[Implemented] Akane, Space Mob Boss

[Amakawa Yuuto]

So, let's see...
I'm technically in the "forced loss scenes suck" camp, though not as extreme as Coalsack - I'm fine with the guys getting away, though I'd prefer it to be more a "desperate getaway" rather than the "cocky vanishing act" we get. But that is minor compared to the third encounter:

You consider retaliation. Invisible as they are, a swipe or a shot would catch them in this window.

They did submit, however… honor for honor. You instead put your [pc.weapon] in its holster and dust yourself down.

Getting away? Okay. But that is a stupid reason. Because they didn't do something stupid after losing to me, I am suddenly honor-bound to sit still while they run away?
I can imagine countless codes of honor that any given Steele might follow (including, but definitely not limited to "none") that would disagree.
I'm not playing my character as Judge Dredd, but someone out there is, and executing someone who runs after they lost would be perfectly in character for that. As it would be for anyone following a "vae victis" set of rules.
In fact, one such set of rules comes from Japan, which, for most of its history, considered anything but "fighting to the death" to be cowardly, so "valiantly accepting defeat" meant giving your enemy a chance to kill you, instead of faking surrender and then running away.

(That, and of course that the whole thing is presented as "Here's a side quest! Spanning multiple planets! Awesome! And surprise! Your reward is either being someone's bondage bitch, dying, or losing half your money, without any warning whatsoever! Hope you're into that, because it's either that or doing nothing!")

 

[SoAndSo]

Spoiler

Getting away? Okay. But that is a stupid reason. Because they didn't do something stupid after losing to me, I am suddenly honor-bound to sit still while they run away?
I can imagine countless codes of honor that any given Steele might follow (including, but definitely not limited to "none") that would disagree.
I'm not playing my character as Judge Dredd, but someone out there is, and executing someone who runs after they lost would be perfectly in character for that. As it would be for anyone following a "vae victis" set of rules.

Yeah, no, outside of self-inflicted troll options, no one is getting killed in my content.

Spoiler

(That, and of course that the whole thing is presented as "Here's a side quest! Spanning multiple planets! Awesome! And surprise! Your reward is either being someone's bondage bitch, dying, or losing half your money, without any warning whatsoever! Hope you're into that, because it's either that or doing nothing!")

Yep, as it stands. It's almost like you're dealing with a mostly-unscrupulous crime syndicate or something.

 

[Coalsack]

As I said before, if that keeps unchanged, it'll have Riya-size issues in the near future.

 

[SoAndSo]

As I said before, if that keeps unchanged, it'll have Riya-size issues in the near future.

And a surprising amount of people like Riya as it turns out.

 

[Amakawa Yuuto]

Yeah, no, outside of self-inflicted troll options, no one is getting killed in my content.

I'm not saying I need to get to kill them, but this is essentially "letting them go for no reason whatsoever". You might as well have written "Steele though about stopping them, but didn't because he still had to pick up the milk" and it would have been just as in character.

Yep, as it stands. It's almost like you're dealing with a mostly-unscrupulous crime syndicate or something.

And it's almost as if this was a porn game where you can assault a base belonging to the worst crime syndicate in known space and get away with it, so that means nothing.

 

[Coalsack]

But here, a even smaller niche is being filled, so it may make a difference. Also, why have all those issues when you can avoid them with a couple of scenes that dismiss the problem (check my posts on the prior) without having to "kill" someone.

And what made Riya unpopular wansn't the niche that she was filling, was her "plot armor".

 

[Xeivous]

Difference with Riya also is that she's very localized and you're given a very good idea up front what you're getting into. This mob content, however, is starting was just the idea of "maybe i should be a bit of a space-hero and track down some criminals" only to get smacked hard in the face with either getting a game over, half your cash gone, or a submissive scene by no fault and little actual choice of the player.

 

[null_blank]

why does anyone care about money in this game? just about 99% of you save edit or cheat anyways

 

[Xeivous]

It's the principle of the thing.

 

[Zavos]

why does anyone care about money in this game? just about 99% of you save edit or cheat anyways

There is a third option. His name is Lash.

 

[XBoxMaster131]

why does anyone care about money in this game? just about 99% of you save edit or cheat anyways

GUILTY!!!

 

[null_blank]

It's the principle of the thing.

I understand, but I feel that being the child of a trillionaire you should expert this sort of nonsense to happen. I mean, what if your entire crew was waiting to pull a Far Cry 2 on your ass?

 

[Chiyose]

Personally I'm in for the submissive stuff, but I also fail to see why people are disliking the whole unavoidable capture and unkillable gang member thing (other than their own principles and stuff). Think of it this way: if you do kill their members, they're going to seek revenge. This isn't the black void with their galaxy spanning network and disposable troops, getting captured under this condition (not that it'll ever be a thing) basically leads to instant death. Even if you manage to somehow get away (again, not that it'll be a thing), they'll be hunting you across the frontier and the core worlds and then they'll kill you. Doesn't sound like much fun, does it? Of course, you can also be a hero all the way through and bring down the whole gang yourself, without ever knowing who they are and what they do. Maybe you were wrong about them, maybe they weren't actually that bad. Or maybe, you'll just never find out.

Spoiler

It's not like they're secretly planning to bust a slavery ring or something, of course not! They're just criminals after all, another stepping stone in your quest to inherit your father's fortune and no more deserving than the bugs you crush under your foot.

It becomes very clear that these guys have a code of honour going on with them fairly early on in the quest, which is already saying a lot in the TiTS universe (with your average pirate killing and enslaving and all that). And they never even tried to kill the PC despite numerous occasions of them provoking first, not even after you're captured unless you ask for it. They don't deal in drugs, they don't deal in slavery, only taking protection fees from people like illegal goods dealer and cheats, who are arguably worse than them by a large margin. This behavior is very identical to the codes of honour real life yakuza go by. If that doesn't change your opinion on them I don't really know what will.

Now that I think about it, the black void and the host shukuchi fondly reminds me of the two gangster factions from This Is the Police, one is a an old fashion mafia with their own rules and boundaries and the other is just violent gangsters doing whatever that pleases them. Thanks for bringing up that piece of nice memory I have, intentional or not.

Also a lot of people seem to have mentioned Riya and her plot armour. Sure, not getting shot while carrying a wounded taur across enemy line of fire is kinda meh, but if you manage to live through the raid you still get the choice boot her. She's not quite at the unpunishable deus ex machina yet.

This post is all just my insane rambling, sorry that you have to deal with the terrible way I've structured my post, if there is any.

 

[Coalsack]

Nobody is talking about honor codes and so, and that isn't the main issue. The issue is the entirely unavoidable capture, as if a non-treated, smart Steele PC wouldn't be able to be suspicious about the whole email stuff.

 

[Chiyose]

Nobody is talking about honor codes and so, and that isn't the main issue. The issue is the entirely unavoidable capture, as if a non-treated, smart Steele PC wouldn't be able to be suspicious about the whole email stuff.

Care to elaborate? Because I just don't get why people are obsessed in the whole "not losing a fight" thing in a game where a good portion of content happens after losses.

If an escape option is added, it's very likely that most players will be clicking on it, rendering the rest of the content null out of fear. But does "I don't wanna lose" really justify extra content? As cool as it is thinking about the syndicate getting away (like they would shut themselves inside their base in the first place, not to mention the whole invisibility thing) and hunting you across the stars, is it really necessary comparing to what has already been planned if you go down the defeat path?

 

[Coalsack]

Many people doesn't enjoy rape scenarios inflicted on them. It's more common than you'll think, really. Originally, I only asked for a more satisfying "avoid everything if you don't like it" scenario. And yes, the nullifying of the extreme content seems logical, as I've said, it's very niche, and not enjoyable for most players. Yet those who like it are on their right to have it, but forcing those who doen't, between that, death or losing money, seems a bit unfair.

Regarding the money thing. There's people that gets their game-money on the traditional way, simply because they don't feel right cheating.

Actually, I'm not asking for the mob to be defeatable, only for a benign way to back out at the last minute, like most ill-causing choices have in-game. If the extreme stuff is your think, a tooltip should prevent you to skip it.

 

[Zombiqaz]

Yeah, no, outside of self-inflicted troll options, no one is getting killed in my content.

I think this phrase sums up the main issue with this content.

If you're not into Akane's sex scenes, then the entire quest line is a "troll option". The only thing keeping it from being "self-inflicted" is that the quest currently has no warning.

I think that you're going to need to come up with a way of marking this quest as being for people who like Akane's bondage/shibari content while still telling other players to avoid the quest or provide them with an out that isn't itself a punishment.

If nothing else, you could give a blunt 4th-wall-breaking warning to the player. Something like "Your player-senses tell you that pursuing these criminals will make you their enemy. You're not confident a lone rich kid can come out on top this time. Consider saving before going down this path". Yes, it's really awkward but content like this needs a strong warning.

(Maybe then give the player the option to dismiss the trigger if they don't want it because otherwise it'll sit in Tavros Station forever. Maybe phrase the option as letting the police handle it or something like that.)

 

[Xeivous]

Care to elaborate? Because I just don't get why people are obsessed in the whole "not losing a fight" thing in a game where a good portion of content happens after losses.

If an escape option is added, it's very likely that most players will be clicking on it, rendering the rest of the content null out of fear. But does "I don't wanna lose" really justify extra content? As cool as it is thinking about the syndicate getting away (like they would shut themselves inside their base in the first place, not to mention the whole invisibility thing) and hunting you across the stars, is it really necessary comparing to what has already been planned if you go down the defeat path?

The difference being that for the rest of the same type of content, getting into it is either something you bring on yourself or something you end up with by failing at combat. And the stuff that you bring on yourself is not so deeply buried in a side quest that gives little indication that you were going to run into this until the moment of truth and overall feels like a kick to the ribs for any player who wants to kick the shit out of some pirates and assumes that their previous experience with pirates in the half-dozen other times you can fight them thus far, would hold true and you'd be able to actually make headway and not get jerked around by asshats with fancy tech after beating the snot out of them and then getting jumped.

 

[Whimsalot]

Personally I'm in for the submissive stuff, but I also fail to see why people are disliking the whole unavoidable capture and unkillable gang member thing

Because RPGs (even smut RPGs like Tits) are power fantasys where everything revolves around the player and the player gets to make all the important decisions.
Whenever anything destroys this impression, either by not giving them the obvious choices/solutions to problems or just by ignoring player actions (like the victorys not mattering in this case), it really stands out compared to the rest of the game.

And a spinkick isnt exactly some unavoidable godly force and feels incredible cheap. Loosing to something like this after winning against the likes of Amara doesnt make the enemys look dangerous, it just makes Steele look like a complete dolt (not to mention that the build/euipment of the player is completly ignored here).

 

[Woeful Wombat]

I think that you're going to need to come up with a way of marking this quest as being for people who like Akane's bondage/shibari content while still telling other players to avoid the quest or provide them with an out that isn't itself a punishment.

I'm pretty sure there's been a warning since it had been pointed out and compared to Riya early on. Maybe you missed it in the doc.

As for the money thing, that is your last-second cop-out, no? The quest appears at level 7, money is easy to come by at this point, even without save editing. And consider a flight option. Would they really let you get away? Would the authorities really be able to do anything? The only logical option I see for you getting out of this wholly unscathed is to rambo it up and take out the entire gang by yourself.

What I could see before that would be an option to tell the police about your email and the shop they set up, then something along the lines of the representative getting arrested, interrogated and set free thanks to lack of evidence, ending up with you never seeing them again.

 

[Darkwarpalg6]

What gets me is you go through the trouble to set up a spanning investigation and multiple fights that have no impact at all, for the end result to be "nothing you do matters, but here, have a dom you never connect with in any way".

The content feels hollow and empty up until the point you get captured, at which point this triggers a few WTF alarms. You're effectively put into a loss scenario just by trying to get through this quest. In which your 'choice' just serves to underline your lack of control. Your 'no' option is getting robbed. And the other choices... I for one would not go back to a mistress who gives you the choice of getting murdered or raped. This is the most uncaring dom we've been handed thus far.

And (not intending to be rude) lastly the theme of 'always has a one-up on the player because the writing demands so' is in my eyes, weak writing. You present a player with challenges or choices they need to have effects and consequences both good and bad. Lest this game becomes the next Violated Heroine.

 

[Amakawa Yuuto]

Okay, another big(ger) post...
Last time I got distracted by the precedentlessness of the "the loser gets to leave undisturbed because he yielded" code of honor, and didn't make it clear that the point was that "they need to get away, so let's force some random code of honor on the player" is a poor choice. You shouldn't force out of character actions (especially of this caliber) on the character and player.
But pointing out problems is easy, coming up with (decent) suggestions is hard(er), and thinking about the... Questionable logic of "if they surrender, I have to let them go completely unmolested" made me realize that by the same logic, Steele should be allowed to just walk out of fourth meeting, as long as they surrender.

Which, altogether, made me think of an alternative flow for the events, following the battle on Uveto, in a way that should satisfy... Well, more people than before, at least.

Spoiler: Alternative flow of events

If you win the Uveto encounter, your character asks the usual questions for such a situation (who are you, who are you working for, and so on), which the two obviously won't answer because honor.
You then get the choice: Let them go, or press the issue. This comes with a notice that as important as honor is to these people, they will clearly remember your choice, so you stand to either gain their respect as an enemy or to escalate the conflict.

If you let them go: They obviously care about honor, and having someone like that owe you one because you spared them can always be useful. Also [Depending on personality: They seem far from the worst outlaws out there / You are curious how this will play out / They aren't worth any more of your attention.]
From a meta point of view, they get to run, you get to win because you let them run.

If you press the issue: You threaten to [depending on personality: Call the police / Make them talk / Kill them if they don't talk], but before you can go through with anything, there's a flashbang and some shots (which you later realize weren't even aimed at you, but still got you to dive for cover). A formerly hidden third member bailed them out, but the fight was already lost, so they just booked it. By the time you get up again, they are gone.
From a meta point of view, they got away, but you still won because instead of a cocky vanishing act, you forced them into an inelegant, messy, desperate getaway. Also, you were the one who escalated the conflict by getting the law involved/threatening torture and/or murder. Last but not least, a Deus ex Machina is better than forcing the character... well, out of character.

If you lose on Uveto, no change.


Then, for the fourth encounter, after choosing "Investigate", if you lost on Uveto or escalated the conflict by not letting them go, you get a warning that you probably shouldn't walk into [depending on intelligence, bonus for smugglers: the lion's den / an obvious trap] given [how poorly it went last time / with how much resistance you have to count on given that they're definitely going to carry a grudge against you now] and you can go anyway [add warning: this will end poorly], go later, or [if you lost: give up / if you won but forced their hand: drop the case, you have better things / people to do].

If you go, it proceeds as it currently does, going later only delays it, giving up or dropping it ends the quest entirely.

If you have let the guys on Uveto go, you don't get a warning, though you might still know it's a trap, but you trust their sense of honor.
Instead of pay money/punishment/die, you get the choice between "parting ways and never meeting again" without having to pay money - basically, a deal for each to let the other alone, they trust you with this because you've proven that you are honorable and you let their people go before, and it counts as "kinda-win", even if it's mechanically pretty much indistinguishable from dropping the case or giving up above (maybe more XP, but that's it),
Or you can still accept the punishment, which... Gets you the punishment, and maybe a better starting relationship with Akane or something, so even people who are into the primary content can get something out of sparing the guys on Uveto.

An event flow like that would satisfy all my concerns (the primary one being "my character having a sudden attack of nonsensical pseudo-honor insanity" - in this scenario, the opponent's honor is still a factor, but even a non-honorable Steele has a reason to let them leave), and I think would be satisfactory enough for people who want to win.

 

[null_blank]

I for one would not go back to a mistress who gives you the choice of getting murdered or raped.

Holy shit, I never thought about it this way. That's pretty

Spoiler

hot.

 

[Noob Salad]

Ya'll too dry to be riding @SoAndSo's dick like this anyway, smh.

 

[General Drayfox]

I don't like Erra's content because I do not enjoy said content, but said content is entirely optional. Change this content to suit me, or let me fucking MURDER HER.

I actually love Erra pls no bully.

Also we gonna get a future katana, right? Akane the Dommy, Crime-boss, sugar-mommy is gonna provide, right?

 

[Coalsack]

Absolutely nobody is asking for killing a NPC. In fact, the only one getting killed there is the player, so the murderboner goes to said NPC. The status of the random mobsters is unclear most of the time, because in prior encounters with the Black Void they're stated to be dead, knocked out or incapacitated, given the circumstances.

 

[Amakawa Yuuto]

I don't like Erra's content because I do not enjoy said content, but said content is entirely optional. Change this content to suit me, or let me fucking MURDER HER.

"Who cares about consistent characterisation? Let's take some random unrelated short stories, glue them together and pretend it's a game!"

See? I can do strawman arguments, too!

 

[General Drayfox]

@Coalsack
The murder thing was more about Riya since that was brought up as a parallel. Since it was brought up as a warning which, to me, kinda implied that it was anybody other than the (some) commentators doing anything wrong.
@Amakawa Yuuto
???

 

[Amakawa Yuuto]

@Amakawa Yuuto
???

You gave an exaggerated example of the "We don't like X, we want X to be changed" side of the argument, I gave an exaggerated example of the "It's optional, just ignore it" side of the argument.

 

[General Drayfox]

@Amakawa Yuuto
Apart from that murder thing (a callback to Riya) the example wasn't extreme...