Your gripes with CoC II

[Necros]

To add my bit of irrelevant opinion to the conversation:

If the devs add an option to mess with the Seven in some capacity, I will be pleasantly surprised, but I won't riot if they don't.

Spoiler: Relevant

Since everyone is using spoilers, i didn't want to be left out.

 

[Resawar]

Spoiler: The Divine State

The fact that Wolfram still is willing to argue with people I find amazing, no matter how many good things the gods do nor how much they repent people who want to see the gods burn for what they did will always want them punished there is no way to argue someone out of that position due to the fact that it's indicative with how people see justice in real life in a western context, no repent nor action can fix what crime they did just punishment and for the gods that's the ability to kill, destabilize, corrupt, dethrone or do something else to negatively effect them nothing else with satisfy the punishment they seek.

It's also amazing how much malevolence we ascribe to the wraith which the game reads to me as describing them as clever predators but no more then animals then when they obtain a moral compass, morality, or what ever gave them some sense of intelligence other then hunger we still cast judgement on them as if they always had it to begin with. It's like taking a cat that rips and shreds mice daily giving it a conscience and then casting our morality upon it for the action it did while being something lesser no more then an animal.

The fact that we have to address the reason for the plot and give context to the point of the game existing speak for itself with how far some arguments people are willing to take to just stoke their hatred for the gods, how else would the game exist without the gods giving us the ability to fight Kas. What game is 100% better if the game just hand waves away all the problems with the setting by just saying the gods fixed it that would ruin 90% of games, everybody should know that just because the gods are there in a setting does not mean we can lob criticism at the game devs due to not have them fix it all and don't we all rail on games and other media for having deus ex machina's like Gods fixing all the problems.

 

[SomeNobody]

Or maybe the real problems come about with the form the gods of coc2 take that it renders them a destabilising plot cancer that get to soak up far too much spotlight personally interacting with the player character and doing things for the seven to ignore ongoing events.

Its really less a question of morality and more the fact the way they are written into the story is flawed, which in particular is brought into sharp focus when compared to how similar cosmological matters were handled in the game this is a sequel to.

 

[Melancholy Man]

The Doylist reason they don't do this is that then there wouldn't be a game if the gods could solve all your problems for you with a wave of their divine hands. Garde has been quite clear on this, though there are plans to get into the specifics of why this doesn't happen if you insist on a Watsonian explanation.

The most Bs reasoning I've seen in while
Its makes the writers look disorganized and the Gods look even more like sh*t

 

[MarcoPolo121]

Ho boy, gonna be one of those circular arguments again.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Spoiler: The Divine State

The fact that Wolfram still is willing to argue with people I find amazing, no matter how many good things the gods do nor how much they repent people who want to see the gods burn for what they did will always want them punished there is no way to argue someone out of that position due to the fact that it's indicative with how people see justice in real life in a western context, no repent nor action can fix what crime they did just punishment and for the gods that's the ability to kill, destabilize, corrupt, dethrone or do something else to negatively effect them nothing else with satisfy the punishment they seek.

It's also amazing how much malevolence we ascribe to the wraith which the game reads to me as describing them as clever predators but no more then animals then when they obtain a moral compass, morality, or what ever gave them some sense of intelligence other then hunger we still cast judgement on them as if they always had it to begin with. It's like taking a cat that rips and shreds mice daily giving it a conscience and then casting our morality upon it for the action it did while being something lesser no more then an animal.

The fact that we have to address the reason for the plot and give context to the point of the game existing speak for itself with how far some arguments people are willing to take to just stoke their hatred for the gods, how else would the game exist without the gods giving us the ability to fight Kas. What game is 100% better if the game just hand waves away all the problems with the setting by just saying the gods fixed it that would ruin 90% of games, everybody should know that just because the gods are there in a setting does not mean we can lob criticism at the game devs due to not have them fix it all and don't we all rail on games and other media for having deus ex machina's like Gods fixing all the problems.

Spoiler

Its not about blind hate, for me at least is the fact the PC is just made to forget and even worst just accept this with no thought behind it; If you had a neighbor that was polite, well-mannered, even does charity work and soup kitchen duties at a community centers but its revealed that they were a mass murder 2 years ago, how would you feel about them? I'm sure there would be fairly complex emotions and situations come to mind but you wouldn't immediately be fine with them that's a fact. The authors are showing their influence too much.
What's weird to me is that according to you Wolfram has had this convo a lot and no-one thought that maybe these ppl might have a point?

 

[Resawar]

Or maybe the real problems come about with the form the gods of coc2 take that it renders them a destabilising plot cancer that get to soak up far too much spotlight personally interacting with the player character and doing things for the seven to ignore ongoing events.

Its really less a question of morality and more the fact the way they are written into the story is flawed, which in particular is brought into sharp focus when compared to how similar cosmological matters were handled in the game this is a sequel to.

You fall into the first and third paragraph's demographic, your vague criticism show you have no solid points and are unable to charitably and with good faith discuss any of the matters at hand.

Spoiler Text

Spoiler: Hide to hide just in case

You can't even engage with the example I made and brought it back to beings that baseline start with morality and empathy bar psychopaths and thus try obfuscate with 'maybe if enough people say it maybe you should reevaluate your position because you might be wrong'. Also you say you harbor no hate but you are very clearly passionate about the matter.

Thus I am done talking out the matter with both of you.

 

[SomeNobody]

unable to charitably and with good faith discuss any of the matters at hand.

Hypocrisy Resawar, when with your invented "demographics" you assign arguments solely of your own devising into the mouths of others for not agreeing with you.

 

[Sacremas]

Just a friendly reminder that if people are arguing passionately about something, it's because they love what they are talking about, and are just upset about what they see as problems with it, rather than hating on it as a whole. If people hated the game in any way, they wouldn't have the passion to post about it here and argue things back and forth, it would just become apathy instead. Passionate arguments come out of love for a subject, not hate. Likewise if someone actively defend those things as not being problems, they're probably also doing it out of love for the subject at hand, leaving everyone with a lot more similarities than differences. Let's keep that in mind and try to be a little more polite than some people are being please?

 

[Melancholy Man]

You fall into the first and third paragraph's demographic, your vague criticism show you have no solid points and are unable to charitably and with good faith discuss any of the matters at hand.

Spoiler: Hide to hide just in case

You can't even engage with the example I made and brought it back to beings that baseline start with morality and empathy bar psychopaths and thus try obfuscate with 'maybe if enough people say it maybe you should reevaluate your position because you might be wrong'. Also you say you harbor no hate but you are very clearly passionate about the matter.

Thus I am done talking out the matter with both of you.

Thats fine you do you but note that you didn't answer my question because you know the outcome. You giving me plot justifications don't excuse the actions nor does it excuse forcing the pc to just comply. If you want a more complex example instead of a simple one; How do you feel about a government that provides for its ppl and brings them great prosperity by destabilizing others and causing choas for foreigners in the name of homeland interests?

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

Ho boy, gonna be one of those circular arguments again.

There is no other kind.

To be honest with topics like these I kind of enjoy the discussion itself, got the 2 front nostalgia flowing through me since I'm both a vet of writing and worldbuilding communities where would get into it about this sort of thing fairly often, and the debates we would have in my ethics courses.

Anyhow!

Spoiler: The future belongs to the spoilers

The Doylist reason they don't do this is that then there wouldn't be a game if the gods could solve all your problems for you with a wave of their divine hands. Garde has been quite clear on this, though there are plans to get into the specifics of why this doesn't happen if you insist on a Watsonian explanation.

I have referenced that it exists the way it does clearly for gameplay purposes multiple times myself Wolf. But we're talking lore and writing right now, several of the writers have talked about how they want to emphasize such over the original game, so 'it's a gameplay mechanic' is not quite a valid argument in this situation. This be lore speak.

Like I feel like we do this all the time, you think you've got me with some clever point that I sure must have missed, then I explain that I did know that and think it's either irrelevant or illogical and usually explain why and then we both piss off and do it again a week or 2 later. And you're usually kind of rude to me during the whole thing, for no real reason. I criticize the devs, not you, and when I am making suggestions about your own behavior I typically try to be polite and considerate about it unless you were getting after me prior.

You aren't the devs, and unless you go out of your way to start shit with me I typically try to be polite and courteous when we interact, so I kindly ask you to knock it the fuck off and cool yourself when you want to go mad dogging just because someone questioned the team you wish to believe yourself on a friendly basis with. They're writers, no one questioning what they're doing, especially when they have the experience to give genuine feedback and criticism, is detrimental to their chances to learn and evolve. Plus a few of them can be proper asses if we're all being honest, and at that point dragging some less then stellar writing into the light is more then fair game.

Haven't even read the second bit because I've gone off rambling about this, but I'll check it out in a bit and respond to it if it seems to be put well enough together.

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

Just a friendly reminder that if people are arguing passionately about something, it's because they love what they are talking about, and are just upset about what they see as problems with it, rather than hating on it as a whole. If people hated the game in any way, they wouldn't have the passion to post about it here and argue things back and forth, it would just become apathy instead. Passionate arguments come out of love for a subject, not hate. Likewise if someone actively defend those things as not being problems, they're probably also doing it out of love for the subject at hand, leaving everyone with a lot more similarities than differences. Let's keep that in mind and try to be a little more polite than some people are being please?

Sorry for the double post, but this is a very insightful response Sacremas, and one a lot of people do not pick up on. It's quite admirable of you to try and bring a bit of peace and understanding to the topic, and I thank you for it.

I think we all would do well to heed these words and cool down a bit.

 

[Off The Record]

If Brint was anything like Brienne, he would instantly become one of my favorites characters in the game: an 8 and half foot tall minotaur with big dick that is obsessed with you, is submissive and is monogamous to boot? Sign me up.

Not a gripe for me per se, but I'm not a fan of all the big dick romanceable options being all "I'm such a stud and I get laid, like, every morning, afternoon, and night."These characters behave like douchebag manwhores, and it's a shame to me because they're hot, but I feel cheap fucking them. Like I'm a masturbatory sleeve. Arona is a prime example of this. Brint isn't a douchebag, but he does have that manwhore energy. Lowkey, I feel like Brint would be more liked if he leaned into a himbo archetype: kind, dumb, and hot.

Anyway, I'm sure others like the douchebag manwhore energy but this has been something I've been thinking about.

 

[Animalistic]

Yeah, Brint is sweet but him being a manwhore, and unappealing one at that, knocks him few pegs down the totem poll in terms of desirable partners. I wish there was a route where we could domesticate him, make him more royal and more subby. Maybe remove the snout. Something tells me that would bode well in terms of his popularity.

 

[Kingu2]

I really want to address this handwaving nonsense that people seem to think is a good reason to have plotholes in the story. Handwaving is fine for game mechanics like leveling up, how beating people up with your sword has made you better at leadership... somehow. It's fine to add fun and convience to the gameplay but it's when it comes to storytelling handwaving is actually reaaally bad because it indicates that the author fucked up and either doesn't know how to fix it or doesn't care too. It's common problem with authors writing themselves into corners, many would use some kind of contrivance like an ex machina to get themselves out. That's still not good but at least they tried. Handwaving though is actually the worst outcome because it means they didn't or couldn't write their way out of it and just left a big gross plothole there for all to see.

Let me set up a scenario. You're reading a story and in the first chapter the villian is in a position to kill the hero, has every reason to do so to the point that it would be monumetally stupid for them not to and there is nothing the hero can do to stop them but suddenly the villian stops and goes.

"oh, well uh, this is awkward, I can't actually kill you now or else the story would be over and I mean that would suck for the reader right? So... I guess I'll just fuck off for now ."

And you need to just accept that because, y'know, the story needs to happen. This is the logic you use to defend why Lumia doesn't just obliterate Kas with solar beam after tossing the tentacle monster. That the reader shouldn't complain or critisize the blatant misshandeling of story elements that got the authors into this corner and their inability to get out of it, because the story wouldn't be able happen if they didn't just ignore and move past it. This is not what handwaving is for.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

Okay, I'm about to go play the new patch that just dropped and frankly, I've been waiting for this moment for a while, so the rant I was working up while lying awake in bed at 6 in the morning will have to be this brief snippet instead:

I just don't care about plot holes or realistic logic problems in games, especially not porn games, as much as some of you guys do. If this was a movie or a book then sure, maybe I'd have harsher words, but this is a video game, a video game primarily about fucking everything with an open hole you meet, and I do not care about the narrative of games half as much as the playable/recruitable characters and the core gameplay loop of whatever game I'm playing. I love several games that have plots that are weak, thin, dull or just painfully straightforward because by having a strong cast of central characters and/or a primary gameplay loop that makes the neurons fire in my brain sastisfactorily, it doesn't matter. And honestly, I think it would do us all some good to remember the MST3K Mantra if we find ourselves going over points like this too often:

 

[CasualAntlerEnjoyer]

And honestly, I think it would do us all some good to remember the MST3K Mantra if we find ourselves going over points like this too often:

I respect your reasoning, but the lorewhore in me still wants to smack you with a frying pan for bringing up that dreaded thing.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Tiny gripe in that, in the scene where Garret is getting ready to get Gweyr back, he refers to Ryn in the third person. Assuming she's in you're party, she speaks up, mentioning that the one he's talking about is her, and he proceeds to continue talking about her in third person with no acknowledgement that she's there. It feels kinda awkward that he just completely ignores her like that. Would've been neater if he acknowledged this and addressed his next statement directly to her, instead of talking like she's not there.

Spoiler: Image

 

[MarcoPolo121]

Wait, you named your character "Luminescent"?

 

[Melancholy Man]

Okay, I'm about to go play the new patch that just dropped and frankly, I've been waiting for this moment for a while, so the rant I was working up while lying awake in bed at 6 in the morning will have to be this brief snippet instead:

I just don't care about plot holes or realistic logic problems in games, especially not porn games, as much as some of you guys do. If this was a movie or a book then sure, maybe I'd have harsher words, but this is a video game, a video game primarily about fucking everything with an open hole you meet, and I do not care about the narrative of games half as much as the playable/recruitable characters and the core gameplay loop of whatever game I'm playing. I love several games that have plots that are weak, thin, dull or just painfully straightforward because by having a strong cast of central characters and/or a primary gameplay loop that makes the neurons fire in my brain sastisfactorily, it doesn't matter. And honestly, I think it would do us all some good to remember the MST3K Mantra if we find ourselves going over points like this too often:

I respect the mindset to turn your brain off or ignore the things you don't like to enjoy the things you do, but there are lvls to the amount of bs ppl can tolerate before ppl just say it's a silly little low effort game, dismissing all the hard work ppl put in. I keep seeing the defense that its a porn game but folks forget Fate Stay Night was a porn game, but the story was so put together that you could lose yourself in it; Monstergirl quest had a banger of a story with character arcs, moments of contemplation, whole side-stories, and it kept the plotholes to a minimum while still serving copious amounts of fetish porn. We're all adults here, things don't have to be brainless.

 

[Nuin]

I respect the mindset to turn your brain off or ignore the things you don't like to enjoy the things you do, but there are lvls to the amount of bs ppl can tolerate before ppl just say it's a silly little low effort game, dismissing all the hard work ppl put in. I keep seeing the defense that its a porn game but folks forget Fate Stay Night was a porn game, but the story was so put together that you could lose yourself in it; Monstergirl quest had a banger of a story with character arcs, moments of contemplation, whole side-stories, and it kept the plotholes to a minimum while still serving copious amounts of fetish porn. We're all adults here, things don't have to be brainless.

And they were all VNs, something quite different than CoC. Also, I remember you bickering about CoC2's bad combat system and what could be changed "to make it great again" aswell? Monster Girl Quest had an absolutely straightforward, shallow combat system that left no choices and was rinse and repeat… right now however it's used as a prime example albeit being a completely different type of game altogether. I don't remember having the choice of either following Alice or Ilias in the original trilogy, do you? The whole story is written without one semblance of self-control regarding the player. So regarding story-writing you are right now comparing not even apples against pears, but rather sweet potato against oranges. Something entirely and coherently different. And right now I really do have to say your constant suggestions for improvement and "critique" (which through it's frequency I started calling nitpicking for myself) does start getting obnoxious to read albeit it just being two or three days you started…

Your attitude seeping out between your writing simply spells bs for me - to say it with your words.

 

[Tide Hunter]

Wait, you named your character "Luminescent"?

Yeah, that character was one of two I created with the specific goal of having them become a Valkyrie. The other's called "Holy Blade," which is even less of a name lol.

 

[Kingu2]

I feel that I should say that I do like CoC2 immensly despite all that I critisize it for. The story and gameplay are both exceptional and the smut is top notch. I wouldn't give this game nearly as much attention as I do if I didn't enjoy it. There are lots of games that I love that have very flawed stories. hell Fallout 3 is one of my all time favorite games. Just because I acknoledge and point out the flaws in a story doesn't mean I hate it. So please don't take my critisizm as some kind of attack or that I'm having some kind of meltdown or something.

 

[wolfraider13]

And they were all VNs, something quite different than CoC. Also, I remember you bickering about CoC2's bad combat system and what could be changed "to make it great again" aswell? Monster Girl Quest had an absolutely straightforward, shallow combat system that left no choices and was rinse and repeat… right now however it's used as a prime example albeit being a completely different type of game altogether. I don't remember having the choice of either following Alice or Ilias in the original trilogy, do you? The whole story is written without one semblance of self-control regarding the player. So regarding story-writing you are right now comparing not even apples against pears, but rather sweet potato against oranges. Something entirely and coherently different. And right now I really do have to say your constant suggestions for improvement and "critique" (which through it's frequency I started calling nitpicking for myself) does start getting obnoxious to read albeit it just being two or three days you started…

Your attitude seeping out between your writing simply spells bs for me - to say it with your words.

Cool Signature...That's it...that's all I got...

 

[Melancholy Man]

And they were all VNs, something quite different than CoC. Also, I remember you bickering about CoC2's bad combat system and what could be changed "to make it great again" aswell? Monster Girl Quest had an absolutely straightforward, shallow combat system that left no choices and was rinse and repeat… right now however it's used as a prime example albeit being a completely different type of game altogether. I don't remember having the choice of either following Alice or Ilias in the original trilogy, do you? The whole story is written without one semblance of self-control regarding the player. So regarding story-writing you are right now comparing not even apples against pears, but rather sweet potato against oranges. Something entirely and coherently different. And right now I really do have to say your constant suggestions for improvement and "critique" (which through it's frequency I started calling nitpicking for myself) does start getting obnoxious to read albeit it just being two or three days you started…

Your attitude seeping out between your writing simply spells bs for me - to say it with your words.

And what attitude is that exactly? If I give a critique on something I give a potential fix, I don't give out asshole comments with no grounds. I provide a reason and evidence; on that note you can quote me since you've been reading my posts, don't put words in my mouth. If you push me, I push you, if you talk nice, I talk nice; I give the same energy I get.
I drew on MGQ and Fate S/N as examples of porn games with solid, engaging stories with a similar presentation style. Don't twist my words to suit your argument; I also like how you olayed the fact that Fate S/N used different routes and player-agency to a certain extent to do a character study on its MC.
How is noticing multiple grammar errors and misspellings nitpicking when they happen so frequently, noticing severe plotholes is nitpick? I guess we just see things differently. Whenever I have a nitpick I call it a nitpick, like my 'flavor text for combat' posts. Maybe the fact that one of the main advertised features of the game being the TFs actually wholes no grounds on story, narrative, and barely affects combat; only used as copy-paste surface level references to the player's appearance also a nitpick?
I like the game, and its concepts, and its got ideas cooking for quest design but I'm not into giving mindless praise.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Well I've just finished all the Ashe's cave content, definitely not for me on the account that its all

Spoiler

"PC becomes a fucktoy"

theming of it for both Azzy and Eve. I'd really hope they do a neutral option or just give us an option to circumvent the requirement for the spear and just give us the TF.

 

[MarcoPolo121]

I'd really hope they do a neutral option or just give us an option to circumvent the requirement for the spear and just give us the TF.

That is NOT going to happen, and as we've said before you can just have Azzy take the spear out and switch her back to whatever set you were using before.

 

[Dude_with_bad_english]

SFMBE

Ok, time for a little grumbling.
It would be great if some options had more clarification in the description. I know that most of the buttons are self-explanatory, but there are a few pitfalls here. Where there in sex option you get something extra and description mentions it, that's great, but if it doesn't then you might get an unwanted surprise. Especially if it changes the character's attitude towards you or affects the content with him in general.
Specifically, this concerns content with Evelyn. In the first encounter, out of pure curiosity, I looked out the door. And the scene elicited an "oh shit, I'm sorry!" reaction, I closed the door and decided to talk to the lady later, because there's always an opportunity to talk later, right? Wrong, turns out the button I labeled as the option to be embarrassed/show some politeness actually erases the character with all of her content.
And when the patch with dommy Azzy appeared I had to go to Wiki in order to remember that this character even exists and what the deal is with her.
Not that I'm upset about losing one character and some of the possible side quest content. The whole "submit to me immediately or don't talk to me ever again" situation with Evelyn is not my cup of tea. Well, at least not for the current run. But man, a little bit of clarification would have been nice.

 

[Melancholy Man]

SFMBE

Ok, time for a little grumbling.
It would be great if some options had more clarification in the description. I know that most of the buttons are self-explanatory, but there are a few pitfalls here. Where there in sex option you get something extra and description mentions it, that's great, but if it doesn't then you might get an unwanted surprise. Especially if it changes the character's attitude towards you or affects the content with him in general.
Specifically, this concerns content with Evelyn. In the first encounter, out of pure curiosity, I looked out the door. And the scene elicited an "oh shit, I'm sorry!" reaction, I closed the door and decided to talk to the lady later, because there's always an opportunity to talk later, right? Wrong, turns out the button I labeled as the option to be embarrassed/show some politeness actually erases the character with all of her content.
And when the patch with dommy Azzy appeared I had to go to Wiki in order to remember that this character even exists and what the deal is with her.
Not that I'm upset about losing one character and some of the possible side quest content. The whole "submit to me immediately or don't talk to me ever again" situation with Evelyn is not my cup of tea. Well, at least not for the current run. But man, a little bit of clarification would have been nice.

Right?! Like, why can't we just be friends -I'm perfectly fine being her wingman- and have a decent convo, why I gotta be on her mike spiting lyrics?

 

[Melancholy Man]

That is NOT going to happen, and as we've said before you can just have Azzy take the spear out and switch her back to whatever set you were using before.

well shit, guess she's stuck in her cave now