Careful, you'll cut yourself with all that edge.
I love Kasyrra
- Thread starter Prince Thunder Spark
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Well then, someone needs a few doses of her loving body. Once I marry her I'll visit and you can learn what a sweetheart she is, k?
IMO from what we know so far, this is a bit like blaming Oppenheimer for the atomic bomb. From what we have seen so far, she doesn't corrupt unwilling subjects. Corruption gives immense power to those that wield it, and it's the corrupted subjects, so far, that have done the destroying. I think there is a valid argument to be made blaming the creator of WMDs, but personally I hold more contempt for those that would wield them. We haven't seen the entire story and it could be true that Kass does personally bring pain and strife to many.
Corruption (and nukes in our universe), however, seems to be an inevitability within these realms. I can't blame Kassyra personally for who she is. Whether she was corrupted willingly or unwillingly, I think it's better to judge those by their actions rather than by who they are.
I think it was in the character doc where it was explained that she was a priestess against corruption until she got caught and raped by mum? It’s not really her fault.
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Regardless, she is the catalyst of the subjects that have done the destroying and I doubt whether she cares if one is unwilling to be corrupted as a demon she has no empathy.
I don't think she lacks empathy. She just has twisted it due to her demon nature. We have seen her blush and keep in mind in every interaction with the layer we can deny sex, and she doesn't force us. Sure she isn't happy about it, but would you be if you were a lust demon? Personally I think she struggles hardcore with her sexual desires, and goes out of her way to find willing subjects. Heck, you can even cuddle her and sleep qith her, and she doesn't fuck you while you're asleep. Id call that resilient for a demon
What you think matters little: demons have no soul, no capacity for love, kindness or empathy.
They are creatures of corruption and lust that taint all around them and care nothing about the pain and sorrow they bring to others and your precious kasyrra is by far the worst and the reason she doesn’t force herself on the pc is because she wants their soul to ripen, for it to be at its most corrupted and powerful before she takes it from you.
I would be lying if i said that the encounter where she was breeding her corrupted imp spawn didn’t chill me and made me feel sad for the world that was previously demon free.
Remember what was to done Mareth and how the world and even its mightiest goddess marae are on the very brink of collapse with a lifeless desert covering much of the world with Tel’adre being the very last major stronghold to remain demon free, forced to remain hidden,when the champion arrives as a sacrificial lamb sent by the very leaders of her village so they can prolong their life and so the demons can escape and conquer all worlds.
Remember what was done to Urta: becoming the host of a god because of the demons slaying of taoth and the life she had to endure because of it, the demons caused her to have a miserable existence, her mother killing herself, her father despising her and later disowning her the demons caused that albeit indirectly.
The destruction of amity’s entire village? Demons did that.
Kiha’s transformation into a false dragon when she formerly was a Lizan?drmons did that simply because they wanted a sex toys and elite warriors.
Many have already suffered similar fates and many more will continue to suffer such fates in this new world of for as long Kasyrra lives.
I despise kasyrra and her ilk and will greatly enjoy purging them from this world as I did from Mareth.
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I would be careful of generalizations like that. There is no doubt that demons are much more prone to psychopathy than humans are. Everything you wrote proves that. Its impossible to argue that Kassyra is a perfect being that has never hurt a soul. But in the statement "all demons are evil", replace demons with any other group of beings and the argument breaks down.
In video games, there are many games revolving around "kill all the Nazis," because it's undeniable that Nazis did horrible, evil things. I hate to go to this comparison, but it's the easiest one to make parallels to. In any case, my guess is that Nazi foot soldier #30091 may not have agreed with the evil things that went on; he was a soldier and his job was to fight. This does not excuse any atrocities he may have committed, but it's unfair to say all Nazis are evil and lack empathy etc. Imperfect beings (humans, and in this universe, demons) are perfectly capable of doing horrible things; in many cases this does not mean that they lack empathy.
Now let's bring this back to the statement "all demons are evil". As stated before: burning down villages/killing innocent people/ruining peoples lives is undeniably evil. Kassyra is far from good knowing that what she brings with her could do all those things, but the important distinction to make is: does she do any of it herself? From what we see, she does not burn down villages, she does not slaughter innocent people, and she does not rape the unwilling. From what we know of her power, she could do all of those things until the ground is painted crimson in both corruption and blood and no one could stop her, but she doesn't do that. She clearly has higher motives than what you claim demons exist for.
While there is little evidence that Kass is empathetic, kind, or capable of love, I think the argument could be made for either side. The one thing there is evidence of within her dialogue is humanity and genuine emotion - two things that are hard to fake and even harder to bring across in writing. I believe Savin portrays her as gray for a reason, and that gray-ness is clearly why dichotomy like this can exist. The one thing humans are the best at is doing things equally right and wrong, and I think we will continue to see humanity from her as the story progresses.
What do you mean? Kasyrra is a pure sinnamon roll who did nothing wrong~ uwu
In all seriousness, you do realize people have more than 1 or 2 dimensions, right? No one in this thread is woobifying her or whatever; we just appreciate her not being yet another mustache-twirling villain who does jack shit and postures around like Lethice in the original game. It’s just nice to see a more human side of her and that’s what draws the majority here to her as a character. As mentioned, she’s evil for sure but also seems to have very contradictory desires. I’ve remarked myself elsewhere that it seems like some part of her actually WANTS to be defeated because of backstory reasons that I won’t discuss here but it’s easy enough to dig out if you want to go doc diving.
You are free to have your opinion and hate her, but I am under the impression you didn’t bother reading this thread at all because the nuances of her character have been discussed fairly extensively (and even pouring out in other places for a little while).
EDIT: Also, being unable to empathize does not equate to being a terrible evil person. You don’t NEED empathy to be a decent person, as my various low empathy friends have demonstrated on numerous occasions. Of course succumbing to hedonism isn’t good no matter what, but that’s a side effect of corruption.
Gonna spoiler some Big Deep Lore stuff
Kasyrra, while part of the original tribe of human mages that got stranded in Mareth, did NOT become a demon willingly and actually tried to fight them and help the native inhabitants fight them. But she was finally caught by her mom, and through a long and fucked up process of corruption involving an endless cycle of incestuous rape, she became the demon we know now and turned to a twisted version of herself.
There’s a lot more I didn’t cover but gotta leave SOMETHING, lol.
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That is a very spoiler heavy comment and it should be marked as such, since this info is not even on the game yet
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Sigh. Sorry, I tried to be discreet about things only found in the lore documents.
Also, trying to convince a hater is even more pointless than trying to blunt the edge of a creepy fanboy with redemption fantasies. Better to just lock this topic before the toxicity gets any worse.
Also, trying to convince a hater is even more pointless than trying to blunt the edge of a creepy fanboy with redemption fantasies. Better to just lock this topic before the toxicity gets any worse.
Perhaps, but I would say this topic is still worth discussing either way. Over a thousand people have visited this thread; if even one person was convinced to think a little deeper then I would say it's worth it.
Does that make any of her actions acceptable? Maybe she hasn’t destroyed villages, slaughtered innocent people or raped the unwilling or maybe she has and I’m far more inclined to believe she has burned those that have dared to resist her to ashes.
But I suppose we will see, won’t we?
The fact still remains that she is the source of all the evils, pains and corruption that have invaded this world and her motivations and goals are irrelevant to me.
I despise kasyrra and will kill her.
Enjoy her poisoned fruits and damn the world to corruption while I kill her and Save it.
Agree to disagree and all that.
And I’ll say no more on this matter.
But I suppose we will see, won’t we?
The fact still remains that she is the source of all the evils, pains and corruption that have invaded this world and her motivations and goals are irrelevant to me.
I despise kasyrra and will kill her.
Enjoy her poisoned fruits and damn the world to corruption while I kill her and Save it.
Agree to disagree and all that.
And I’ll say no more on this matter.
Wow, you actually went there. You sure you’re not a Male Human Paladin(TM)?
I would say something about how a subject of interest for everyone with Kass (and likely what Savin is trying to accomplish with her) is if there’s any shred of her old humanity that can be saved and thus we can save Savarra by saving the person she used to be.
But apparently this game is SRS BIZNESS to you and somehow wanting to kill a stupid video game villain gives you some kind of moral high ground over anyone who likes the character so I’m not going to waste any more effort on this.
So ANYWAYS. Kassyra is a very fascinating character to dissect and I look forward to more content on her by Savin and we get a good redemption route.
What actions? You can believe whatever you like, but the fact remains that there is no evidence of her committing any atrocities. If you mean hypothetical future actions, then no, of course not; I reiterated the fact that the actions of the demons in CoC1 were despicable and evil. If Kassyra did those things they would still be despicable and evil. You are attributing the evils of the demon army to a single soldier who (based on her opinion of Lethice) clearly had some disdain for her leader and/or the army.
If you truly believe that then you haven't been paying much attention. There are mercenaries, orcs, and harpies raping and robbing innocent villagers in the foothills; there are kitsune in the forest that, despite their "equal trade" code and superiority complex, rape passerby's and steal their life force; there is a despotic queen in Winter City plotting who knows what. Savarra was clearly a flawed place long before Kassyra arrived - this was no utopia. Clearly Kassyra won't be making things more stable, but there is evidence of her improving the lives of those she comes across (albeit in a less than perfect way). Despite the monkey's paw-like effects corruption comes with, Kassyra saves a dying alraune that clearly had no hope without her. She breathes new life into the hive of a hornet's nest which is vying for control in a forest dominated by lupine lumberjacks. She helps a stagnating Winter City accomplish... whatever it's trying to do and become powerful once again after their god abandoned them. You can call these groups evil all you want, and perhaps they are; at the same time they were downtrodden by more powerful species and unfortunate circumstances which Kassyra helped them escape from.
If you think there will be an ending as black and white as this, I have a feeling you'll be disappointed. From what I can gather, CoC1 ended the way it did because the team was rushing to move on to a new project. CoC2 doesn't elaborate on the ending much, saying the heroine continued to fight the demons to extinction. The "happily ever after" thing seems like a bit of a cop-out.
That's alright. These things are fun to thing about, stubbornness notwithstanding.
None of these are true.
1. The alraune was explicitly created by Kasyrra as a warm-up.
2. She told Queen Nyzerrah that she would help the hornets make all the honey they needed to feed themselves, instead of having to steal it from bees -- without telling them it would turn them all into brainless bimbos.
3. WDYM, Lumia is still very much the patron deity of the winter city and alive.
It's a testament to the writing that team Kas can be very much affably evil.
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A direct quote from the alraune: "Until Kasyrra came to me, this glade was the only world I had ever dreamed of. Perhaps I was planted here by some capricious fey, or my seed travelled far in the talons of some beast. I don't know. This is where I sprouted, and this will be where I die. Be it by your hand or the ravages of time."
Perhaps the intention was not helplessness, but I certainly extrapolated helplessness from this line.
A direct quote from Hethia: "Pale elves used to be virtuous, strong, hard-working, and just. Not anymore. The pale elves born of the Godswar were a fickle bunch, interested in frivolous sex, in spacious entertainments, in spectator sports. We have almost no literary works from that period; they appeared to be uninterested in producing any. Nor did they care to breed and form families to replace the dead from the war. The whole society was a wreck."
Unless Hethia is wrong or lying, Lumia does not seem to be doing much good for Winter City. Lumia abandoning them was perhaps an overstatement, but that was mostly due to mis-remembering the exact text.
I'll admit that the hornet one was mostly guesswork. I haven't played through that quest as I wasn't very interested in them. The point I was trying to make was the hornets were not in a place of superiority before Kassyra came. Not telling them about the bimbo stuff is certainly morally repugnant, but I feel this is partially a case of only hearing one side. If a literal demon walks up and offers a deal with the devil and they accepted without question, the matter of consequences didn't much occur to them.
I would never doubt that. My entire dissertation was about Kassyra's duality: that the corruption she brings is clearly evil, but there is more to her than just the evil-ness. I am very much on the fence regarding what I think about Kassyra, but I do love playing devil's advocate. Whether or not Kass's intention was to help, she arguably improved their lives. At the cost of others? Most likely, but then again it's unclear who or what Kassyra cares about in the first place.
Helplessness? Arguably simple peace and content existence. Certainly not provocation into aggression and delusions of grandeur.
I would know, because I wrote that quote. Hethia is a druidess, a stuck-up bitch who has everything to gain by demeaning the new religious regime that happened to replace hers and remove her faction from their privileged position that they had recently (by elf standards) enjoyed in society.
You'll be able to see more of what is actually happening first-hand when we finish the Winter City, which we hope to have playable by the end of winter.
They have arguably the only coordinated armed force of all the natural denizens of the Old Forest and were employing it to raid others as per their codex.
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What I'm getting at is that unlike the previous games, one should be very, very careful about taking characters' words at face value in this game. We as the writers will never lie to you out of character, be it in the narration or in the codex. Characters, however, are free to tell you anything from white lies to half-truths to malicious falsehoods. Everyone has their own motivation and agenda, and as the Champion of Hawkethorne people are trying to convince you to be on their side for good or for ill. I can count off the top of my head three characters currently in-game who outright blatantly lie to you, and about five who liberally stretch the truth for their own ends.
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Addendum:
We are pretty pleased that Kas produces such reactions in people -- even negative ones. It's more than Lethice ever produced, and proof in the pudding that having the final boss wait in the final room of the game is a rather boring thing to happen. It is true that soulless creatures like demons are incapable of empathy for others -- this is lore set down by Fenoxo himself. Which raises the question of Kas' behaviour and what would happen, theoretically, if a demon could be convinced to care for creatures other than themselves.
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All of this is very much fair. My intention was not to call you a liar, but to present what evidence there is (so far) in game to create an argument. I apologize if that is how you felt upon reading it. I expect from the start that everything I am saying is wrong, and that when I go to reread all this I will laugh at my own ignorance. There's certainly the possibility that Kassyra is an evil demon hell bent on destroying the world, and that the gods are completely benevolent; at this point in the story I am skeptical toward that line of thinking.
All that being said, I take no shame in admitting I have no idea where this story is headed. I'm just some rando with an opinion debating other randos with differing opinions. I have great respect for your writing as well as the rest of the teams'. I love reading; the writing in this game gets the creative juices flowing. If anything I say sounds condescending, please understand that I am excited to see where we are headed and will share my opinions/theories/etc. to anyone that will listen.
Yeah I kinda am a fanboy of her lol. Maybe I'm just a bit too naive, but I do feel she can be redeemed. Kinda like Vader I dunno, if he could change due to his son, I think given time and enough Goodwill, kassyra could change. But I do see the other side, she has caused a lot of strife, likely knowing that said actions she takes would cause it. Though I did think of something, maybe she does it to keep herself from being too overtaken by her lust? Food for thought.
Agree there completely, I see his side a bit, but a redemption route does seem possible, heck, letichiue herself got one, and she was the hur dur evil sex demon queen I'm gonna rape everyone and corrupt a god
I wish i could make as massive responses as you guys do lol, but honestly you put it better than i ever could, and that is why I made this thread after all, saying how my peep probably loves her in some day, sure maybe just her dick, but I think it could go further.
Ya know....something stopped me from writing further on the prior response. I never thought of this, but you can't marry any of the game characters can you? Not in the original, tits or coc2, I don't think. I was thinking the player could give Kassyra the purity ring to maybe help her sexual urges, and as a token of marriage, but you couldn't marry anyone I don't think, not even the lovely marble. Is this on purpose something never intended for a sex game like this? Or, is it just not a thing the writers cared for?
I believe we can be officially married to Kiyoko if The Observer's thread is any indication. Technically we're already unofficially married to her if we go the route of picking up the amulet and having kids with her.
Also, Purity Ring literally only prevents sexual dreams. It does jack squat for regular slutty thoughts, so I doubt it'd do anything for Kassyra.
If we're going to be using any magical items on Kasyrra in any route, I would imagine it'd have to be some powerful McGuffin as opposed to some random item an NPC in a random encounter gives you.
Yeah. Good point. Maybe during some quest in the future we can find some item. After all she gave us the fast travel gem thingy so I don't know. Heck, maybe magic types could make something similar to the ring to help her. So many possibilities!
You can actually marry Queen Taivra in TiTS. Maybe others? But Tai for sure.
There's planned to be several marriage options in CoC2, where appropriate. Mostly nobility: princesses, baronesses, etc.
TheShepard256
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing (also hoping) that includes Etheryn? She is both a companion and a princess (possibly soon-to-be queen), after all.