Vic 2.0 (Not you)

Wsan

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And for PC, it will make them face the reality of their dad wanting a clone rather than a child

He didn't, though. You're free to infer that and yes I'm familiar with the arguments, but he never says or even implies it.

The news is unwelcome. Still, he’s lived a rich, full life - fuller than most. With twenty years ahead of him, the suddenly old industrialite looks toward siring a successor; an heir or heiress to carry on his legacy and to ensure that the Steele name is honored throughout all of history.


With the next Planet Rush a scant nineteen years ahead, the timing is ideal. Just as his offspring reaches adulthood, the United Galactic Confederacy will be expanding its borders, turning on the hundreds of warp gates it has shot out into unexplored space. The rushes - performed every century or so - always result in a galactic free-for-all.


It’s perfect, Victor thinks. His child could rise to greatness, becoming richer and more powerful than he ever was. And perhaps, with a bit of luck, a better person as well.
Victor pondered on just how he would raise his son and future heir. His first instinct was to pamper him and give him a head start on life.

I highly recommend actually re-reading the choices and dialogue when you start a new game and actually reading through the tutorial again. In no way is it ever implied that Vic is anything but a good dad.

With that, you can open my deposit box in the bank I own on this station and take control of my company,” Even projected through the soulless holoprojector, your dad’s spirit shines through his tear-misted eyes. “I’m sure you’ll make me proud out there.”

I actually used to think he was a shitty dad because of the actions of his that you learn postmortem - but frankly, the actions someone takes out in the world are possibly completely unrelated to how you treat your family. There are complete assholes out there that do everything they do in order to provide a living for their family. Obviously Vic wasn't in need of money and hadn't even given thought to his family before being informed of his death, but shit. Having kids will change people overnight. There's no reason he couldn't have.
 

Nik_van_Rijn

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He didn't, though. You're free to infer that and yes I'm familiar with the arguments, but he never says or even implies it.


I highly recommend actually re-reading the choices and dialogue when you start a new game and actually reading through the tutorial again. In no way is it ever implied that Vic is anything but a good dad.


I actually used to think he was a shitty dad because of the actions of his that you learn postmortem - but frankly, the actions someone takes out in the world are possibly completely unrelated to how you treat your family. There are complete assholes out there that do everything they do in order to provide a living for their family. Obviously Vic wasn't in need of money and hadn't even given thought to his family before being informed of his death, but shit. Having kids will change people overnight. There's no reason he couldn't have.

I was talking specifically about what PC will have to deal with in case of OP's idea becoming canon. I never actually agreed with labeling Victor as a bad dad, despite all of his shortcomings.


I'd even argue that even if actually having a child wasn't his initial intention and he just had to settle down for this option, he could have been a good dad despite that. I know enough people (including myself) whose existence was a mishap, but their parents rouse up to the task and turned out to be at least decent at the whole parenting thing.
 

PyrateHyena

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Oct 13, 2015
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Not gonna lie. This sounds like a really tragic idea. A clone convinced that it is Vic and believes that it should carry on the originals goals, only to be discarded and meet the very person that "stole" its legacy and reason for existence.

Hitchcocky isn't it? :D In my opinion this sounds better and better.
 

Savin

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Anyway! To bring us back around on topic (before Fen has a conniption about people saying Tricky Vic was a Bad Daddy):


A straight-up CLONE of Victor is probably out: it'd have the same genetic faults as Vic himself, probably, and even if it didn't it wouldn't have his memories, which makes it as if not less useful than a legitimate offspring. HOWEVER, Fen suggests a robotic doppleganger with Vic's memories/persona uploaded could be a thing instead! Which also neatly avoids the "what'd Tricky Vic look like anyway" question, and opens up all sorts of fun possibilities to explore the A.I.-G. concept from a different angle than Gianna. 


Like I said, I like the idea! 
 

Wsan

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I'm sorry, Codecat.

Don't be, Fen has been asking why people (the writers in particular) think Vic was a shitty dad. This'll be great to show him. Also I'm not going to get wound up over a discussion on whether a fictional father is a deadbeat or not.  :D


I dunno how much of your reading (or mine) is just conflicting headcanon. The way I see it, there was probably never anything Vic's child was going to do other than become the company's CEO - like, really, you're going to eke out a mediocre existence on Tavros or whatever instead of inheriting your father's trillion-dollar company? Offering your child the right to choose is definitely something a good parent does, but there's three problems


1) You have to choose to become the company's CEO anyway because otherwise there's no video game. This is a meta-reason, but regardless, it had to happen anyway.


2) It's arguable that the right to choose what you're going to do with your life is a luxury afforded to those who aren't the heir of a multi-trillion dollar megacorp. It sucks, but frankly, that's life.


3) Your father forcing you to undertake the planet rush is, in his mind, the greatest gift he can give you. That's what matters most, I think. It's a matter of intent - he wants you to see and sample the wonders of the galaxy, like he did, and inherit the company at the end of it. Thing is, Vic's a fucking weirdo. He was a planet rusher and adventurer for like, 160 years of his life, never looking backwards (and more than once you meet the results of his decisions). Of course a person like that ends up with a weird and twisted value system and unknowingly imposes it on their child; he has no idea that this isn't the best thing he can give his kid. Why wouldn't Steele Jr. want to lead the same life he did? After all, his life was fuckin' awesome and the only reason he even stopped was because the doctor told him he was going to die. So his logic would go, I think.
 

Savin

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1) You have to choose to become the company's CEO anyway because otherwise there's no video game. This is a meta-reason, but regardless, it had to happen anyway.

WEEEEEEEELL, technically, we could have done something like this:


>Go to funeral
>Get will from Maki
>Option "Seek Probes" or "No Thanks."
>If choose "No Thanks," PC tells Maki to shove it, walks off, and we Good End epilogue about your life of free-wheeling space adventures or whatever.

Robodad x Robomom shipfic when?

Ohlord.
 

Wsan

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Also I'm totally against the idea of Vic's memories being housed in a robo-shell. Not because I hate the idea of fatherly robo-incest (I don't like it, but that's not why) but because that's gonna be fucking weird. Imagine, if you will, literally ANY companion's reaction upon finding out the PC has their dead dad in a robotic shell and is having sex with them on the regular. Just imagine how you'd react. I'd wig the fuck out and jet back to my ship, never to be encountered by the PC again.  :v:


Maybe as a non-sexual encounter rather than a sexable companion but - haha - this is TiTS. I'm just saying that keeping a robotic version of your dead dad around is like the saddest manifestation of abandonment issues I have ever heard of.  :negative:
 

Savin

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Maybe as a non-sexual encounter rather than a sexable companion but - haha - this is TiTS. 

Oh god no, I wouldn't want him to be a companion! The idea was, I thought, for him to be an antagonist, if anything -- sort of a quasi-rival, or maybe just the villain of a series of sidequests in the late game.


and then Junior gets to take his impotent frustrations over Daddy abandoning him by buttfucking Victoria Steelebot into the ground.
 

Wsan

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Oh god no, I wouldn't want him to be a companion! The idea was, I thought, for him to be an antagonist, if anything -- sort of a quasi-rival, or maybe just the villain of a series of sidequests in the late game.


and then Junior gets to take his impotent frustrations over Daddy abandoning him by buttfucking Victoria Steelebot into the ground.

Oh, sounds good. reads smallprint


Damn it.
 

Gedan

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Oh god no, I wouldn't want him to be a companion! The idea was, I thought, for him to be an antagonist, if anything -- sort of a quasi-rival, or maybe just the villain of a series of sidequests in the late game.


and then Junior gets to take his impotent frustrations over Daddy abandoning him by buttfucking Victoria Steelebot into the ground.

Max is actually Robodad and was all along - the process of creating a simulated doppelganger is what ultimately triggered the unstoppable biological failure in dear old daddy, hence prompting the creation of an actual heir. Not just to take lead of the company, but to actually stop Robodad (who is clearly and obviously becoming Skynet because reasons).


e: And Jack/jill is actually a clone of the PC.


JAZZ HANDS.
 
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Glassboy

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Sep 6, 2015
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Anyway! To bring us back around on topic (before Fen has a conniption about people saying Tricky Vic was a Bad Daddy):


A straight-up CLONE of Victor is probably out: it'd have the same genetic faults as Vic himself, probably, and even if it didn't it wouldn't have his memories, which makes it as if not less useful than a legitimate offspring. HOWEVER, Fen suggests a robotic doppleganger with Vic's memories/persona uploaded could be a thing instead! Which also neatly avoids the "what'd Tricky Vic look like anyway" question, and opens up all sorts of fun possibilities to explore the A.I.-G. concept from a different angle than Gianna. 


Like I said, I like the idea! 


*cough*

Then there's always the possibility that Victor might just have had an AI made with his brain patterns printed onto it. That way there'd be no risk of the AI trying to steal the company under his true heir (can't open the genetic locks) and the AI could be programmed to shut down when Steele Jr. gets the keys to the CEO's office.

*cough*

In all seriousness though, a clone of Vic would only have his genetic faults if it was taken from cells when he was already 200-ish years old. If Doctors took stem cells from Vic shortly after he was born (which they do nowadays) and preserved them they should be capable of creating a clone from those cells.
 Of course you could argue his brain (thoughts, feelings ,electro neural mapping, whatever) had changed and grown so much that a body made from his old cells wouldn't be capable of supporting it.
 This is a bit of a problem with Sci-Fi themes, until/if we advance to the point of being capable of creating clones/A.I. and imprinting our memories onto them it's all speculative and we could just argue indefinitely (which is pretty fun I have to admit :p), in the end you just need to decide on something relatively reasonable and then rely on the players willing suspension of disbelief.
 
 The only thing that I'd say should definitely be considered is that this will be a copy of Victor; not the original. And if you've ever tried printing a photo, then scanning it and printing it again a couple of times you can see that the quality deteriorates over time. The clone(or android) would be imperfect, whether the differences are unnoticeable or if we end up with some sort of GLaDOS Dad (GLaDAD?) would be up to the creators.

 Or maybe I'm over thinking this and we should just focus on giving everyone their robo-Dad-incest-fantasies...
 

jarllee97

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Jun 13, 2016
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Also I'm totally against the idea of Vic's memories being housed in a robo-shell. Not because I hate the idea of fatherly robo-incest (I don't like it, but that's not why) but because that's gonna be fucking weird. Imagine, if you will, literally ANY companion's reaction upon finding out the PC has their dead dad in a robotic shell and is having sex with them on the regular. Just imagine how you'd react. I'd wig the fuck out and jet back to my ship, never to be encountered by the PC again.  :v:


Maybe as a non-sexual encounter rather than a sexable companion but - haha - this is TiTS. I'm just saying that keeping a robotic version of your dead dad around is like the saddest manifestation of abandonment issues I have ever heard of.  :negative:


98bdc0e90781250310568e378a7bfe96a00769277c7754f1a628412904b71566.jpg
 

Couch

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Max is actually Robodad and was all along - the process of creating a simulated doppelganger is what ultimately triggered the unstoppable biological failure in dear old daddy, hence prompting the creation of an actual heir. Not just to take lead of the company, but to actually stop Robodad (who is clearly and obviously becoming Skynet because reasons).


e: And Jack/jill is actually a clone of the PC.


JAZZ HANDS.

I'm reminded of Pluto Nash...
 

Ethereal Dragon

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God this just reminds me of bad eps of Futurama :shepicide: with robothis and robothat.
 
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OnyxDrakkenblade

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@Mysty: Sorry you are presuming WAY too much about Vic. I'm just going to say that it is a LOT harder being a good father than anyone seems to give credit for. FFS in the modern world you can have your children taken away for raising your voice to them, let along disciplining them.


Deep breath - nope nope not soapboxing.


@OP: I have to say that I prefer Vic as the unsalvagable fallen father figure. I feel it destroys the impact of the intro if Vic is somehow involved in the planetrush himself. As a.i. or anything else. I doubt my thinking will change anything in the long run of this train, but I'd like it noted here for posterity :p

In all seriousness though, a clone of Vic would only have his genetic faults if it was taken from cells when he was already 200-ish years old. If Doctors took stem cells from Vic shortly after he was born (which they do nowadays) and preserved them they should be capable of creating a clone from those cells.


 Of course you could argue his brain (thoughts, feelings ,electro neural mapping, whatever) had changed and grown so much that a body made from his old cells wouldn't be capable of supporting it.
 This is a bit of a problem with Sci-Fi themes, until/if we advance to the point of being capable of creating clones/A.I. and imprinting our memories onto them it's all speculative and we could just argue indefinitely (which is pretty fun I have to admit :p), in the end you just need to decide on something relatively reasonable and then rely on the players willing suspension of disbelief.

This is why I like the Aeon Flux take on this. The original teaches the clone to be it's equal and then the clone teaches it's clone and so on. Kind of like the ultimate game of telephone throughout time.
 
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jarllee97

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Jun 13, 2016
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I'm gonna just interject here and say that we all have different views of Victor.


Much like the game itself the backstory is up to us to decide. I see Vic as a tragic father that fucked up raising his kid(s) but realized he made a mistake only after its too late. The quest he gives you is him trying to give you a chance at adventure and a good life since he wasn't able to give you the childhood you deserve. I also believe he's trying to make sure you don't make the same mistakes he did when it comes to family, hence him giving you a nursery so that you can (potentially) spend time with almost all your children. He also set you up in a situation that is damn near identical situation from when he went on his planet rush so that you could prove yourself better than he was.


But that's only half the coin.


It's also easy to see him as a cold calculating asshole that only gave life to you so that his legacy stays with his blood. He also makes a point to block you out of the company that was supposed to be yours and only will give you any power if you prove yourself "worthy". Then he leaves you with a damn near impossible scenario where you get an old junk ship, one crew member that has zero practical skills, almost no money, and with almost no knowledge on what to even do. Also side note, the ass never let you spend time with your mom and the only thing you know about her is a picture he sent you in an email.


There's also the third possibility where Victor is nothing but exposition to porn game where you fuck aliens :smugdog:


In the end it's as much up to each individual person to decide what Vic was like and whether we hate or love him.
 

Ethereal Dragon

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 Then he leaves you with a damn near impossible scenario where you get an old junk ship, one crew member that has zero practical skills, almost no money, and with almost no knowledge on what to even do.

lol but she's such a great cleaner of sticky fluids and she can help you increase how much you ejaculate! :p
 
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jarllee97

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Jun 13, 2016
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lol but she's such a great cleaner of sticky fluids and she can help you increase how much you ejaculate! :p

Your right. I was wrong, Vic clearly gave you the best available person in the galaxy.


BEST. DAD. EVER. :perfect:

I can see the point you're making here, but I don't feel it has to be that obtuse. Especially since Fen (going off what Savin said, sorry to throw you under the bus, bud) doesn't seem to agree with the idea that Victor should/could be viewed as a terrible father. There's far too much effort and care put into the world and background of TiTS to have the catalyst of the conflict able to be interpreted so ambiguously. I don't think that achieves anything but weakening the narrative.

True. I'm just horrible when it comes to making head canons.
 

Couch

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I think too many people are assuming off-screen happenings that aren't presented to players. Vic, as far as I'm aware, never even says your name. In his self-recorded will, something seen by no one but Captain Steele, he doesn't once mention how he loves you, cares about you, respects what you've done up to that point, wishes he could have spent more time with you, or express any kind of understanding that you may want to do something other than emulate him. He constantly prattles on about how proud he assumes you'll make him. Nothing more.


If we had regular mentions of fond memories of Vic, him taking time to care for Steele and actually give them a childhood, I'd be much less judgmental. But we don't have that. Assuming those moments exist without tangible examples is just as flawed as assuming they don't exist. 


What we do know is that he created Captain Steele specifically to replace him, filled Steele's childhood and youth with constant mention of how they were supposed to replace him, forcibly guided their schooling and interests in a direction especially conducive to the highly dangerous and fringe lifestyle of planet rushing in preparation to have them replace him, then fell out of contact once Steele was off and away until he died. Then, after dying a death for which he had 20 years of warning and still neglected to tell his heir anything about, ambushes them from beyond the grave with a quest they've been unknowingly groomed for their whole life. He doesn't even give you time to properly grieve, dismissing the notion with "I hope you aren't too torn up over it" and a request that you drink some whiskey in his honor.


If he was a "good" father, I'd imagine his only legitimate child (who's a teenager, by the way) would be more than a little broken up about his sudden and completely unexpected death. Yet he just kind of glosses over that. To me, it feels like he expects Steele to hardly even care...


I could keep going for like three hours with this, but I'm not going to because I think the key thing this boils down to is presentation. To me, a very anal and detail-oriented individual that doesn't like assuming something's good when it looks bad, Vic is presented as a very lackluster and narcissistic father. If he is not supposed to be that, I think there is a lot that could be done to clean up his presentation and show people very plainly that he was, at the very least, a father focused on more than just himself and how his child will represent him. I would like for Vic to be a good father, I would like for Steele's quest to be motivated by more than just Vic's conniving manipulation of their life, but right now nothing in the game gives me that feeling. Several things give me the opposite feeling. That's where my impression of him comes from.

So, this is a known issue.  Jim recognized the same general problems and made an effort to fix it, at least the chargen-related parts.  There's only so much one can do when one of the traits you pick in chargen is dick size, but an attempt was made.


What Jim didn't touch, and what maybe needs a rewrite now that we've been at this for a few years and gotten the feedback, is the stuff between chargen and the proper start of the game.  If you write a revision for that, I'm fairly sure Fen will be receptive.


That Victor sired a slew of bastards across the galaxy, and as such is impossible to declare a good father overall, is unavoidable.  However, I think the intent has always been that he did right by Captain Steele.  If that's not coming across, it should be re-examined.
 

CrowgoesCaw

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Did everyone just forget about the email he sent you from beyond? It felt like kind of a touching moment where he's checking up on how you're doing "You’ve got your ship, which means you’re well on your way to the first probe. Or maybe you’re further along, and just never check your email.", making sure you're being safe about spam "I trust you’re savvy enough to know not to click on everything in your inbox", telling you a small bit about a story that gets cut short on his rambling."something always finds a way through), especially anything from any alien princesses wanting to marry you. Always a scam, trust me. Except for that one time on Revenna VII..." He even tells you not to be too rough on your cousin which is nice."Just try not to hate them, especially the kids. You’d be pretty messed up if your daddy was a petty, scheming, back-stabbing bastard, too. Well, more so than I am, anyway! Hahaha." The sweetest thing is that there's a picture of the family from right after you were born with vic and mom steele. "Attached below the email is a picture you’ve never seen before. It’s your father and mother, with dad leaning over a hospital bed, looking down on baby you in your mother’s arms. All three of you are smiling." That has to at least be worth something or maybe I'm just far too easily swayed by fluff. 
 

CrowgoesCaw

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I do remember that, and, while it is a nice gesture (especially promoting mercy for the Rival), it alone doesn't compensate for all of the other issues I have with Vic and his decisions. It also kind of pulls up the uncomfortable issue of Steele mom, and how what actually happened to her isn't addressed. Did Vic drive her away? Did she just leave you? What happened? We don't really know.


Figuring that out would be a major step towards potentially smoothing out the wrinkles in Vic's presentation, but Steele mom is also a dicey issue.

That's fair, as for the stuff with Mom Steele what I found after a quick replay of the tutorial; Not much is mentioned beyond Vic choosing what race the mom should be for how their child will come out. So at best it's just another slight quirk in Vic's ongoing weirdness, at worst she was literally just a surrogate for his heir chosen on race. Which at that point makes me feel like I'm reading way too deep into things.
 

Non Entity

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Oh god no, I wouldn't want him to be a companion! The idea was, I thought, for him to be an antagonist, if anything -- sort of a quasi-rival, or maybe just the villain of a series of sidequests in the late game.


and then Junior gets to take his impotent frustrations over Daddy abandoning him by buttfucking Victoria Steelebot into the ground.

That is pretty much what I was getting at. I also really like the AI-G idea. I never really imagined that the copy of Vic, robot or not, would have the original's memories or consciousness. As for Dad himself I really don't have any insightful opinions on who he is or how he could be a better person if not better character.


I'm grateful though, that the idea interests so many people. Thanks all.
 
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Emerald

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*fidgets awkwardly* Weeeeell this thread got all soapbox-y real fricking fast. o3o'
 

Fenoxo

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Determining a child's future and assigning them a reason for existence before they're even conceived is being a terrible, self-obsessed parent.

Planning on having your kid take over and run the family business someday is pretty goddamned common thing for a parent to do. The reason why a baby is conceived has almost nothing to do with whether someone is a good parent. For a lot of kids, the reasoning would be "because I thought his/her mom was a hottie, and I was horny." That doesn't mean their parents are bad, and neither does pushing the kid toward going into the family business.

I don't care if Vic would take a bullet for Steele Jr., because he'd probably just bleed out with an expectant look in his eyes and a shit-eating grin as he assumes it is a given fact that his child will echo his every sentiment and characteristic. It's about Vic's mindset as a father, not his actions. It's about the standards and expectations Steele is held to without their own input. To be so egotistical as to plot out your child's future in every conceivable capacity, and then posthumously enforce that plot through pure assumption and narcissistic momentum, is... disgusting.

This reads like a massive projection entirely based upon your pre-existing dislike of the character. For instance the class choice is entirely the PC's decision. Vic suggests the three options as good ways to learn your way around the galaxy, and the PC obviously has a high enough opinion of him that they stick with them.

Steele's entire life is controlled by Vic, and his obvious, overbearing expectations are present every step of the way. He doesn't even properly explain himself to Steele, but Steele just goes with it. Probably because they were never allowed any kind of self-determination in their entire life up to that point.

I'm not sure how your dad pushing you to develop as a human being and always having advice and suggestions is considered "controlling every facet of your life and never giving you any free will." You are reading what you want to read into these sentence abstracts.

He didn't even tell his child he was going to die. He knew, and he didn't say anything

Maybe, just maybe he didn't want his impending death hanging over his kid for the best years their life. Maybe he wanted his kid's memories of him to be of the dad that was there for him/her while he/she was growing up, smiling and happy instead of a miserable, rotting hunk of flesh rattling its last attempts at breath. Maybe he had slightly less altruistic reasons for it, but ultimately, passing without warning is hardly the most terrible thing.

Because fuck you and your dreams. You're not allowed to have dreams, you have a shadow to stand in. Even if one day you do cast your own, eerily similar shadow...

Yeah, fuck Dad for giving you a completely restored classic space ship, top of the line technology to inform you and keep you healthy, and giving you a push to see the universe for yourself instead of letting his death propel you into corporate office chair. You couldn't possibly use this opportunity to pursue your own dreams like amassing your own fortune, gathering a harem of your own, meeting some of the galaxy's top scientists, becoming one of the galaxy's best pilots, becoming one of the galaxy's best mercenaries, or just fucking around on New Texas for a couple years. Fuck you, Dad.

And, given everything surrounding Briget and Steele's actual mother, there's at least some evidence to support the idea that Vic was a pretty lackadaisical "show dad" at best, and completely distant at worst. There seems to be a rather large misconception going around that an affluent life is immediately a happy and/or fulfilling life, too...

There's definitely a misconception going around that an affluent life is incapable of producing well-adjusted children. Also, please consider that Briget isn't in the game and that anything Savin has written thus far is subject to edits, changes, or complete removal.

Anyway! To bring us back around on topic (before Fen has a conniption about people saying Tricky Vic was a Bad Daddy):

Or maybe you could make statements that don't subtly denigrate your boss and work to correct misconceptions about a character.

If we had regular mentions of fond memories of Vic, him taking time to care for Steele and actually give them a childhood, I'd be much less judgmental. But we don't have that. Assuming those moments exist without tangible examples is just as flawed as assuming they don't exist. 

We have the email (kudos to Savin for that one), as well as a few mentions here and there. I know there's a reference in the Treatment about how much the PC enjoyed going to a resort with his/her dad, for example.


Ultimately, given the nature of the game, there's not a ton of focus on thinking about a dead dad who mostly exists to drive the tutorial section of the game. Most people don't want to dwell on their character's pretend childhood when they can be out fucking about.
 

Brock

Well-Known Member
Oh god no, I wouldn't want him to be a companion! The idea was, I thought, for him to be an antagonist, if anything -- sort of a quasi-rival, or maybe just the villain of a series of sidequests in the late game.


and then Junior gets to take his impotent frustrations over Daddy abandoning him by buttfucking Victoria Steelebot into the ground.

Victoria Steelbot?
 

Fenoxo

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 Every suggestion and piece of advice is colored with the ulterior motive of angling Steele towards the eventual probe hunt.

I'm going to have to just check out of this discussion. You're obviously reading very different things into my writing than what was intended, and there's little I'm going to be able to do about it in the short term. I could spend another 30 minutes to an hour sorting through your message and trying to address you point by point, but my time would better be spent coding Wsan's submission or burning some calories on a pokewalk.


Suffice to say that Victor is not meant to come off as a deadbeat, manipulative jerk for the PC's upbringing, even if he was fairly absent for his bastards.


Edits: typo fixes and slight timeframe adjustment.
 
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