good question i always just kinda assumed the souls fueled their respective god kinda like in dos 2
*RANT* Does anyone else dislike the Kitsune in this game more and more as this go on? *Spoilers*
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As Balak posted in another thread, reading https://wiki.smutosaur.us/CoC2/Souls_&_Spirits is probably a good first step.
It reminds me of Death Note, where it is said that the human who uses the note will not go to heaven or hell, although it is not clear whether they go to the world of shinigami or to the void!
How about the two? Or better yet, a gigantic endless orgy watered with lots of wine, milk and fish, where no one ever gets tired, dry or flaccid, with Mallach playing his golden citole in the middle of everything!
and speaking of orgies! Only now have I realized why pregnancy is such a fetish for kitsunes (and for me too, but that's another question) to the point that they have dedicated an entire mural to portray a breeding orgy! Considering the vampire nature of kitsunes and their need for population control, plus the fact that only a few prestigious can occupy the post of matriarchs, probably the idea of being constantly pregnant or constantly impregnanting one or more women must be one of those things that most of them would like to do it, but only a few can (without receiving social disapproval for that)!
Before I start I want to point out two things
"This is my fetish" should not be a free pass for the content
"This is not my fetish" should not invalidate any of the content
All of the following is based on my perception of my memorie, the wiki, targeted replays.
1) The're Rude: Yes/No For the most part this was true, with there raciest attitudes and general deposition. But a number of the npc's that got added are pretty decent to you.
My favorite Kitsune is Kurako. Because while she dose start with a predator/prey attitude, after you prove your just as tough as her (three wins) she shows respect akin to "o hay your a bad ass too"
The issue is a lot of the Kitsune don't show that/are willing to recognize it even post you tearing though their entire defensive line all the way up to their boss.
So it tends to be the more story center Kitsune are douchebags while the more fringe ones are much more palatable/enjoyable. Wich is somewhat ironic because of their Patrion Keros's whole "only be a douchebag if they deserve it"
2) Player agency: The Kitsune fall prey to Mary Sue'ness less in their ablitys but more in so how little the player matters.
The Forest Kitsune getting away for free. Annoying, considering that they forced he fight. (No saying "there's no fight if you just do what they want" is not valid. If someone tried to mug me that's on them, not on me for refusing to hand over my wallet)
Most of the core rp being between the npc's telling each other how great they are as the character (and by extension the player) sits there clicking next over and over with no real input or choices
The timeskip for your wife an kids making you a dead beat dad. And while it's nice, saying she doesn't blame you is doesn't remove the fealing of being forced to fail them in that regard and it further shows how little you matter to the story by effect. (It's also kinda odd they didn't stave? Form what I understand Kitsune have to feed inorder to survive?)
The whole "corruption can't effect us" I think especially rubs players raw because of how much of CoC1 was based around that.
The players actions have basically no impact outside who Kinu grows up to be, and wich jerk she married. And that choice is heavily obscured behind hidden systems and random encounters.
Compared it to
Orc's: you can stomp their whole camp and make their leader your personal bitch
Palace of Ice: blitzkrieg their army and restore Etheryn to the throne.
Centaurs & Bees: Do you save them or dam them to corruption?
The Kitsune really come off as a passive experience were the character/player doesn't matter.
Personally while I enjoy the more fridge characters the lack of player agency and just how elongated the text is really damping any fun. Three paragraphs of progression will be drowned in four pages of lore dumps I didn't ask for, and Kitsune self congratulations.
Kurako is actually in my top five favorite characters because she avoids this. The player can have effects on her, and she is very to the point.
My armchair solutions would be to give the player agency in the story and move most of the text into optional questions and interactions.
TLDR, The Kitsune have great potential and range form fun to aggravating, with the whole of it is brought down by a lack of player agency and text drowning.
"This is my fetish" should not be a free pass for the content
"This is not my fetish" should not invalidate any of the content
All of the following is based on my perception of my memorie, the wiki, targeted replays.
1) The're Rude: Yes/No For the most part this was true, with there raciest attitudes and general deposition. But a number of the npc's that got added are pretty decent to you.
My favorite Kitsune is Kurako. Because while she dose start with a predator/prey attitude, after you prove your just as tough as her (three wins) she shows respect akin to "o hay your a bad ass too"
The issue is a lot of the Kitsune don't show that/are willing to recognize it even post you tearing though their entire defensive line all the way up to their boss.
So it tends to be the more story center Kitsune are douchebags while the more fringe ones are much more palatable/enjoyable. Wich is somewhat ironic because of their Patrion Keros's whole "only be a douchebag if they deserve it"
2) Player agency: The Kitsune fall prey to Mary Sue'ness less in their ablitys but more in so how little the player matters.
The Forest Kitsune getting away for free. Annoying, considering that they forced he fight. (No saying "there's no fight if you just do what they want" is not valid. If someone tried to mug me that's on them, not on me for refusing to hand over my wallet)
Most of the core rp being between the npc's telling each other how great they are as the character (and by extension the player) sits there clicking next over and over with no real input or choices
The timeskip for your wife an kids making you a dead beat dad. And while it's nice, saying she doesn't blame you is doesn't remove the fealing of being forced to fail them in that regard and it further shows how little you matter to the story by effect. (It's also kinda odd they didn't stave? Form what I understand Kitsune have to feed inorder to survive?)
The whole "corruption can't effect us" I think especially rubs players raw because of how much of CoC1 was based around that.
The players actions have basically no impact outside who Kinu grows up to be, and wich jerk she married. And that choice is heavily obscured behind hidden systems and random encounters.
Compared it to
Orc's: you can stomp their whole camp and make their leader your personal bitch
Palace of Ice: blitzkrieg their army and restore Etheryn to the throne.
Centaurs & Bees: Do you save them or dam them to corruption?
The Kitsune really come off as a passive experience were the character/player doesn't matter.
Personally while I enjoy the more fridge characters the lack of player agency and just how elongated the text is really damping any fun. Three paragraphs of progression will be drowned in four pages of lore dumps I didn't ask for, and Kitsune self congratulations.
Kurako is actually in my top five favorite characters because she avoids this. The player can have effects on her, and she is very to the point.
My armchair solutions would be to give the player agency in the story and move most of the text into optional questions and interactions.
TLDR, The Kitsune have great potential and range form fun to aggravating, with the whole of it is brought down by a lack of player agency and text drowning.
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I think Ssam hits it on the head.
In addition, (as I mentioned in a previous post on the topic of corruption) the Kitsune have this awkward place where they seem to get a blanket immunity to anything you do or are. Pure innocent example of virtue, a virgin who has never had sex....or a dark knight that has raped everyone they have come across...they consider you exactly the same.
Which makes no sense. If you are a Dark Knight you justify their racism, so they should treat you worse.
If you are pure, you are something potentially desirable, or at least odd, a virgin who has yet to be drained by a Kitsune. Still not good, but you have gone from 'scum' to 'amusing, desirable, or a toy to be played with'. Your wants and needs still don't matter, and you are still less then a Kitsune, but treated differently.
And you cannot chose to embrace your darkness with them and act like a Dark Knight should. I UNDERSTAND why the creators chose this, its to prevent what happened to Tel'Adre from happening to the Kitsune den, where a character locks themselves out of a bunch of content due to corruption. But it should be possible to do it similar to the Farm Corruption in CoC1 where it goes, "Are you sure you want to do this? Are you really sure? You will loose access to a bunch of stuff if you do this."
In any case, not only do you not really interact with them, they don't really acknowledge you.
But on top of that, they don't really have a stake in the game. Orcs, Elves, Centuars, Hornets, Driders, etc, etc, they have a stake in whats going on. This stake may be on the side of the Demons or everyone else, but they have a stake. Even the gods have some stake as it would be bad for them if everyone lost their souls and became demons.
The Kitsune are just....there. Immune to corruption and getting energy from fucking does it really matter to them who wins?
Now obviously if you read all the lore and do all the digging and treat their arrogance as it is, arrogance, its probably bad for the Kitsune if the demons win. Probably.
But it would be nice if they actually acted like the potential corruption of all their food supply and most of the people loosing their souls was a problem. I don't need them to like or even support me as a hero here. Hell I think it would be fun to have a Kitsune hero that was sent to solve the problem because, "No way we would trust a Gaijin to do this job." They can turn up late and claim credit, turn up early and claim they were their to help, and just generally act superior to you while actually doing nothing, because, "Clearly this villain wasn't actually worth my time. I mean you defeated them." (Yes I am essentially describing Gary from Pokemon.)
The last thing is an illusion, but I suspect some people think the Kitsune get more content then the rest of the game. I don't think its actually true, but between the patch notes that just address Kitsune content, a zone that to begin with was largely focused on the Kitsune (This has obviously since changed), and that certain groups (such as the Harpies) haven't had any new content in a while, I suspect the Kitsune get labelled in some people's heads as the "Thing which is stopping the thing that I like being developed."
I don't think anyone here has said that.... but I can almost certainly be sure people believe it.
In addition, (as I mentioned in a previous post on the topic of corruption) the Kitsune have this awkward place where they seem to get a blanket immunity to anything you do or are. Pure innocent example of virtue, a virgin who has never had sex....or a dark knight that has raped everyone they have come across...they consider you exactly the same.
Which makes no sense. If you are a Dark Knight you justify their racism, so they should treat you worse.
If you are pure, you are something potentially desirable, or at least odd, a virgin who has yet to be drained by a Kitsune. Still not good, but you have gone from 'scum' to 'amusing, desirable, or a toy to be played with'. Your wants and needs still don't matter, and you are still less then a Kitsune, but treated differently.
And you cannot chose to embrace your darkness with them and act like a Dark Knight should. I UNDERSTAND why the creators chose this, its to prevent what happened to Tel'Adre from happening to the Kitsune den, where a character locks themselves out of a bunch of content due to corruption. But it should be possible to do it similar to the Farm Corruption in CoC1 where it goes, "Are you sure you want to do this? Are you really sure? You will loose access to a bunch of stuff if you do this."
In any case, not only do you not really interact with them, they don't really acknowledge you.
But on top of that, they don't really have a stake in the game. Orcs, Elves, Centuars, Hornets, Driders, etc, etc, they have a stake in whats going on. This stake may be on the side of the Demons or everyone else, but they have a stake. Even the gods have some stake as it would be bad for them if everyone lost their souls and became demons.
The Kitsune are just....there. Immune to corruption and getting energy from fucking does it really matter to them who wins?
Now obviously if you read all the lore and do all the digging and treat their arrogance as it is, arrogance, its probably bad for the Kitsune if the demons win. Probably.
But it would be nice if they actually acted like the potential corruption of all their food supply and most of the people loosing their souls was a problem. I don't need them to like or even support me as a hero here. Hell I think it would be fun to have a Kitsune hero that was sent to solve the problem because, "No way we would trust a Gaijin to do this job." They can turn up late and claim credit, turn up early and claim they were their to help, and just generally act superior to you while actually doing nothing, because, "Clearly this villain wasn't actually worth my time. I mean you defeated them." (Yes I am essentially describing Gary from Pokemon.)
The last thing is an illusion, but I suspect some people think the Kitsune get more content then the rest of the game. I don't think its actually true, but between the patch notes that just address Kitsune content, a zone that to begin with was largely focused on the Kitsune (This has obviously since changed), and that certain groups (such as the Harpies) haven't had any new content in a while, I suspect the Kitsune get labelled in some people's heads as the "Thing which is stopping the thing that I like being developed."
I don't think anyone here has said that.... but I can almost certainly be sure people believe it.
We'll file this away for later reference.
There are consequences for what you do either way, they just don't involve kicking their asses and making them kiss your feet. You can actually skip a whole boss fight for being nice to them when you didn't need to be. The person who was going to adopt the scouts was going to have two completely different attitudes for all three of them depending on how you approached them back in the old forest.
This is called not being a bubble person, which is one of the core tenets we set out to have from the ground up in the core design doc: it's why the companions talk about each other, Brint and Garret have a broship going, etc, etc, etc. People actually have a life and interact with each other outside of your purview; the world doesn't immediately freeze when you're not around to observe it like the way it did in the first game. Yeah, it makes it look like you're not the only catalyst in the game and people acknowledge each other. Small price to pay for the world being far more alive.
Furthermore, you actually have to ask them for their opinions on each other, so if you click on the button that says "get fucked" don't be surprised when you actually get fucked.
What could be equally precious to you, that you could give up for the lives of your wife and daughter to be restored? Ah, a decade of memories growing up with them, that's what.
(Laughter)
Can't be corrupted... because already demons. Raises the question of the nature of demonhood, what it means, and how it pertains back to Kas.
Also, to stop the flood of people pitching me their donut steal chimaera OC ideas back in the early days just after release.
See, this where I know you're talking bullshit, because you're making a gross oversimplification of the matter: let's just take this one example, of who Kinu grows up to be, and see its knock-on effects on --
-Adult Kinu's character interactions. Two entire separate characters.
-Every single character who talks about Kinu.
-Every single scene which involves her, which has options opened and closed depending on who she is.
-One, soon to be two entire questlines.
-Alters her stats, loadout, and weapons.
-And far, far more.
And unlike the examples that you give down below, both are equally fleshed out, both routes actually have an equal amount of content preplanned out for in great detail.
Deliberate, in the same way the Witcher games obscure the effects of your decisions until later, and the Ultima games had you choosing between two virtues in every iteration of the gypsy's tent. I wasn't always successful, but I wanted people to be genuine in their answer instead of driving through the meta to a point.
And if you didn't trigger at least a reasonable number of her random encounters, you clearly didn't give enough of a crap to visit your daughter enough, so why should you have a say in her upbringing in that case?
Each of the examples of "player agency" basically falls flat. Basically it boils down to what I call false choice -- the illusion that you have a choice to do something, but you really don't because the writers so far only really accounted for one path and if you don't do that you lock yourself out of massive amounts of content.
-Orcs. The only REAL choice you have here is to make Arona chieftain, because otherwise you cut out a huge amount of content -- Roljar, Arona herself, Ragnild, Hretha, the orc lodge, Infrith in the future. Getting Arona exiled or noping out at Benny simply cuts all that content off at the knees.
-Palace of Ice: You don't "blitzkrieg" anyone's army, you literally sneak in through the bloody gardens and stealth into the palace. So you're wrong to begin with. Neither, regardless of what happens during the events, do you actually deviate from the script of "chase off Kasyrra, expose Alissa, make Ryn regent." The true choice there is whether you romanced Kas or not -- which again, works in the same fashion: there's a whole bunch of content if you actually choose to romance Kas, but not doing so doesn't provide the same. Once more, another false choice.
-Centaurs and Hive: Same difference. And you don't have a real choice in that once more in that killing Taldahs cuts out an enormous amount of centaur content, including Amhri; while corrupting the hive actually lets you fuck Liaden, it's a small price to pay for losing out on the entirety of companion Azzy and ALL her content and interactions with the world at large.
And it plays out the exact way I expected it to: the difference between the corrupt/save steam achievements is extremely blatant, with roughly five times as many people choosing to save the centaur village than corrupt it (22.1% vs 4.9%), and three times for the orcs (18.2% vs 6.0%) and that's even counting the achievement hunters. Compare this with 6.9% vs 5.9% for Inari vs Hime Kinu -- now THAT is more a sign of actual meaningful choice and player agency.
(Laughter) The only changes she makes is that she stops attacking you, and that doesn't even actually diverge. There's a mild divergence in the opening depending on whether you lost or won against her three times in a row, but it converges down the line. Well, there's also the matter of her complete attitude change if you're one of them, but that's something shared by every foxen NPC in the game.
You want player agency? Sure, become one of them, and every single encounter immediately becomes non-hostile. Every single NPC does an about-face in their apparent attitude to you. Enough player agency, or is it not the kind of player agency you like?
***
Invariably, whenever I hear "player agency", all it really translates into is "I want to swing my big dick around and swat every character who gets in the way of my power fantasy. Any other choice which is presented doesn't count regardless of the far-reaching effects it has on the narrative", and given the entire thrust of your post it falls straight into this mold. Yes, there is player agency in that your actions have far-reaching effects, even if not immediately apparent. No, they don't involve feeding your need to feel like you've got the biggest dick around, that's all.
The boss has already weighed in on what he thinks of power fantasies, so I won't repeat myself.
Every single complaint you've given boils down to "I want to punch those people who slighted me in the face and I can't", and if you're feeling upset that you can't just up and slaughter/dominate all the foxes Overlord style, then I've achieved my goal.
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Reading all this made me think deeper about some parts of the game, but I want to focus on one part of it specifically:
I never saw the events in the way you just prevented them and I think that is partly because the incomplete nature of the game.
The choices feel meaningful, because they seem to result in different, but presumably equaly sized, content.
We do not know better, because the game is unfinished and so our own assumptions seem like promises of content.
When the Kitsune transformation came, the Kitsunes felt finished. It never felt like there was room for an alternative way.
So there where less chances to assume it and so it felt more constricted than the areas where we could still tell ourself that there would be more content.
Basically, your content is not more restricive than other content, but it feels that way because of how it is implemented.
At least I made that mistake and the fact that I was looking forward to the Foxes but was annoyed by their attitude and the lore behind them made me latch onto that feeling even stronger.
Thank you for your lengthy post, it gave me much to think about, and sorry for my misconceptions.
There is one thing I would like to ask you, however.
You wrote that the Kitsunes are basically demons. Are there plans to actually explore the nature of demons and the importance of the soul within the game? Or will there be only food for thought, because it would go beyond the planned scope?
I never saw the events in the way you just prevented them and I think that is partly because the incomplete nature of the game.
The choices feel meaningful, because they seem to result in different, but presumably equaly sized, content.
We do not know better, because the game is unfinished and so our own assumptions seem like promises of content.
When the Kitsune transformation came, the Kitsunes felt finished. It never felt like there was room for an alternative way.
So there where less chances to assume it and so it felt more constricted than the areas where we could still tell ourself that there would be more content.
Basically, your content is not more restricive than other content, but it feels that way because of how it is implemented.
At least I made that mistake and the fact that I was looking forward to the Foxes but was annoyed by their attitude and the lore behind them made me latch onto that feeling even stronger.
Thank you for your lengthy post, it gave me much to think about, and sorry for my misconceptions.
There is one thing I would like to ask you, however.
You wrote that the Kitsunes are basically demons. Are there plans to actually explore the nature of demons and the importance of the soul within the game? Or will there be only food for thought, because it would go beyond the planned scope?
Finally someone used facts and logical arguments, SO IT WAS NEED TO SUMMON THE FUCKING CREATOR OF THE ENERGY SUCKER FOXES FOR THE BATTLEFIELD!
I couldn't take any more idiots complaining about them and saying that they shouldn't receive any more content, without even trying to present good reasons for that! They look like children complaining that their favorite comics/cartoon/anime character has been humiliated and they don't accept it! When I start reading a paragraph of more than eight lines about why kitsunes are "toxic" and unpleasant, my mind already sums it up to "I don't like kitsunes because they don't lick my boots with a sincere smile on their face and a heart full of gratitude and joy! That's why I don't want any more content for them! ". It's like trying to argue with a flat-earther, and that's a mistake you only make once!
But hey Tobs, I at least give him credit for trying to present his point in a more organized and less emotional way than many others on this forum, because even though he is wrong, you better make a mistake because your information was wrong, than because YOU don't want to get it right! (I swear this phrase seems much deeper and I knew it in Portuguese!)
And look on the bright side, you wanted to introduce characters that made people think and reflect, IN A PORN GAME, well, mission accomplished!
There are a lot of people on this forum who could learn a lot from you! Keep it up, because few have the ability to recognize when they are wrong! Mainly in public!
People have to learn that negative emotions can even be a powerful weapon, but that they also always turn against us!
This is completely unrelated and I hope that I'm not being offending by saying this but, could you maybe ease up on the constant exclamation points after sentence? It looks as if you're exclaiming everything even when not required to. ^^'
My bad. I hadn't noticed!
I must be rusty in writing, since I had started writing fanfics before the pandemic, but I ended up locking up with everything that happened in 2020, so my touch for pointing is not there.
I dont know why you responded so hostilely, but ill try to a address some of your responses and the words you tried to put in my mouth
Also if Kitsune are demons can have kids using bits vamped bits of souls, what in the heck has Kas been having problems with?
If you have no interest in talking about/random people thoughts on the Kitsune, by all means just say you don't want feed back on it. but attacking a person, or trying to force your narrative onto their words isn't productive
I was more speaking about the win sex stuff
A few lines back in forth are one thing and can be a very good thing, but entire pages were the character (who is sitting at the table next to them) has no input nor presences is a failure of player agency
The times i did ask for more details i was happy to get them, I'm talking about the pages of text you get trying to do even the most basic options
I don't know what you were going for here?
I'm not quite sure why you laughed at my view instead of forming a response if you didn't care for it, its kinda rude honestly.
I mean that also raises serous questions. "Demons lack empathy and struggle with ideas such as compassion, consent, and friendship; they are driven by pure and unrestrained ego and lust. The idea of resisting urges, especially sexual ones, is nearly foreign to demons; it takes a truly strong-willed demon, such as Kasyrra, to focus on long-term gains over short-term pleasures." according to the wiki. so that ether means they are all as willed as Kas or the Ki can substitute for the soul.
Also if Kitsune are demons can have kids using bits vamped bits of souls, what in the heck has Kas been having problems with?
I mean you literally quoted me saying that "who Kinu grows up to be, and wich jerk she married". I literally said that the player had impact over it. I don't know why you decided to attack that, and claim i was talking "bullshit"
I don't know why your attacking me personally again. But form her 13ish events, I only had five proc over fifty sleeps. At that point i had progressed enough though the world and ended up freeing them. If there was anyone to know how many events there was or the ability to make them proc i would have done more.I find it a bit unreasonable to lambast a player for not having random events occur.
In all of my examples the champion (and by extension the player) dose things and story happens. In most of the Kitsune stuff the champion (and by extension the player) just sits there and watches story happen around them.
...no? that shows more people did the centaur village and the orc fort. That's all the numbers show. Numbers that would "sign of actual meaningful choice and player agency." would be number of options opened/closed, or like amount of text difference.
Again please stop with the personal attacks, no point did I state a desire to stomp them into the ground. I pointed out why some people would be put off that there free "incorruptible" shield existed in a game with corruption in the name.
At no point did i say any of that, no did i indicate it in anyway. My complaints were you had to much unnessay text and felt like the players few options to affect the story, nether of which you attempted to answer. Instead you ignored my personal thoughts and inserted your own narrative into my feedback. Furthermore the fact you are trying to rewrite my entire argument as one of violence is intellectually dishonest.
If you have no interest in talking about/random people thoughts on the Kitsune, by all means just say you don't want feed back on it. but attacking a person, or trying to force your narrative onto their words isn't productive
Quick note for later next time, after interacting with young Kinu in the dream, I recommend walking back and forth over her square until an event pops up. While it is random in which one procs you CAN force one into happening if you can bother to do a little A+D key pressing back and forth. Only one happens each dream so you can't get another after getting one of the 13, but still, it's all possible to force them to proc. (This method has actually made it easier to get high points (Or high negative if you're going for Hime) in Kinu's upbringing in a short amount of time and thus the only thing raising my day counter by that point was getting enough kits for Kiyoko's 9th tail. (Which an event for Young Kinu's is locked behind having that many kits iirc)
That really useful to know, thank you. I thought it was set when you went in the dream so each sleep I would hope for a proc talking to Kinu then be on my way to fox babe
Well, it is said that time passes differently on the astral plane, so it is not so strange to have this method!
It works in the same way as the tutorial, no matter how many movements you make, time just doesn't pass at all.
Although I used this method to "complete" my Kinu, but no matter how many times I did it, I only got 10 or 11 events! (I can't remember for sure what events were missing, since it's been over a month and a half since I played CoC2, so my memory is not very good. I think one of them had to do with mushrooms.)
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But seriously, thank you very much for pointing out the problem with the sling points!
There is nothing worse in a writer than language addictions.
and has obviously never set fire to anthills with a magnifying glass while laughing maniacally
If you saw this movie, you would think well before doing that!
and if you saw this movie you'd understand my lack of empathy
Either of them fits perfectly, but if I had to bet, I would say he talked about the anime!
Because you're making a stupid meme argument, the source of which I know, and I'm tired of seeing it over and over again when it holds about as much water as "der r 2 much fury futa in da gam". Like the futa furries, it's an argument that attacks not the game, but a caricature that they've constructed in their minds.
Ah, now we're resorting to "it's not REAL player agency, my actions don't have any effect if it's not fucking them and teaching them a lesson after they tried to mug me."
Or you admit the PC DOES have player agency and your actions in that encounter have knock-on effects down the line?
If you mean those random events, then yes, they're meant to show that people have complicated inner lives without needing you to butt in and do everything for them. They're based on Harvest Moon/Story of Seasons inter-character events where the player character can be peripheral to the event. No. Bubble. People. You're not the center of the universe.
And yet people would be hard-pressed to argue that you don't have player agency in HM/SoS.
Anyone remember the old Helia/Kiha camp follower events with the other inhabitants of your camp? This is exactly that. You're just an observer watching Kiha trying to learn how to cook.
When you make arguments, don't engage in hyperbole, not especially when I can pull up the documents and check the page counts myself. All the repeat approach blocks for Komari, Miko and Mai, Kohaku and Nakano are one or two paragraphs at base, excluding variants. Buy things from Kohaku? First-time introduction to her shop is one page, repeat visits are one paragraph. Meeting Kohaku for the first time? Four pages, variants included. Looks about right to me.
Because the implication you're making there is that it's some kind of small thing, which it isn't. It's absolutely massive, and the way you influence your daughter's adulthood has effects on not just her as a person, not just the way people react to her, reshapes the entire colony and its future and permeates every single piece of the content. And that is a massive amount of player agency through a seemingly small action like encouraging your daughter to behave one way or another. Who Kinu grows up to be is extremely important narratively and mechanically with far-reaching effects and even if it were just that one decision, it allows you as the PC and her to have enormous knock-on effects down the line.
But as we've seen, that doesn't count if it doesn't mean flapping one's dick around.
Because it's one that's so patently wrong it doesn't deserve anything more than scorn.
Not my problem if you don't pay attention. The answers are all there, or even on the forums where I've previously pointed them out. But then, given how you turned the whole stealth entry into the Palace of Ice into a "blitzkrieg against their army" I don't hold much stock in your recollection of events and details in the game.
If you're going by this metric, sure. If we're following the railoaded storyline for story stuff:
-You work with them despite their scorn and try to change their opinions of the natives.
-You try to humanise the people of the Marches in their eyes so they don't go full imperial Japan on you.
-You return a princess of the blood to them and cause several major political problems.
-You nominally become one of them and throw the existing hierarchy into chaos.
-Through your daughter, you lift the mood of the people and give them hope.
-Through your daughter, you change the future of the colonies.
-Every action Kinu takes is indirectly driven by the PC.
What is this if not the player driving events? Oh wait, sometimes people have encounters with each other that may not always directly involve the player character, but sometimes showcase the effects of the player character's or Kinu's actions. How terrible.
No. Bubble. People.
Players overwhelmingly did not pick the choices that led to content dead ends, which means your examples of "player agency" are false when the storylines themselves are examples of content railroads with neither meaningful choice nor player agency in what happens because deviating from the content railroads means it drying up like thin spit on a hot stove. When players equally engage in both options, or at least do not so overwhelmingly lean towards one option without an extremely good reason to do so, that is an example of meaningful choice in the sense that they do not feel they're missing out on content by picking one option over the other.
The fact that you can't comprehend that the comparison is between the options in the same content block and not between the content blocks is not my problem.
Liar.
"after you prove your just as tough as her (three wins) she shows respect akin to "o hay your a bad ass too""
"The issue is a lot of the Kitsune don't show that/are willing to recognize it even post you tearing though their entire defensive line all the way up to their boss."
"Orc's: you can stomp their whole camp and make their leader your personal bitch
Palace of Ice: blitzkrieg their army and restore Etheryn to the throne.
Centaurs & Bees: Do you save them or dam them to corruption?"
"I was more speaking about the win sex stuff"
You're dealing with people who can read between the lines here, and retreating to "but I didn't say literally that!" isn't going to help here. All the examples of "player agency" you've given just so conveniently happen to have the PC kicking peoples' shit in and dominating them, you get upset when they don't kiss your ass after you do kick their shit in, and entire divergent NPC attitudes towards the player and skipping bosses isn't important compared to "the win sex stuff". Your literal example of why you thought Kurako was a shining paragon of player agency was that she kowtowed to you once you beat her enough times. Short of actually becoming a kitsune, you don't otherwise get to change her attitude to you or her scenes one bit.
Pretty obvious at this point. Who do you think you're fooling?
Objectively false.
Objectively more than all the examples you provided, where the story terminates if you don't play along with it.
Lie. Also, projection, since you simply conveniently ignored all my counterpoints (eg. becoming a kitsune and the massive effects this has on all fox NPCs)
Projection, given that you're attacking a caricature that doesn't even exist to begin with. Also, nice try at Deny Attack Reverse Victim Offender.
Easily provable to be false by a quick search of this very topic.
You know what's not productive?
-Attacking a caricature based on a meme
-Motte and bailey
-Lying
-Using hyperbole
-Not getting your supporting facts right to begin with
-Attempting deny attack reverse victim offender
-Projection
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Please don't take this the wrong way man, but you are a MASSIVE dickhead. I've been lurking the forum for only a couple days but I've never seen a person so far up their own ass that I had to make this account. I've also never touched your kiyoko content because I usually make pure female PCs, but I'll check it out now just to see if you're talking out of your ass or not. Even if the stuff turns out great, all of my future interactions with your content will be colored by your awful personality, so thanks for that. Oh and best believe I'll be back in this thread to post a scathing review if that shit is anywhere below a 5/10.
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