Something I don't understand about Kiyoko and the Kitsune Den

JBento

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That and they didnt really care because while Nanko is a fucking shitter hes good at fighting, your the first person to kinda, beat the fucking shit out of there entire upper cast.
True. Unfortunately for literally everyone involved, Nakano's job isn't actually fighting. He's the provost, meaning that what he should actually have to be good at his job is tactical acumen (and he can't adapt to an evolving situation if you made a powerpoint presentation with step-by-step instructions) and charisma, and Nakano has all the charisma of week-old, plague rat roadkill. Even the girl that LIKES him (and who he likes) finds him exhausting.

I think its the whole, Kiyoko handling there education without any imput by you.
She can hardly be blamed, seeing as you only make occasional visits and time is an even bigger ball of wibbly wobbly time-y wimey... stuff in the Astral than it is everywhere else.
 
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Kingu2

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I think its the whole, Kiyoko handling there education without any imput by you.
How about to be fair, Kiyoko never says anything like this. The champ doesn't get involved in the education of any of their children not just the ones with Kiyoko. And more importantly that has nothing to do with her saying the Champs input when it comes to their family doesn't matter to her.
 
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Evil

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Yeah but hes still better then the average merc/marcher.
The average Marcher or Mercenary yes, but what happens if and when the quality of invader improves? When tactics change? That boy is going to find himself on the receiving end of an ass-reaming.
 

Kingu2

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The average Marcher or Mercenary yes, but what happens if and when the quality of invader improves? When tactics change? That boy is going to find himself on the receiving end of an ass-reaming.
They say experience is the teacher. I think that would be an excellent learning experience for him.
 
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JBento

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They say experience is the teacher. I think that would be an excellent learning experience for him.
I'm lol'ing at the possibility of Nakano ever learning anything, when "not-Japan is actually perfect and everything it has done from time immemorial is absolutely flawless and needs no change" is literally his one personality trait.
 

Daft Hellians

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How about to be fair, Kiyoko never says anything like this. The champ doesn't get involved in the education of any of their children not just the ones with Kiyoko. And more importantly that has nothing to do with her saying the Champs input when it comes to their family doesn't matter to her.
The closest, and only scenes that come close to this that I'm aware of are the one-off scenes with Kiyoko and Kinu about her engagement, and she, as the text describes, tells you matter-of-fact, but empathically, that you don't have any bearing in your daughters' engagement. I've really only had Inari Kinu at length, so maybe the tone of the conversation is different if you raise Hime Kinu?

Inari Kinu's one-off convo about it does start out very defensively, but I was with the Champ in being bothered more about being left out of the loop, than that it was arranged. I'm only your father, often gone; MyBook and FaceSpace don't exist and no one has written in Sending Stones for the Champ to long-distance sex communicate with their lovers, kids, what have you. I'm sorry I want to be involved in your life.
 
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Dry Eye

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Again I don't know what you're referring to. I don't recall any scene where she say's you don't matter to your family or that your perspective is virtually worthless. If she does show me the scene.
She practically tells you your role as a parent is irrelevant when you bring up not being told about Kinu's engagement.

I think its the whole, Kiyoko handling there education without any imput by you.
This is boiling down everything I have been saying to the most inconsequential factor of the scenario. What I am saying is your thoughts and opinions are not considered or respected by Kiyoko, for all the affection and bento boxes she treats you like you are beneath her, because in the eyes of her and her culture, you are. A culture that is wholly antagonistic toward you, it poisons the minds of your family. None of them consider your feelings for a moment.

But again I would like to go back to the marriage which I am still trying to make sense of. For all the talk of how worthless you are, why would this be a union that is supported? Something about the whole thing rings hollow.

Lets return to this thought:
Don't you think it strange that they only start to warm up to you after you literally handed your soul to their god?

I mean if the player cares enough about Kiyoko to want to free her, as that plotline progresses it is assumed the MC wants to ingratiate themselves with the Kitsune den as a whole, and for the only path leading to that is giving up your soul makes it seem like the orb was cleverly laid tempting trap to begin with. That Keros played you.

No because the bolvar elves will do the same if you take luminas and the salamanders with Navera, by becoming a divine champion people will respect you because your basically the gods right hand man.

I don't think I responded to that point yet so I will do it now, the circumstances with Kitsune and Salamanders or Elves are not equivalent. Keros positions himself so his offer is the likeliest to to be first and occurring after your life has already been intimately rooted within his domain.

Like the orb and Kiyoko acted as a snare so Keros could get his hands on you. Look back and you see nothing about your relationship with Kiyoko is organic, all breaking the rules of what is meant to happen. Introduce the champion to Kiyoko; a high born Kitsune trapped and starved for social interaction. Note that Kiyoko did not choose to have Kinu with you (like all other kitsune can choose when they reproduce), it was something imposed on the both of you. Yet no matter what, even if you are sterile you would conceive with Kiyoko.

Through time, limited options and constantly bearing your children Kiyoko developes an attachment to you, not a healthy way to cultivate a relationship. Kiyoko didn't get with you because she admired and respected who you were, she got with you because you were the only one there, a light in the darkest time of her life.

This fact is reflected with how she treats you.
 
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wery12345

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But again I would like to go back to the marriage which I am still trying to make sense of. For all the talk of how worthless you are, why would this be a union that is supported?
Because Kiyoko actually fucking loves you dude, ive seen both the normal and the Kitsune champ version, and while there is a decent difference there, the non0foxen champ one still puts it through that she does in fact care for the champ the way her people are be damned. Hell if you do the foxen picnic you learn the champ really doesnt fucking care at that time if they like them or not, they only care for there family.

Like thats it, its such a simple answer, shes not using you in any way, she fucking waited and never gave up on you after 10 years, she chose to go to YOU first after freeing her not her parton deity, that is something that says everythign without word.

Keros positions himself so his offer is the likeliest to to be first and occurring after your life has already been intimately rooted within his domain.
Strike while the iron is hot, explain his offer and then he tells you that yes, there is others amoungst the seven who have interest in your soul even though he had no reason to do that to risk spoiling his chances. Also your complaining about a organic relationship forming but uhhh, no matter who you chooose amounst any character minus say Ryn do you have a relationship that organically makes a lick of fucking sense, Kiyokos only has a TINY headway due to time fuckery but it would be impossible to make it feel organic without a obnoxious amount of extra filler content.
 

Kingu2

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She practically tells you your role as a parent is irrelevant when you bring up not being told about Kinu's engagement.
That is incorrect. you are misinterpreting what she's saying in this scene. she tells you don't have the option to weigh in on whether or not Kinu actually gets married. That is not the same as your role as a parent being irrelevant or that she doesn't care about your opinion. Don't confuse the unpalatable facets of her culture with HER thoughts.
This is boiling down everything I have been saying to the most inconsequential factor of the scenario. What I am saying is your thoughts and opinions are not considered or respected by Kiyoko, for all the affection and bento boxes she treats you like you are beneath her, because in the eyes of her and her culture, you are. A culture that is wholly antagonistic toward you, it poisons the minds of your family. None of them consider your feelings for a moment.
Again what the fuck are you talking about. in no way does she treat you or even imply in the slightest that you are beneath her. You are right that in the eyes of her culture you are lesser because you're not a kitsune, but Kiyoko herself doesn't see you that way at all. If she did she wouldn't bother even calling you her husband and invite you out to social functions like the festival or the headpat ceremony you probably wouldn't even know they happened. She damn sure wouldn't show up at the winter festivus if she didn't give a fuck what you think and how you feel because making you happy is literally the only reason she shows up. You keep saying she doesn't consider your feelings and treats you as beneath her but I have yet to see a single clear cut example of that.
 
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Dry Eye

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Because Kiyoko actually fucking loves you dude, ive seen both the normal and the Kitsune champ version, and while there is a decent difference there, the non0foxen champ one still puts it through that she does in fact care for the champ the way her people are be damned. Hell if you do the foxen picnic you learn the champ really doesnt fucking care at that time if they like them or not, they only care for there family.

Like thats it, its such a simple answer, shes not using you in any way, she fucking waited and never gave up on you after 10 years, she chose to go to YOU first after freeing her not her parton deity, that is something that says everythign without word.
You are not getting what I am saying, I am not accusing Kiyoko of having ulterior motives beyond the surface (Keros however....) I just that she sees you as beneath her and not worthy of consultation in matters of import despite her feelings for you. Also she in fact does very much care about the opinion of her people, proven with her stance on inari Kinu's engagement, so that is just plain wrong. You being her consort should be fine, but their is an obvious value to marriage within her culture. Even if Kiyoko was just being hypocrital regarding the inari Kinu situation, that doesn't explain the support from the rest of den.


Strike while the iron is hot, explain his offer and then he tells you that yes, there is others amoungst the seven who have interest in your soul even though he had no reason to do that to risk spoiling his chances. Also your complaining about a organic relationship forming but uhhh, no matter who you chooose amounst any character minus say Ryn do you have a relationship that organically makes a lick of fucking sense, Kiyokos only has a TINY headway due to time fuckery but it would be impossible to make it feel organic without a obnoxious amount of extra filler content.
I think it was Keros orchestrated your relationship with Kiyoko, not that he just jumped an an opportunity. Kiyoko relationship with the champion is entirely different from anyone else's, she was starved for social interaction and it was either you or no one. Is it not strange that Kiyoko has no choice but to conceive a child with you? Why is this the exception? I suspect it is by Keros' design.

The narrative notes that everything regarding the two of you is unprecedented, it can't be chalked up to "no filler content". It is purposefully unnatural.
 
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Dry Eye

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That is incorrect. you are misinterpreting what she's saying in this scene. she tells you don't have the option to weigh in on whether or not Kinu actually gets married. That is not the same as your role as a parent being irrelevant or that she doesn't care about your opinion. Don't confuse the unpalatable facets of her culture with HER thoughts.

Again what the fuck are you talking about. in no way does she treat you or even imply in the slightest that you are beneath her. You are right that in the eyes of her culture you are lesser because you're not a kitsune, but Kiyoko herself doesn't see you that way at all. If she did she wouldn't bother even calling you her husband and invite you out to social functions like the festival or the headpat ceremony you probably wouldn't even know they happened. She damn sure wouldn't show up at the winter festivus if she didn't give a fuck what you think and how you feel because making you happy is literally the only reason she shows up. You keep saying she doesn't consider your feelings and treats you as beneath her but I have yet to see a single clear cut example of that.
Well we can only go by a characters actions, or in this case inaction. Apparently she does abide by her cultures view of you because she also deemed it unnecessary that you be informed. She also never shows any interest in your history or your culture, you are expected to consistently kow tow to hers even as unwelcoming as it is to you.

Again I am not saying she doesn't care or cherish you, you are important in that you helped her get through a dark lonely period in her life. I just don't think she values your opinions or considers your feelings.
 
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wery12345

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At this point im wondering if you even read what she says during that, both hime and inari Kinus engagements, Kiyoko states that she didnt want to worry you, your kinda out there saving the world from a industrial corrupting demon.
 
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Dry Eye

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At this point im wondering if you even read what she says during that, both hime and inari Kinus engagements, Kiyoko states that she didnt want to worry you, your kinda out there saving the world from a industrial corrupting demon.
The polite thing to say, also kinda dismissive in a "don't concern yourself with matter you have no input in anyway dear" type of way

and silly considering she is saving the world with you.
 

Kingu2

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Because Kiyoko actually fucking loves you dude, ive seen both the normal and the Kitsune champ version, and while there is a decent difference there, the non0foxen champ one still puts it through that she does in fact care for the champ the way her people are be damned. Hell if you do the foxen picnic you learn the champ really doesnt fucking care at that time if they like them or not, they only care for there family.
Also she in fact does very much care about the opinion of her people, proven with her stance on inari Kinu's engagement, so that is just plain wrong.
No one said she doesn't care About her peoples opinions, just that she doesn't Care whether they like you or not. It's the difference between saying "I don't care about my friends opinions on sports" versus "I don't care about my friends opinions. Period" not the same thing at all.
I think it was Keros orchestrated your relationship with Kiyoko, not that he just jumped an an opportunity. Kiyoko relationship with the champion is entirely different from anyone else's, she was starved for social interaction and it was either you or no one. Is it not strange that Kiyoko has no choice but to conceive a child with you? Why is this the exception? I suspect it is by Keros' design.

The narrative notes that everything regarding the two of you is unprecedented, it can't be chalked up to "no filler content". It is purposefully unnatural.
Now your getting into Conspiracy theory iceberg. But you've only just scratched the surface right?
Well we can only go by a characters actions, or in this case inaction. Apparently she does abide by her cultures view of you because she also deemed it unnecessary that you be informed. She also never shows any interest in your history or your culture, you are expected to consistently kow tow to hers even as unwelcoming as it is to you.

Again I am not saying she doesn't care or cherish you, you are important in that you helped her get through a dark lonely period in her life. I just don't think she values your opinions or considers your feelings.
At this point we'll just have to agree to disagree, Because I'm just not buying it and you won't be satisfied unless she acknowledges your culture which as the PC you technically don't have one. I mean your race and background are things you can choose but your country of origin, native culture, racial identity which can change over the course of a meal. No writer is going to account for these things. Least of all TOBS.
 
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wery12345

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Shes helping, your the only one who CAN save it. And yeah when it comes to the average champ your fucking entire identity can change day to day, there is only solid grounding in how things are treated if you become the divine champion of keros and it can easily be written in. Basically normal champ wants to understand the culture while the foxen wants to know how to live within that culture.

Like your trying to tell us to say that "yes keros is totally just a evil bastard who tricked you" but none of the god are evil, they do what they do because they have the power to, also at no point would it make sense it was left there just for you. If anything Keros did know in some capcity it was there, but due to gods wanting to interfere as little as possible none of the foxes found it themselves. Also mother fuckers in this world couldnt solve a simple gem door puzzle.
 
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CMGuest

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She practically tells you your role as a parent is irrelevant when you bring up not being told about Kinu's engagement.

She says nothing of the sort. She says that you have no say in who Kinu marries. Under Kitsune custom, the couple have a say, and the head of household gets a say, and such unions are more political than they are romantic, especially considering Kinu's pedigree. To put that in perspective, by her own characterization, that Kinu - the bride-to-be herself - is actually enamored of her betrothed is a welcome bonus that was technically optional.

In this respect we can see parallels with the matchmaking tradition seen in the likes of Fiddler of the Roof. In fact, based on her description of how it usually goes, it's almost a dead ringer minus the politicking. The matchmaker acts as an intermediary, and as head of the household it's Tevye's decision whether or not it happens. If his daughter likes the man she's matched with, so much the better. But by tradition it's not necessary.

And returning to the politicking, you don't get a say because the marriage is functionally a formalization of an alliance between two clans. Heck, if you have Inari Kinu, we see that even Kiyoko's personal preferences take a backseat to this fact. She isn't slighting your role as parent by saying that you get no say in who your daughter marries. At absolute worst she's saying that because you're someone outside the culture who married into her clan, you don't have the political standing in that culture to broker an alliance with other clans (much less the knowledge of how best to do so).
 

SmithEK

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I don't know if Kiyoko actually loves the champ or it's some kinda 'you saved me l, now I'm yours or your mine' kind of thing.. but I do think she cares somewhat for the champ even if it's just because we saved her.

Personally I don't actually care about being told the engagement has nothing to do with us because if my champ had her way, she would gut both men and take Kinu on as a companion.. short Kinu though coz the tall sexy one is too much like Kiyoko.. and one of her is enough.
 
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Tide Hunter

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Like the orb and Kiyoko acted as a snare so Keros could get his hands on you. Look back and you see nothing about your relationship with Kiyoko is organic, all breaking the rules of what is meant to happen. Introduce the champion to Kiyoko; a high born Kitsune trapped and starved for social interaction. Note that Kiyoko did not choose to have Kinu with you (like all other kitsune can choose when they reproduce), it was something imposed on the both of you. Yet no matter what, even if you are sterile you would conceive with Kiyoko.

Through time, limited options and constantly bearing your children Kiyoko developes an attachment to you, not a healthy way to cultivate a relationship. Kiyoko didn't get with you because she admired and respected who you were, she got with you because you were the only one there, a light in the darkest time of her life.

This fact is reflected with how she treats you.
I think it was Keros orchestrated your relationship with Kiyoko, not that he just jumped an an opportunity. Kiyoko relationship with the champion is entirely different from anyone else's, she was starved for social interaction and it was either you or no one. Is it not strange that Kiyoko has no choice but to conceive a child with you? Why is this the exception? I suspect it is by Keros' design.

The narrative notes that everything regarding the two of you is unprecedented, it can't be chalked up to "no filler content". It is purposefully unnatural.
Honestly, this idea is interesting. Not the idea that Kiyoko doesn't respect you, I don't give a shit about that mostly because it feels like your vision of respect is based purely on the idea that you should get to choose who your daughter is marrying and you should get told about it, despite how the player's parents have no say in who they marry and do not get told about it and yet you're not saying that the Champ is disrespecting they're unseen parents. Seriously, I do get that it's upsetting to not get told about your daughter getting married, especially given how it's somewhat framed as "we didn't want to upset you" since that is somewhat patronizing, but I don't think this one singular example is enough to prove the idea, especially given how, as others have pointed out, she goes out of her way to include you in social events and traditions of her culture which she could easily have just not included you on, and how she's willing to adventure with you as a companion rather than staying home doing things which may be more culturally important.

No, what I'm actually interested in is the idea you have that Keros set this up in an unnatural manner to try to snag you. It's a very fascinating idea, and while it could be rejected with the idea that there's no reason why he would set all of this up considering that Kiyoko died around 200 years ago, it should be noted that fortune telling in CoC2 can have actual effects (For example, Ihzalti's good/bad fortunes impact crit chances), and there are several oracles (such as Hretha, who's vision of a special battle occurring in the Frost Marches sent the Korvus to this region) who can actually tell things about the future. I doubt Keros truly knew about you before you showed up at the Den, and I doubt he engineered things to trick you, specifically, into giving over your soul or something like that, but, well, we know of at least two foxes who can facilitate divination, those being Kiyoko and Miko. Sure, they use fortune slips, but still, it's a cultural practice that can get certain information about the future, particularly given the mechanics of Miko's slips. It could very well have been due to some different prophecy, or a prediction, or some sort of divination, but past Keros might have known that there was something important in the future, which could be a great benefit to him if certain things are facilitated. This potential divination could have been why Komari's age got extended too. I doubt he was acting maliciously, but he could still have partially engineered this situation, being guided by some unknown portent.

Of course, I have absolutely no way of knowing this, but it is a very interesting idea and topic. That said, it feels more like it belongs in the "Conspiracy theory" thread, rather than some fact. It's fun to think about, but not really knowable unless it's outright said/shown to actually be true. Otherwise the coincidences may just be because TOBS had a story he wanted to tell and so he just told it, and didn't think about how certain things may feel clearly designed from a certain perspective. He's very skilled, but nobody's perfect.
She also never shows any interest in your history or your culture, you are expected to consistently kow tow to hers even as unwelcoming as it is to you
This, though, is probably just because of the limitations of a blob protagonist. Our backstories are vague, and no past family is with us here. We're from far away, and the details of the backstory blurbs are only detailed enough to explain why you may have certain stat bonuses and skills. We don't even really have a defined country of origin, and players may want to headcanon certain traits and details for their backstory which the writing simply can not account for. If she asks for our history and culture, then what is purposefully vague must suddenly be clearly defined, plus there are ten different backstory options (none of which are detailed enough for them to not be at least somewhat blobby), so it would have to be quite a bit to account for and make differing text to match. And hell, even if it was kept constrained to the history of what you do in game, you may be like me where you grab the amulet and get back in the tavern's bed before the first night is over, having no time to do any adventures before meeting her, in which case your in-game history is a grand total of "a demon came on me" or you could be halfway through Khor'minos and have done all the side content, in which case so much work would need to go in to writing about so many details that just aren't worth it.

The point is, this is a limitation due to this game's nature. The Champion is technically their own character, being canonically pansexual and having their own thoughts and feelings, but they still necessarily need to be a blob which can not truly be defined. In the future, the people working on this may make a player character who is much more truly defined (hell, TiTS itself is a lot more defined in terms of player backstory than CoC2 already), and in such a game, defining aspects of backstory would probably work fine. But here, if a writer attempted to define the Champ's backstory further than a random contextual "Well, I was a noble scion, I do have some understanding of how nobility works" or "as a soldier, I know how to train to fight physically and can help you become a better fighter more efficiently than a mage who has no background or training in martial arts," the end result would be a bunch of players complaining because it breaks established rules.
 

Burnerbro

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On top of everything said above, from what we get to see of it, the kitsune tradition seems to diminish the role of the farther in raising the children to almost nonexistent, with the possible exception of providing for the family as a whole. So Kiyoko is actually remarkable for how much she does allow the Champ to influence their firstborn daughter, the most important child as far as those same traditions are concerned, and in how much more involved she wants the Champ to be in the life of their family and her den after she reunites with them.

When she finally draws the line and has to tell the Champ that as a farther-figure, a barbarian and a vagabond, he gets no input in marital affairs of the all important heiress, she goes out of her way to soften the blow.
 
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SmithEK

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Still a rubbish excuse.. seeing as both men don't deserve to be with Kinu, they barely know her. Though all this is pointless seeing as it's already been written and we can't change it.
 
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JBento

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You know who ALSO isn't getting much say on who Inari Kinu marries? Kiyoko. Because hot DAMN is she not pleased she's marrying a farmer. I pity all of you poor bastards who raised Kinu into Hime - you're going to have fucking NAKANO as your son-in-law. Sucks to be you.

@Wandara Is... Is that MORGAN?!

Still a rubbish excuse.. seeing as both men don't deserve to be with Kinu, they barely know her.
I have no idea why you'd say this. Kinu spends a lot of time at the Den. I don't know what the Hime-Nakano thing is like, thanks heavens, but the Inari-Hitoshi scenes make it very clear that they're not only super into each other, they also have a very good read on each other.
 

SmithEK

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You know who ALSO isn't getting much say on who Inari Kinu marries? Kiyoko. Because hot DAMN is she not pleased she's marrying a farmer. I pity all of you poor bastards who raised Kinu into Hime - you're going to have fucking NAKANO as your son-in-law. Sucks to be you.

@Wandara Is... Is that MORGAN?!


I have no idea why you'd say this. Kinu spends a lot of time at the Den. I don't know what the Hime-Nakano thing is like, thanks heavens, but the Inari-Hitoshi scenes make it very clear that they're not only super into each other, they also have a very good read on each other.
She gets engaged literally a few days after leaving the orb.. if that happened IRL you would laugh at the idiots. Obviously I prefer Hitoshi over Nakano.. actually I prefer everyone over that fool.
 

Burnerbro

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She gets engaged literally a few days after leaving the orb.. if that happened IRL you would laugh at the idiots. Obviously I prefer Hitoshi over Nakano.. actually I prefer everyone over that fool.
TObs seems to pay the most attention to introducing the period appropriate customs and overall characters' mindset for the content he writes. I can't help but respect that, even when those aspects make no sense or seem reprehensible for me, just like they are for most players who are raised in a vastly different environment.

Looking at the situation from the perspective of someone raised in the society like Kitsuhon, the logic seems pretty clear: Kiyoko allowed herself to take the Champ as her formal spouse despite genuinely thinking that it was a wrong thing to do (in a sense that it will be frowned upon and lead to a lot of social pressure on you both), just because she loves him so damn much, and because of the character's protaginist powers. It makes sense that if at all possible, she wants something better for Kinu.

In any case, arranged marriages are far from the most jarring part of "ye olden times morals package" that we get to see or told about, when put next to things like the almost ubiquitous slavery or the violence being the reality of life for most people on Svarra and that is kept in background while Champ&Co go on their merry sexcapades.
 
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JBento

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Looking at the situation from the perspective of someone raised in the society like Kitsuhon, the situation seema pretty clear
The totally-not-Japan society of the kitsune is completely whacked from an outsider's perspective. Like, Kohaku is probably the lowest-ranking kitsune, socially-speaking, in the Den, including the people who do nothing but move merchandise in the warehouse THAT SHE RUNS. You'd have to betray the Den or some shit to rank lower than Kohaku. Her parents are FAILED miners, and they rank higher than she does in kitsune society.
 

Evil

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She gets engaged literally a few days after leaving the orb.. if that happened IRL you would laugh at the idiots. Obviously I prefer Hitoshi over Nakano.. actually I prefer everyone over that fool.
Alternatively, we might understand why she did that.

Kiyoko was on the verge of becoming the head of her clan, a very influential and powerful clan in the Old Country, when she got trapped in the Orb. With her resurrection by Keros, well that presents a very serious problem back home. Especially with Kinu as her heir. Oh yes, Kiyoko signed away her rights for her position, but what about Kinu? What if she becomes a target? What if someone back home doesn't like that someone favoured by Keros has a daughter who might want that position one day?

Easy, protect Kinu by marrying her off to a scion of a disgraced house. Kinu is protected by the fact that few, if any, want much to do with the Kurokawa clan. It doesn't necessarily matter who Kinu is engaged to, the deflection is done.