Yeah true, way I see giving the soul is basically just a champ saying that this companion is the one they want to be with, to match with them to(at least if the way your own character says is, make the Kiyoko relationship seem less scandilous) race/lifespan ALA Kiyoko and Ryn who both have a lifespan that is longer then I think any start race you can choose. So you can have a justification there, but yeah the god TFs are really just for those who have found there bread and are keeping it.
Though I now get a chuckle that if you take luminas your going to both be the champion of winter and the Divine champion of Lumina.
Please mark the big bad spoiler as a spoiler in your comment. Otherwise, a solid point. Even if we believe that they were significantly reshaped by the roles they assumed and the beliefs of their worshippers in the centuries that past since the Godswar, the Seven are still sus.
Ignoring a regular war and atrocity to let mortals do them is one thing. But if they ignore a holy war or atrocity in their name, then that would be like giving it approval. In such a case I'd say they, specifically Lumia given we have confirmation of her letting stuff like that happen, are evil. They (Lumia) may not smite, but they certainly have no issue with their followers do some down home country smitin'.
In a society that is at least somewhat devout, most atrocities would be committed in the name of one deity or another, or at least invoke said name in the process. So as a reasonably popular god, you will never rest your smiting hand if you were to punish everyone based on that metric. Most of the gods featured in RL myths also went about punishing the people commiting injustices in their name in the most dickish way possible, since their main goal was to punish the impudent mortals, not to correct the injustice.
So I agree with Alypia that leaving the mortals for the most part alone is certainly not the worst option. I'm also just glad that the Seven didn't take the page out of the Discworld gods' book and made "lightning-proof" a requirement for being an atheist in Savarra.
Although that makes me wonder: what exactly happens to the souls of all the members of the 'normal' (i.e. not divinely linked) races who aren't devout in their worship or maybe even don't particularly believe in any deity?
I'm really curious as to what extent they do so for the regular worshippers? TObs mentioned in another thread that regular people's prayers to Lumia might actually ward off health risks and complications for pregnant and delivering mother ands the infants.
Do the rest of the Seven work in the same way? Like praying to Mallach restoring your tired pp and preventing STDs? (Which, for the record, I hope we will not ever see in the game; even the sexy ones, since magical curses are a much more palatable way to achieve the same results.) Or Nereva heeding an apprentice mage's pleas to make their mind sharper and allowing them to cram harder?
And going in the other direction, will the Seven be empowered by the religious zeal and sheer strength of the renewed belief emanating from thousands of mortals if and when Kassyra's invasion becomes known to the world outside of the Frost Marches and what would essentially be Godswar Two The Refuckening would begin?
I'm also just glad that the Seven didn't take the page out of the Discworld gods' book and made "lightning-proof" a requirement for being an atheist in Savarra.
Mostly because denying the existence of the divine, which although not directly observable for most people is still inferable through the many small daily miracles which people can witness in their lives, makes you the equivalent of a flat-earther.
You can not like the gods and say they're not worthy of worship; certainly Hethia's ilk believe that. But denying their existence is being willfully blind to heaps of proof as to their existence that one can directly experience.
Although that makes me wonder: what exactly happens to the souls of all the members of the 'normal' (i.e. not divinely linked) races who aren't devout in their worship
Nobody knows what happens to any souls after death -- or at least after departing the mortal plane anyway-- irrespective of creed. Pour one out for my ghost buddies.
In a society that is at least somewhat devout, most atrocities would be committed in the name of one deity or another, or at least invoke said name in the process. So as a reasonably popular god, you will never rest your smiting hand if you were to punish everyone based on that metric. Most of the gods featured in RL myths also went about punishing the people commiting injustices in their name in the most dickish way possible, since their main goal was to punish the impudent mortals, not to correct the injustice.
So I agree with Alypia that leaving the mortals for the most part alone is certainly not the worst option. I'm also just glad that the Seven didn't take the page out of the Discworld gods' book and made "lightning-proof" a requirement for being an atheist in Savarra.
They don't need to smite every individual problem child, but Lumia made a huge show of "Abandon your current religion and I'll help you survive this apocalyptic war." to the Snow Elves. At the very least Lumia could have flown down and told the Queen of the Snow Elves to cut out the atrocities they were committing in her name, practically on her own doorstep. There is a huge difference between an individual person or small group burning their neighbor's house down over religion, and when an entire kingdom starts doing it by order of the Crown itself.
Her forcing ("convert or be abandoned to die" is not a real choice) a societal religious conversion on the Elves in the first place, along with completely ignoring the bloody, horrific religious schism that happened almost immediately after the Godswar, says immense amounts about Lumia's character and the facade she presents that she is a Good God deserving of worship. She has shown through her actions that she doesn't care about anything other than getting more worshippers and keeping wraiths off her lawn.
Mostly because denying the existence of the divine, which although not directly observable for most people is still inferable through the many small daily miracles which people can witness in their lives, makes you the equivalent of a flat-earther.
You can not like the gods and say they're not worthy of worship; certainly Hethia's ilk believe that. But denying their existence is being willfully blind to heaps of proof as to their existence that one can directly experience.
Would atheist,or whatever the closest word Is that I can not think of right not, in this game not be someone that does not believe them as truly gods or truly worthy of worship? While, yes, they have powers far above anything other creatures have shown, they are still killable, not really that active in your day to day lives and do allow many, and I mean many, questionable practices that a lot of people may not look fondly off.
Also, I am not sure what definition of god is in that universe, but like, they seem to be more of high class magicians then really anything that grand. Like sure, we at most could destroy building and they can destroy a mountain (I know what differences that makes), but just the fact they needed help in combating wraiths and that there are seven of them (really hurts the image of gods if there are seven of you) makes them look, once again, a high class magicians. Which is what they are even by definition of their universe. Impressive, but not really godly.
They don't need to smite every individual problem child, but Lumia made a huge show of "Abandon your current religion and I'll help you survive this apocalyptic war." to the Snow Elves. At the very least Lumia could have flown down and told the Queen of the Snow Elves to cut out the atrocities they were committing in her name, practically on her own doorstep. There is a huge difference between an individual person or small group burning their neighbor's house down over religion, and when an entire kingdom starts doing it by order of the Crown itself.
Wasn't it some of her envoys that came to the Boreal Elf queen and made that offer? And were any of them present in the Winter City when the schism, the persecution and the exile of the old religion happened some tme after that? If I remember the timeline correctly, all of that happening right in the middle of the Godswar that preoccupied the already quite limited attention of the freshly manifested Seven.
You can not like the gods and say they're not worthy of worship; certainly Hethia's ilk believe that. But denying their existence is being willfully blind to heaps of proof as to their existence that one can directly experience.
What you described is exactly what Discworld atheism is all about, when it isn't used as an offhand joke - shaking your head in disbelief and disgust at the sight of hundreds pantheons filled by myriads of spiritual parasites soaking up the belief of people, lording over their worshippers and all the while being utterly useless and morally bankrupt. That stuff is part of the reason why for me Small Gods stands above even the rest of the Discworld series, despite being one of the earlier Pratchett's works. Carpe Jugulum hits some of the same themes even harder and more poignantly.
Going back to discussing CoC2 setting, an aspiring atheist there also can deny the Seven's claims to divinity, because after all what is a measure of a god? Or he can doubt the extent to which they really hold dominion over certain aspects of life and death.
That's one of the questions I feel like we don't get enough of a feel for in the game atm: how much the continued existence of the gods visibly manifests in the lives of regular folks for whom the worship of the Seven isn't part of their culture and who don't have priests droning about it every Sunday*. They are said to had taught the mortals white magic, but it is hard claim to prove since the power to use it seems to be coming from inside of each individual mage and isn't bestowed directly by the gods. They create Champions and bestow upon them many blessings, but Wraiths did that as well, and Kas is doing it now; more importantly very few people see those champions ofr themselves or hear more than third hand accounts about them. So it boils down to what I was wondering about in my comment above: if a regular mortal asks the gods for assistance and make an offering, do they actually intervene, even if it is in small ways?
*or its closest equivalent, since I realized I can't remember if anything in the game mentions Savarra having designated days of the week or weekly sermons
I believe when we die our soul lives on by implanting into a newborn child the moment our old body dies. I like to believe some bloke or in this case blokes and ladies don't have a say in my/champs life/fate. Otherwise what the hell is the point in living..
I mean, if I lived in a dark fantasy universe like the one Savarra is a part of, having some certainty when it comes to the afterlife wouldn't hurt, But we don't get to see or hear about any of it so far, so I can't even tell you which gods afterlife would have the biggest orgies and which one would be the most idyllic and peaceful.
Wasn't it some of her envoys that came to the Boreal Elf queen and made that offer? And were any of them present in the Winter City when the schism, the persecution and the exile of the old religion happened some tme after that? If I remember the timeline correctly, all of that happening right in the middle of the Godswar that preoccupied the already quite limited attention of the freshly manifested Seven.
It was Lumia herself, according to Synneva during the 'The Specter of the Wyld' quest.
"The Belharan goddess Lumia appeared amidst the teeming masses of the Wraith-touched, cleaving them down with her sword of sunlight. She gave us a chance to counter-attack, to secure our first victory against the Wraiths in half a decade. And then... then the goddess turned to Athel and gave her a choice: serve her, and gain the power to defeat the Wraiths, or to be left helpless and alone. Really no choice at all. So of course, my beloved swore on Lumia's sword to give the goddess her body and soul, to cast off the faiths of our ancestors and accept the goddess's sunlight as her own."
You do not interact directly with Lumia during this event. Rather, it tells the story of how Lumia saved the Boreal Elves during the Godswar and established her god-servant race of Valkyries. She appeared as the elves were at their lowest, hemmed in their city and condemned to die. As she repelled the Wraith forces, she made the offer that they could forgo the Wyld and dedicate themselves to her service, and she would give them the power to save themselves.
Following the conversion of Queen Atheldred and the leadership of the Boreal Elves, those still loyal to the Wyld quickly found themselves ostracised. Even Queen-Consort Synneva, sire of the royal line and grandsire to Queen Alissa and Princess Etheryn, found herself a martyr for her faith with the many of the royal harem. The surviving druids were driven from the city and maintained their faith in exile. Lumia had saved the Boreal Elves, but at terrible cost.
She should have done the barest hint of "Don't murder your own people in my name" when accepting their conversion, but WELP. You have to remember Snow Elf lifespans, as well. Atheldred and Synneva are Alissa and Ryn's grandparents. The Godswar and the schism are within living memory for the Snow Elves.
I'm not sure why this would be an issue. Most religious systems throughout history have featured a pantheon (monotheism is the exception rather than the norm historically) and seven is considered a divine or lucky number in a lot of places.
Likewise most systems historically featured gods who aren't omni-anything (except possibly omnisexual, I'm looking at you Zeus) and who can sometimes be spectacular jackasses, so if you were to pull someone from ancient Assyria, or Greece, or India or... almost anywhere and explained the Seven to them in broad strokes, they'd probably just nod and say something like 'Yep, they're gods alright'. So I don't find the way they're presented to be all that unusual.
The talk of atheism reminded me of lusamine, doesn't she have a couple of lines where she somewhat implies she doesn't believe in the seven, or am I being a dumbass again and misremembering.
Though its hard to deny they are gods when Kero's favorite way to leave in front of the champion is by absolutely ignoring the rules of reality and folding his ass out of perception in one of them.
To be honest, being an Atheist in a world with demonstrable gods is a little silly, but its not exactly like being a flat earther like some people suggest. Atheist simply means 'without gods' and back during the Roman Empire, they actually referred to the early Christians as Atheists because they didn't believe in the Roman Pantheon. In the case of this world, where the Gods are very real and actually interact with the world, the term would likely refer to someone who doesn't follow any particular deity, not someone who doesn't believe in any gods.
Words and their meanings are utterly fascinating at times, dont you think?
To be honest, being an Atheist in a world with demonstrable gods is a little silly, but its not exactly like being a flat earther like some people suggest. Atheist simply means 'without gods' and back during the Roman Empire, they actually referred to the early Christians as Atheists because they didn't believe in the Roman Pantheon. In the case of this world, where the Gods are very real and actually interact with the world, the term would likely refer to someone who doesn't follow any particular deity, not someone who doesn't believe in any gods.
Words and their meanings are utterly fascinating at times, dont you think?
Not really.. I'm an atheist in RL and no doubt if I was in CoC2 verse I would feel the same. Let's say the verse was real, who's to say their really gods? Magic exists, so whatever abilities they have could to contributed to magic.
Not really.. I'm an atheist in RL and no doubt if I was in CoC2 verse I would feel the same. Let's say the verse was real, who's to say their really gods? Magic exists, so whatever abilities they have could to contributed to magic.
Not really.. I'm an atheist in RL and no doubt if I was in CoC2 verse I would feel the same. Let's say the verse was real, who's to say their really gods? Magic exists, so whatever abilities they have could to contributed to magic.
Depends on how you define God really. Google defines a God (ignoring the Christian definition) 'a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity', which would certainly apply to the Seven.
Depends on how you define God really. Google defines a God (ignoring the Christian definition) 'a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity', which would certainly apply to the Seven.
Oh absolutely, the Seven aren't even close to that train wreck. For one thing, they aren't even close to being as vile a characters, but a character doesnt need to be all powerful to meet the definition of a god. In fact, most deities throughout human history weren't. Think about it like this. If you end up in a different world, particularly a fantasy one in a medieval sort of setting, they will likely have concepts that we dont understand and we have ones that they dont. For us, things like orcs, unicorns and centaurs are mythical, while for them they could be neighbours. Does that mean that said 'mythical' creatures dont exist? No, to suggest otherwise would be silly. Likewise, for us, Magic isnt real, but is it rational to completely dismiss the idea if it can be demonstrated to be real in this new world? No, quite the opposite actually. You could argue that 'its not Magic', but then what is it?
Its the same idea with gods. The people of this new world call these beings gods and worship them, they can demonstrate their power beyond any doubt and are clearly far more powerful than any Mortal could ever hope to match in their lifetime. With that in mind, what else are you supposed to call them? You dont have to worship any of them of course, but to deny that they are gods is as fallacious as denying Evolution or that the Earth is a globe in the face of all evidence presented to you.
Oh absolutely, the Seven aren't even close to that train wreck. For one thing, they aren't even close to being as vile a characters, but a character doesnt need to be all powerful to meet the definition of a god.
We see the Seven as a part of a pretty sanitized image of a world, if only by the virtue its creators's focus lying quite far away from gritty, brutal realism. If a pantheon like that existed in anything remotely resembling the bronze age Earth or indeed a work of fiction closely resembling one, then all the bets would have been off. The image of YHVH at his most cruel is the way it is for a number pretty good reasons.
For the rest of your comment, see the questions I raise in the comments above. And if you have already finished the Convocation of Mirrors quest or don't care about the spoilers, read Winter Rider's comments about the true nature of the beings that eventually became the Seven we know.
I mean expecting a purely good god is just setting yourself up for the disappointment. And no hes not, he exists to end all, and those who perseve him go fucking insane. And honestly the worst to me feels like the gothmanders, there like the brotherhood of steel for magic if everything ive read is being remembered right.
This isn't a serious comparison. The Cthulhu of "Call" would be what the Seven and their godservants periodically destroy: the odd unreconstructed Wraith slumbering in hiding, turning people mad in its vicinity, and threatening to awaken and start a fresh apocalypse. For all their imperfection, the Seven are not that.
I was asked why anybody would ever want to worship the Seven, and I explained why the people in the setting - and why the Champion themselves, regardless of lore imparted, were that their inclination - would wish to do so. I've also pointed out some fairly uncharitable readings of the text, when they've been made by people responding to what I've said. That's all. I've certainly said nothing about "deserve"; I haven't even characterized the Seven as "benevolent". And, y'know, there's a reason for that.
And honestly the worst to me feels like the gothmanders, there like the brotherhood of steel for magic if everything ive read is being remembered right.
I have no idea if that is the case, but if it is, honestly it'd be kinda justified. Like, the Brotherhood isn't really a good organization, but the core concept, that technology should be kept out of the hands of those who would abuse it, makes sense given that they're living in a post-apocalyptic hellscape caused by the abuse of technology. Similar could be said with gothmanders, should they be similar to the Brotherhood. Savarra itself is a post-apocalyptic world. Sure, it's in a much better state than the Fallout setting, but the Godswar was still essentially an apocalypse. It annihilated civilizations and drove others hundreds of years back in terms of technological progress, it made Bronze into the new main metal because the ability to produce Steel was lost with the Belharan Empire. That all started because of irresponsible magicians in Estelore creating a portal, rather than opening one which existed normally, which let the wraiths in. The world of Savarra is still recovering from the damage the Godswar caused, so of course those divinely chosen by the Goddess of magic would seek to prevent it from ever happening again.
