*RANT* Does anyone else dislike the Kitsune in this game more and more as this go on? *Spoilers*

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Emerald

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Jun 8, 2016
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*snip*
all of whom are assholes, with the sole exception of Kohaku
*more snip*
Rindo isn't at all an asshole you take that back. :U
Also Kinu literally isn't mad at all that you can't control the stupid orb timeshit and literally tells you she doesn't blame you for it so idk where the idea that she even IS mad at you/dislikes you for something out of your control came from here... but okay.

Also the Kitsune are Tobs baby so they're definitely gonna get more content, already are getting more content. So prepare for more fuel for your salt shaker.
 
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Alypia

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Dealt with the foxes the bare minimum possible, tapped through their woe-is-me weebery, headed back to Lady Evergreen and never spoke to any of them again.
And they are intentionally designed so that people who like them as much as you do can do exactly this.
 

Shadow Dancer

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Rindo isn't at all an asshole you take that back.
Also Kinu literally isn't mad at all that you can't control the stupid orb timeshit and literally tells you she doesn't blame you for it so idk where the idea that she even IS mad at you/dislikes you for something out of your control came from here... but okay.

Also the Kitsune are Tobs baby so they're definitely gonna get more content, already are getting more content. So prepare for more fuel for your salt shaker.
I like how you didn't even try to address their criticism of the Kitsune and basically told them to fuck off because They don't like the content you like.
 

Emerald

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I like how you didn't even try to address their criticism of the Kitsune and basically told them to fuck off because They don't like the content you like.
No I didn't tell THEM that, but you can kindly fuck off yourself instead of putting words in my mouth. :U

I literally do not care if you don't like content that I do like. That point was not brought up at all in my response, nor do I care enough to write a long drawn out essay in response to them but, again, okay.
 
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Shadow Dancer

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I literally do not care if you don't like content that I do like. That point was not brought up at all in my response, nor do I care enough to write a long drawn out essay in response to them but, again, okay.
You wouldn't have replayed to their post in the first place with nothing but youre feelings attached if that wasn't the case.
 

Emerald

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Alypia

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Not everybody likes everything, and that's okay. The quality and the audience of a given chunk of content are two different things.

Plus, y'know, this is a Tobs joint. He writes many things with the intent to be divisive, and the floofs are only the most obvious example.
 

king of tentacle

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Honestly, I do dislike the kitsune more and more as the game goes on, but it's less because of their attitude and more because of how bloated they are.
well since it seems they are the devs chosen Übermensch and have infinite plot armor thus making them completely unassailable by a corrupt champion
they've been given the preston garvey treatment* in my current playthrough i bypassed the tree in its entirety and headed straight thru the winter palace leaving the tree unbreached


*avoid concord proceed to diamond city!
 
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Salomon

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Honestly, I do dislike the kitsune more and more as the game goes on, but it's less because of their attitude and more because of how bloated they are.

Back when the sum total of our kitsune interaction was a lone waifu who gave us fun sex-dreams, a cute daughteru, some neat romantic interactions and an extra summon, I was good with it. Now we've got that, plus a main quest dungeon, plus multiple sidequests, plus two wandering enemies, plus a whole navigable multistory treehouse of like a dozen named and portraited NPCs (all of whom are assholes, with the sole exception of Kohaku), each with excessive reams of their own exposition about the kitsunes' very important and super tragic and totally relevant culture/history/religion/alcoholism, and also our daughteru underwent a mandatory offscreen timeskip and gets mad that we were a deadbeat timeskip dad and ends up with some rando hitherto-unseen boyfriend. And I'm expected to care about... all of this.

At this point, I care so little about such a large and aggressive chunk of the game that the last time I started a new character I literally just left Kiyoko's necklace where it was. She was the only good thing about them, but I ditched her because she's a gateway to so much horseshit. Dealt with the foxes the bare minimum possible, tapped through their woe-is-me weebery, headed back to Lady Evergreen and never spoke to any of them again. I hope to god the kitsune aren't getting any more content, because they already feel like a tumour.
From my point of view, when someone takes the trouble to write so much just to distill his hate towards fictional beings, he automatically misses an argument!
If I wanted to read long texts about why such a thing / person was the biggest atrocity to walk the earth since Hitler or Stalin, I would go to facebook, where I can find Yottabytes of it!

In addition, kitsunes are the kind of characters you either love or hate, because they are made to be like real people, with qualities and flaws!
From what I see, these xenophobic vampiric fluff balls are the most humanized characters in this game! I would say that the only thing missing from them would be the opportunity to change their negative view of other people (not that valuing their culture in the first place is necessarily a bad thing, but when you start treating other people badly for considering them inferior, this stops being pride and becomes prejudice) and a little family therapy to help with the emotional problems of some of them!

Kazuo has a serious complex with his height!
Komari really needs to learn to forgive herself for something that wasn't even her fault!
Nakano has to stop wanting to impress a bunch of snobs across the ocean!
Rindo needs a little love and learns that she doesn't have to be strong all the time! (She gives me a vibe of Tiny Tim from A Christmas Carol mixed with Katawa Shoujo)
Takahiro urgently needs intervention and forced admission to AA!
Hitoshi seems to be the embodiment of the generic guy!
Kohaku seems to be trying to escape the culture itself!
Miko and Mai need to mature and learn that their actions have consequences!

It is at least worrying that the least emotionally unstable people in this community are two nymphomaniac priestesses, a farmer with almost no personality and a saleswoman who is basically the idealized image of the waifu!
I don't hate any of them! Each is unique in its own way and we all have our own internal battles to fight! I just wish that at some point, we could help these foxes to overcome their problems!
 
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sumgai

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The Observer

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Rindo isn't at all an asshole you take that back.
Also Kinu literally isn't mad at all that you can't control the stupid orb timeshit and literally tells you she doesn't blame you for it so idk where the idea that she even IS mad at you/dislikes you for something out of your control came from here... but okay.

I like how you didn't even try to address their criticism of the Kitsune and basically told them to fuck off because They don't like the content you like.

Lolwut.

I'll address criticism when as Emerald pointed out, it's based on the actual content and not imaginary memery on the level of "ree Cait I AM A BIG STINKY BRAIN" and "this game is dominated by futa furries".
 

Shadow Dancer

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Lolwut.

I'll address criticism when as Emerald pointed out, it's based on the actual content and not imaginary memery on the level of "ree Cait I AM A BIG STINKY BRAIN" and "this game is dominated by futa furries".
It's not even about the criticism Tops it's about the circle jerk that has formed around your content.
 

The Observer

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It's not even about the criticism Tops

I like how you didn't even try to address their criticism of the Kitsune

Uh-huh.

it's about the circle jerk that has formed around your content.

So, calling out blatant untruths and the opinions based thereon is "circle jerking".

Dig yourself deeper into that hole, won't you.
 

Ossa

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Call me a late comer to this discussion, but aren't the Kitsune designed from the ground up to be decidedly unlikable and unsettling to those that aren't super into the particular fetishes they represent?

I mean, they're an invasive species from a historically xenophobic 'fuck you gaijin' period of time in an already xenophobia-leaning country, whose nature is not entirely dissimilar to vampires and succubi. And they are unrepentant about this, for the most part. Your initial conversations with Hinata in the Old Forest discuss this exact topic; they pretty it up and put ribbons on it, but the Kitsune are monsters that feed on the lifeforce of others. It's only their exceeding politeness and other rules, such as equivalent exchange, that prevents them from succumbing to that bestial nature.

I appreciate that, both from a narrative standpoint and on an IC level. I expect the question of the Kitsune and their future in the Frost Marches to be an increasingly major plot point going forward. But my point is...well, isn't that the entire point of them? They're supposed to be divisive.
 

Shizenhakai

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The point is that after reading what they had to say the only response emerald had was telling them to keep being Salty and thay got likes for it that's circle jerking.

No, that is one person writing something and then 5,7 & 2 people liking it. First Emerald pointed out flaws of the point that was made (5 likes), followed by rebuking your interpretation of that post (7 likes).
That is not circlejerking, that is an argument for the discussion followed by understandable anger about misrepresentation of the argument.

You can dislike the society and nature of the Kitsunes and you will not be told off just for your opinion.
You may get disagreeing comments and maybe even arguments that your opinion is - in the eyes of that person- is wrong, but you will not just be told off.

What will get told off, however, is factual wrong statements and false accusations.
What also could get bad comments is claiming Observers writing is bad, because the characters are unlikeable. In *that* case you will be told that they are meant to be divisive and thus the writing is (at least) decent, because the authorial intent comes across.
I personally think that creating a dislike is also a show of good writing, because I think that bad writing creates boredom.


More on topic: As said before, I take some issue with their cultural superiority and being flat-out wrong, since they are the barbarians and not the natives. =P
Also, the reveal of the nature of the living gods makes me way more salty than the Kitsune society. A xenophobic and arrogant society is understandable and human. The implication of the true nature of those "gods" is far reaching and ..unsettling. Also, it throws the nature of the soul and possible afterlifes into doubt. A bunch of sexy but rude fox-people do not.
 
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Sandeklaus

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Also Kinu literally isn't mad at all that you can't control the stupid orb timeshit and literally tells you she doesn't blame you for it so idk where the idea that she even IS mad at you/dislikes you for something out of your control came from here... but okay.
Honestly, the last time I interacted with the kitsune was yonks ago, and by the time I was catching up with Kinu my eyes were already half-glazed over. It's entirely likely I misremembered that detail, but doesn't affect my overall reception or the bigger structural issues with the kitsune. Not sure why other posters are jumping on you for correcting me, though.

Also the Kitsune are Tobs baby so they're definitely gonna get more content, already are getting more content. So prepare for more fuel for your salt shaker.
Yeah, I feared as much. You don't get content dumps like this unless the subject is a writer's personal baby. More updates not for me, I guess.

From my point of view, when someone takes the trouble to write so much just to distill his hate towards fictional beings, he automatically misses an argument!
If I wanted to read long texts about why such a thing / person was the biggest atrocity to walk the earth since Hitler or Stalin, I would go to facebook, where I can find Yottabytes of it!
Tempted to just reply with "tl;dr", but I might as well be clear: I said that I didn't like the writing surrounding the kitsune. Almost all of which is rooted in its structure, density, and (ir)relevance, rather than any personal animus. Whatever issues you're bringing to the table here, please work them out yourself with minimum trespass on Godwin's Law.
 
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Salomon

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More on topic: As said before, I take some issue with their cultural superiority and being flat-out wrong, since they are the barbarians and not the natives. =P
Also, the reveal of the nature of the living gods makes me way more salty than the Kitsune society. A xenophobic and arrogant society is understandable and human. The implication of the true nature of those "gods" is far reaching and ..unsettling. Also, it throws the nature of the soul and possible afterlifes into doubt. A bunch of sexy but rude fox-people do not.
I don't understand why the nature of the living gods could affect your perception of kitsunes, since from what we can see in the records, they have always been that way!
The Keros we know did not change anything when he took on the role of divine manager!

In fact, it is even strange that the world and cultures of Savara have changed so little with the arrival of what should be something extremely remarkable, but that has practically only affected a little of the peoples' religion! I think Nareva was the only one who still interacted frequently with mortals after the war, and so she hasn't made many changes!
Tempted to just reply with "tl;dr", but I might as well be clear: I said that I didn't like the writing surrounding the kitsune. Almost all of which is rooted in its structure, density, and (ir)relevance, rather than any personal animus. Whatever issues you're bringing to the table here, please work them out yourself with minimum trespass on Godwin's Law.
I could just write down some of the reasons why the way you express your opinion is that it is wrong, but that would be too ludicrous! whether others agree or not, it must be RESPECTED!)
The problem is trying to express it as if it were a fact, when you didn't even bother to find out more about what you want to criticize!

And although you have my respect for trying to mention Godwin's Law, it didn’t happen here, since he didn’t compare anyone to the Nazis themselves, but rather criticized anyone who tries to compare others to them, that’s why I mentioned Stalin too!
 
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king of tentacle

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They're supposed to be divisive
just like 2020

A bunch of sexy but rude fox-people
a writer's personal baby
stupid sexy fox people = master race

More updates not for me
me either unless some equivalent to the 3 sisters from coc1 is planned those girls loved tentacles almost as much as i do!

...or ya know i make a pure goody two-shoes pacifist of a character in the future
really my only beef(aside from brint/brienne;)) is the lack of corruption content down ole' fox way

also this has been reminding me of something and i finally remembered what
 

Sandeklaus

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And although you have my respect for trying to mention Godwin's Law, it didn’t happen here, since he didn’t compare anyone to the Nazis themselves, but rather criticized anyone who tries to compare others to them, that’s why I mentioned Stalin too!
Yes, my guy. That's what Godwin's Law is; comparing things to Nazis. Which is what you accused me of doing, and which anyone with eyes can clearly see that I did not.

The problem is trying to express it as if it were a fact, when you didn't even bother to find out more about what you want to criticize!
Right, I tried to express my disaffection with the kitsune plot as fact, with such factual phrases as "I do dislike", "I was good with", "I care so little", and "they already feel like". Very absolutist, very all-or-nothing.

Other people are allowed to dislike the things you like. That's okay. I'm prepared to bet a bunch of my fetishes wouldn't get you going either, but please stop trying to claim some kind of moral high-ground because "wordy fox-people" rev your particular engine.
 

Shizenhakai

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Jul 9, 2016
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I don't understand why the nature of the living gods could affect your perception of kitsunes, since from what we can see in the records, they have always been that way!
The Keros we know did not change anything when he took on the role of divine manager!

In fact, it is even strange that the world and cultures of Savara have changed so little with the arrival of what should be something extremely remarkable, but that has practically only affected a little of the peoples' religion! I think Nareva was the only one who still interacted frequently with mortals after the war, and so she hasn't made many changes!

Sorry, forgot to answer.. ^^'
Thing is:
If Keros would be an actual diety then I would have less issue with him having the soul. But he is not. He is a Soul-eating abomination that grew something like a concience and decided to impersonate a diety. He is not a (fantasy) diety that leads people to the afterlife and feasts on their worship.
 

Alypia

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Apr 22, 2016
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Sorry, forgot to answer.. ^^'
Thing is:
If Keros would be an actual diety then I would have less issue with him having the soul. But he is not. He is a Soul-eating abomination that grew something like a concience and decided to impersonate a diety. He is not a (fantasy) diety that leads people to the afterlife and feasts on their worship.
If the OG Seven existed, yet didn't return to save civilization from the wraiths, do they deserve this loyalty that you're exhibiting?

"Real" or not - wraith or not - who placed themselves besides the living beings of the world and saved them from annihilation?
 

Shizenhakai

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If the OG Seven existed, yet didn't return to save civilization from the wraiths, do they deserve this loyalty that you're exhibiting?

"Real" or not - wraith or not - who placed themselves besides the living beings of the world and saved them from annihilation?

It's less about loyalty. It is about the afterlife. With deities it is in doubt - but abominations *eat* souls. Also, they are not saviors per se, they are enemy defectors. Who claim to be gods.
I do not defend the "real" sevens, I dislike the imposters and the implication for the afterlife. - Though I would be angry against the "real" deities as well, since they did nothing to save the souls. It is one thing to not safe lifes or the civilization, buit the eternal soul should be saved.
 

WolframL

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Have you seen all the resolutions to the Specter of the Wyld quest?
Atheldred was a valkyrie, meaning she gave Lumia her soul. Yet she still persists as a ghost for several centuries until she's either exorced or moves on with Synevva. The fact that both are there even though one pledged her soul to one of the Seven and the other most certainly did not suggests that there's no real impact on the metaphysics of the setting whether one of the Wraiths-turned-Gods has your soul or not. It would tend to undermine the 'Reconcile over Ryn' ending if there's an afterlife beyond their ghostly one and they get separated again just because one is pledged to Lumia and the other isn't.

The Observer has pointed out that the Seven are bound by how people perceived their gods back when they arrived, so again all indications are that the metaphysical impact of the gods being Wraiths is a big fat zero.
 
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Shizenhakai

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Have you seen all the resolutions to the Specter of the Wyld quest?
Atheldred was a valkyrie, meaning she gave Lumia her soul. Yet she still persists as a ghost for several centuries until she's either exorced or moves on with Synevva. The fact that both are there even though one pledged her soul to one of the Seven and the other most certainly did not suggests that there's no real impact on the metaphysics of the setting whether one of the Wraiths-turned-Gods has your soul or not. It would tend to undermine the 'Reconcile over Ryn' ending if there's an afterlife beyond their ghostly one and they get separated again just because one is pledged to Lumia and the other isn't.

The Observer has pointed out that the Seven are bound by how people perceived their gods back when they arrived, so again all indications are that the metaphysical impact of the gods being Wraiths is a big fat zero.

I have not seen any resolutions, nor the quote, truth be told. Food for thought though, thank you.

I should maybe replay the game (and search the forum) to look specificly for information about the mythology of the world.
Not sure how much there is though, I doubt many people care for such things. :D
 

Salomon

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All this discussion about souls and after death makes me think, when we sell our souls to Keros, he explains that kitsunes naturally do not have individual souls, but a collective soul. So I wonder, what do kitsunes believe in relation to life after death? Do they go for a version of Takamagahara, Samsara or Tian?
What about other species and religions? Do the Orc or Lupine tribes go to Valhalla?
And Jassira's catfolks? Will they go to Jannah to be pampered by 72 Caits?
I know that there is Tira, the goddess of death and time, but what is her role? Does she reign in the dead like Hades, or does she just lead their souls to the other side with Thanatos?
 
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