Thoughts on this game so far?

[quazi_neutrino]

Hey guys, I'm new here but I recently played through CoC2, and I'd just like to share some of my thoughts about this game as it is right now.
First of all, out of all the games I've played, this is the first to actually get me heartsick after reaching the end. Sure, a lot of films and video games leave the audience filled with emotional feels, but man, this game left me empty inside. It's a result of having such well-developed characters, the ability to create a connection with them way closer than in usual games, as well as the variety of characters available. Maybe I'm just an attention-deprived boi who needs to go find himself a gf, but seriously, the level of detail and character written into the dialogue in this game is insane.
Additionally, I've also played CoC(1) a while back, and it was nice to be able to have a ton of different possible interactions and variables, but as I have noticed, as well as read from here, in CoC2 you guys sacrificed that for much higher quality writing, and it really has paid off. Now, as a software engineer student myself, I would give some recommendations for the future development of this game as well as certain plot/feature elements I myself would change/add, but I have noticed that you guys tend to respond negatively to such requests (mostly as you've been so busy adding already planned content), and so I'll just keep them to myself for now.
Anyways, I dunno whether this'll spark any discussions, or if appreciation threads are even allowed, but regardless, absolutely amazing design and encaptivating writing, and really just a job well done. I look forward to see how this game turns out in the future, and in the mean time, good luck!

 

[1234567890van]

Honestly the emphasis on the game part of a porn game is what draws me back and waiting for more. I don't mind that most porn games take the form of visual novels, but I'm generally not going to play a visual novel over and over again. Even with most rpgs and platformers the game is either pretty bad, or the game aspect feels dull. Obviously focusing on writing good smut and creating alluring visuals is important, but you can only read and see the same thing so many times. While they are certainly a cut above most lewd games, even the other Fenoxo properties' combat feels kinda token; I find it more fruitful to run in CoC1 and TiTS can be completely destroyed with any optimized build.

The combat in CoC2 is generally challenges, encourages trying many different builds on one character, and can get tense when there is no camp or settlement nearby. The need to explore to find new paths is great, as it forces players to fight; unless you pour all points into agility the enemy will likely have better initiative and those free hits will add up. Hopefully there will be more viable split-builds in the future; magic archery seems promising, but I'd love to also see paladins, battle mages, dancing knights, and others I don't have the imagination to think of but most certainly want.

 

[quazi_neutrino]

I agree, there is only so much that can be added to the replayability of a game that doesn't purely focus on building different strategies and multiple different paths. I just want to comment that some of the combat in this game feels a little... inconsistent? A few of the battles I wasn't able to really figure out, like the drider encounter enemy seems to be able to use this poison move that does enough damage to 1-hit kill even max level units, but only sometimes uses it? I ended up just fleeing battles against her because I didn't want to take the risk of the PC just being killed turn 1 by a random encounter
There's also the fact that resolve/mental attacks seem to be somewhat rare for the player's team, many units are immune to them, and they don't really go well with anything (I'm sure that will probably change eventually).
And about the Sense mechanic, does it have any real use/purpose to exist? It uses up a turn, is useless against some enemies, and the information you get from sensing is only rarely ever useful.
Combat in this game definitely feels more complicated, mostly because of the addition of multiple characters on the player's team, and unlike CoC1 you can't really just have a single team that sweeps everything, due to many more types of attacks, but at the same time I feel that's partly due to the max level being 4.

 

[The Observer]

A few of the battles I wasn't able to really figure out, like the drider encounter enemy seems to be able to use this poison move that does enough damage to 1-hit kill even max level units, but only sometimes uses it?

"Max level" means little. All it strictly tells me is that your minimum toughness is 6. It says nothing about your resistances, your damage mitigation, your damage absorbance, or your elemental resistances. People come up to us and tell us they got one-shot with glass cannon builds against a hard-hitting offensive miniboss. Our only response is: "working as intended".

What we've observed is that players won't use buffs or consumable items that are there for their benefit. They won't get a drink at Garth's to maximise their toughness, they won't use steadfast tonic to improve their survivability, so on and so forth. Even if one absolutely refuses to change their equipment or build, the tools are there, they just don't get used because... well, who knows? For the same reason people are loathe to pop pots while adventuring in MMOs, I guess.

There's also the fact that resolve/mental attacks seem to be somewhat rare for the player's team, many units are immune to them, and they don't really go well with anything

What we've noticed in our observations is that while strategy A can be more efficient in dealing with an encounter than strategy B, if players are used to strategy B, they'll just keep on banging their head against it instead of switching to strategy A. The hornets and cultist evangelist are examples where resolve combat is far superior to HP combat because of their mechanics and stat blocks, but people will still try to beat them into submission anyway. Resolve combat against the Alraune is far superior because you don't have to deal with her statblock and 10%/round regeneration, but players will still try to beat her instead of simply teasing, which everyone can do. We've even had idiots try to outright beat the slimes into submission with penetrating damage because they've deliberately installed blinders on themselves instead of trying to tease.

Don't know what you are talking about, there are a lot of resolve damage attacks out there accessible to the player.

There aren't that many spirit-taxanomy enemies in the game yet, which are outright impervious to penetrating and crushing attacks. Just because we're kind enough to let players chip away at some encounters instead of making them outright immune doesn't mean there aren't advantages.

That being said, people also forget that there are four kinds of resolve damage: tease, drug, pheromone and mental. Immunity to one doesn't mean necessarily mean immunity to all. Eg. people erroneously assume Sigrune is impervious to resolve combat because she cannot be teased, but she takes mental damage just fine. Ditto Jen. If players had sensed her, they'd have known that, which ties into my point below.

And about the Sense mechanic, does it have any real use/purpose to exist? It uses up a turn, is useless against some enemies, and the information you get from sensing is only rarely ever useful.

*Sense's success ratio is based on your cunning and libido, against the enemy's cunning and with the enemy's libido; the exact formula is on the wiki. If your cunning and libido suck, don't expect to sense very much.

*Sense will tell you if an enemy has any abilities that can be learned with mirror stance.

*Once an enemy is sensed, that enemy type's information is always available from that point.

You see, the thing is that this is a porn game, and if we didn't let people mash 1 with normal encounters while having a reasonable chance of success they'd just walk away. Remember that the default game setting is only the champion is controlled, and everyone else is relegated to the AI. We could turn things up to the point where you would need to exploit elemental weaknesses and anticipate enemy moves to win, as well as all the other information from sense, but when people are already complaining about relatively straightforward encounters which are slightly more difficult like the drider queen, it doesn't seem worth it to make it mandatory, you know? Remember that we have people who keep on flailing at slimes with 90-95% resistance and not even considering tease as an option, so one can easily imagine the outcry if we made observing an enemy's statblock and strategising necessary for general encounters.

 

[quazi_neutrino]

"Max level" means little. All it strictly tells me is that your minimum toughness is 6. It says nothing about your resistances, your damage mitigation, your damage absorbance, or your elemental resistances. People come up to us and tell us they got one-shot with glass cannon builds against a hard-hitting offensive miniboss. Our only response is: "working as intended".

Looking back at my stats, both my toughness and physical resist for that save file were 5. I guess that explains it, although I don't remember ever being offered an opportunity to increase toughness in that playthrough

Remember that we have people who keep on flailing at slimes with 90-95% resistance and not even considering tease as an option, so one can easily imagine the outcry if we made observing an enemy's statblock and strategising necessary for general encounters.

Huh, I don't recall those things being a threat, even though I never used any resolve attacks in my main playthrough, maybe I got lucky or used something else I don't quite remember.

Anyways yeah, most players would rather just repeat lost battles using the same build, rather than look something up in the wiki. You can't really blame them. I personally wouldn't bother going back to a camp and switching my units, or even just change my powers in the journal, just to have a potentially better chance of beating a random wild encounter. That said, it would give some additional replayability to the game if you did add a "hard mode" which does force these strategies and makes it obvious.

EDIT:

Don't know what you are talking about, there are a lot of resolve damage attacks out there accessible to the player.

What I meant was that there aren't many companions (at least not afaik) who use resolve attacks a lot, and considering how much their turns matter in this game, it doesn't help when you're trying to tease the enemy and they just waste turns doing normal attacks. Maybe I could've come up with something if I had put more time into looking at each companions' powers and finding what would work best with a resolve damage build, but again it doesn't really feel worth the time to formulate such a strategy at this point.

 

[The Observer]

What I meant was that there aren't many companions (at least not afaik) who use resolve attacks a lot, and considering how much their turns matter in this game, it doesn't help when you're trying to tease the enemy and they just waste turns doing normal attacks. Maybe I could've come up with something if I had put more time into looking at each companions' powers and finding what would work best with a resolve damage build, but again it doesn't really feel worth the time to formulate such a strategy at this point.

Now this is a fair assessment. Cait should be getting a resolve damage getup whenever the boss covers the next leg of her content, and there'll be something to fill in on that spell/resolve damage gap somewhat soon. There are other options, but these are mainly predicated on companion sets and tactics being implemented, which they aren't.

Remember that everyone can tease, though. Manual control.

 

[Hanzo]

Looking back at my stats, both my toughness and physical resist for that save file were 5.

Armor is the damage mitigation stat for physical attacks. Physical resist is an evasion stat. If the move connects, you will still get 1-hit killed if your armor is low.

I don't remember ever being offered an opportunity to increase toughness in that playthrough.

Neither your race, class or job might allow you to spend points in toughness.

 

[quazi_neutrino]

Armor is the damage mitigation stat for physical attacks. Physical resist is an evasion stat. If the move connects, you will still get 1-hit killed if your armor is low.
Neither your race, class or job might allow you to spend points in toughness.

In that case I had 23 Armor and 190 HP. It might've been a combination of the fact that Drider Queen is able to attack twice per turn, but just the fact that she one-shotted my PC twice made me avoid her altogether.
As for the issue with races/classes/jobs, I personally would have made levelling up increase all stats further and have the favoured stats increase a bit less, or maybe allow the player to increase non-favoured stats with a limit of 1 rather than 2, really just to make the stats a bit less polarizing; then again I'm not making this game so take that with a grain of salt

EDIT: I just want to add one more thing that bugged me; The "Character" menu in the Journal isn't exactly that nice to look at, way too many different fonts and font sizes. Those fonts do work by themselves and look nice, but it gets annoying to read once you have basically 3 different fonts on a single line, and the small caps in the first line look somewhat misaligned with respect to the colon and the name after

 

[Barakiel]

Oh shit that's why I'm losing to those slimes... meeeeeeeeee this make me an idiot? I think so...

 

[1234567890van]

the drider encounter enemy seems to be able to use this poison move that does enough damage to 1-hit kill even max level units, but only sometimes uses it? I ended up just fleeing battles against her because I didn't want to take the risk of the PC just being killed turn 1 by a random encounter

While The Observer pretty much summed up why people will always complain about this, his analysis is the exact reason why I love this combat system so much. I said before that the combat encouraged experimentation with builds and this is what I meant. You can go into a fight and get your ass kicked the first time, but once you use sense and learn their weaknesses, change around your stats and abilities a bit, and use a couple buffs, you can turn around and turn the enemy into dust like it's nothing. Very few RPGs force the player to think for themselves and by the end of the game the player starts to dread the combat, not because it's hard but because it's boring/repetitive; I feel that likely won't be a problem here. They added an easy mode for people who just want the porn for a good reason.

 

[runingman69]

My main points for loving the game go in this order: 1. The connected world, the world of coc2 feels connected! Unlike in tits the characters all interact with each other to a good degree! (Not that some writers don't try for tits but the difference is noticeable.) 2.The alchemy system and a limit to certain body parts. To explain the alchemy system is really amazing! You can get your perfect snowflake and avoid the rng! Now the limited body parts, by that I mean no taur body's or useless appendages. 3. This is more of a development statement for writing, the parser's are much more welcoming for newbie writers and up to date. The tits parser's are rage inducing at times! (The parser sheet needs updates and I've seen people have to dig through github to find the proper type at times for tits.)
Overall coc2 is at the top of my smut game list. Keep up the great work!

 

[quazi_neutrino]

The characters in this game feel so much more realistic in terms of their personalities, and the interactions they have with each other certainly add to that. The alchemy feature is a useful addition, being able to avoid the unwanted transformations, and a nice touch for that would be to have ingredients randomly be found as an additional reward when exploring.

While The Observer pretty much summed up why people will always complain about this, his analysis is the exact reason why I love this combat system so much. I said before that the combat encouraged experimentation with builds and this is what I meant. You can go into a fight and get your ass kicked the first time, but once you use sense and learn their weaknesses, change around your stats and abilities a bit, and use a couple buffs, you can turn around and turn the enemy into dust like it's nothing. Very few RPGs force the player to think for themselves and by the end of the game the player starts to dread the combat, not because it's hard but because it's boring/repetitive; I feel that likely won't be a problem here. They added an easy mode for people who just want the porn for a good reason.

Back on the topic of the drider enemy, at that point I couldn't really figure out any way to be able to avoid the random instant loss. My character was built as a glass cannon in terms of base stats without me knowing how much impact the character selection had, meaning that even being able to respec the level up points would have been useless, and I wasn't aware of any strong armor items capable of withstanding the drider's attack. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me this one fight stood out amongst all the other ones in this game, including the "bosses". I know that it's possible to change class, but again, I don't think that's what I should be doing just to be able to consistently beat a random encounter.

 

[runingman69]

Back on the topic of the drider enemy, at that point I couldn't really figure out any way to be able to avoid the random instant loss.

The drider is weak to blight clicking the sense button to see the hostiles weakness is very helpful.

 

[quazi_neutrino]

The drider is weak to blight clicking the sense button to see the hostiles weakness is very helpful.

I don't want to push the complaining any further, but that doesn't really help that much unless I can use that to be able to defeat the drider in one turn. It might've been my fault for not having enough defensive stats, but it just doesn't feel right for a wild encounter enemy to be doing this rather than a one-time boss

 

[1234567890van]

Maybe I'm missing something, but to me this one fight stood out amongst all the other ones in this game, including the "bosses". I know that it's possible to change class, but again, I don't think that's what I should be doing just to be able to consistently beat a random encounter.

Make no mistake that the drider, currently, is the most difficult enemy in the game. I'm not ashamed to admit that it beat my ass black and blue the first 3 or 4 times while I tried to find builds that worked. You don't need to completely change your play-style but try different skills, armors, consumables, companions, etc until you figure it out. Experimentation is key in this game. Personally, I found the most success against the drider with a warrior (berserker?). Use the ability that adds shield to your character then alternate your most hard hitting two-handed abilities. Add Brint/Brienne for more hard hitting and Cait or Berwyn for support and I beat her with little problem. It can be risky since the abilities can miss and luck can screw with you, but I win consistently even with 1 or 2 misses. This is by far the only way to win, as I've also won using a tank-ish mage build and a dancer buff/debuff build. I'm sure there are better ways which I haven't thought about.

 

[The Observer]

Remember that regardless of your class, you can always wear any kind of armour.

Just because you're a wizard doesn't mean you can't wear a breastplate, for example.

For more fun, the next dungeon will be a boss rush with 5 Darkest Dungeon-esque bosses. When we combine this with level 5 and a combat overhaul, including how armour, ward and focus are applied as well as bonus critical damage from cunning, the meta is going to get shaken up.

 

[quazi_neutrino]

Remember that regardless of your class, you can always wear any kind of armour.

Just because you're a wizard doesn't mean you can't wear a breastplate, for example.

For more fun, the next dungeon will be a boss rush with 5 Darkest Dungeon-esque bosses. When we combine this with level 5 and a combat overhaul, including how armour, ward and focus are applied as well as bonus critical damage from cunning, the meta is going to get shaken up.

Sounds nice, looking forward to it!

Anyways my entire point of bringing up the drider is basically that it doesn't feel like a regular enemy but appears as commonly as one, and is easy to simply flee on sight. If it's meant to be an optional fast but difficult way to grind xp, then I can understand the reasoning behind her inclusion.

 

[The Observer]

Anyways my entire point of bringing up the drider is basically that it doesn't feel like a regular enemy but appears as commonly as one, and is easy to simply flee on sight. If it's meant to be an optional fast but difficult way to grind xp, then I can understand the reasoning behind her inclusion.

Like I said, she's a wandering miniboss, like the wandering elites or bosses you sometimes find in MMOs just traversing the countryside in zones way out of their level range and eating all the players questing or farming mobs.

 

[1234567890van]

Anyways my entire point of bringing up the drider is basically that it doesn't feel like a regular enemy but appears as commonly as one, and is easy to simply flee on sight. If it's meant to be an optional fast but difficult way to grind xp, then I can understand the reasoning behind her inclusion.

My guess is that there is as of yet unreleased content for her. The devs have repeatedly called her a miniboss, and her dialogue suggests she could be pacified in the future. Another thing to consider is that while she may not be easy to beat right now, once new levels, equipment, and skills are released; it'll be trivial in the future to outclass her in pure power rather than throwing your head against a brick wall in the current build.

 

[Hanzo]

I never fought the Drider Queen so I loaded and old file and give it a try. This is what happened the first turn:

That was with base 42 armor, 37 warding, 40 focus, 44 evasion and 190HP, plus the +10 focus party buff from Cait. Saved by the RNGoddess who handled the first turn to one of my two characters with Spirit Veil.

I barely managed to win. It's true that the character I was playing with isn't too powerful, because it's a black mage and black mages suck in this game for a myriad of reasons, but it's a good example of how bad things can get the first turn even if you're prepared. She healing from debuffs twice as fast because she gets to act two times per turn (probably a bug) didn't help, as it rendered the Ray of Frost strategy I was trying useless.

 

[Upcast Drake]

Enemies having multiple turns per round isn't a bug. It's part of their power budget. There are two enemies in the game that even have 3 turns per round.

 

[Hanzo]

Enemies having multiple turns per round isn't a bug. It's part of their power budget. There are two enemies in the game that even have 3 turns per round.

The bug isn't that she gets to act twice, that's fine.

I cast Ray of Frost on her, inflicting Frigid for 3 turns.

She gets to act the first time in that turn. Frigid debuff duration goes down by one (2 turns remaining).

She gets to act the second time in that turn. Frigid debuff duration goes down again (so 1 turn remaining), despite being the same turn.

By the time my character gets to act again the next turn after casting Ray of Frost, Frigid is gone.

 

[Savin]

Still not a bug. Turns and rounds are different things. Solo enemies/bosses get to recover from status effects faster.

 

[1234567890van]

because it's a black mage and black mages suck in this game for a myriad of reasons

This just isn't true. I just fought her using a black mage and the only changes I made to my character was equipping full heavy armor and drinking spiced wine. Personally I think Etheryn is a poor choice combat-wise, but I haven't used her against the drider enough to make that assertion. If you are still struggling after that, I'm not sure what else to say. Maybe it's time for a respec. I play with AI on which isn't optimal (but makes the game much less tedious imo).

 

[BubbleLord]

My guess is that there is as of yet unreleased content for her. The devs have repeatedly called her a miniboss, and her dialogue suggests she could be pacified in the future. Another thing to consider is that while she may not be easy to beat right now, once new levels, equipment, and skills are released; it'll be trivial in the future to outclass her in pure power rather than throwing your head against a brick wall in the current build.

This is because the Drider is intended to eventually get more content. However, as she's a commission-spawned product, I am limited on when I can add onto her. There's more coming as to the Drider content but it's pretty much going to only be when I'm comm'd for more or I clear a LOT more of my backlog.

As for how to beat her; you need to prioritize a more tanky or dodge-approach. Cait is pretty much necessary for the Drider fight as of current meta, as her heals can keep your team up. From there, I would recommend either Berwyn or Brint/Brienne; Berwyn is squishy but his damage output/potential makes him EXTREMELY useful for bursting the Drider Queen. Brint is only better because of Etheryn (IMO) because his survival and taunt can draw a LOT of damage off you if you're wanting to still try glass-cannon builds against her. The entire premise for the Drider is someone who can shake most builds (primarily the Black Mage build that I've run non-stop since the release of CoC2 that is largely regarded as the strongest build in this current version of the game's combat). As a result, she will trash you if you're unable to handle some measure of survival.

 

[NotYouNorI]

I never fought the Drider Queen so I loaded and old file and give it a try. This is what happened the first turn: View attachment 10954

That was with base 42 armor, 37 warding, 40 focus, 44 evasion and 190HP, plus the +10 focus party buff from Cait. Saved by the RNGoddess who handled the first turn to one of my two characters with Spirit Veil.

I barely managed to win. It's true that the character I was playing with isn't too powerful, because it's a black mage and black mages suck in this game for a myriad of reasons, but it's a good example of how bad things can get the first turn even if you're prepared. She healing from debuffs twice as fast because she gets to act two times per turn (probably a bug) didn't help, as it rendered the Ray of Frost strategy I was trying useless.

Nothing weak about Black Mages they can be pretty powerful.
But the thing is, you don't have a tank in your group.

 

[Hanzo]

This just isn't true. I just fought her using a black mage and the only changes I made to my character was equipping full heavy armor and drinking spiced wine. Personally I think Etheryn is a poor choice combat-wise, but I haven't used her against the drider enough to make that assertion. If you are still struggling after that, I'm not sure what else to say. Maybe it's time for a respec. I play with AI on which isn't optimal (but makes the game much less tedious imo).

I fought against her several times on the way back and didn't have much trouble iin all of them. It was just the first time, when she started the fight that specific way, when things got serious.

Heavy armor gives a lot of armor, so it helps in that specific battle. However, heavy armor doesn't provide more protection than light armor overall. I can put on a breastplate, take a -5 penalty to initiative and instead of 40/40/40 in damage mitigation have 60/20/40. That makes the fight against the Drider easier, but also makes it easier for the next wizard I fight to defeat me. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the player to know beforehand that in a specific area he/she should wear gear with way more physical protection than magical because physical hitters in that area are significantly more dangerous. Or adjust its gear on the go to the next unknown random encounter. I just try to keep them as high as possible and in the same ballpark.

Etheryn isn't too good. Yes, Berwyn and Brint can do more in a fight than her, but they aren't the answer. With -20 piercing resistance and low armor, Berwyn can die in one hit from the Drider Queen. If that happens the first turn, it's over. With -75% resistance to pheromones and blight, Brint isn't a reliable tank because he just faints when he gets hit by one of these (likely to happen if the enemy has one, because he generates a lot of threat). I don't want to be there when it happens, so he's never in my party. Keep in mind I'm trying to win always, even in the worst possible scenario. So Berwyn and Brint can do way more than Etheryn... in fights against the Drider Queen I was going to win anyway.

Atugia is very slow, so she won't be able to stop the Drider Queen from repeating that start. I think Brienne has the same stats as Brint?

 

[1234567890van]

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the player to know beforehand that in a specific area he/she should wear gear with way more physical protection than magical because physical hitters in that area are significantly more dangerous.

If you play to always win every fight then it's the same as any RPG where you will need a degree of save-scumming or an open guide. When you fight enemies in Persona or Final Fantasy you won't know immediately the the most effective way to win until you do it once; you mainly throw shit against a wall and hope something sticks. It's much of the same here.

Or adjust its gear on the go to the next unknown random encounter.

In the latter case you need to understand you are playing a work in progress. The drider is a wandering mini-boss who has an expac coming eventually. In the future there will likely be an option where you beat her and never have to fight her again. The other enemies in the area are much easier and more attuned to a level 4 player as regular mobs should be. Adjusting gear between encounters generally won't (shouldn't) be a problem until you get to boss fights.

 

[NotYouNorI]

Brint is a berzerker; not a tank.

 

[The Observer]

One of the core design choices in the game is that you are intended to always have some kind of weakness. We would like players to make intelligent build choices in stat distribution, powers, equipment and companions. Of course wearing physical-oriented armour is going to leave you open to magical or resolve attacks. Of course building for evasion tanking is going to leave you open to powers that target resistances, powers that still do something on a miss, or powers that grant bonus accuracy or flat-out don't miss at all.

Of course Catte has a weakness, Brint has a weakness, Berry has a weakness, Tugs has a weakness and even Ryn, the generalist, still has a weakness not just in that she's not particularly good at anything, but also that she has a glaring fire vulnerability, one of the most common damage types in the game. For the longest time, Berry was the strongest companion because he simply did everything by himself. We then gave him the penetrating and crushing vulnerability, and are likely to be replacing group heal with another DPS option down the line. Every single companion is designed to have at least one enormous flaw that paints a target on their back; it's up to you to choose your loadout so that everyone covers each others' vulnerabilities.

If you're trying to win all the time... oh boy oh boy.