Observation post of the Observer.

[Hokusai]

Just chiming in quick to say that the Rindo expac is truly wonderful, I think I got diabetes from it!

Also, the portrait of her with the child was the cutest thing!

Great work!

 

[Darkpheonix]

Is multiple bacon bits a thing or is it like Miko, a one and done thing? Also love the Rindo expac.

 

[mikethor007]

Is multiple bacon bits a thing or is it like Miko, a one and done thing? Also love the Rindo expac.

One-time

 

[Darkpheonix]

One-time

Damn

 

[Helia]

I haven't tried any of the Kitsune content yet, despite the pregnancy focus being right up my alley, mostly because what I have read of the forums has left me with conflicted/confused feelings about what I'm going to get myself into.
I have seen a fair bit of discussion about racism towards the champion, invading the wyld elves, de-emphasized player agency, and generally a more... nihilistic? Or depressing tone than I'm really comfortable engaging with in such a light hearted game. And then apparently your own daughter dislikes you and doesn't invite you to her wedding? I don't really want to play a story like that in this game.

I would appreciate some advice or information on what this part of the game actually entails. If the writing is focused on "subverting" "power fantasies" or whatever, then I'm not sure how keen I would be. I like being a good person, trying to help people and making the world a better place in stories, and I don't really have any objection to the "power fantasy" of such.

Perhaps it is all over-exaggerated or based on sub-textual lore discussions, and none of what I said is actually true.

 

[Tristan Black]

I advise playing it for yourself, and making your own decisions.

 

[Helia]

I advise playing it for yourself, and making your own decisions.

Probably the best answer, it's just really confusing seeing all these conversations. Not sure how much decision making is actually possible obviously. I just don't really want to participate in a story about my daughter hating me.

 

[Tristan Black]

It's not like that, and a lot of people on the forum like to focus on what they personally dislike, often projecting a little or blowing it a touch out of proportion. Play through for yourself, make your own decisions and determinations, draw your own conclusions.

 

[Helia]

This is good context for what is making me worried, and unsure if I want to engage with the content.

Some confusion about Kiyoko/Kinu content

Yea it's weird. If she's living in our shadow I'd expect more implications of it. Garret for instance is the perfect example of living under his father's shadow, he has a whole talk about it even, to the point it actually affects him, to the point that we see that it does and see that yes, he...

forum.fenoxo.com

Some confusion about Kiyoko/Kinu content

Yea it's weird. If she's living in our shadow I'd expect more implications of it. Garret for instance is the perfect example of living under his father's shadow, he has a whole talk about it even, to the point it actually affects him, to the point that we see that it does and see that yes, he...

forum.fenoxo.com

But then the more recent discussions seem more hopeful?

Something I don't understand about Kiyoko and the Kitsune Den

-snip- Maybe you're right that they both have the same affection for the champ but that's difficult to buy when one won't express it blatantly enough to where you're not sure if she even cares. I'm not saying they should express affection the same way but HIme Kinu ought to atleast be more...

forum.fenoxo.com

But the explanation that pops up isn't very appreciable or sensible to me.

Confessions of champions

it is a regenerative item similar but not the same as the mare's ring Huh, don't think I got the hood when I married her.

forum.fenoxo.com

I just hope there is some narrative resolution where-in your daughter treats you with decency, I'm not inherently against the idea of a portrayal of political marriage and archaic cultural mores, even if that seems tonally at odds with the large majority of the game. But I'm definitely not okay with the idea of your own daughter thinking less of you, and your own family deliberately isolating you from your childs wedding.

I also hope the resolution for the culturally reinforced racism and isolationist treatment towards your character isn't just "the state of the world" and a depressing and nihilistic outlook on how you can't make a positive difference.

Very much possible what people have stated is innacurate or blown out of proportion. I'll try and play the content when I'm able and willing.

 

[wery12345]

Using a forum as a decider on if you do content is not the play, try it for yourself and see if you like it is the best advice you can take. Kitsune content is and always will be decisive.

 

[WolframL]

I also hope the resolution for the culturally reinforced racism and isolationist treatment towards your character isn't just "the state of the world" and a depressing and nihilistic outlook on how you can't make a positive difference.

It should be borne in mind that the game canonically happens over the span of two to three months, no matter how much time passes in gameplay. That means there isn't time for your Champ to meaningfully learn all the intricacies of Old Country culture no matter how much you might like to, or to shift the attitudes of the kitsune and native Marchers towards the other. There are points when that will come up but it's understood that it's going to take time and you canonically just don't have enough of it to make that part of the story. Take a look at the full topic I linked for a bit more discussion on that.

As for the 'culturally reinforced racism' well, there's a reason the floofs are seen the way they are by not only the Marchers but also the non-Kitsune inhabitants of the Old Country and why they in turn hold the attitudes they do. You can get a pretty good idea of this from their codex entry, but this introduction Tobs made to Kohaku is a particularly good read that puts a lot of things in one place.

 

[mikethor007]

You can get a pretty good idea of this from their codex entry, but this introduction Tobs made to Kohaku is a particularly good read that puts a lot of things in one place.

Good thing that the only barbarian that managed to barge into their den wasn't that murderous. And in my case, quite amenable to the Kitsune despite knowing their true nature.

 

[wery12345]

Good thing that the only barbarian that managed to barge into their den wasn't that murderous. And in my case, quite amenable to the Kitsune despite knowing their true nature.

And is now knocking up all the females in there upper cast.

 

[mikethor007]

And is now knocking up all the females in there upper cast.

Almost. Kohaku and Komari aren't optrions.

 

[Helia]

It should be borne in mind that the game canonically happens over the span of two to three months, no matter how much time passes in gameplay. That means there isn't time for your Champ to meaningfully learn all the intricacies of Old Country culture no matter how much you might like to, or to shift the attitudes of the kitsune and native Marchers towards the other. There are points when that will come up but it's understood that it's going to take time and you canonically just don't have enough of it to make that part of the story. Take a look at the full topic I linked for a bit more discussion on that.

As for the 'culturally reinforced racism' well, there's a reason the floofs are seen the way they are by not only the Marchers but also the non-Kitsune inhabitants of the Old Country and why they in turn hold the attitudes they do. You can get a pretty good idea of this from their codex entry, but this introduction Tobs made to Kohaku is a particularly good read that puts a lot of things in one place.

Whilst the lore and analysis of the culture itself is interesting, the supposed timeframe sounds wildly inconsistent, especially with other planned content, the focus on castle building, and Savin's document plan for how the impact the Champion will have on the world will increase with hard work and dedication, that the player will progressively be able to make a more meaningful difference.

To clarify, I am much more referring to personal character based storytelling than the society at large (although I personally see no reason why that couldn't be a part of the game later, seems like a bit of a cop out), it's completely understandable that the world and culture itself has a rich history and a long time to develop, that change and influence on the world is nuanced and complex, and very much would take long periods of time much like the history it draws inspiration from (although I would say denying the ability for individual generations to make an impact on the world is overtly stifling and nihilistic, especially since this isn't a historical game with the same prejudices and educational gap). But that doesn't really address the game narrative and character/player experience, and how unsatisfying a stagnating and sterile story would be.

My big bug bear is the cop out for how your own family supposedly treats you, so I definitely hope there is some relationship progression with your daughter, and she doesn't in fact "think less of you". I understand the concept of the political marriage and the emphasis on historical congruity, but I don't want to create a family if my own children don't love or respect me enough to invite me to their wedding.
I also don't see any reason for the champion themself to not have any personal character agency or story progression in regards to their personal treatment, or any engagement with the supposedly much more problematic issues like the treatment of the Wyld Elves (of which my character explicitly is one).

 

[wery12345]

but I don't want to create a family if my own children don't love or respect me enough to invite me to their wedding.

They do, like thats the most obvious given.

or any engagement with the supposedly much more problematic issues like the treatment of the Wyld Elves

You mean the tree huggers who lost the spiritual battle to the kitsune without a ounce of blood spilt?

 

[zagzig]

Regarding the elves thing, that pertains to the Boreal Elves that follow the religion of the Old Wyld (see Hethia), not Wyld Elves which are separate. The spirits that make up the Old Wyld are, over time, being won over by the kitsune. This split in the Old Wyld is hastening the decline that begun with being poisoned during the Godswar and most of their followers converting to Lumia. The kitsune aren't actively persecuting followers of the Old Wyld so much as they're drinking the proverbial milkshake of a dying religion.

Also, there seems to have been a misunderstanding, you were not not invited to the wedding as the wedding has not happened yet and will likely not happen for years. Kinu and Nakano/Hitoshi are young and there's a lot going on, it's going to be a long engagement. (There are going to be a lot of misunderstandings if you piece together your understanding of content from other people complaining about it.)

 

[WolframL]

Whilst the lore and analysis of the culture itself is interesting, the supposed timeframe sounds wildly inconsistent, especially with other planned content, the focus on castle building, and Savin's document plan for how the impact the Champion will have on the world will increase with hard work and dedication, that the player will progressively be able to make a more meaningful difference.

You're not building your own castle, you're fixing up an existing structure that's been abandoned but not fallen completely into rubble and you have a lot of help to do it with, just as with the Temple of Mallach. Also both of those are completely optional and as with pregnancy content, some of it just has to get handwaved as 'it's a game, fun trumps realism'. As for the impact you can have, see below.

(although I would say denying the ability for individual generations to make an impact on the world is overtly stifling and nihilistic, especially since this isn't a historical game with the same prejudices and educational gap)

There's a difference between 'the Champ can't make a difference in X because the game happens on too short a timeframe' and 'the Champ can't make a difference at all' and when it comes to the relationship between the Marchers and the Kitsune, it's firmly a case of the former, not the latter. There simply isn't enough time to untangle the mess that is public (and not unreasonable) perception of the floofs as vampires who feed on your soul in the span of just a few months.

However, the game is going to have variable endings so it's quite likely that if you play in a certain way, you'll see the impact your actions have when you aren't bound by such a limited timeframe. We have the inverse example mentioned as a possibility for players who'd just rather see the floofs gone (at the risk of making a dangerous future enemy) so it's a safe bet that there will be ending variations accounting for the opposite where in time the two cultures come to accept one another.

I also don't see any reason for the champion themself to not have any personal character agency or story progression in regards to their personal treatment

But you can: Become a floof yourself and watch everyone in the den's attitude towards you change literally instantly. If you don't want to go that route, I refer you again to where Tobs directly says that it's outside the scope of the game. You cannot change the perceptions of a culture that is very different from the one the Champ grew up in overnight.

Also it should be borne in mind that while yes, the game could track how many interactions you have with everybody in the den and what form they take and come up with some sort of public perception tracker that changes how everyone reacts to you, that's not the kind of thing the game is about and it would be a huge amount of work so it's just not going to happen.

 

[Helia]

Regarding the elves thing, that pertains to the Boreal Elves that follow the religion of the Old Wyld (see Hethia), not Wyld Elves which are separate. The spirits that make up the Old Wyld are, over time, being won over by the kitsune. This split in the Old Wyld is hastening the decline that begun with being poisoned during the Godswar and most of their followers converting to Lumia. The kitsune aren't actively persecuting followers of the Old Wyld so much as they're drinking the proverbial milkshake of a dying religion.

Also, there seems to have been a misunderstanding, you were not not invited to the wedding as the wedding has not happened yet and will likely not happen for years. Kinu and Nakano/Hitoshi are young and there's a lot going on, it's going to be a long engagement. (There are going to be a lot of misunderstandings if you piece together your understanding of content from other people complaining about it.)

Thank you very much for explaining, this is what I was looking for. I'm glad to hear the genuine context is more nuanced. People definitely made it sound much worse than this on both topics. A lot of the earlier replies also weren't being clear on what was actually true. I imagine your daughter doesn't actually say she thinks less of you like that post I linked seems to believe. I appreciate the actual clarification more so than "find out for yourself" because I don't at all mind spoilers and don't want to participate in stories I wont enjoy.

Although I am still a bit concerned in that:

Your gripes with CoC II

Truly, Corruption of Champions 2 is the Dark Souls of Pornography. Finally someone recognizes our efforts.

forum.fenoxo.com

This post makes it sound like the Kitsune are looting treasures, knowledge, and resources from innocent people, as well as knowingly and willingly leading to death of deities and gods (you make it sound like they are converting unused spirits, and I haven't found an explanation for what deities actually are in this setting). Creating an oppressive global conquering hegemony, which obviously is part of the history of every human society, but isn't something I would willingly tolerate, especially in a overall more lighthearted, hopeful and positive world, or at least one where such could become reality and you can actively fight to make it a better place.

I am not a fan of TOB's insinuation about how horrible Savarra actually is in reality, that isn't what has invested me in the world and characters, and is incredibly off-putting. Evergreen hasn't done anything I would at all say is demonstrably morally evil, towards you, or anyone else in the story we have experienced, and I'm not convinced by insinuations. The Orc tribe feels unfinished, Arona feels like she doesn't have a complete character arc (her writing feels far too dry in general, and I want to like her), and you can actively free slaves and oppose the practice (something I would like to see more of post quest). I haven't encountered anything discussing a supposed slave trade in Jassira yet? I don't recall that from any Codex I've found either.

They do, like thats the most obvious given.


You mean the tree huggers who lost the spiritual battle to the kitsune without a ounce of blood spilt?

Neither of these are obvious to me because I'm asking for spoilers and help with knowing what content I am getting into.

You're not building your own castle, you're fixing up an existing structure that's been abandoned but not fallen completely into rubble and you have a lot of help to do it with, just as with the Temple of Mallach. Also both of those are completely optional and as with pregnancy content, some of it just has to get handwaved as 'it's a game, fun trumps realism'. As for the impact you can have, see below.

There's a difference between 'the Champ can't make a difference in X because the game happens on too short a timeframe' and 'the Champ can't make a difference at all' and when it comes to the relationship between the Marchers and the Kitsune, it's firmly a case of the former, not the latter. There simply isn't enough time to untangle the mess that is public (and not unreasonable) perception of the floofs as vampires who feed on your soul in the span of just a few months.

I greatly appreciate the info, it's good to hear that isn't the case. To further clarify, I am talking about the Champion standing up for themself and trying to be treated with respect, not tolerating discrimination; not actively changing an entire society and their cultural, social-political and anthropological history. Although like you said, there is no reason why you can't cooperate and push for a better future, try to better the world in the long term, or act as a mediator to improve relations between nations.

I don't want to play a character in a roleplaying game where they get actively treated with bigotry and aren't able to stand up for themselves and what is right, I'm not asking for a magical solution, I just hope the writing isn't passive aggressive towards the player.

 

[zagzig]

Yeah I think the main point here is the world is actually as dark as Observer is describing. The Catfolk codex entry does in fact go into how Jassira is all about slavery and trading slaves for money;

Not all catfolk live in Jassira, of course; in fact, the majority of the race may now be living in the former empire's territory. The sultanate was, and continues to be, one of the greatest exporters of slaves in the world, and these sensual concubines have made their way from the furthest jungles of the south to the windswept Frost Marches of the north.

Brint or Brienne talks about how the glory of Khor'minos is built on the slaves they take from war;

"Two hundred and fifty thousand?!" you say, surprised. That's more people in a single city than some countries have in <i>total</i>. "That's insane."

"Yup," she says, nodding. "A bunch of people tend to just come here and settle down, but probably the biggest reason is the slaves we bring back from our wars. Aside from cowgirl fertility, of course!" she adds, smiling.

Much, much hay has been made of how orcs treat their slaves;

Nobody's guarding the slave pen, so you feel fairly confident in approaching it and peeking through the slatted wooden rails keeping the camp's thralls enclosed. There's maybe twenty people inside the pen, mostly dirty humans mixed with a handful of bronze-skinned slender catfolk. They all look weary from overwork, clothes tattered and filthy. Tribe Kervus doesn't seem to take such good care of their labor slaves...

And regarding Evergreen, the biggest canonical source is Carmen talking about how she's fucked up, but if even half the stuff the devs have said outside of the game is true shit is dark there;

The Baroness's expression hardens. "Would that I could rid the world of Oxana's blight. Where Komari sought balance in all things, and I drew so fiercely on the light that it burned even those I cared for... that witch embraced the dark, sought to master it like as if it were a tool. What mad hubris! Even after all these years I can still feel her festering on the edge of my senses just across the river like a wound in the soul of the world."

What vitriol. "What did she <b>do</b>?"

Carmen shakes her head. "She did what she promised. I can say that for her. The power she learned to wield from Komari was such that it dwarfed our own. But gods, the cost...

So, yeah, on a grand scale, the kitsune are looting treasures, knowledge, and resources, and are looking to build an oppressive global conquering hegemony. But if you can look past the Khor'minoan bloodsports, Jassiran slavery, and the Winter City religious purge, Kohaku is so cute when she's buying reserves of iron and tin to send back to the glorious Kitsune empire.

 

[Helia]

I am not at all a fan to hear this, and not a fan of the dismissive attitude it's being treated with. The quote on Evergreen is far to vague and nondescript, and doesn't really help me at all, it would be frustrating considering how much I enjoy her content.

I understand the emphasis on world building, and I imagine the slavery aspect has some confluence with the fictional fetishistic kink that makes it trickier to write about (probably why the throwaway line in the codex entry didn't register to me as equivalent). But I don't want the Champion to treat the immorality of the world with a laissez-faire attitude. It's disappointing to hear Brint/Brienne treat things like that as well, I hope the greater context is less jovial.

Also I would appreciate some clarification on if your daughter actually says she thinks less of you, and if the Kitsune are actively killing deities.

 

[zagzig]

I'm just saying, if you're invested in Lady Evergreen being a morally upright or even morally neutral individual, you may find yourself disappointed. There's no fire yet but there's a lot of smoke.

Here is the relevant dialogue in the Engagement talk,
Hime Kinu

"As for not telling you directly... ah, I suppose there is no hiding it. Both you and Nakano have some degree of animosity, for reasons that I should not have to expound upon. I had not hoped to wish to have this confrontation, even if it was inevitable, and hence kept on delaying the matter of informing you... this is, of course, a failing that is entirely on my part."

Did she really think so little of you to imagine that you would get in her way if it came down to it?

Uncomfortable silence. "Yes."

Inari Kinu

I know I'm Mom's heir and all, so I've always been raised with the expectation of marrying young, yeah? I guess I didn't consider that it might be a surprise to you, since you wouldn't have any way of knowing. Sorry about that.

"And as for not telling you... well, I don't know why, I thought you'd end up as much against it as Mother was.

Nobody says "we don't like you", although there is a matter of a lack of trust which is sad. It is, however, one interaction out of many interactions you have with Kinu.

As for actively killing deities, the Old Wyld isn't a traditional deity so much as a weave of spirits grand and small. The Kitsune aren't hacking into the deity with an axe, they're winning over some of the spirits or kami that make up the weave and the division is diminishing the Old Wyld as a whole. They aren't actively killing the faith, but I don't think they care if the remaining sects of druids don't have power anymore. The Old Wyld itself isn't being killed so much as subsumed and rendered inert. To hear Hethia say it;

i>"[pc.name]... our time is passing. The Old Wyld is fading, and much faster than any of us ever anticipated. When we exiled ourselves into the forests and ruins, we'd hoped to endure for generations, prove to the Winter City that we could still be strong and rebuild from our losses, show them the strength of our ways and beliefs. Our own weakness did us in.</i>

<i>"Not just that, there are now foreigners from another land in the Frostwood. They have drawn the spirits of the forests and fjords to them, have grown their own tree to rival ours. Every day, the land slips away from us, and becomes theirs. The power of the land that was once ours is slipping from our grasp and into theirs..."</i>

 

[Helia]

More so some of her scenes have my favourite writing in the game, so it would be super frustrating if the story goes out of its way to make it as unpleasant as possible and ruin content for me.

I'm trying to comprehend why there would be a lack of trust, but that feels incredibly artificial and contrived, especially considering the magic time skip, not at all a fan of that. I hope there is more writing and resolution, and that the rest of the content is less linear and stifling.

 

[zagzig]

It's okay, nobody reads the author tags. Usually people think I wrote Tobs' stuff anyway.

Unfortunately as for responses, I can't give you much of one at the moment. Evergreen's definitely one of the three D&D alignment that has a capital E and is absolutely meant to give the kind of reaction you're getting. Unless that's your fetish, anyway. Suffice to say that the entire why and how of what Evergreen does is major spoiler territory but she has a substantial amount of planned expansion content. You'll definitely be able to interact more with her daughters in the future (especially Senja), both sexually and intellectually. Maybe you'll be able to stop Evergreen, if that's what you want to do.

Nobody knows exactly what's going on, but prepare for disappointment on the Evergreen front.

As for the lack of trust, at some point I'd just be copy/pasting the entire arc. And it's hard to make definitive statements because everyone disagrees about floof stuff, it's literally both the most loved and most hated content in the game. The good news is if you play the content yourself you'll be able to join the ranks of people who have opinions about floof content.

EDIT: Sorry for tagging you Savin sir

 

[wery12345]

Kohaku is so cute when she's buying reserves of iron and tin to send back to the glorious Kitsune empire

Exactly, now give her pats or perish under the might of her incredibly large ass.

And yeah like I said before, Kitsune content has and always will be the most desisive content in the game. Also yeah i'm guilty of calling savin stuff Tobs stuff and now ive been triple checking the writer tag.

 

[Emily Smith]

Why disappointment on the Evergreen front?? Personally I'm going to help her.. she is way less evil than other individuals (Kas, Alissah, imps.. not really evil but more irritating) scattered around the marches.

 

[Helia]

Why disappointment on the Evergreen front?? Personally I'm going to help her.. she is way less evil than other individuals (Kas, Alissah, imps.. not really evil but more irritating) scattered around the marches.

I would say less disappointment and more so concern, depending on what direction they take her. I like her a lot at the moment with her current in game content.

My comments are more so in regards to the idea of the entire world of the game having tonnes of immorality and just being generally depressing, that ruins the fun of the game for me if that is emphasized instead of the more positive storytelling and character building. I feel like I've covered everything else in the other posts.

 

[wery12345]

Your playing a game where the world is still recovering from a war that fucking sent them back to the bronze ages, a war that the gods manifested in to stop. Its not gonna be fucking sunshine and rainbows.

 

[Helia]

That's... not really the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Alypia]

I would say less disappointment and more so concern, depending on what direction they take her. I like her a lot at the moment with her current in game content.

My comments are more so in regards to the idea of the entire world of the game having tonnes of immorality and just being generally depressing, that ruins the fun of the game for me if that is emphasized instead of the more positive storytelling and character building. I feel like I've covered everything else in the other posts.

The cathartic moments in the game are the best ones. Kiyoko's content has one or two very justly lauded examples.