I love Kasyrra
- Thread starter Prince Thunder Spark
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Whether you're romancing Kasyrra or not.
Legit Mechanical Spoilers for Kas:
She doesn't have a traditional relationship score like, say, Helia, but instead basically every time you interact with Kas you trip flags that we track to figure out what kind of relationship you're building with her. If you've voluntarily fucked Kas and said yes in the dream encounter, you're eligible to start her Romance paradigm come Winter City. Compare with generally hostile interactions, like trying to kill her, or fucking her but not wanting to woo the demon in your dreams.
Will it just be yea or nay, or will it be a spectrum where score x produces scene y? (assuming this score takes all past and future scenes into account)
Something I always find unusual about modern media is how succubus are very commonly still portrayed as inherently evil or malicious. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that historical folklore about the mythological creatures was based upon the misogynistic historical facets of the time period. Much like how Medusa is actually an extremely sympathetic character who was punished by the gods for being raped, and yet modern media almost always portrays her as the villain.
I quite enjoyed The Witchers portrayal of succubus, in that they were genuine, multifaceted people trying to make lives for themselves amidst the oppression of feudal society and the stigma of their natural biology. But a lot of modern media still falls into the idea of enticement into sexual relations being some inherently sinful or repugnant idea resulting in the death of participants.
For a franchise all about open positive portrayals of sexuality and freedom of player expression, it is unusual to me that one of the most historically notable pieces of folklore surrounding puritanical historical societies wasn't adapted or reflected upon within the games, since the games go to great extents to show loving, empathetic, and well expressed sexual relationships of all different varieties.
I don't fully understand what the concept of the removal of a soul is either, as that was never fully explained in the original Champions, and I am waiting for a little while before I delve into 2 (possibly a certain liqueur "cough"), in the original characters seemed to still be capable of positive attributes even without "souls" (is it strange to me that for Marae herself, not being corrupted is associated with chastity, seems antithetical to the point of the games). I may be mis-remembering, but the demon Vapula, when a part of your party, does show glimpses of genuine affection and empathy, however fleeting.
Because I haven't delved into 2 yet, I cannot claim to have an accurate understanding, but I was under the impression (and hope) that bimbofication doesn't necessarily actually impact intellect, so depending on how it is written, whilst altering aspects of the Hornet's without their permission is still immoral, it might be more in line with the general desire to overtly sexualise those they come across, rather than the far more malicious concept of harming critical thinking or genuinely lobotomizing someone, which would make Kasyrra far less redeemable in my eyes. Curse my incredibly specific kinks about smart consensual bimbos!
On a side note, does anyone happen to know what endings result in the original champion stopping the aging process or otherwise staying in Mareth/not dying? Mortality is a fear of mine, so I would greatly prefer my original character living happily in a polyamorous loving relationship with wonderful waifus.
I quite enjoyed The Witchers portrayal of succubus, in that they were genuine, multifaceted people trying to make lives for themselves amidst the oppression of feudal society and the stigma of their natural biology. But a lot of modern media still falls into the idea of enticement into sexual relations being some inherently sinful or repugnant idea resulting in the death of participants.
For a franchise all about open positive portrayals of sexuality and freedom of player expression, it is unusual to me that one of the most historically notable pieces of folklore surrounding puritanical historical societies wasn't adapted or reflected upon within the games, since the games go to great extents to show loving, empathetic, and well expressed sexual relationships of all different varieties.
I don't fully understand what the concept of the removal of a soul is either, as that was never fully explained in the original Champions, and I am waiting for a little while before I delve into 2 (possibly a certain liqueur "cough"), in the original characters seemed to still be capable of positive attributes even without "souls" (is it strange to me that for Marae herself, not being corrupted is associated with chastity, seems antithetical to the point of the games). I may be mis-remembering, but the demon Vapula, when a part of your party, does show glimpses of genuine affection and empathy, however fleeting.
Because I haven't delved into 2 yet, I cannot claim to have an accurate understanding, but I was under the impression (and hope) that bimbofication doesn't necessarily actually impact intellect, so depending on how it is written, whilst altering aspects of the Hornet's without their permission is still immoral, it might be more in line with the general desire to overtly sexualise those they come across, rather than the far more malicious concept of harming critical thinking or genuinely lobotomizing someone, which would make Kasyrra far less redeemable in my eyes. Curse my incredibly specific kinks about smart consensual bimbos!
On a side note, does anyone happen to know what endings result in the original champion stopping the aging process or otherwise staying in Mareth/not dying? Mortality is a fear of mine, so I would greatly prefer my original character living happily in a polyamorous loving relationship with wonderful waifus.
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Not neccesarily, especially when some were of the opinion that incubi and succubi were one and the same, but taking a different shape to target whoever they needed.
At this point, I only wish to assume it's just a kink of a lot of people.
That still falls into the concept of sexuality being inherently sinful. I really like the aesthetic of succubi, so them so being heavily correlated with death is a strange idea to me.
In series like Dragon Age and Diablo, succubus and desire demons are portrayed as inherently sinful or evil, which makes no sense to me from a moral and theological standpoint.
It reminds me of this post discussing Lilith.
that makes a lot of sense and really opens up many doors. We saw with kiha they could be reasoned with, so perhaps Kassyra could even let us through if she likes us enough, and by through I mean past the dragons.
I don't want to get into this too much, but in Abrahamic religions sin and the death of the soul are intrinsically connected.
The bit about demons losing their souls in the CoC games is emblematic of demons losing most of the facilities that make them human. While not explicitly said, It's implied that demons lose their compassion, empathy, and morality. From what I understand, demons were not created from lust, but a combination of magic that actively destroyed their souls and rampant hedonism. I wouldn't say that Marae (and subsequently the Gods of Savarra) are the antithesis of lustfulness, because there are many characters within the game that have rampant lust, but are still seen as good and pure. It is more true to say that Marae is the antithesis of soul corruption and demonhood; opposing corruption is what she is known to do by the pure races.
I think it's unfair to compare succubi in this game to succubi in modern mythology. Within modern mythology, succubi are seen as creatures that sustain themselves off sexual energy; where Abrahamic religions correlate lustfulness with sin, and sin with death you can see why such a creature would be portrayed in a negative light. Within Mareth, succubi subsist on the corruption of pure souls, where souls hold the essence of one's humanity. Whether or not you see lustfulness as bad or good, succubi in Mareth and Savarra could still be considered evil as they take away mental facilities like empathy and compassion.
When you talk about the portrayal of succubi in other games, their evilness likely plays off the aforementioned preconception that sinfulness signifies the death of the soul. I've never played Diablo or Dragon Age, but I assume the succubi are seen as demonic man-eaters that corrupt the good men with their tits (and magic). This is more in line with modern mythology. The Witcher subverts these tropes by suggesting that the "evil" monsters were just regular creatures trying to live out normal lives not dissimilar to humans; succubi are not seen as monsters (by the audience), because a witcher does not see lustfulness and magic as intrinsically sinful or evil.
This right here, thank Marbeth this is happening Savin! I don't want to sound fangirly, but honestly I feel like this was made just for me based off this thread, this is exactly what I imagined in my ideas of future Kassyra content! And I feel doubly lucky because my main character ticks all the love Kassyra boxes! Whoo, thank you for sharing this, I cannot wait for this to be added! Kassyra love story here we come!
Thank you for the apt description of the reasoning and lore behind demons represented within the game, it helps clarify a lot for me. I personally wouldn't mind more discussion, or a source I could read, in regards to sin and the death of the soul in Abrahamic religion, and what a soul actually is in the context of the game; perhaps it is just a shorthand for the magical influence on brain chemistry?
But if said removal of empathy and compassion is true to demons, I have to wonder how people such as Kasyrra and Vapula exist (Vapula to a lesser extent).
My questioning and criticism is, like you said, much more based on modern mythology, which I find exceptionally strange. I love the aesthetic design and character attributes commonly associated with succubi, but have a distaste for the supposedly inherent immorality and murder. I am strongly interested in seeing media portray sexuality and sexually "objectifying" portrayals in a much more fleshed out and multifaceted light, rather than merely censoring or ignoring sexuality, insinuating that aesthetic beauty is immoral by its absence.
You are correct in regards to Diablo, however, Lilith was (and hopefully still can be) portrayed in a more positive light that was somewhat ruined by Diablo 3 and extended material. Essentially angels in Diablo mythos are shown to be very capable of immoral and flawed behaviour; most demons and angels lack free will, and fight each other due to their intrinsic nature.
Lilith and an angel Inarius are shown to want to escape the endless cycle of death, and make a life of their own; they are the parents of humanity, and Lilith is said to care deeply about her children. The Diablo 3 codex ruins Lilith's interesting aspects as described in the post I linked, but it is still possible they could rectify that in 4.
Lilith is said to be "the queen" and creator of the succubi, which is why I find the concept of the succubi themselves being inherently evil bizarre, as the established lore juxtaposes that.
In Dragon Age, spirits (and demons) are metaphysical beings that exist in The Fade, a plane of existence directly connected with reality, that can be traveled to via magic, dreams, and crossing the barrier called The Veil. Spirits almost all represent specific emotions, and whilst they have free will, they can be readily influenced and corrupted by humans they encounter into negative emotions as demons (or by their own volition, as they have the autonomy to be evil).
Desire demons are always portrayed as succubi esque figures, until Inquisition where they are omitted almost entirely, disappointingly. They are supposed to represent human desire, and have an instinctual drive to use it to their own ends, but my issue is that there isn't a spirit which represents the other aspects of sexuality or love.
I would like to see more modern media reflect on these aspects instead of imitating historical assumptions of sin and puritanism, whilst also avoiding censorship and omitting sexuality entirely. I am very curious to see if Kasyrra will flesh out the actual nature of demons and show that it isn't so black and white.
Separately, I would love the ability to acquire the succubi aesthetic without the inherent notion of evilness, but I haven't tried 2 yet, so that might already be present.
The bible, I guess. I would look up specific books/passages if you want specific information regarding that belief. I've read the entirety of the bible and I wouldn't exactly call it a fun experience. I think the definition on the nature of the soul varies between religions and even sects, however. There are also probably thousands of works you could find if you want someone else's analysis regarding the nature of souls as portrayed within the various holy texts. This is as much theological analysis I'm personally willing to go into on the forum for a porn game and I'm sure the mods will appreciate that.
(Unless we are talking lore of the game's theology of course)It appears to be an actual physical thing, as when the pure races turn into demons, their soul crystallizes from their ejaculate. I don't think it's ever explained exactly what it is, but it appears to have intense magical concentration as skilled artisans are able to create powerful magic and structures from it. It is shown in an ending of CoC1 that lethicite, the crystalized soul, can be reverted into its original form with strong magic and reinserted into a demon (who then reverts to their original race), albeit inefficiently. I suppose we may get a better explanation of the power of one's soul in CoC2 because there is a lot of discussion regarding the champion's soul both in game and in this forum.
It must be remembered that empathy and compassion can be faked especially well by astute individuals. There are prolific serial killers that used this fact when luring victims. It's also possible that the preconception that the elimination of one's soul vacates morality is false. Perhaps demons are crazed psychopaths under normal circumstances, but when confronted with genuine emotion or positive feelings can indeed feel empathy and compassion. I imagine this will be explored more and more as Kassyra becomes increasingly prevalent to the story. As far as I'm concerned, I would like to believe in her, however it's entirely possible she lies with every word she speaks. It's far too early to make a determination IMO.
I agree with this, however these beliefs are still firmly entrenched in our society. Unfortunately it's difficult to find a platform that allows the exploration of this type of thinking (fuck paypal).
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Demons are sociopaths.
Kas likes to make you feel good during sex cuz that's what she likes doing during sex. Otherwise I don't feel like there are any real instances in the game where she's particularly empathetic or compassionate; she's very explicit that she wants something from you (a powerful soul), and that's why she doesn't just chuck you into her sex dungeon 'till you pop. Even if you're a consistent dickbag to her all game she still has a reason to "nurture" you, so to speak, and guide you along without actually hurting you.
Course all bets are off if you get bad-ended, because clearly you weren't all she hoped for after all.
(I haven't read Vapula since she came out so I'm not gonna speak to her.)
Curious, that seems to juxtapose other comments you have liked. I wasn't attempting to say she was empathetic and compassionate to any significant extent, I was referring to the capacity for humanity, empathy and genuine emotion 1234567890van referred to on the second page. There is a vast difference between a predilection towards immorality due to magic, and the innate complete absence of any form of humanity. And from what I'm reading here, Kasyrra's actions (and those she has thus far avoided doing), doesn't come across as someone who completely lacks morality.
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The point I was trying to make was that she was written in such a way that she clearly wasn't the demon rapist sexpot some people might like her to be. The all demons are evil argument is inherently flawed in that evil is subjective. Alignment to good and evil is a spectrum, and to imply Kassyra has no personality besides "I like to rape and antagonize everyone for no reason" seemed false to me. I didn't mean to imply, however, that Kass wasn't a sociopath; only that I wasn't sure if she was or not. If Savin says that she is one I would trust him. We don't know enough to make a real determination from a handful of scenes. I'm sure things will change in various ways with the implication that there will be various routes. It would be hard to see the champion woo someone who has no actual regard for him/her.
I honestly dont really believe she is completely like that, I do remember one instance where you just cuddle her and she doesn't rape you or anything. From what I've seen interacting with her, she does have a sweet side, from her blushing to accepting the cuddles the player gives her. Maybe she sees that as part of sex, I don't know, but if someone wants someone else to feel good during sex, as you said kass does, than she isn't just out for her own rapist agenda. (Even if, correct me if im wrong, we've never seen her rape anyone yet) For a demon to care about other's sexual happiness during sex i i feel is at least a tiny sign she had some good to her
Huh. So she does have some morals, she doesn't rape. So is she really breaking any laws? Sure she likely knows she is spreading corruption, but she is doing it to willing subjects. She has more morals than most beings in tits come to think of it
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I'm not sure using corruption, a mind altering substance that makes victims do things they would otherwise never do, and then claiming they chose to is much better than outright rape, if we're nitpicking.
Not to mention she tricked a bunch of hornets into bimbofication, effectively lobotomizing on a large group of people against their will. While she may not be as bad as demons from Mareth, she is far from absolution. I guess she technically doesn't break any laws, but only because I don't know that there is a formally established universal law in Savarra. She is definitely guilty of suppression of free will: I would say that is at the very least morally dubious, and IMO it's pretty fucked up.
If COC2 follows Trials logic, bimbofication is left ambiguous enough where-in it might not be lobotomizing, nor actually cause any actual damage or intelligence reduction, rather adapting brain chemistry towards overtly sexually focused thoughts and predilections within critical reasoning, but not necessarily to any extent that suppresses autonomy or free will, or alters the individual personality and sense of self. Perhaps corruption in tangent with bimbofication is different, and forcefully pushes further towards mind control.
Kassyra from what I'm reading certainly appears to be immoral or villainous, but not completely devoid of morality. Heavily skewed and sociopathic by nature, but demonic corruption doesn't seem to completely remove those emotional attributes and forms of critical reasoning.
Kassyra from what I'm reading certainly appears to be immoral or villainous, but not completely devoid of morality. Heavily skewed and sociopathic by nature, but demonic corruption doesn't seem to completely remove those emotional attributes and forms of critical reasoning.
Whether or not this is the case, you fail to mention this was non-consensual. Though the point stands, I don't buy it. While the queen says herself that corruption gave them great power, the honey slime recalls the hornets screamed (in anguish) when she first started corrupting them. In conjunction to this, the bimbofication allows the hornets to go around the frost marches raping people with glee -- I doubt they would be doing that normally after the trauma they were clearly subjected to.
It's obvious they retain some of the honor and pride that is characteristic of Lumian knights, but if Azyrran is a good baseline for what the hornets used to be like it is quite the change. I would argue that it does indeed suppress free will when 90% of their thoughts are consumed by sex and lust. The hornets are of a warrior's upbringing; their main source of food is stealing honey from the bee race which naturally produce honey in raids. While warriors still harbor sexual desire, most would not be willing to abandon their service for it. While bimbofication doesn't work quite in the same way as a true lobotomy does (especially since it is hypothetically reversable), in practice the result is very similar: it disallows or reduces the capacity for regular emotions. In my eyes forcibly changing someone in such a fundamental way is quite clearly repulsive. To say this act isn't morally reprehensible is asinine in my eyes.
I'm not saying that her actions make it impossible for her to have morals, only that her having morals does not excuse behavior such as that. The fact she shows no remorse for the changes her corruption makes to people, whether they want it or not, does not help her case (as others have described earlier in this thread).
Bottom line is, while Kassyra is far from an embodiment-of-evil-mustache-twirling villain, she’s not even close to being some not-evil-just-misunderstood woobie either. And that’s the reason she’s a likable villain. To really appreciate Kass as a person, you have to take the bad qualities in with the good.
And here’s hoping the romance paradigm will have routes we can start tipping her away from the evil end of the spectrum and closer to the good end
I'm not disagreeing with most of what you are saying, I am fundamentally agreeing with your assessment of Kassyra. I still however dispute that the bimbofication on its own suppresses free will based on what you described, it certainly appears as if the demonic corruption is the main factor towards their outlook, mind control, and attacks upon others. I absolutely agree that any such act in a non consensual manner is morally reprehensible.
Part of it is because I really like intelligent bimbos with agency, so my bias is hoping that when I actually play the game, I don't get funneled. As of now, I dispute the concept that bimbofication shows similarity to something as horrific as lobotomy.
Again, I completely agree with your assessment on Kasyrra, I was referring to the concept that demonic corruption completely removes those emotions, morals, and critical reasoning (rather than just heavily manipulate it), and considering the entire concept of a redemption arc for Kasyrra being discussed at all, that is clearly not the case.
Perhaps I wasn't clear as I should have been. I wasn't bashing bimbofication as a concept, moreso as a mechanism to give the hornets hypersexual rape-lust. Seeing as bimbofication isn't a well defined affliction, the effects vary from source to source, author to author and even from character to character: Bimbo Steele retains a lot more of her combat ability than bimbo Kiro; bimbo Cass retains a lot more of her clear-headedness than bimbo Penny; Bimbo Mitzi becomes a lot less intelligent than... well, everyone; so on and so forth. I describe bimbofication as the Hornet's affliction rather than corruption because it represents the biggest shift visually and personality-wise. The hornets are almost certainly corrupted, just not as much as, for example, the centaurs, cultists, or imps who seem to radiate corruption. I have nothing wrong with bimbofication so long as it isn't forced -- I wouldn't kink-shame just to prove a point
Again let me reiterate that Corruption reduces empathy. And overwhelmingly increases sex drive. Degradation of morals and hyperhedonism are natural followers of that alteration, but not necessarily part of it.
A sociopath is definitely capable of acting in moral ways and using critical reasoning.
That makes a bit of sense honestly, slowly helping her be better or heck, even allowing her to act out her sexual fantansies on us, perhaps letting her bimboify us for a while or riding her penis. I do feel if we could help her with her sex drive, it could be a good way to start her redemption
Makes sense, i do feel kaaayra is very powerful mentally if she doesn't rape like other demons do...wait a second, savin, i had this thought after seeing another server, and perhaps for the
flags where the game decides on whether you are romancing her or not, one of the said flags could be how much of a demon, or how close you are to her likeness. Perhaps if you make yourself quite close, she would display some shock and intrigue, perhaps even see how much we care besides sexually
iconfused about why you would cuddle her, instead of sex, and she doesnt know how to handle being called beautiful, despite the fact she is very, very old.
I meeeaan, she's like 40.
Hm, interesting. I don't temember how long thr demons had been having the champions sent, but she must have been pretty young when they turned right?