Reworking from class/level to an ability tree system

[Couch]

I play a lot of tabletop games of varying stripes, and pretty much the biggest distinguishing factor between all of them is how they handle the idea of character progression.  As players, we like seeing our numbers go up.  It's nice to pick up a new shield and see your health gauge shoot up, it's nice to add points to your stats each level and watch your character start doing more damage.

CoC used a pretty simplistic progression system.  You have a level, each level you get some free stat points and a perk of your choice from a huge list.  Some are level-gated, some are stat-gated, but if you want to grind at level 1 for long enough to shoot up to 40 in one go, you can get all the perks on one character.  Your stats are always 1-100 values and you can max them out whenever you like.  This is a simplistic system, but it has advantages:

• There's no one-true-build, since all characters can get all perks.
• Balancing encounters is hypothetically simple, as all players have the same maximum potential.  Puzzle bosses can be built that emphasize using particular abilities.  In practice, the combat system and enemy AI doesn't really have enough depth to make particularly interesting puzzle bosses, with a few rare exceptions.  Urtaquest is closer than most other parts of the game.
• Characters can approach combat from many different angles: you can handle one fight with spells, the next with teasing and a third with physical attacks.
• You aren't locked into a bad decision unless you level up so much that you can't get XP.  You can build to use both magic and swordplay equally well, and for many people this is nice.

TiTS uses a class/level system very similar in structure to XCOM: Enemy Unknown, where each level you get some hit points, you get your stat cap raised by 5, you get one or two class-specific perks and you get to pick between one of two other perks or special attacks.  This has its own advantages:

• Level-gating encounters is much easier when players can't have 100 Strength and Toughness within thirty minutes of booting up the game.  Mhen'ga does this best so far.
• The progression paths offer different gameplay experiences via their special attacks that encourage use of different weapons, and come with hooks for your vision of Captain Steele as a character.

Both games additionally feature stat trainers and perk trainers.  Stat trainers can come in the form of characters or items and boost your stats, while perk trainers are usually characters who give you some form of special attack or other ability from interaction with them.  This is good, as it rewards characters for exploration and interaction with the full scope of the game's content, but also poses problems under the TiTS model.  The main example is Concussive Shot: given equal stats and tags, a bow is now always better than a non-bow because it also offers a useful special attack.  This leads into a weird cycle of nerfing and rebalancing that's been going on for several versions now, because the power of the perk combined with the power of the weapon is hard to judge.  It also runs the risk of watering down the classes, since for many versions the claim to fame of Tech Specialists was Overcharge, which Concussive Shot is very similar to.

Were a rewrite of the level system in the cards, what I would like to see is a move to a talent tree system similar to those seen in games such as Final Fantasy Tactics, Pokemon Tabletop United, Dungeons: the Dragoning, and the newest version of Adeptus Evangelion.  A very similar system is also used in Fall of Eden.  In such a system a class is essentially a package of talents which is progressed through independently of the core level.  Trees may be freely available but are often gated behind something such as learning the tree from a trainer, and progression within a tree is typically level-gated either directly or because you need certain things to progress that can't be gotten until you've gotten to a certain part of the game.  This is my preferred class/level system because it puts more emphasis on horizontal growth than vertical growth, that is to say it increases how many options you have for how to approach problems but doesn't do much to increase how powerful each of those options are.  This means that playing Pokemon and unlocking all the various abilities isn't necessary and doesn't significantly increase Steele's power compared to just taking a few, but exists as an option for someone who wants to be able to switch around between various tactics for the sake of variety.

Just for example, the three existing classes might be a choice of which of three major talent trees is available from the start of the game.  Through significant interaction with NPCs of the appropriate roles (Syri, Saendra and Anno come to mind as examples of a Mercenary, Smuggler and Tech Specialist), Steele might unlock the ability to progress in the other trees, at the expense of not progressing in his/her current tree while doing so.  Characters like Tanis would offer trees built around the use of bows, with other similar trees available for other weapon types keeping them all competitive without requiring juggling the balance of bows and bow perks.  Psionics, similarly, would be handled as just another type of tree that you can unlock and progress through, offering options parallel to the main class trees.

Obviously such a large change would come with plenty of implementation issues, but I think it's worth consideration or at least discussion.

 

[Milkman]

This sounds like a really good idea. Hopefully it ends up getting more attention.

 

[JimThermic]

Skimming through this, it sounds like you're describing the system from Dragon Age.

 

[Decanter]

I'd need to think about it more, but at first blush I dislike the idea. The current system gates no skill except by class, level, and "not having that one other skill". With a talent tree, everything is gated behind up to several layers of inescapable prerequisites, which you might not actually want but have to take to get there. Unless by "tree" you're thinking of something more like several trees whose branches grew into each other and fused, so that in general Steele only needs one of several possible prerequisite nodes on the tree.

Fall of Eden talent tree is OK because if you fuck up your build you can grind some more and go for something else. TiTS has level caps.

I don't understand why the answer to "bows OP" is "rebalance the whole game" rather than "balance bows".

 

[JimThermic]

I'd need to think about it more, but at first blush I dislike the idea. The current system gates no skill except by class, level, and "not having that one other skill". With a talent tree, everything is gated behind up to several layers of inescapable prerequisites, which you might not actually want but have to take to get there. Unless by "tree" you're thinking of something more like several trees whose branches grew into each other and fused, so that in general Steele only needs one of several possible prerequisite nodes on the tree.

Fall of Eden talent tree is OK because if you fuck up your build you can grind some more and go for something else. TiTS has level caps.

I don't understand why the answer to "bows OP" is "rebalance the whole game" rather than "balance bows".

Yeah, now that Decanter mentions it, it would tick me off if I had to sit and indulge certain waifus I don't like just to get an ability tree. At least in Dragon Age: Inquisition, three folks just show up and are pretty much 'Want Skillz?"

 

[JDeko]

Yeah, I know in Borderlands I ended up dumping points into skills I didn't want to just get ones further down the tree, I don't like getting gated into just Energy Weapons but this wouldn't help much.

 

[Couch]

I'd need to think about it more, but at first blush I dislike the idea. The current system gates no skill except by class, level, and "not having that one other skill". With a talent tree, everything is gated behind up to several layers of inescapable prerequisites, which you might not actually want but have to take to get there. Unless by "tree" you're thinking of something more like several trees whose branches grew into each other and fused, so that in general Steele only needs one of several possible prerequisite nodes on the tree.

More like an individual level in each given tree, basically the way tease attacks work right now.  A node-based system might also be viable, of course.  Less like Borderlands, even though I like how the Borderlands system works for that game.

Fall of Eden talent tree is OK because if you fuck up your build you can grind some more and go for something else. TiTS has level caps.

The idea is to go for a more FoE-like system where in theory if you want to you can go get everything, but there's little pressure to do so beyond wanting to do it.

The way DtD handles it is that you have your level, which goes from 1 to 5, and each class is actually five classes that each have the one before as its prerequisite.  Once you take your first level 3 class, you're level 3.  So you can either focus on branching out and getting a lot of different abilities, or focus on going down just one path early on to get your high-level bonuses, but with enough time and experience you can do both.

I don't understand why the answer to "bows OP" is "rebalance the whole game" rather than "balance bows".

It's not that "bows OP" is the problem.  It's "bows are now hard to balance because they're the only kind of weapon with a special perk, and also psionics are going to have to be a thing that exists alongside classes, and also presumably other NPCs are going to offer perks for interacting with them in the future because that's how both of these games have worked".  A talent tree system offers a means of standardizing these issues instead of making them all into weird corner case exceptions that don't necessarily play nice with one another.

As for needing to interact with certain waifus, well, you already have to do that to some extent to get things like Concussive Shot, but it's also valid to just drop some new characters in whose main function is to open up access to the other main trees a la Dragon Age.  The ausar trio was just brought up as an example of characters who might easily have it added to their existing content.

 

[JesterHell]

Seeing as how I've never played the games mentioned in the OP I'm not completely sure what you mean when referencing them so I'll just throw out what I think you might mean and use Skyrim as the base for my ramblings, you can tell me if I'm right or wrong.
 

In Skyrim all skill trees are independent from each other and the perks are gated behind raw stat/connection checks and you only get one perk point per level, In TiTs however gating traits wouldn't be necessary as I think the current method of just picking a trait each level can still be applied.

Using this system each time you level you would spend your one trait point in the class of your choosing and each point spent in a class tree raises that classes level giving you the associated level perk, your overall character level would be calculated by adding all your class levels together, Using this method a tech-5/merc-3 would count as level 8 for the purpose of level cap.

I can see how this might conflict with context sensitive actions like hacking the turrets on Tarkus so I would suggest that if this method is used to lock these choices behind a class level requirement, to use the turrets on Tarkus as an example it can be made to require tech lvl 5 to hack the turrets, in which case a tech-5/merc-3 would be able to hack the turrets but a merc-5/tech-3 would not.

This method would allow for you to make a "Jack of all trades, master of none" type character and for additional classes to be unlocked as you play, you can then choose to develop skills in these classes or ignore them as per your personal preference. it would probable be best if there where multiple way to unlock the same class as to avoid Kelt type issues.

Class + Traniers

• Smuggler from Kara and Saendra.
• Mercenary from Shade and Kiro.
• Tech Specialist from Anno and ???
• Psionic from ???

To fix the bow weapon issue you can ether remove the current bow training and add another class like "Hunter" which focuses on primitive weapons like bows and spears and would be unlocked by training with Tanis or have a couple of specialization trainers for every weapon type and give a bonus trait for completing each training that only effects that weapons use.

Weapon specializations + Trainers

• Spear from Vanae Maiden/Huntress (the one from Jim's expansion)
• Sword from Queensguard and Dane (assuming you get a chance to interact with him)
• Hammer from ???
• Axe from Briha and ??? (red myr deserter)
• Bow from Tanis and ???
• Pistol from Anno and Shade (Both use a pistol of some sort)
• Shotgun from Lys and ??? (gold myr deserter)
• Rifle from ???

So thoughts?

 

[Enigmatic D]

One of the examples that come to mind for me is in Dragon Age Origins when you meet Isabella in an inn or brothel and she offers to teach you the Duelist specialization.

 

[Ormael]

Making trainers for each weapon type would in longer run make tons of them and some types of weapon will be later barely used. Like well let say ranged weapons for now we got energy based but yet we not see any meantion using plasma. Does then when we get final some akin to plasma gun/rifle/submachine gun will mean already existing trainer for energy weapons will become useless? As for now energy weapons are still those of basic type nothing with fancy stuff that power up them and yet classify them as such type. So maybe just simplify it to have 2 "subclasses" like psionics would be. One for all types of melee weapons with perks working with them and other ranged ones. Each new trainer would allow learn some new perk/special concerning melee/range usage of our weapons. Looking at Conclusive shot it could be with adjustment allowed to be used with wider range of weapons than bows. As of now I could see it's connected to bows as Tanis taught us it while trainging in bow use.

 

[JesterHell]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that plasma weapon would require a different training, I was thinking of it as a type of martial arts, it was basically to be used to represent someone trained in the relevant fighting skills.

• Spear: any spears from wooden to pneumatic
• Sword: any swords from steel to lightsabers (kendo)
• Hammer: any Hammers from steel to 40k style thunder hammers
• Axe: any axes from steel to 40k style power axe
• Bow: any bow
• Pistol: any pistol from kinetic to lasers and plasmas (equilibriam style "gun kata")
• Shotgun: any shotgun from kinetic to lasers and plasmas
• Rifle: any rifle from kinetic to lasers and plasmas

In this way the training is never outdated because even as better weapon get added they still likely to fall in to one of the above category's, although you could add heavy weapons (LMG's) and explosive's (RPG's).

Also plasma is in my mind is just another energy weapon like lasers because most of the damage come from heat energy rather then kinetic energy, this is also consistent with most sci-fi settings I know.

 

[Ormael]

Lasers and Plasma weapons as much both are energy type but works slight different way. So it would be same if I say for your examples that axe, sword, hammer are actualy the same so why make the difference between them? In each of it you swing it and in the end hitting enemy, sam as with energy weapon whatever it would be you pull the trigger aiming at enemy that also leads to it been hit. It's acualy semantics why difide energy or melee weapons in many subtypes. Also there will be if I remember well some submachine gun type weapon on Myrellion to be gained. Where would you put it as for specialization to learn using some special attacks with them? ANd I not sure if we not even later down the road see even more heavy wepaons types that may not fit to your 8 types.

 

[JesterHell]

I know that the warhammer 40k rpg has lasguns and plasma weapons as requiring different training so its not universal that all energy weapons are one training.

If more weapon types are added you add the corresponding training, Maybe basic and advanced skills?

Melee Specialization's

Basic (minor bonus)

• Unarmed (fists, padded gloves, knuckle dusters, steel capped boots)
• Blunt
• Edged

Advanced (major bonus)

• Martial Arts (In this instance martial arts just refers to unarmed combat)
• Axe
• Sword
• Spear
• Hammer
• Mace
• Whip
• Club

Ranged Specialization

Basic (minor bonus no trait)

• Archery
• Ballistic Chemical
• Ballistic Gauss
• Energy Lightning
• Energy Laser
• Energy Plasma

Advanced (major bonus)

• Bow
• Crossbow
• Pistol
• Shotgun
• Submachine Gun
• Battle Rifle
• Sniper Rifle

A thing to keep in mind is that I'm a massive Dwarf Fortress fan and in DF everything has separate skills, for instance there are five medical skills.

• Diagnostician
• Suturer
• Wound Dresser
• Bone Doctor
• Surgeon

I'm personally looking forward to the farming re-write that will add things like soil nutrient levels and require crop rotations, so "over complexity" is a not a issue in my mind.

 

[Couch]

Bit too much specialization there.  You don't want to have a billion branches, it gets confusing.  At most I would look at Pistols, Rifles, MGs, Shotguns, Cannons/Launchers and Bows as distinct weapon groups, though of course it depends on what the trainer wants to offer.  Energy versus non-energy is a separate matter, and dividing into plasma versus laser, etc. is again going into too much specialization.  Simple is good.

 

[Etis]

Overcomplicating isn't good either. Just give 1 free perk point per level to spend, gate perks behind level and possibly prerequisite perks. And weapon specialisations... Let it be simple too:

Ranged: heavy (machineguns or hand cannons, requre physique to use efficiently), light (accurate weapons, require aim), energy, kinetic, ballistic, throwable. Some weapons have 2 flags (light/heavy and energy/kinetic), some one (either hand thrown like stones and spears or ballistic like bows or slings). Can be some combos like heavy ballistic (grenade launcher).

Melee: mastery (piercing, based on both physique and aim), power (crushing, purely physique based) and finesse (energy weapons, totally aim based).

 

[Ormael]

I still stand on position about just 2 specializations - one for range and other melee weapons. Eventualy each can be divide at non-energy and energy type. That would make 2 (or 4 path for perks/specials). As Couch pointed out too: Simple is good.

If we ends up with tons of many many possible path to each use with few in total amount of different weapons ingame it will dilute idea only. As for now if you look at your classification most of those groups have like 1 weapon in it (and not think in the end would be much more there). And we still could get some unique weapons (Goovolver as for now). You got good intentions but for this game such complicated system of specializations may not work at all so it not like I saying you're wrong. It just not that type of game to propose such complicated thing to be added.

 

[JesterHell]

My first suggestion was simpler and even suggested that

To fix the bow weapon issue you can ether remove the current bow training and add another class like "Hunter" which focuses on primitive weapons like bows and spears and would be unlocked by training with Tanis or have a couple of specialization trainers for every weapon type and give a bonus trait for completing each training that only effects that weapons use.

I mean the Tech Specialist has an energy weapon focus and the Mercenary a kinetic weapon focus so having weapon specializations be an "in-class" thing made sense to me, but no one seemed to be interested in that idea and the only reply directed at me seemed to ask questions about the flaws in my training's list.

I gave the original training list as an alternative to a class based system and I only expand the list when Ormael questioned about trainers becoming useless and then expanded it further when he(?) mentioned laser's and plasma's being different, I do understand that from both a game design stand point and general player stand point that a simple system is often preferred over needlessly complicated one which is why my first suggestion was to remove any training that's independent of class as it is the simplest option of all.

 

[JDeko]

I kinda despise the classes gating in weapon types so I'd be very displeased if it happened more.

 

[Couch]

I'm not sure I understand.  The intent here is to avoid only certain weapons being viable, not enforce it.  The big draw of a tree system is that if you want to you can go and grind up until you have all the abilities and then use whatever fighting style you want.  You in particular have expressed a need to overgrind in the past because you found encounters too difficult.

Personally I would do it something like this.

 

[JDeko]

Ah, I misunderstood and thought you make it so that not only would my Techie be gated into just energy weapons but now just laser OR plasma OR electric OR thermal weapons, and not just that but just rifles OR pistols OR shotguns OR SMGs.

 

[Klaptrap]

The tree system sounds like a good addition, but it doesn't really work when there are only a few weapons viable at a particular planet/level. You'd really need to combine it with a random drop system so that we can always have the type of weapon you trained in. Or at least massively increase the number of weapons in the shops.

 

[Ormael]

I like that idea Crouch ^^

More weapons in shops. Well I not sure how many people buy many items form shops atm even. If thsoe items are quite frequently buyed then yes expanding offer of wepaons will be possible but if most things buyed are just TF items it won't work as intended just making more "junk" in shops offer. Not to say it was loosely stated in few places on old forum that most best weapons are story/quest/plot-related rewards.

@Jester: Sorry if I sound like I after simple systems and not some complicated. I wasn't much speaking from my pov but more form game current design pov. I won't mind either if we ends up with tons of trainers for any single type/subtype of weapon we can get our hands/tentacles/other type of upper limbs on.

 

[JesterHell]

Personally I would do it something like this.

I like it, simple enough as to be easily understood and complex enough so as to not be "bland" well done Sir(?) I salute you.

@Jester: Sorry if I sound like I after simple systems and not some complicated. I wasn't much speaking from my pov but more form game current design pov. I won't mind either if we ends up with tons of trainers for any single type/subtype of weapon we can get our hands/tentacles/other type of upper limbs on.

No need to be sorry, I tend to forget things like balance and other players when I think about game systems, I preferred the leveling system from Morrowind over Skyrim is because it was dependent on multiple attributes rather then the Health:Stamina:Magicka system of Skyrim.

To use the GNS theory I go

1. Simulationism: internal consistency with world lore while simulating the game world as accurately as possible
2. Gamism: it is a game and the goal is to "win"
3. Narrativism: my character is my avatar to do the things I never could or would do in real life

 

[Savin]

I was interested in what you think of my structural proposal as a means of addressing the issues with class design. As a game designer I prefer to emphasize horizontal over vertical growth as a method of curbing power creep while appealing to players with completionist streaks.  The trees system would make Steele somewhat more powerful, but also easier to balance for since the majority of the growth would be in options rather than strength.

As the game stands right now, I'm not a huge fan of this scheme. Mostly because it is, well, pointless. Prepare for a bit of rambling: 

A lot of the reason I think that is due to the Energy system TiTS uses. Having more and more special abilities, be they equipment-based or not, is ultimately rather moot when you can only use 4-5 abilities in one battle at most (and in most fights, you won't use ANY abilities, because it's not worth the energy drain. And that's only compounded by the fact that fucking causes a permanent energy loss). Two classes, and some items, can improve this, but the ultimate point is that your specials don't really matter outside of boss battles -- and then, you're only likely to use one or two individual abilities (usually a stun or a heal) to get through. Ultimately, most players can and will brute force every single encounter by mashing the shoot/attack button. And that is, at least partially, by design. Remember that most people are here for a quick fap, and don't give a rat's ass about the mechanics. The current system is simple, granting the player all the power they need to brute force the game automatically, without their having to go digging around through every trainer for abilities they'll end up feeling they need in order to avoid getting an unwanted dick up the butt. Extra abilities like the Goozooka or Concussive Shot are neat bonuses for the people who DO, but they're neither overpowering nor vital. Or at least, they shouldn't be. 

Understanding how the vast majority of players actually go through the game, we should be pushing more boring built-in passives that just improve your basic attacks rather than complexifying the way players gain active abilities and talents. 

But that's boring, so fuck 'em. 

What you've proposed is actually KIND OF like the way I initially pitched the class system to Fenoxo waaay back before he even started coding: basically each class would be a pool of CoC-style "perks" that could be chosen from at-will. I still like that approach for the three main classes, with new perks being added to the potential pool as you deal with trainers and such, but you'd theoretically always have more perks in your pool than attainable levels -- there'd always be choice, between a class talent and a bow talent, say, each level. Part of the problem here, though, is that TiTS is level-capped. That's intentional for the alpha, since there's no need for higher levels and we need balancing feedback. Adding more perks and talents would be a waste for someone who's already maxed out.

So the alternative is to separate your acquisition of talents from level/experience. Like you said, horizontal growth. The Energy system keeps that from being TOO egregious, but it still opens a lot of room for broken combinations: the big reason D&D 3.5/Pathfinder just *breaks* past Level 10 or so is that there's nigh-infinite combinations of abilities players can exploit, meaning balance becomes hard-to-impossible to maintain as new abilities roll out. That's one of the benefits of the class system in TiTS: with a few outliers, every character is internally balanced with himself. We know all the possible combinations, and can account for them. But Energy also constrains the perk approach: because you'll never be able to use more than a few abilities, having a LOT of abilities is pointless -- literally a waste of space on your character sheet, unless certain abilities are objectively better. And then you might as well dump the old ones. 

All of this shit is basically the #1 reason I've been stalling on the TiTS Tabletop Game. Figuring out a way for special abilities to work is the worst, especially with Energy lurking in the background. Ultimately, like I said, active abilities in TiTS are kind of pointless for the most part. And when they aren't, you don't WANT to use them because Energy is a finite resource that's only recently started to relax its chokehold -- very slightly, if you're a Techie. You don't want to waste ENG on most opponents, because you then have to rest afterwards (which wastes time, and opens you to more encounters without forward progress). Even fucking drains your energy, which seems wholly contrary to the entire point of the damn game. Energy's the real problem that needs to be fixed, or better yet, removed before we can really start talking about different ways to handle ability gains: because they don't MATTER right now. 

So I'm going to speak a little heresy to you. Gird your loins (especially Third/Fen if you read this). 

Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition is actually an eerily similar, and probably better, approach to how TiTS handles abilities. In fact, when I noticed the similarities, that's what prompted me to start work on the TiTS TTG in the first place. 

In 4th Edition, your class grants you several abilities each level, grouped into types (At-will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility -- hence the system's internal name, the "AEDU Power System"). Every class has several special abilities they can use at-will (let's say Volley for Techs, Sneak Attack for Smugglers, and Armor Piercing for Mercs. In the context of TiTS, this would probably modify your basic weapon attacks all the time, or outright replace them). You then gain more abilities that regenerate each encounter (like Overcharge, Power Strike, or Stealth Field, let's say). Things you can do on the regular, but not all the time. Then you have your Daily Power: the big whammie, like Thermal Detonator, Grenade, or Det. Charge. Big hits that expend your resources. You do actually have to rest to get those back, so they're emergency/boss abilities. 

You can choose between melee and ranged powers of a given AEDU type if your class supports it, and several different effects, but all the powers of a given level and type (like Level 5 Dailies) are all balanced against each other. You choose 1 from the pool at each level. At later levels, though, your REPLACE lower-level abilities of the same type. A higher level daily replaces a lowbie daily, for example. Having a pool of powers at each level also lets you customize or specialize within your given field: if I want to make a techie who specs out with energy pistols, there are powers at most levels that support that directly. If I want to make myself decent with all weapons, I can take generic powers or tech abilities that don't rely on weapon at all. 4E also assumes retraining happens all the time (because splat books hit all the time, and players want dem sweet new powers), and it's cheap as fuck. So if you go train with Tanis and he gives you a Level 3 Encounter: Concussive Shot, you can just wiggle your ass back to Tavros, buy retraining, and switch out your current power loadout for like 100C. Or he'd give you the option to do it right then and there as a reward for training. 

The net effect is that players ALWAYS have interesting abilities they're not afraid to use in every battle, they have a much wider array to choose from each level (and more possible builds, as different powers push you towards either a specific specialization or a jack-of-all-trades approach), and retroactive customization as new abilities roll out is easy and straightforward. But it also keeps most talents confined to classes, and tightly internally balanced, while giving players forward power-momentum to tackle new and harder enemies as they enter each new planet or level bracket. 

You might do something like:

• Level 1: 1st Encounter Power
• Level 2: At-will Power and 1st Utility/Passive
• Level 3: 2nd Encounter Power and 1st Daily Power
• Level 4: 2nd Utility/Passive
• Level 5: 2nd Daily Power
• Level 6: 3rd Utility/Passive
• Level 7: Replace or Upgrade L2 Utility/Passive
• Level 8: Extra Attack
• Level 9: Replace L3 Daily Power

Or whatever we'd come up with that isn't out of my ass in 5 minutes. 

 

[Couch]

So I'm going to speak a little heresy to you. Gird your loins (especially Third/Fen if you read this). 

Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition is actually an eerily similar, and probably better, approach to how TiTS handles abilities. In fact, when I noticed the similarities, that's what prompted me to start work on the TiTS TTG in the first place. 

4E is my personal preferred version of D&D, as someone who started at the dawn of 3.5 and owns basically every book from both it and 4E.  I enjoy my sorceress much more now that half her spell list isn't Fizban's Dilemma Conclusion.

But, there's a version of the same system I consider even better, and it's in 3.5.  The prototype mechanics for 4E were reworked into the only book for swordslingers that doesn't suck, the Tome of Battle, also known as Weeaboo Fightin' Magic.  I love this book.  It is the best book.  All three of the classes in it are essentially the PHB fighter classes on some much-needed steroids that let them almost keep up with the magic-users without actually going to the same heights of insanity.

The ToB system is essentially card-based.  The three classes each have a pool of special attacks that, like 4E's encounter powers, they can use once per battle, but instead of having dailies they have a means of reloading their spent maneuvers which vary depending on the class.  They have at-wills in the form of stances, a set of always-on buffs they can switch between and learn more of as they level.

Maneuvers, like 4E's powers, are traded up for better versions as they level, but unlike powers they aren't class-based.  Instead they're divided into the titular nine fighting styles, which homebrew has added dozens more of over the years.  Each class knows some but not all of the schools, and there's overlap between them, as well as some ways to get into schools you normally wouldn't.  When you trade up maneuvers, to learn the higher techniques of a school you need to already have a certain number of other maneuvers in that school, so you're limited in just how far you can spread out, but depending on your build you can get a lot of diverse skills.  It's less tightly controlled than AEDU from a pure balance perspective, but still much easier to gauge how strong a maneuver should be by its level than with spells, and it's wonderfully dynamic.

 

[Klaptrap]

As interesting as that sounds, what are the odds we will see any type of change in the way our current skill system works?

 

[Savin]

4E is my personal preferred version of D&D, as someone who started at the dawn of 3.5 and owns basically every book from both it and 4E.  I enjoy my sorceress much more now that half her spell list isn't Fizban's Dilemma Conclusion.

But, there's a version of the same system I consider even better, and it's in 3.5.  The prototype mechanics for 4E were reworked into the only book for swordslingers that doesn't suck, the Tome of Battle, also known as Weeaboo Fightin' Magic.  I love this book.  It is the best book.  All three of the classes in it are essentially the PHB fighter classes on some much-needed steroids that let them almost keep up with the magic-users without actually going to the same heights of insanity.

The ToB system is essentially card-based.  The three classes each have a pool of special attacks that, like 4E's encounter powers, they can use once per battle, but instead of having dailies they have a means of reloading their spent maneuvers which vary depending on the class.  They have at-wills in the form of stances, a set of always-on buffs they can switch between and learn more of as they level.

Maneuvers, like 4E's powers, are traded up for better versions as they level, but unlike powers they aren't class-based.  Instead they're divided into the titular nine fighting styles, which homebrew has added dozens more of over the years.  Each class knows some but not all of the schools, and there's overlap between them, as well as some ways to get into schools you normally wouldn't.  When you trade up maneuvers, to learn the higher techniques of a school you need to already have a certain number of other maneuvers in that school, so you're limited in just how far you can spread out, but depending on your build you can get a lot of diverse skills.  It's less tightly controlled than AEDU from a pure balance perspective, but still much easier to gauge how strong a maneuver should be by its level than with spells, and it's wonderfully dynamic.

Weeabo Fightan Magic is definitely a good system (and a huge step up from 3.x's Feat scheme), but the reason I shied away from it for TiTS is that ToB has a much stronger focus on active abilities than I think is appropriate for TiTS. Even without Energy to constrain you, there's the inevitable Tyranny of Choice to consider -- I don't want to see TiTS' specials menu looking like some WoW player's quickbar, loaded three rows deep. I remember my Swordsage having somethink like 10-12 readied maneuvers at level 5 -- I'd rather just be able to use 1-2 of each level repeatedly, rather than having to juggle all that information. Having a smaller list of more utilitarian (and more powerful) abilities suits a relatively simple game better, I think (and hence why the ability list I presented above was fairly cut down compared to even a 4E character!).

Plus we'd end up with both the maneuvers and stances AND THEN perks that exist outside of that scheme dealing with passive and reactive abilities -- in other words, we'd be looking at two separate systems of advancement that don't necessarily interact over one unified progression. I can totally see what you're saying in regards to the different schools and how classes get access to them.

All of that aside, what are the odds we will see any type of change regarding the current skill system?

Probably 0%. 

 

[Couch]

Weeabo Fightan Magic is definitely a good system (and a huge step up from 3.x's Feat scheme), but the reason I shied away from it for TiTS is that ToB has a much stronger focus on active abilities than I think is appropriate for TiTS. Even without Energy to constrain you, there's the inevitable Tyranny of Choice to consider -- I don't want to see TiTS' specials menu looking like some WoW player's quickbar, loaded three rows deep. I remember my Swordsage having somethink like 10-12 readied maneuvers at level 5 -- I'd rather just be able to use 1-2 of each level repeatedly, rather than having to juggle all that information. Having a smaller list of more utilitarian (and more powerful) abilities suits a relatively simple game better, I think (and hence why the ability list I presented above was fairly cut down compared to even a 4E character!).

True enough.

And yeah, the big roadblock is really getting Fen to consider an overhaul at all.  I'd even say the way Silence puts abilities on individual cooldowns would be a big step up.  Having EN be passively regenerating each turn might work as well, since at least that way you can have abilities that cost negligible energy and are thus spammable in regular fights.

 

[Ormael]

I'd even say the way Silence puts abilities on individual cooldowns would be a big step up.

I would say Silence had not only thing you meantioned well done that would be good to have in main game but it's ultimately Fen game and what he say no will not get in. So we can talk how something is better in SIlence than TiTS with it have probality same as changes to skills system (aka 0%).

Heh and now reading few above posts made me feel that it's all so cool but will never see it ingame already killin my euphory over it

 

[Savin]

I'd even say the way Silence puts abilities on individual cooldowns would be a big step up.  Having EN be passively regenerating each turn might work as well, since at least that way you can have abilities that cost negligible energy and are thus spammable in regular fights.

Certain Other Projects That Shall Not Be Named Yet takes this into account.

And yeah, tbh, even having Energy just restore to max (or half even) between fights would be a HUGE step towards actually making abilities relevant.