We all know Nakano is the biggest Tsundere for the Champ
Not that much different without all the fancy titles they give you they still call you a "Dirty savage" but it's always in jest and good fun.
Something I don't understand about Kiyoko and the Kitsune Den
- Thread starter Dry Eye
- Start date
-
- Tags
- None
Look at it this way, if your rescuing Kiyoko chances are no matter what canonically, Kinu is the champs first possible child, now the thing about the champ is there a good parent, seeing her grow up to a young adult is something that the champ was hoping to be there for and as kiyoko said "something incredible valuable to you". It is a decent justifcation for the 10 years.
Why do I feel like thats Kohaku saying that lol.
V
vangersan
Guest
If you care about Kinu and Kiyoko and free them as soon as possible you miss 18 years of your child's life.
If you free them because "a god is asking younicely to hold your breath and have sex with a foxy lady" and don't really care for the pair you get absolutely nothing for doing a favor for a god whose whole deal is "equivalent exchange".
Hardly fair, but then again Keros is a kitsune and so he gets to chose what's what worth and your help was worth nothing he decided.
If you free them because "a god is asking you
Hardly fair, but then again Keros is a kitsune and so he gets to chose what's what worth and your help was worth nothing he decided.
It also stands to reason to ask why specifically 10 years I get that did it was for narrative reasons but what exactly are his plans are for Kiyoko and Kinu because other than another Den he could have asked any other Kitsune to start another Den, I am guessing this is spoiler territory and we'll find out in good time.
Because Kinu had to be 18 to be a character thats interactable in the game, just a rule. And it allows for a more interesting story(prettysure Tobs wanted to make her 16 originally for maximum trolling), also there both den mothers, there whole purpose is to procreate fast, like 1 and a half months normal pregnancy fast. Unlike say Miko whose at aleast it says on the wiki 360 fucking days so no he couldnt ask anyone else. Also it was her original mission when she arrived in the colonies all that time ago.
I never got the "consider you a piece of shit" vibe from any kitsune except Nakano, who pretty much everybody in the den thinks is an annoying weaboo who needs to pull his head out of his ass. Even Rindo, who has the hots for him (and is too good for him, in any case), goes "oh gods this motherfucker is going to perpetrate haikus at me again".
The two best foxes (Kohaku and Kurako) are actually super-happy every time you come around.
The two best foxes (Kohaku and Kurako) are actually super-happy every time you come around.
It comes down to the simple fact that you are an outsider. You are always going to be an outsider, no matter what you do for the den or what you become. You will always be an outsider and never one of them.
I would imagine that a great deal of resentment comes from the fact that Champion can and does do much that reminds the Kitsune of their collective shame;
It always seems as though the Champion repeatedly shows up the kitsune, either reminding them of their clan's shame or perhaps how inflexible they are. And they probably know that, and they probably resent that.
The kitsune who actually like the Champion, such as Kohaku and Kurako, probably, in Kurako's case, the Champion is fun. In Kohaku's case, it probably goes a little deeper. She's a merchant, she's not from the clan herself. She's as much as an outsider as the Champion, if not more so, due to being a merchant. A necessity for the survival of the den, but in the same way that fertilizer is necessary for the survival of crops. Doesn't mean that people want to be putting their hands into shit all day, pardon the crassness. Whereas in the Frost Marches, to be a trader or a merchant is seen as an honourable career, so for Kohaku, to have someone who treats her like another person is probably a rare job in the den and explains why she often spends time travelling the Frost Marches.
I would imagine that a great deal of resentment comes from the fact that Champion can and does do much that reminds the Kitsune of their collective shame;
- The Champion can defeat several individuals who defend the den, only stopping when they meet Komari and show the amulet. The key home point for the Kitsune and this barbarian (classical definition) kicks the door in and kicks the ass of several people, including the "Commander of the Western Colonial Garrison", which kinda shows how poorly the Kitsune might defend themselves from an actually aggressive attack.
- Helps resurrect one of the scions of one of the ruling families in the Old Country, but also helps produce a child marked for greatness.
- Becomes quite friendly with Keros, a rare honour it seems, especially for a colony that many in the Old Country would probably wish they could forget about.
It always seems as though the Champion repeatedly shows up the kitsune, either reminding them of their clan's shame or perhaps how inflexible they are. And they probably know that, and they probably resent that.
The kitsune who actually like the Champion, such as Kohaku and Kurako, probably, in Kurako's case, the Champion is fun. In Kohaku's case, it probably goes a little deeper. She's a merchant, she's not from the clan herself. She's as much as an outsider as the Champion, if not more so, due to being a merchant. A necessity for the survival of the den, but in the same way that fertilizer is necessary for the survival of crops. Doesn't mean that people want to be putting their hands into shit all day, pardon the crassness. Whereas in the Frost Marches, to be a trader or a merchant is seen as an honourable career, so for Kohaku, to have someone who treats her like another person is probably a rare job in the den and explains why she often spends time travelling the Frost Marches.
And becomes his champion potentially depending on the route you chose for your character.
D
Dry Eye
Guest
Eh, not really a reach the more time I have to scrutinize the Champion's relationship with Kiyoko, you actually brought something to my attention:
That implications here are even worse than what I proposed, maybe you are right and she just wants to keep the champion by her side because they are this once in a lifetime super duper energy source. In fact I do recall a sex scene where she said with you she'll never need another source of chi or something to that effect.
However I am failing to see the respect in that dynamic.
In no world is Kohaku more of an outsider to the clan than the Champion, someone who doesn't even have a role to play in the lives of any Kitsune children they father just because they are what they are. You can't be any more far removed than that, save for not being allowed inside the den of course.
Nah they are passive aggressive subversive cunts, an example of this is with Rindo who I initially thought I could rock with; that is until the point where she tries to play you with that whole puppet testing business.
Honestly at this point you seem like someone who just hates the content and will only take an aggressive stance, thats up to you do. You see every action they do twards you as being aggressive assholes,even though if you read what rindo says about the puppets is having an outsider who bested there entire upper cast beat these fucking puppets to kingdom cum they wont have to worry about anyone less then you doing it again, home invasion sucks man.
D
Dry Eye
Guest
She says it was just a test so they could see the faults of the puppets, and that would be one thing, but she requests you then outnumbers you so they could see you lose. They are embarrassed if you win, admitting they never thought you had a chance to begin with. Seems like an attempt to get back at you.
but I am reading too much into it when the content itself tells you the nature of Kitsune are to be polite but backhanded?
I am not hating on the content, because I think if this is what they were going for it is well done, especially considering the author has a slew of readers willing to wave off their shitty behavior and take everything the Kitsune tell you at face value. Don't you think it strange that they only start to warm up to you after you literally handed your soul to their god?
I mean if the player cares enough about Kiyoko to want to free her, as that plotline progresses it is assumed the MC wants to ingratiate themselves with the Kitsune den as a whole, and for the only path leading to that is giving up your soul makes it seem like the orb was cleverly laid tempting trap to begin with. That Keros played you.
If that was the subtext for this whole thing, then I couldn't possibly hate it. I am not shitting on the content, I am stating how I interpret the characters within said content as people.
But kinda got sidetracked, I wanted to get back to my original thought; which was the marriage, I left off here:
The incongruity of Kiyoko's (and the entire den's for that matter) values is what started me on this stream of consciousness. They are a group that is diminished within the grander scheme of Kitsune society, so if it is important for them to elevate their station, wouldn't they want their den mother to have a union that benefits the den as a whole? So they would no longer be shamed outcasts placed in the periphery?
Okay look, I can agree that the rest of the kitsunes are assholes, but Kiyoko is a fantastic wife and you have no right to shit talk her as if she doesn't care about the champ. What's the first thing she does when gets she gets free? does she go to thank her god who freed her? Does she go to her retainer who she's known since childhood and hasn't seen in two hundred years? No, she goes straight into the Champs arms, the father her children and the one she loves most. She spent ten years making a magic belt with Kinu that would protect your life in battle so you would always comeback to her. She makes Bento boxes so that even when she isn't with you, you still have a good healthy meal instead of some crappy trail mix and jerky. and if you go and ask her to join you she will drop literally everything to go tooling around the frost marches with you.
She doesn't do that crap because your just some super special energy source for her. She doesn't do it for her shitty arbitrary equivalent exchange laws. She does it because she cares. If you're failing to see that then you've clearly missread every scene involving Kiyoko showing her love for the Champ.
D
Dry Eye
Guest
No I was breaking down the implications of what I was responding to, this is my primary stance:
This part right here is not true at all in the slightest.
D
Dry Eye
Guest
How does she respect you then? In what way? You are an afterthought within your family, not even worth being informed of major changes by her own admission.
what are you referring to? The attacks are an effect of sequencing. and while not telling you about the engagement was shitty it was Kinu's job to tell you not Kiyoko. And depending on which Kinu you have.... yeah.
But Kiyoko -despite all of her social and cultural obligations- unlike literally every other kitsune in the game her schedule works around you. Every time you come home she drops what's she's doing to sit make tea, sit down, and give you her full undivided attention to have a chat with. whenever theirs a big event she wants you to be apart of it from big festivals to family meals She'll do anything to make you feel happy and comfortable. and whenever you want her in the party she comes running the moment you snap your fingers even while PREGNANT. She is at your beck and call at every hour of the day ready to do whatever it is you want to do for whatever reason whether it's fighting, fucking, playing, or even just cooking and she doesn't even question you. Now tell me which of you sounds like the pet in this description.
No because the bolvar elves will do the same if you take luminas and the salamanders with Navera, by becoming a divine champion people will respect you because your basically the gods right hand man.
She'll also cover your ass in most social situations(exclusing webbfox supreme with hime Kinu, she lets you go it alone there and deal with your soon to be son in law).
D
Dry Eye
Guest
I feed my dog and give her my time and attention too, I mean you have to be responsible when an animal is under your care, not everyone is cut out to be pet owners.
None of these speak on respect however, affection and attachment maybe; doesn't mean she considers your thoughts outside the scope of your interest in her.
Compensating for her dopey paramour in front of her friends?
I'll have to read this scene in question, although if you are talking inari seems like she mentally checked out of that engagement anyway.
The only thing Kiyoko is truly guilty of is being kind of a bad mom and being dangerously interested in dick. Also pretty much every companion comments that Kiyoko's primary interest seems to be the champion. There is an issue with culture shock and a significant generational difference, but she was locked up for a very long time so I think that should all be considered. You could make a good argument that she's not a perfect partner, but I don't think there's anything implying that she's malicious and uncaring. As for the family, only Hime seems to have a negative relationship with the player. The rest we aren't allowed to interact with and Inari seems to actually like the champion as a mirror to Hime.
This certainly doesn't sound like someone that thinks of you as a pet.
Attachments
-
Screenshot_20211210-051005_(1).png
Of course she outnumbers you, have you seen the puppets? They're cannon fodder. They, in fact, absolutely suck. They wouldn't be testing the puppets at all by matching you puppet-for-party, because puppet-for-party would just have you backhanding a puppet to pieces and they'd learn absolutely fuck all.
The BEST test result to evaluate the puppets would, in fact, be one where you demolish most of the puppets but lose, because that lets Rindo and the scientist see what are the weaknesses they have shore up and also what works so they have a specific strength to aim for, instead of what they get, which is striking a bunch of options from the list of possibilites and still having to run through the rest of the entire list without any guidance.
They DO want to see you lose, but it isn't because they don't like you. It's because you losing gives them information on the path to go down to better protect the Den in case a shitstain like Raphael happens to come by.
D
Dry Eye
Guest
Yes very romantic, when I say 'pet' I mean considering you as less than. She is a very passionate lover, but regarding matters of significance I don't see the partnership at all.
When do you feel your partner respects you in a relationship?
Yes she is an eager sexual partner and it is nice whenever you exchange sweet nothings, but none of that changes the fact she outright tells you that you aren't important in the lives of your family. That your perspective matters so little it doesn't even warrant being sought out. There was no empathy in relaying this information either, seemed pretty matter-of-fact to me, to remind you of your place as her consort.
The champion does nothing but emotionally capitulate to her and her culture, she has no interest in your background (meanwhile a young Kinu did). Oddly enough, despite all this equivalent exchange stuff Keros' chosen people love to bandy about, the relationship is absent meaningful reciprocity; you must just except being unwelcomed among her people and expected to just be satisfied because you have her affections. You have zero input on your childing outside of conceiving them. In what world does this sound like a mutually respectful relationship?
D
Dry Eye
Guest
In this scenario they would only find what worked to be enough wonders, not like it would have been a large variation to see what attack was effective. You would have lost because they harried you with numbers, very little value to get from that other than how much they need.
Look at it this way, you're on an epic adventure to save the world. You're likely gonna be gone most of the time. She's gonna be home raising the kids, taking care of the house, etc. At best, you're gonna stop by every once in a while. She's doing the heavy lifting. It makes sense that she gets to call the shots in regards to the family regardless of tradition.
It may be just me, but that read as a stereotypical "YES YES BREED ME~" doujin scene featuring an overstimulated/mindbroken/needy character.
(Note that I don't think she isn't faking her affection toward the Champion.)
"Vastly outnumbering your opponent" is DEFINITELY a tried and true tactic, even in the real world. One of the reasons the URSS won WW2 was Stalin's "quantity has a quality all its own" philosophy. It might even be sustainable, depending on how resource-intensive making a dummy is. But they don't do JUST that in the test: they throw a bunch of dummy variations at you, in groups of different compositions, using different moves.
And they literally can't do this with anyone other than you, because the entire point of the whole scenario is that the Den has abso-fucking-lutely zero idea how "the barbarians" actually fight when they're serious (because the Leothrans mostly avoid fights and the boreal elves keep losing on purpose), so they can't use any kitsune and they sure as fuck aren't going to risk revealing the Den to unknown outsiders.
Last edited:
Neither Kinu have negative relationship with the PC, they both very much care for there dad.
Because Kitsune have a labrynthen fucking web of Etiquette and the champ cant really teach the children that.
That and they didnt really care because while Nanko is a fucking shitter hes good at fighting, your the first person to kinda, beat the fucking shit out of there entire upper cast.
Again I don't know what you're referring to. I don't recall any scene where she say's you don't matter to your family or that your perspective is virtually worthless. If she does show me the scene.
I think its the whole, Kiyoko handling there education without any imput by you.