Oct 23, 2020
147
263
Brazil
Keros fabricated everything in the astral plain including Kiyoko using the the remains of the real Kiyoko's corpse (who actually died in the attack) to create the ultimate baby maker all he needed was a poor dope to give him the energy needed to release her into reality. You see Keros isn't after the champs soul that would merely be a bonus. what he's really after is Taoths soul, true divinity. But he knows full well that taking on a true god is no easy task and the colonists don't have the strength or numbers to defeat Taoths followers. That's why he created Kiyoko and made her into a veritable baby factory, with ludicrously short pregnancies and birthing children that age past helplessness in a matter of seconds. He doesn't want you to marry her for your soul. he wants you to marry her so you'll produce an army of super babies for him. Just from looking at Kinu who managed to kill a number of Taoths troops single handedly I'd say the results speak for themselveso_O.
mother of god, how did I not think of this before?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Daft Hellians

Lone Wolf115

Well-Known Member
I don't get how Keros planned it.. especially since the champ can just ignore the amulet all together.
A trap is passive by nature, and if you ignore the amulet then it would just mean things didn't go to plan
As it goes: Plans don't always survive contact with the enemy.
 

wery12345

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2021
1,628
1,426
28
Man this guest is in for a fucking trip if they havent done convection of mirror's, and why it being a trap is quite a impossibility.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lone Wolf115