Your gripes with CoC II

[Tide Hunter]

Do people really think Bubble et al are writing Quin - your faithful ally who can travel with you to the ends of the earth, potential father of champ's children - to be a serial rapist who spends his days scheming to violate your other companions? Nobody has to like the bunny boy, but Quin the Rapist has always been a gigantic reach.

To be fair, another one of our companions, Arona, who can be willing to faithfully obey you (or dominate you) and with whom you can both sire and birth children, is also an unrepentant serial rapist, raider, and slaver, as part of her tribe's culture, a culture she is pretty much unwilling to change. Her preferred methods happen to be more physical, and also she's far worse morally than Quin. And yet people seem to generally be much more lenient with her. While some folks would rate her as one of their least favorite companions, there's a decently large chunk of people who would rate her as their favorite, or one of their favorites.

 

[zagzig]

To be fair, another one of our companions, Arona, who can be willing to faithfully obey you (or dominate you) and with whom you can both sire and birth children, is also an unrepentant serial rapist, raider, and slaver, as part of her tribe's culture, a culture she is pretty much unwilling to change. Her preferred methods happen to be more physical, and also she's far worse morally than Quin. And yet people seem to generally be much more lenient with her. While some folks would rate her as one of their least favorite companions, there's a decently large chunk of people who would rate her as their favorite, or one of their favorites.

That's true, though the distinction I would make there is that Savin readily says Arona is the token evil teammate (at least until demon Viv came along). Bubblelord has been very against that characterisation of Quin.

And, despite all those things you said about Arona being true, she isn't described as doing any of that as your companions. She's definitely south of Neutral on the alignment scale, but Arona is never going to be written doing heinous things to Hawkethorne NPCs while you're not looking (at least not without their consent) because that would make her impossible to have as a companion without being a piece of shit. At the very least, the same principle applies to Quin.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

To be fair, another one of our companions, Arona, who can be willing to faithfully obey you (or dominate you) and with whom you can both sire and birth children, is also an unrepentant serial rapist, raider, and slaver, as part of her tribe's culture, a culture she is pretty much unwilling to change. Her preferred methods happen to be more physical, and also she's far worse morally than Quin. And yet people seem to generally be much more lenient with her. While some folks would rate her as one of their least favorite companions, there's a decently large chunk of people who would rate her as their favorite, or one of their favorites.

Speaking as someone who enjoys Arona, there are a couple of things that set her and Quinn apart for me.

1. Arona is a big-tittied, hot-blooded amazon herm with two settings, Sub or Domme, each with their own selection of sex scenes. She also can carry or sire kids, which gives her flexibility, and some nice pregnancy care content. That appeals to me. Quinn is a dude, with only one set of genitals, and a limited set of sex scenes which are almost all pitching, and only one future scene where he catches. That is definitely not my thing.

2. Arona is a tank with an extra set which is ideal for fighting Demons and Ghosts, meaning she synergises well with any player class and party depending on sets. Quinn has been made better since the combat rework but his emphasis on sex magic made him very limited before then.

3. Arona is also from an entire culture of raiders, slavers and sex maniacs. I mean, that doesn't make it okay, but it does offer an explanation, and can be traced back to systemic problems with Sailgrave Orc society that are probably beyond the scope of this game to solve. (Plus if you want to be consistent you end up having to hate almost all Orcs in the game as a result.) Quinn does not fit in that category since his status as an ex-Cultist is all about having made bad choices and being bamboozled by Tollus before he left, which is not really the same thing since it means the bulk of the buck for his actions in the present still stops with him, since I don't think Taeleer are culturally prone to falling in with a bad crowd.

 

[loricd]

Personally I wish I could overhear some sort of conversation with one of the other companions and Quinn saying something to the effect of, "Sorry, can't help myself. Sometimes I just gotta use my magic to get what I want. And want is to bed our Champion." And hopefully he tries to go through with it with me.

 

[Melon_ear]

I personally dislike Quin because the author decided to slap me with 8 corruption when I decided that I have no good reason to trust him and was given no middle ground between "I trust you completely" and "Go die in a ditch". Time for barely related tangent gripe number 1:

The linear development of the game. Plans are bound to change as the game develops but in some cases it creates discrepancies when later added content enables a new route for an earlier content which is never covered because going back and tweaking existing stuff to accommodate for new developments is not worth the resources. Right now we have a dungeon in the Wayfort into which we can throw any ne'er-do-wells who we either want to lock up or are not sure on how to proceed with. But we are not getting that with Quin because the Wayfort was changed to be a possible base of operation only after he was added and would require serious rewriting of his existing content to fit which would be a waste of resources when most players want the new shiny thing.

Then we get an automatic quest to recruit him and it's time for barely related tangent number 2:

Don't do automatic quests. If I wanted to do something I would ask to do it and having uncompleted quests in the log feels awful and just begs for an ending slide calling you and asshole for never getting around to it.

And I don't understand people calling his mind magic a harmless prank when it's a lot closer to groping than putting someone's stapler in jello.
And while the Tui talk was confirmed to be wrong by Bubble and going to be changed, I have to admit I got a good laugh when, for all his memeing on players not reading and misinterpreting Quin's content, he himself admitted to never having read the two paragraphs of Tui's companion talk.

 

[AceofSpades]

Ey, brother, glad to see another guy here that prefers to top. Sometimes it feels like I am surronded by bottoms when interacting with this community.

I thought we were cool!


For real though, sad I missed this debate. I am pretty good at writing, I think, but my coding skills are nonexistent so... womp womp. I would contribute to the man-puddle of content if I could. I will say, avoiding bob and vagene and futa dick really honed in my build to not fail in combat. Because sometimes, especially against bosses, I feel like I am avoiding a loooot of boobs. I even died for fun in the fox den, and not even those guys do more than kill you lol.

I can't say that I've noticed a lack of bottoming, because... yeah. But I'm sure I've screeched like a harpy enough that I am in full support of more fleshed out male characters, even on the level of... what's her name... the tailor in the fox den.

 

[Ria Brew]

I'm honestly just confused. Maybe I'm missing something but the whole mind magic thing to fuck with people seems awfully par for the course when compared to the grand, multi-hued spectrum that is this games morality. Like yeah it's kinda fucked up but it's hardly the worst thing anyone that you get to call a companion has done/can do. If you lose to arona she straight up just actually rapes you. Viviane invades(allegedly) your dreams(allegedly) to steal your cum. Companions frequently "help themselves" to "leftover spoils" in post fight sex scenes. The whole thing with Cait and Lusamine.

I guess it's different when it's between companions but idk it seems like such an odd place to find the line, especially when taking a couple steps back.

 

[AceofSpades]

I've always thought Quinn was the setup for the "redemption" character in every video game. The tension of "does he or does he not trust us" is part of the shtick. And generally with that character type, there is some sort of perceived betrayal of trust that winds up being not really a betrayal. I haven't seen his talk with Annika yet but it seems like a good setup for "Well if he's not telling me this, does he distrust me?" Only to reveal that it was no big deal.

As far as the lust magic, in context of the world, I also don't think it's so bad. It would be like having a siren song or Berry flashing his dick at Cait to get her to suck it. They're giving someone the extra persuasion, but not forcing anything. I went into a big deep dive on Quin not that long ago and he mentions that one of our companions, I think Arona, actually pursues him for his magic for the extra sensation of it mixed with sex. Honestly I'm surprised we don't have more magical/mental seduction in the game. CoC1 and TiTS both have a lot, especially pheromones. I think lacking NPCs, both benign and otherwise, who employ it make Quin stand out. But then maybe I'm just used to it from playing the aforementioned games where it's a very common theme.

 

[Animalistic]

The problem with Quinn is not that his actions are morally fucked up, it is that the game does not notice the dichotomy between the way his acts and the way the text is trying to present him.

Hell, the recent event where townsfolk dog-pile on him for being a former member, and how game presents it as it "not being fair torwards poor Quinn," leaves scratching my head. For that one scene perfectly encapsulates my problem with his apperent character arc: those flaws that he has are not presented as something that he has to fix in game. He wants to distance himself from the cult, but a lot of his less savory tendencies are the ones that their average member seems to poses. He dresses like a cultist, he uses his magic without consent and he seems proud of how easily he can influence people to get in their pants with. And while, thankfully, he keeps it consensual as much as one can when using aphrodisiac magic (well as long as you are not with him in bed), I really feel that that is the lowest of low bars one can find.

The game puts all the blame on his circumstances, and not on how he is failing to combat them.

Let me use subArona as example. She believes that strong should enact their will on the weaker, her observations and manner of speaking/thinking were/are less than ideal -- she was a rapist Orc.

And game calls her up that.
Her Brienne dialogue brings up how messed up her perception of the cowgirl is, and it treats it as such.
She gets chewed up on multiple occasions for things her people have done (enslaving cowgirls) and her unwillingness to show some simpathy.
And multiple characters across the game give her a piece of their mind on how overtly barbaric she can seem.

Yet, at least in some aspects, her stay -- and possible love -- with the champion and people around them is making her reconsider her approach. She takes care of vulnerable Ryn, she tries to somewhat blend into the crowd at bare minimum. And her recent lover events put emphasis on how her being champions sub made it known to her that it is okay to feel vulnerable.
And she doesn't rape, which is apparently an accomplishment.

I'm honestly just confused. Maybe I'm missing something but the whole mind magic thing to fuck with people seems awfully par for the course when compared to the grand, multi-hued spectrum that is this games morality. Like yeah it's kinda fucked up but it's hardly the worst thing anyone that you get to call a companion has done/can do. If you lose to arona she straight up just actually rapes you. Viviane invades(allegedly) your dreams(allegedly) to steal your cum. Companions frequently "help themselves" to "leftover spoils" in post fight sex scenes. The whole thing with Cait and Lusamine

Sorry to distinguish you among the rest, my comment is getting long as it is, but I personally have a problem with most of these. Well, expect with Arona since, if you believe that she is iredimable trash, you can leave her to die. And the post battle sex scenes involving your companions are most of the time inacted when the former combatant is more than willing to fuck you -- the white hair bunny girl, tattooed demon, that Ninja Kitsune and so on.

Now onto the rest -- I dislike how out of character Cait acts torwards lusamine. How she seemingly forces herself upon the elf, which, for a cat girl that is all about consent, seems wrong.
Viviane does invade your dreams to dream fuck you without your say in the matter. And the game is apparently OK with that.
Or how we have no option to refuse Berwyn when it comes living with us. Despite him trying to rape us.

Quinn just happens to have most of his cons strewed across his entire body of work, which is why they are more noticeable.

 

[arch99]

I personally dislike Quin because the author decided to slap me with 8 corruption when I decided that I have no good reason to trust him and was given no middle ground between "I trust you completely" and "Go die in a ditch". Time for barely related tangent gripe number 1:

The linear development of the game. Plans are bound to change as the game develops but in some cases it creates discrepancies when later added content enables a new route for an earlier content which is never covered because going back and tweaking existing stuff to accommodate for new developments is not worth the resources. Right now we have a dungeon in the Wayfort into which we can throw any ne'er-do-wells who we either want to lock up or are not sure on how to proceed with. But we are not getting that with Quin because the Wayfort was changed to be a possible base of operation only after he was added and would require serious rewriting of his existing content to fit which would be a waste of resources when most players want the new shiny thing.

Then we get an automatic quest to recruit him and it's time for barely related tangent number 2:

Don't do automatic quests. If I wanted to do something I would ask to do it and having uncompleted quests in the log feels awful and just begs for an ending slide calling you and asshole for never getting around to it.

And I don't understand people calling his mind magic a harmless prank when it's a lot closer to groping than putting someone's stapler in jello.
And while the Tui talk was confirmed to be wrong by Bubble and going to be changed, I have to admit I got a good laugh when, for all his memeing on players not reading and misinterpreting Quin's content, he himself admitted to never having read the two paragraphs of Tui's companion talk.

Yeah, it's kinda fucked people are now going "you're misrepresenting him" when I'm directly quoting content from in the game that has been in the game for years that was the representation of him, which is apparently now incorrect? No shit I would draw incorrect conclusions from incorrect content that's never corrected that there's no disclaimer or anything on. What the fuck else would I be able to know? If I'm fundamentally not given information, I can't magically correct the misinformation I'm given.

Edit: And for the record, I find Arona largely uninteresting myself. I'm well aware that within the game, rape is contextualized as an accepted part of combat. But rape using mental magic to influence people is repeatedly and frequently presented as evil and the hallmark of the cult - I don't think you can blame the players of your game where the baddies constantly try to use corruption and evil magic to turn people horny for disliking the companion who constantly uses magic to try and turn your friends horny, a pretty similar goal to what the main villains of the game try to do. I dislike that Cait forces herself on Lusamine, it seems deeply out of character for her. Dreams are a slightly different matter, imo, but yes, are also inherently nonsexual. But the difference here in most of these cases is that it's not your supposed allies targeting your supposed allies. Lusamine attacks us to rob and potentially rape us alongside the rest of MMM. Viviane fundamentally does not know us at the time. Quinn is doing friendly fire. That's why I don't like him.

I mean, also just, dudes who sexualize every woman around them and try to manipulate them into having sex are an actual threat much greater than people trying to fight you and then raping you if you lose, and they're constantly excused societally, and it pisses me off to see them being excused all over again. But it would be very different if it wasn't on our allies and friends.

 

[Ria Brew]

Edit: And for the record, I find Arona largely uninteresting myself. I'm well aware that within the game, rape is contextualized as an accepted part of combat. But rape using mental magic to influence people is repeatedly and frequently presented as evil and the hallmark of the cult - I don't think you can blame the players of your game where the baddies constantly try to use corruption and evil magic to turn people horny for disliking the companion who constantly uses magic to try and turn your friends horny, a pretty similar goal to what the main villains of the game try to do. I dislike that Cait forces herself on Lusamine, it seems deeply out of character for her. Dreams are a slightly different matter, imo, but yes, are also inherently nonsexual. But the difference here in most of these cases is that it's not your supposed allies targeting your supposed allies. Lusamine attacks us to rob and potentially rape us alongside the rest of MMM. Viviane fundamentally does not know us at the time. Quinn is doing friendly fire. That's why I don't like him.

I mean, also just, dudes who sexualize every woman around them and try to manipulate them into having sex are an actual threat much greater than people trying to fight you and then raping you if you lose, and they're constantly excused societally, and it pisses me off to see them being excused all over again. But it would be very different if it wasn't on our allies and friends.

I do wish to just point out I don't think anyone is wrong for drawing the aforementioned line, just that it's not where I expected to find it. I'm not necessarily wired to interpret things in the "friendly fire" light. An ally doing bad things to an ally is gonna put me off about as much as an ally doing the same to an enemy or an enemy to an ally. I blame the autism.

In the end what I mean to say is this isn't the "normalized" problematic trait of this world i expected so many people to single out.

And I'm certainly not trying to excuse any of these behaviors. They are all very much in the realm of not okay, with maybe one or two that fall into the "it's kinda hot when they do it to me" abstract fantasy fetish, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Kesil]

Personally, I'd like it if Quin used his magic as a way to enhance the act. But, as it stands, it feels more like a cheap domination tool. At this point, it may be it's just a confluence of kinks that some find in bad taste.
I too think it may be best to beat an enemy by shaking your body rather than firing a string of fireballs, but I can see how the slippery slope may go across the "you [seem to] enjoy it, you want it" path.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

And while the Tui talk was confirmed to be wrong by Bubble and going to be changed, I have to admit I got a good laugh when, for all his memeing on players not reading and misinterpreting Quin's content, he himself admitted to never having read the two paragraphs of Tui's companion talk.

...is this true? Because that's a fairly big yikes if so.

I dislike that Cait forces herself on Lusamine, it seems deeply out of character for her.

Hard agree with that, plus I'm not quite sure why my 100% pure character would actually move to assist one of the scenes by body blocking the whole thing from view.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

I mean, also just, dudes who sexualize every woman around them and try to manipulate them into having sex are an actual threat much greater than people trying to fight you and then raping you if you lose, and they're constantly excused societally, and it pisses me off to see them being excused all over again. But it would be very different if it wasn't on our allies and friends.

Nobody here has excused any of the behavior, we're just not having a knee-jerk reaction to it because we understand its a game set in a fantasy world. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe literally every person here participating in this discussion has acknowledged that what Quin doesn't isn't morally okay in their eyes. The reason why we can act like its no big deal and brush it off is because we're aware that its just some fictional writing in a fantasy game with no actual effect on the real world.

Also to play the devils advocate for a bit; There is a such thing as a CNC kink and on some level Quin's behavior could probably be enjoyable to people who have those specific fantasies. At the end of the day isn't CoC a game that exists to do just that? Satisfy erotic fantasies that we'd otherwise have difficulties experiencing? Its okay to not enjoy certain content from the game but not liking something doesn't mean it needs to be removed or changed. Just don't play that content and ignore it.

 

[arch99]

Nobody here has excused any of the behavior, we're just not having a knee-jerk reaction to it because we understand its a game set in a fantasy world. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe literally every person here participating in this discussion has acknowledged that what Quin doesn't isn't morally okay in their eyes. The reason why we can act like its no big deal and brush it off is because we're aware that its just some fictional writing in a fantasy game with no actual effect on the real world.

Also to play the devils advocate for a bit; There is a such thing as a CNC kink and on some level Quin's behavior could probably be enjoyable to people who have those specific fantasies. At the end of the day isn't CoC a game that exists to do just that? Satisfy erotic fantasies that we'd otherwise have difficulties experiencing? Its okay to not enjoy certain content from the game but not liking something doesn't mean it needs to be removed or changed. Just don't play that content and ignore it.

Then give us a way to opt-out of Quin without being evil for it, if he's doing something morally wrong and he's engaging with a kink that is pretty non-universal. Like we have a way to opt-out of the drunk kitsune I can't remember the name of. I have always said that if I'm given a way to send quin off on a mission or whatever and just get rid of him after saving him (because the way the game contextualizes it, I am evil for not doing so) I will happily do so, and shut the fuck up about him from then on.

 

[rwftg]

Her Brienne dialogue brings up how messed up her perception of the cowgirl is, and it treats it as such.

How can I see this dialogue of Arona talking about Brienne?

 

[Animalistic]

How can I see this dialogue of Arona talking about Brienne?

I remember there being a talk with Arona where she first says how she would love to colar Brienne as a bed warmer or something, and then about how she thinks Brienne is a racist torwards orcs or something after she refuses her orcish advances. I remember reading it somewhere.

 

[Tide Hunter]

And while the Tui talk was confirmed to be wrong by Bubble and going to be changed, I have to admit I got a good laugh when, for all his memeing on players not reading and misinterpreting Quin's content, he himself admitted to never having read the two paragraphs of Tui's companion talk.

Was she? While that would make since, do you have a link or a screenshot to Bubble saying that Tui's lines weren't accurate?

For real though, sad I missed this debate. I am pretty good at writing, I think, but my coding skills are nonexistent so... womp womp. I would contribute to the man-puddle of content if I could

The writing doesn't really need much coding. Yeah, there's coding, but that's done by coders after the writer is done, and when doing the writing itself, the closest you get is using parsers and setting up scene variations.

 

[embersDiscarded]

On the note of "not forcing quests on the players", can we get an option to ignore the wayfort maids quest? Or at least turn off the maid events once it's complete?

Also, an option to turn of the wayfort events in general would be nice, they're kind of annoying.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

Also, an option to turn of the wayfort events in general would be nice, they're kind of annoying.

I sorta agree with this. While I think including an option to enable or disable them entirely may be a bit too much maybe some sort of cooling period for certain events would be good? It feels like I see the Farrah haggling event at least once a day while wandering through the wayfort. I don't want to disable the scene entirely but I do feel like I see it too frequently. I don't know how complicated it'd be to code into the game but some sort of function that would check how long it'd been since the last time that scene had played and prevent it from repeating if the player had seen it recently would be nice.

 

[arch99]

Farrah haggling and puppy catches a thief happen too often yeah. High proc chance for first one then like, 1/20 of the current proc chance and it'd be okay. How many merchants are going through the wayfort and how many thieves are there for that to happen so often lmao.

 

[AceofSpades]

The writing doesn't really need much coding. Yeah, there's coding, but that's done by coders after the writer is done, and when doing the writing itself, the closest you get is using parsers and setting up scene variations.

Hmmmmm! I didn't realize this, I thought pretty much everyone had to mock-up coding and it just got reviewed and implemented by someone else. Perhaps in my free time I'll write up a big orc bottom with a big green butt. Who potentially is also into femchamp's boobies too.

 

[kiby]

Then give us a way to opt-out of Quin without being evil for it, if he's doing something morally wrong and he's engaging with a kink that is pretty non-universal. Like we have a way to opt-out of the drunk kitsune I can't remember the name of. I have always said that if I'm given a way to send quin off on a mission or whatever and just get rid of him after saving him (because the way the game contextualizes it, I am evil for not doing so) I will happily do so, and shut the fuck up about him from then on.

At least it's incredibly easy to get rid of corruption by spending time in the cloister.

 

[arch99]

At least it's incredibly easy to get rid of corruption by spending time in the cloister.

True, but I always prefer to have never gained it. And telling Quin to kick dirt feels like not what my character would do, in a roleplaying game, so it annoys me to potentially have to do that. Also, afaik it's impossible to get all the rewards from the boat mission of winter wolf without quinn, which, while not a big deal, is annoying. It's just a big pileup of a bunch of annoying shit with having to deal with this dude that I truly do not want to have to deal with in a game which is, at its core, supposed to be a fun power fantasy of playing a sexy phoenix knight (for me, of course, I imagine the specific power fantasy differs for others lmao) and getting topped by a bunch of hot ladies.

 

[Emily Smith]

True, but I always prefer to have never gained it. And telling Quin to kick dirt feels like not what my character would do, in a roleplaying game, so it annoys me to potentially have to do that. Also, afaik it's impossible to get all the rewards from the boat mission of winter wolf without quinn, which, while not a big deal, is annoying. It's just a big pileup of a bunch of annoying shit with having to deal with this dude that I truly do not want to have to deal with in a game which is, at its core, supposed to be a fun power fantasy of playing a sexy phoenix knight (for me, of course, I imagine the specific power fantasy differs for others lmao) and getting topped by a bunch of hot ladies.

What does Quin give to winter wolf?

 

[A1teros]

Also, afaik it's impossible to get all the rewards from the boat mission of winter wolf without quinn, which, while not a big deal, is annoying.

I did it with a Thief PC and Arona, maxed out Strength, Agility, and Willpower and then drank a Honey Mead. I also had Cait with me but idk if she helped or not. you can get everything in the hold with time to spare.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

What does Quin give to winter wolf?

There are several parts of the quest where Quinn is needed to get the optimal outcome unless your character is a thief with high Cunning and/or Dexterity.

 

[Cannibal Cravings]

a fun power fantasy of playing a sexy phoenix knight and getting topped by a bunch of hot ladies.

Are there actually phoenix transformative items in the game? I don't think I've personally encountered any yet, or if I did I wasn't paying attention and sold it...

 

[Animalistic]

I thought we were cool!

Oh, we are cool. As it is known, for there to be tops, there have to be equal amount of bottoms. It is just that since most vocal people of this community are bottoms when comes to guys, you kind of start to wonder "do no tops/doms play this game."

Now of course that is all how it seems. As shown by that steem guy, and by the poll that I made, there are many people willing to top/power bottom guys, it is just that they do not really express themselves since the game itself does not have much oppurtunites to do that. As we have argued past week.

Still, it was nice just hearing someone other than me express my frustrations. And a nice moral boost to finish all the stuff I have cooking up for the game.

 

[Emily Smith]

There are several parts of the quest where Quinn is needed to get the optimal outcome unless your character is a thief with high Cunning and/or Dexterity.

I know Ryn is good to have to take out the guards on ship quietly. Arona for the drinks cabinet and the rest I get with my champs. I take it you dont mean the ship part?