The Morality of The Seven (Heavy Lore spoilers)

[Karamaru]

Spoiler: I fucking love over analyzing media

I don't think the seven can be judged as a group. Their personalities are too different and they clearly have different goals, at least relative to their domain. Of what we know, Mallach is a very practical person. When talked with he is very matter of fact and blunt with serious matters. He says he won't risk opening portals due to the danger to the world that would cause. We don't know why he thinks like this. Maybe he feels he has a duty to protect the world or maybe he has more selfish reasons. It's hard to judge him when he has valid reasons not to help and we don't know all of his reasons. Keros is a hard to understand ass. No seriously, he is all over the place and it's really hard to get a read on him. My thoughts: he either sucks at his job or he has some social-Darwinist views. Or maybe he doesn't know as much as he acts like. Nareva comes across as a lonely woman who deeply regrets her past actions. To me, she seems the most "human" of the seven. To be fair, the conversation battle gives more to go on with her than the others. But what we have is a remorseful and emotional woman who wants a connection with others outside of the seven. She does have the same "no hand holding" views as the others. But outside of that, she keeps the souls of her last two victims alive and possibly healing them, enjoys company, constantly reacts very emotionally, and even confirms the true identity of the seven. Good thing I like big tiddy goth eldritch horrors. Lumia is, at the moment, the only one I'd call evil or at least dangerously selfish. The whole Aetheldred shit show happens after the godswar. Either Lumia wants nonbelievers to suffer and she endorsed what happened, or she doesn't care. There being Valkyrie ghosts in that quest implies the former. It seems to me that Lumia cares more about amassing followers, damn the consequences and those who may suffer. Sorra can get fucked. Not because of anything she did, but because she's the patron saint of harpies. I'm sick of getting attacked by harpies. Guilt by association. Velun made deer babes so he's okay. If he contributed the dryad trio to the world, then he's a damn hero in my book. Praise Orlaith.

Judging the seven for their actions as wraiths is understandable but not fair. They literally felt nothing but hunger and couldn't empathize. I think of them like the Typhon from Prey. Intelligent, hungry animals that lack the ability to empathize with what they view as food. Holding them responsible is bit of a grey area.

As for why they're interested in Kas's soul experiments, I don't know. I don't have backer builds and don't know her endgame. They could just want to understand the soul or maybe want an artificial one. Maybe they just have a thing for mad scientists who use nipple rings as heavy armor.

I'm not giving them my soul. As much as I like and trust Nareva, I don't trust the other six and want to keep my soul. FFS I have Edelgard as my avatar. I ain't letting no gods, no matter how sexy, control me. If I don't simp for the sexy dragon punch pope who's only honesty is in them hips, then I ain't simping for big titty Cthulhu. Smol imperial axe gf all the way my brothers and sisters and non-binary comrades.

If souls look like crystals, can be they be used as suckers and hard candy? Asking for a friend.

That's probably the wisest move to make regarding the seven they are very nebulous about your soul and won't give you a straight answer and the temple of sin confirms Imma keeping it.

I'm pretty sure Savin was joking when he said something about the Seven stifling the World's development. I mean, technically, they already did that with the whole apocalyptic soul eaters thing, buuuuuuut

I haven't seen the Temple of Sin event since I didn't build the Temple on my main playthrough. Can't have Cait swearing her soul to a Wraith. It's hard missing out on all those catgirls for the RP, but

Plus there's only one catgirl I really need in my life

Also I guess I can see it on my anything goes playthrough

Oh I know but I can also see that it would be in their best intrest to keep the world as primitive as possible but Mallach pretty much confirms he could sent an army to stop Kas but he won't for some reason.

 

[Savin]

But we have to take into account their emotional and mental state at the time of the crime.

Yeah it's clearly manslaughter not murder.

I haven't seen the Temple of Sin event since I didn't build the Temple

Don't worry it doesn't have anything to do with Cait. Other than Cait getting duped into sucking someone's dick lol.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Yeah it's clearly manslaughter not murder.

Understandable. Haven't we all committed a little manslaughter?

Other than Cait getting duped into sucking someone's dick lol.

Since when did Cait need to be duped into that?

and the temple of sin confirms Imma keeping it.

Why has the temple of sin soured your view even more? Is it the whole "our champions souls live in our dream world forever or go to oblivion" thing?

As for the seven keeping the world stagnant with tech, I think they're already doing it. Not that they're actively suppressing development with some secret police, but by keeping information from during and maybe before the gods war secret. It could be argued this is their no hand holding policy, but it's in their interest to at least delay advancement. If proper methods or tech develop, they could be found out or at least lose a lot of influence. Although if they are, it would directly contradict Nareva's portfolio as the god of hording knowledge in her big well.

 

[Metronome]

My worry, is that they only care about Kasyrra's METHODS of experimentation, stating that it was too extreme, but not about the subject. I'm taking this as they genuinely wish for a deeper understanding of mortal souls.

Hell, I'm even betting that Keros has been carefully scrutinizing Our Own soul, away from the prying eyes of everyone. [/Ispoiler]

Perhaps I'm playing the devils advocate here in defending Kas' experiments and the inaction of the Seven but one has to see it from a different angle. The Seven don't necessarily need to like what Kas has done, hell they might even hate it, but the thing is it is already done, there is no going back. They can either waste the lives and research, or use it for potentially good means. Probably none of the seven will say "Yes Kas you can go kill and experiment on hundreds of people and their souls'. However the act is already done, now they are willing to wait for the results of the research, so to speak. Even if it means that Kas and the cultists potentially corrupt all of the marches, the understanding gained will outweigh the suffering inflicted.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

If and when it comes to it I'll kick them in the teeth because I don't care how strong or well armed anyone is or what they are I'll do what's necessary that's my thoughts on the experimentation and the inaction of the seven. Don't @ me

 

[WolframL]

Speaking of the Temple, I've refrained from building it in a couple runs because while a lot of the things associated with it sound nice and it makes sense to have someone there if/when Calla emerges through the portal, I kinda want to see what might happen in the end if she isn't tied down to the Marches and is potentially free to go back to Jassira after the adventure is over.

So many variables, so little time... xD

Don't worry it doesn't have anything to do with Cait. Other than Cait getting duped into sucking someone's dick lol.

Like you really have to twist Cait's arm to get her to suck a dick. Okay, maybe that particular dick's an exception but generally speaking...

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Everyone's discussing not building the temple because of the seven and it's potential long term consequences, and here I am not building it because I can't sex up Amina and get a anubian tf yet so I'm being petty. I know what I want. And what I want is more jackal girls.

 

[Karamaru]

Why has the temple of sin soured your view even more? Is it the whole "our champions souls live in our dream world forever or go to oblivion" thing?

As for the seven keeping the world stagnant with tech, I think they're already doing it. Not that they're actively suppressing development with some secret police, but by keeping information from during and maybe before the gods war secret. It could be argued this is their no hand holding policy, but it's in their interest to at least delay advancement. If proper methods or tech develop, they could be found out or at least lose a lot of influence. Although if they are not will, it would directly contradict Nareva's portfolio as the god of hording knowledge in her big well.

It's more that I dislike Mallach, Navera's seems alright she just doing her job and not actively messing with the Champ while Mallach straight up says he can go deus vult on Kas but doesn't as for the soul thing depends so far there doesn't seem to be a concept of heaven or hell or after life in the world of CoC 2 so a person can be the biggest douche in the universe and not face any karmic justice in the afterlife.
As for the other Seven I'll reserve total judgement till I met them all and find out what I can do with this cosmically powered soul of mine for all I know Kas might have the better deal.
And as for the tech/development thing if they are not messing with the mortals then I'll take every nasty thought I ever had about the seven back.

Don't worry it doesn't have anything to do with Cait. Other than Cait getting duped into sucking someone's dick lol.

To be fair, its a very nice dick.

 

[drossbots]

Speaking of the Temple, I've refrained from building it in a couple runs because while a lot of the things associated with it sound nice and it makes sense to have someone there if/when Calla emerges through the portal, I kinda want to see what might happen in the end if she isn't tied down to the Marches and is potentially free to go back to Jassira after the adventure is over.

So many variables, so little time... xD

Like you really have to twist Cait's arm to get her to suck a dick. Okay, maybe that particular dick's an exception but generally speaking...

I'm so glad I'm not the only one.

If and when it comes to it I'll kick them in the teeth because I don't care how strong or well armed anyone is or what they are I'll do what's necessary that's my thoughts on the experimentation and the inaction of the seven. Don't @ me

I feel like trying to kick gods in the face wouldn't end well, but I can see your point if Metronome's hypothesis checks out.

God: "I have changed champion. No longer am I the dark, empty beast I once was. I know love. I know joy! And I know guilt. That is why I toil endlessly for the good of this world, to make amends for the wrongs I've committed.

Also God: "yeah bro, all that chaos and corrupting and soul stealing sucks, but its fine as long as I learn some cool soul stuff from it. Gosh I love souls. Can I have your soul btw? It looks delicious uhhhhhh, I mean, it's not like you're using it or anything.

Champion: "... sus"

 

[Karamaru]

If and when it comes to it I'll kick them in the teeth because I don't care how strong or well armed anyone is or what they are I'll do what's necessary that's my thoughts on the experimentation and the inaction of the seven. Don't @ me

I can respect that going out in a blaze of glory.

I feel like trying to kick gods in the face wouldn't end well, but I can see your point if Metronome's hypothesis checks out.

God: "I have changed champion. No longer am I the dark, empty beast I once was. I know love. I know joy! And I know guilt. That is why I toil endlessly for the good of this world, to make amends for the wrongs I've committed.

Also God: "yeah bro, all that chaos and corrupting and soul stealing sucks, but its fine as long as I learn some cool soul stuff from it. Gosh I love souls. Can I have your soul btw? It looks delicious uhhhhhh, I mean, it's not like you're using it or anything.

Champion: "... sus"

I saw Keros vent he's sus

 

[Lone Wolf115]

I can respect that going out in a blaze of glory.

It's not a blaze of glory if you're as persistent as me and determined because if killed bitches with the same attitude in a lot of other games (if you got the juggernaut suit in MW I'll make you target number one any destructible Killstreak.) Just making my quote a point about me.

Edit: Every time I play a video game on console is not just for me but for my brother since he died there are games that I want to play in spirit of him now I don't believe in hell or heaven because if they were real they would have made themselves known but until then fuck'em both (got a little angry writing this because my brother died while so fuckwit was playing with a gun or some shit because it was a fucking "accident") again sorry that this turned into a rant now but every time I play I feel like he's next to me and he was my older and only brother.

 

[Undecided]

Eh, I'd only really build the temple for the lore aspect (the lore interaction in question being gated behind its construction; as well as part of the reason this thread seemingly exists).

Outside of that I don't particularly feel like there's much incentive to build it at the moment (at least for me personally; also the text makes it seem like 5K EC is a lot lol) - the PC still has to pay for "services", and seemingly doesn't get a "cut" of the profits at the moment (or at least from what I've found).
Not to mention the aspect of kinda intruding on the people of Hawkethorne - even if they say they're fine with it; it's a completely different deities worship (at least from what is observed in Hawkethorne; and specifically the type of worship being conducted - think of the children).

Oh, and also the moral prospects of having kids that are in turn going to grow up in the temple to eventually be the exact same as their temple based parent - I dunno about anyone else, but leaving kids to a destiny like that with no say in the matter (because "religion") is not the greatest, and quite uncomfortable (maybe that's partly why outside of the lore I don't feel much incentive to build it - knowledge of the potential environment).
Seems like a stark contrast to the the environment and prospects of any of the PCs kids growing up in the Nursery, to say the least.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

It's not a blaze of glory if you're as persistent as me and determined because if killed bitches with the same attitude in a lot of other games (if you got the juggernaut suit in MW I'll make you target number one any destructible Killstreak.) Just making my quote a point about me.

Let me know how that works out when Savin has already confirmed that they're so powerful they could accidentally cause immense collateral damage and scar the landscape. Sorra can summon thunder apparently. Anyone who's played InFamous 1 and 2 knows how devastating that is.

I saw Keros vent he's sus

Keros was in electric while the lights were out and he stood in the corner like a creep instead of fixing them.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

Let me know how that works out when Savin has already confirmed that they're so powerful they could accidentally cause immense collateral damage and scar the landscape. Sorra can summon thunder apparently. Anyone who's played InFamous 1 and 2 knows how devastating that is.



Keros was in electric while the lights were out and he stood in the corner like a creep instead of fixing them.

I edited my post so think again because I got more strength and better determination. Love the among us references fucking funny.

Plus @Wint3rRyd3r I'm your banner the "get me closer so I can hit em with my axe" times 100 I'm more like I'm gonna chop you in fucking half four times to make sure you're dead.
Just saying.

 

[Savin]

and seemingly doesn't get a "cut" of the profits at the moment

You do. Or should anyway. I think it gets dumped off every 10 days or so in a chest. If it isn't that's either a bug or an oversight.

 

[Kingu2]

think of the children).

Oh, and also the moral prospects of having kids that are in turn going to grow up in the temple to eventually be the exact same as their temple based parent - I dunno about anyone else, but leaving kids to a destiny like that with no say in the matter (because "religion") is not the greatest, and quite uncomfortable (maybe that's partly why outside of the lore I don't feel much incentive to build it - knowledge of the potential environment).
Seems like a stark contrast to the the environment and prospects of any of the PCs kids growing up in the Nursery, to say the least.

I am thinking of the children. I'm thinking of how many of them I can get to pop out of a temple whore.

speaking of which why am I paying for a child that I can't interact with any way? like I would have defended the child rearing saying you could always visit and spend time with them like Barney did but you literally can't. I'm just paying 15K to unprotected sex. I could do that literally anywhere else for free so what's the point?

 

[Lone Wolf115]

I am thinking of the children. I'm thinking of how many of them I can get to pop out of a temple whore.

speaking of which why am I paying for a child that I can't interact with any way? like I would have defended the child rearing saying you could always visit and spend time with them like Barney did but you literally can't. I'm just paying 15K to unprotected sex. I could do that literally anywhere else for free so what's the point?

Correction HOLY HIER.

 

[Karamaru]

You do. Or should anyway. I think it gets dumped off every 10 days or so in a chest. If it isn't that's either a bug or an oversight.

You know I completely forgot about that I get some profits I just thought I got a founders discount or something

 

[Lone Wolf115]

You know I completely forgot about that I get some profits I just thought I got a founders discount or something

Practically both you get both.

 

[Undecided]

You do. Or should anyway. I think it gets dumped off every 10 days or so in a chest. If it isn't that's either a bug or an oversight.

Testing showed that whilst that might be the intention, it is not currently functioning as such (as of Public Build 0.4.1).

EDIT:

It doesn't ATM. I'm waiting for more potential systems to come online and a better place for the salary chest to appear before actually committing to this. Maybe the wayfort.

Well that would explain it then.

 

[The Observer]

You do. Or should anyway. I think it gets dumped off every 10 days or so in a chest. If it isn't that's either a bug or an oversight.

It doesn't ATM. I'm waiting for more potential systems to come online and a better place for the salary chest to appear before actually committing to this. Maybe the wayfort.

Re: technological progress

I think recent history's conclusively proved that the peoples of Savarra have shown that they can't be responsible with the power they'd been given -- the entire history of the dual society of wizards that grew in old Belhar was a textbook example of "and then Man grew proud". There's a reason the Prime Directive was conceptualised, whether you agree with it or not -- a society needs to have the intelligence, wisdom and other foundations in order to properly handle the implications of technology.

A very simple example would be the well-building craze in Africa some decades back. Do-gooders from first-world countries would fly over to some imporvished nation, dig a well with modern technology, take a few pictures to virtue-signal to everyone back home, then feel all righteous and accomplished before returning. In a matter of weeks, the wells they left behind would be rendered worthless -- the shaft used as a latrine and filled with dead animals and rubbish, the pump stolen and sold off for palm toddy money, and everyone was back to walking to the same muddy waterhole. Imported trucks and vehicles get poorly maintained, filled with sand, parts stolen and pawned off, things break because people can't be bothered to do maintenance.

Giving ray guns to gorillas isn't going to work, and cargo cult science doesn't either, given the current reproducability crisis in the modern establishment were even "hard" sciences like physics and chemistry have a failure to reproduce 50% of the time, let alone other fields. That's right, a coin toss is more reliable these days.

Which is why I consider Kas' boast of bringing technology to the world as some kind of savior pretty empty. Not just because she doesn't have the inclination or patience to teach effectively, but also because the fundamental perquisites, attitudes, philosophies, infrastructure, etc, etc, simply aren't there. Our understanding is one foundation built upon another -- you don't get a coffee maker ex nihilio because there are simply so many underlying technologies, assumptions and attitudes that make such things possible. It's why I found Anne McCaffrey's dragonriders being trained by an AI from medieval levels to futuristic understandings of physics, chemistry, biology in four year laughable. It's why, when these attitudes fail and societal trust reaches a nadir, suddenly indoor plumbing becomes too hard to maintain and the streets are full of shit.

But if the gods were -- and I'm not saying that they are -- actively suppressing these things from happening, they would be completely justified in doing so. The people had their big chance to prove themselves and fucked it up, demonstrating that they weren't capable of handling themselves and their discoveries any more than a neanderthal finding a charge blaster in a vault would be. Maybe they'll fix themselves after five or ten more generations.

 

[Greyfox643]

@The Observer

I didnt think too much on Kas' line about being a savior by introducing technology (I always also found it hilarious that in CoC1 only demons had advanced tech. I thought it implied technology was inherently a vector of corruption) but I have some thoughts on the 'Prime Directive' bit.

So, another bad example was the Salarians in MassEffect, who gave a warrior race advanced weapons and star travel, and went SurprisedPikachu.png when they basically went to war with anyone for supplies.

Not that I think Kas is truly into do it, but if she WAS into bringing in technology to advance the various societies in Savarra, it would have to be from the literal foundation up to not cause a societal disruption in Cultural development. And in addition, I think it would require stepping back at strategic points to allow the various groups of people to take the reins for a bit, only offering advice from within, instead of being some godfigure.

Consider if instead of immediately modernizing cities, you start with basic resource and food production (farming and mining). You make them easier, safer, more efficient, and this causes an immediate boon of plentiful resources to start with. From there, you step back and see everyone next priority. Do they focus on building with expanded materials? Do they focus on expanding food storage and preservation? Do they focus on defense, to secure what they have obtained?

Whichever they pick, you then sit with them and brainstorm on their level about solutions to their perceived problems. You dont become this godlike being they rely on for all problem solving, but more of a Font of knowledge that shares and encourages forward thinking.

This process repeats cyclically onwards:
Uplift, adjustment, mediate, advice, creation, adjustment, new normal, repeat.

Time wise, it requires a significantly longer period to ensure stability, as only so many of these "ground breaking" changes should occur within a generation.

But I feel it would lend to the most stable long-term development of a fast-tracked world.

Hell, do it well enough, and some of the Gods would likely offer you a job, so they can learn and grow, and ensure their people do as well.

But, I think Kas is far too corrupted and impatient to consider such a path

 

[Solitary Traveler]

you don't get a coffee maker ex nihilio because there are simply so many underlying technologies, assumptions and attitudes that make such things possible.

"Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken."

 

[Mad Dog]

@The Observer

I didnt think too much on Kas' line about being a savior by introducing technology (I always also found it hilarious that in CoC1 only demons had advanced tech. I thought it implied technology was inherently a vector of corruption) but I have some thoughts on the 'Prime Directive' bit.

So, another bad example was the Salarians in MassEffect, who gave a warrior race advanced weapons and star travel, and went SurprisedPikachu.png when they basically went to war with anyone for supplies.

Not that I think Kas is truly into do it, but if she WAS into bringing in technology to advance the various societies in Savarra, it would have to be from the literal foundation up to not cause a societal disruption in Cultural development. And in addition, I think it would require stepping back at strategic points to allow the various groups of people to take the reins for a bit, only offering advice from within, instead of being some godfigure.

Consider if instead of immediately modernizing cities, you start with basic resource and food production (farming and mining). You make them easier, safer, more efficient, and this causes an immediate boon of plentiful resources to start with. From there, you step back and see everyone next priority. Do they focus on building with expanded materials? Do they focus on expanding food storage and preservation? Do they focus on defense, to secure what they have obtained?

Whichever they pick, you then sit with them and brainstorm on their level about solutions to their perceived problems. You dont become this godlike being they rely on for all problem solving, but more of a Font of knowledge that shares and encourages forward thinking.

This process repeats cyclically onwards:
Uplift, adjustment, mediate, advice, creation, adjustment, new normal, repeat.

Time wise, it requires a significantly longer period to ensure stability, as only so many of these "ground breaking" changes should occur within a generation.

But I feel it would lend to the most stable long-term development of a fast-tracked world.

Hell, do it well enough, and some of the Gods would likely offer you a job, so they can learn and grow, and ensure their people do as well.

But, I think Kas is far too corrupted and impatient to consider such a path

Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

@The Observer

I didnt think too much on Kas' line about being a savior by introducing technology (I always also found it hilarious that in CoC1 only demons had advanced tech. I thought it implied technology was inherently a vector of corruption) but I have some thoughts on the 'Prime Directive' bit.

So, another bad example was the Salarians in MassEffect, who gave a warrior race advanced weapons and star travel, and went SurprisedPikachu.png when they basically went to war with anyone for supplies.

Not that I think Kas is truly into do it, but if she WAS into bringing in technology to advance the various societies in Savarra, it would have to be from the literal foundation up to not cause a societal disruption in Cultural development. And in addition, I think it would require stepping back at strategic points to allow the various groups of people to take the reins for a bit, only offering advice from within, instead of being some godfigure.

Consider if instead of immediately modernizing cities, you start with basic resource and food production (farming and mining). You make them easier, safer, more efficient, and this causes an immediate boon of plentiful resources to start with. From there, you step back and see everyone next priority. Do they focus on building with expanded materials? Do they focus on expanding food storage and preservation? Do they focus on defense, to secure what they have obtained?

Whichever they pick, you then sit with them and brainstorm on their level about solutions to their perceived problems. You dont become this godlike being they rely on for all problem solving, but more of a Font of knowledge that shares and encourages forward thinking.

This process repeats cyclically onwards:
Uplift, adjustment, mediate, advice, creation, adjustment, new normal, repeat.

Time wise, it requires a significantly longer period to ensure stability, as only so many of these "ground breaking" changes should occur within a generation.

But I feel it would lend to the most stable long-term development of a fast-tracked world.

Hell, do it well enough, and some of the Gods would likely offer you a job, so they can learn and grow, and ensure their people do as well.

But, I think Kas is far too corrupted and impatient to consider such a path

Ain't nobody got time for that.

I'm pretty sure people got time meme or not.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

Ain't nobody got time for that.

Damn straight, that's quitter talk. We can go to a beach and make a car out of sand. We just need elbow grease, boot straps, and our hopes and dreams.

Though handing massive technological advancements before civilization is ready is admittedly a terrible idea. It'd be like that video of soldiers giving a monkey their rifle. With damn safety off apparently.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

Though handing massive technological advancements before civilization is ready is admittedly a terrible idea. It'd be like that video of soldiers giving a monkey their rifle. With damn safety off apparently.

Everywhere is stupidity you just gotta look hard enough.

 

[Karamaru]

Damn straight, that's quitter talk. We can go to a beach and make a car out of sand. We just need elbow grease, boot straps, and our hopes and dreams.

Though handing massive technological advancements before civilization is ready is admittedly a terrible idea. It'd be like that video of soldiers giving a monkey their rifle. With damn safety off apparently.

If Macguyver can make a tank out of a paper clip and some spit so can the champion.

 

[Lone Wolf115]

If Macguyver can make a tank out of a paper clip and some spit so can the champion.

Damn right! So can Captain Steele.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

I think it may be fair to say we can't comprehend the morality of the seven. Or at least that judging them from the perspective of a mere mortal isn't fair. They developed emotions based off eating mortals, but they were eldritch horrors fueled by hunger that exist between the worlds first and foremost. Those experiences would have shaped them in incomprehensible ways. And they didn't stop being wraiths (I'm pretty sure) just because they achieved divinity. They're still not exactly like the the people in the worlds. When judging them, we gotta not be distracted by the boobs and realize that the boobs are an illusion to hide the gnawing tentacles of unfathomable terror. Mmmmmmmmm, tentacles. Okay we also gotta avoid being distracted by tentacles.