*RANT* Does anyone else dislike the Kitsune in this game more and more as this go on? *Spoilers*

[Maximilian]

I don't necessarily mean as individuals, more as there culture and ideals, as well as 'god.'

Now for the ones you meet before the dungeon, in the woods they start with an ambush into hostile negotiations, for an 'exchange' but don't even try to offer you money, that they drop along with berries (food.) They get some leeway for being dumb and desperate, but you can basically afford one set of food in town for each victory over them.

Kiyoko and Hatsu and both fine, explaining what they need/want and leaving it up to you.

The other two encounters in the Frostwood, the agent and the mixed brigands, all seem to assume sucking your life force for sex is an 'equal' exchange, they should just come out and admit they are no better then any other monster in the area (the fact that I can only execute very select mobs has always baffled me, why even have it in for anything? But that's another tangent.)

Now, onto the dungeon!
First of all calling me a barbarian and not having the ability to decry them as having a barbaric imperialistic caste structure for a government where having the right hair colour or even having to be a Kitsune in there homeland seems to give privilege over non-fox people whom they must have a large population of to feed off of for their non-food needs.

For the first two fights, it's hard to judge as they just seem like 'Ah that person we sucked at robbing! better try it again!" or "What, WE left the door unlocked!? Well you gave us free food so bye!" and "Fuck you for making noise. I WANT MY TEA!"

Now mister sword-boy is super "It is my duty to stop any invader! Respect my authority!" and they he is the quickest fight in the place because he is a solo target is kinda funny, why do my companions react after the fight like he was a problem, the Drider Queen is way harder, oh well I'm surprised he did not gut himself for his failure as soon as he woke up.
Side note based on the ending where you are forced to be his shame-wife, it turns out the best way for the champion to survive is just fuck off to a populated location that has a gods attention because demons gonna lose anyway.

The sisters of coarse call you a barbarian and then talk about equivalent exchange even though they know they are in the wrong for stealing, but 90% of the damn Kitsune are hypocrites or just trying to justify being trash people.

Now Komari, I actually like her, she seems reasonable, I've only even done this with they Amulet before so I decided to fight her and she how she acts when you ARE just invading as a mercenary. And while a little paranoid she is still fairly understanding.

And at long last the great god of tricking! Well he is a creature that feeds off of souls and keeps all of his chosen people souls 'safe' and away from them, I thought that was why they had to 'feed' but Kiyoko was around during the godwar but we don't know how long it had been going on/if they were always soul suckers or if that is because of him, can't say. But does that mean all Kitsune HAVE to worship him?

TLDR
I'm not salty because fox tails are top tier tails and I like to make a character with seven of them, or that they are the most fleshed out faction by along shot, but I can't stand how smug and superior the majority of them act, would totally end my relationship with Kiyoko if she was so proud to have a daughter like Hime-Kinu, like that is FAILED parenting.

END RANT PLEASE POST HATE MAIL BELOW


p.s. I know they are not finished I just needed to vent about something at 4:00am and this had been brewing, 'equivalent exchange' not every one wants sex in their sex game!?
Wait, what? I'm the weird one?

 

[The Observer]

Wow, it's almost like a culture based on one of the most homogenous, insular and self-superior peoples to ever exist is homogenous, insular and self-superior. This is further taken to eleven when one is not merely physically, mentally, and culturally, but also fundamentally metaphysically different.

I'm actually enjoying this, because it means what I'm doing is getting across.

As any kitsune, 'nuki, oni or other subject of the Sakura Throne will say, well, fuck you too, gaijin; this is for the gunboat diplomacy two to three centuries ago. And to be completely frank, given the state of most of Savarra these days, you pretty much are a barbarian.

 

[Maximilian]

Oh I know it's part of the intention, if it was written poorly I would not care as much. it's just when someone insults me like 'barbarian' in a game, I react in one of two ways normally I attempt to talk to them and explain why their point of view could use adjustment and how diplomacy and actions are more important than cultural stigma. Finally if terms cannot be reached, I oblige them and show then what barbarism is. Also what era of Japanese history are you aiming to emulate, my guess would be 1890ish-WWII when they were emulating western colonization, which in that case they might be a bigger threat to other nearby nations then silly sex demons as the Japanese had little problem disposing of population who could not be taxed heavily.

This interesting thing in your response to me is that other non-kitsune citizens feel the same way, as how the limited information we players have it seems like they would be second class citizens, much like the Japanese treated peoples from the islands chains and not the main island.

 

[The Observer]

it's just when someone insults me like 'barbarian' in a game, I react in one of two ways normally I attempt to talk to them and explain why their point of view could use adjustment and how diplomacy and actions are more important than cultural stigma.

The funny thing is, they're pretty warranted in calling most other peoples barbarians. Consider the state of most of the world at the time of the game:
-Literally blown back to the Bronze Age.
-Largely illiterate and ignorant.
-The vast majority of government and power structures have been demolished and reduced to local efforts, if at all. Inability to maintain infrastructure, public works and government services is rife. Local leaders like Carmen are effectively figureheads without any meaningful power. Where there is still some actual power, as in the Winter City, much of that locus has diminished; the pale elves once ranged across the entire Frostwood and now are but a single city-state and the glacier beyond.
-The fullest extent of patronage and industry in most areas has been reduced to cottage industries, if anything. When we get to Tychris we'll get to see what happened to the major industrial and commercial centers, and Tychris was a good, if not best-case scenario.
-Lawlessness is rife; marauding slaver orcs and unpaid mercenaries do as they please.

The further you get from the epicenter of Old Belhar, the better things get, but best case scenarios like Jassira and Tronarii which managed to hold onto some semblance of civilisation are rare. By every reasonable metric, be it peace, prosperity, culture, science (magitech included) and engineering (never mind that they "borrowed" so much from Old Belhar to jump-start that) they certainly think they have reason to believe they're superior to everyone else and as far as the Champion is concerned, you're a barbarian.

Of course, a native of the Marches might disagree, but hey, that's what makes this interesting. It's up to you to prove them wrong, hey?

While much of these kinds of games is, at their core, a power fantasy for the player. Is it irritating to have people act according to what they ought to behave like, prejudices included? Indeed. Do I get a kick out of it all? Oh hell yes. Ah, I still remember the numerous threads of people demanding to be able to kill Kelt, Raphael, and Dr. Badger. Good times. Oh, and Riya, too. That one was fun to watch.

Also what era of Japanese history are you aiming to emulate, my guess would be 1890ish-WWII when they were emulating western colonization,

I've written extensively on this in my thread, so I don't feel like repeating myself here.

This interesting thing in your response to me is that other non-kitsune citizens feel the same way, as how the limited information we players have it seems like they would be second class citizens, much like the Japanese treated peoples from the islands chains and not the main island.

Those in the capital look down upon the provincials; those in the provinces look down upon the colonial diaspora. Several threads explore this. Every couple centuries there's a nekomata rebellion, eternal malcontents that they are, which is dealt with in typical oriental fashion.

But when it comes to them against the round-eyes, you can bet they stick together.

***

Going back to the point, the characters are acting as they should given who they are and what the situation is. If modern-day western sensibilities are being challenged or thought is provoked, I am more than content. You are free to dislike them, of course, and not engage in the content if it is too irksome, but this is what it is.

 

[BubbleLord]

I for one think that Takahiro will make everyone realize that deep down, we're all just shitposting kitsune when we get to the nitty gritty of it.

 

[Evil]

Just to chime in that the origins of the term "barbarian" dates back to ancient Greece and literally meant someone who didn't speak Greek or followed Greek traditions. Likewise the Romans used it to describe people who weren't Roman. In the strictest terms, a barbarian wasn't some savage wrapped in furs, it just refers to someone who wasn't part of the culture and perceived as inferior for that fact.

 

[mrpockets]

Just to chime in that the origins of the term "barbarian" dates back to ancient Greece and literally meant someone who didn't speak Greek or followed Greek traditions. Likewise the Romans used it to describe people who weren't Roman. In the strictest terms, a barbarian wasn't some savage wrapped in furs, it just refers to someone who wasn't part of the culture and perceived as inferior for that fact.

that just means that they say 'barbarian' instead of 'gaijin'

 

[HalfALifeLol]

Just to chime in that the origins of the term "barbarian" dates back to ancient Greece and literally meant someone who didn't speak Greek or followed Greek traditions. Likewise the Romans used it to describe people who weren't Roman. In the strictest terms, a barbarian wasn't some savage wrapped in furs, it just refers to someone who wasn't part of the culture and perceived as inferior for that fact.

Fun fact, the greek word for Barbarian basically just means 'jibberish speaker' because all other languages were of course inferior (except Egyptians, which the Greeks were disturbingly similar to Weebs about in term of infatuation.

Also, its stunningly ignorant to act as if Japan has sole claim to being insular and self-assured in the world, much less Asia. China in particular has a stunningly racist streak (for example, their traditional term for Japanese is just 'dwarf' and their oldest term for foreigner doesnt acknowledge them as having the 'human' trait). Then there is Korea being Korea. There was even a recent incident with a government-based show equating Africans to 'potential' Chinese using a washing machine... in exactly the way you are thinking.

Sad fact about humans, we tend to be stunningly racist and its not really unique or new to anyone. Japan just had a convenient island like a certain other set of Islands and their larger (but functionally as isolated) continental descendants.

It isnt even that Isolationist, that's mostly an Edo meme that the Meiji founders tricked the more gullable westerners into spreading.

 

[Maximilian]

Well I just read the part of your post about the era, I never knew about the Brazil immigration so that was an interesting read, even if the institutional racism is reversed from this scenario.
On topic, I just hope at some point we get to show them and/or Keros what for it means to belittle the PC, because kicking all their asses boss rush style does not seem to do it at this point. Also I had no intention to argue over your choice of subject matter, I understand fully that a game like this will never offer every choice to every player. But because I can't vent my frustrations to the characters in any way I went on a rant here!

I hope you keep feeding on the frustrations of players like your creations feed on the player character.

 

[Stemwinder]

One nice(?) thing about the game so far is that you have the option to either try and find the best solution to the different factions and clans' problems or you can be the one who provides that last little push that brings their house of cards tumbling down around them. If you don't like a faction it's more satisfying to ruin their organization entirely than a simple bloodbath would be.

 

[Stemwinder]

Just to chime in that the origins of the term "barbarian" dates back to ancient Greece and literally meant someone who didn't speak Greek or followed Greek traditions. Likewise the Romans used it to describe people who weren't Roman. In the strictest terms, a barbarian wasn't some savage wrapped in furs, it just refers to someone who wasn't part of the culture and perceived as inferior for that fact.

That -was- the image of a barbarian, though. For Greeks the fundamental state of civilized humanity was in the Polis. Barbarians, lacking them, were seen to not only be lacking in civilization but in moral character, they were fundamentally inhuman. In the Argonautica (Jason and the Argonauts) Medea's brutality, her willingness to chop her brother into pieces to put distance between her father's ship and the Argo as he collected the pieces for funeral rites, was meant to be characteristic of a barbarian. Not only does she casually sever a close familial bond but she has no respect for funeral rites. This is classic barbarism.

And to Romans of course that which was Rome held the character of the state, superior in its military, democratic culture, and its infrastructure/management and that which was not Rome was poor, dirty, backwards, and violent (remember that Romans invented the concept of Just War, eternal conquest in self defense).

 

[The Observer]

Getting back to the point, the characters behave as they would, and I'm fine with that even if it means that sometimes people will have their jimmies rustled. I find these situations more interesting to explore and understand than outright avoiding them because people might dislike the characters, or that certain points of view are "wrong".

A very egregious example is in TiTs where several characters, despite being parts of pirate gangs, organised crime, and dystopian corporacracies are mysteriously against slavery when they're perfectly fine with involuntary body modification, casual murder, robbery and other high crimes -- slavery is where the line is mysteriously drawn. Of course, we know why this is the reason -- the modern western cultural hegemony has declared it one of the most terrible sins, and people are conditioned to have a Pavlovian aversion to it. It's commonly used as a shorthand to mark "these are the bad guys and you should hate them", and any character who condones slavery has an uphill battle against the instinctive disgust reflex to be sympathetic or even understandable.

I tried to make Ragnild's take on slavery interesting in that she opposes the practice not because of any concern about individual rights, dignity, or whatever, but simply that dependency on slaves will weaken the Kervus. This is something that she could come to believe as a result of the values she deems important, her nature as an orc, the culture that she grew up in and her mother's status as a war bride. She doesn't give a shit about the innate value of a lizard or catfolk sitting in the slave pens; this is what happens when you fight, lose and don't die. It's the way of the world as she sees it.

This is what an orc in this setting, with her history and position would believe. And it's fun to try and figure out reasonable explanations for "wrong" points of view, like "a barbaric imperialistic caste structure for a government where having the right hair colour or even having to be a Kitsune in there homeland seems to give privilege over non-fox people whom they must have a large population of to feed off of for their non-food needs". Can I figure out an argument for a hereditary caste structure that acknowledges its weaknesses, but simply places value on other concerns, and doesn't read like a caricature? Can I figure out a reasonable argument for having different rules and laws for different segments and castes of society? These are certainly positions that are complete heresy in light of the modern western cultural hegemony of the assumptions that everyone is of equal worth and equal before the law, but we are not dealing with Earth here, or humans, or the same history we have. That's what speculative fiction is for.

 

[Maximilian]

It sounds like you have a LOT more going on in your head then we as players have access to. Many of my 'issues' cannot be addressed because of the size/scope of the game, I expect we will never have a full picture, I don't even know what the world map of the game would be, or if there even is something close to one. Also in a world where a 'god' can literally tell you you are worth less then someone else I suppose it's harder to 'fight the power.'

Also I understand the western bias towards the individual over the community in many places, but my personal morals are fairly different from what most North Americans would tell you. As far as slavery goes, that is a blanket term, and not all forms are vile or 'evil' depending on the situation of the civilization. But philosophy and me will quickly go into an in depth tangent as I have already typed 3 paragraphs and removed them as that is neither here nor there.

Basically I will try to look at things from the writers point of view? I normally read things at face value, within the context of what that world has given me, and considering the world is not finished I don't have that context.

Also Cait's response to the sisters is equally jerk-faced and that's kinda funny.

 

[Stemwinder]

It's very well and good to thwart the tendency of power fantasy games to indulge the desire to defeat those with "ignorant" views and impose the "right" ones (whether that's as simple as their belief that they're superior to the player-character or as complex as their culture's view on slavery); it may please a player's ego but it makes the setting feel very shallow to give the player-character that much power regardless of what they're prophesized to be. It's equally well and good to be conscious of the setting and to attempt to write believable characters who are products of their environment.

...But there's a trap in that, too: you may be able to figure out why the kitsune think the way they do, why they have the priorities that they do, but unlike the boreal elves who chose true isolationism the kitsune would need to at least provide incentive for those they intend to rule over to suffer them. From this same in-universe perspective they're not imposing people, all of them are small and fairly weak compared to an orc or a lupine or even a human, and as a society they're very elitist and fundamentally dependent on keeping and placating a large population of non-kitsune. Based on the content we've seen there's a basic unanswered question that supercedes everything you just discussed: why would anyone suffer them?

If the society is -just- a fun concept it can feel like a collection of lore rather than something that functions. Rustling a player's jimmies can be all well and good, too, but if the natural reaction to most of the kitsune is "I kind of want to beat you up" it's hard to believe that they're in the position they're in.

 

[QualityCuntrol]

Yeah, they suck in a very specific way that makes them such compelling characters, to be honest - and these are just the outcasts and misfits! I can put up with the contradictory haughtiness, especially since it's clear that there's so much complexity and almost desperation behind it, but the thing that really gets to me is the way they deal with clear disabilities and trauma, in part because, well...that's pretty true to life.

You're not supposed to bring shame upon your line, so endure and never seek out therapy, no matter how much you suffer. Accept banishment when you start to crack, so that you can be broken somewhere far away, where your actions don't impact the family's image quite so strongly. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down, and it does not matter if you aren't a nail at all, because it has been decided that you Are A Nail, and you're simply failing at it.

Even the one the forums seem to agree is the Most Insufferable, Nakano, is clearly suffering, himself: he's breaking, but the way he's breaking is different from the way Takahiro is breaking (or has already broken), and Nakano's way is to lean into it until he shatters completely.

We're told that Miku and Mai are success stories in that they haven't completely shattered due to the impact their powers have on them, but they still get reprimanded for having broken at all. We're told that it's common for kitsune like them to exist, and yet both of them are forced to essentially self-medicate: there's no support system in place to respond to a common, devastating problem. We're told that it's acknowledged that it's just a tragedy and not a personal failure, but it is a Personal Failure anyway.

Kiyoko is desperate to leave the Astral Plane, but she does not force herself on you, even though doing so could free her. She also is happier with a respectable and miserable daughter than with a happy and hardworking one.

Kurako is strict with herself and vigilant in her appointed task, while also being a good conversationalist and will accept if you don't want to feed her. She also firstly acquaints herself with us by trying to force herself on us.

The Frostwood kitsune group not only gives you sexual pleasure in exchange for your life force, but also material gifts, often of high value to them, like scrap metal. They also will not accept "no" as an answer, even if you've proven yourself to be a reliable source of food in the past.

Kohaku is sweet and lively, hardworking, cares a lot for her underlings, and upholds very strict values. She also feels out of place and disconnected from both her country of origin and country of birth.

Komari is incredibly respectable and holds very well to the ideals of kitsune culture without being ridiculously contradictory. She also is absolutely desperate to die.

There's a lot of frustrating layers here that would be so easy to handle if only we could get it through their thick skulls, but...we're outsiders. We don't understand their values or their motivations the way they do. They themselves might already know what's wrong, but can't stop acting in a way that hurts them, the same way that we can't just stop doing painful things in our own lives and cultures. That's part of the reason I'm so fascinated with them and am eager to see how they'll grow throughout the game, despite how frustrated I get with them at times. They just have so much potential to become.

[Probably shouldn't have used the term "broken" but I am very tired and words are hard]

 

[BubbleLord]

...But there's a trap in that

Sorry but Observer wrote it; I assure you all that there are no traps in any of the content.

Edit: TBH I just think this is a little silly at this point. You guys are getting beat up over a video game. Just don't play the content if you don't like it. It's really not hard to completely avoid all kitsune.

 

[Alyeska]

I can understand why the Kitsune can be viewed in such a way. They present themselves as an imperial power trying to colonize and take over the world, sorta like the brits, and others to be honest, back in the 'colonial' days. They also present themselves as being better than everyone else.
What I noticed, as this as been pointed out earlyer in this thread, every kitsune you meet is to some extent or another, eather broken, or an exile/cast out. The only exception I have found so far is our lovely little fox-wife, and even then, I would call her damaged goods. So much isolation is not good for the mind.
If you will, a simularity might be drawn with the english dumping people into the colony in australia.
The kitsune are also dealing with a rather major overwhelming fear, they are terrafied that people will learn that they have to 'steal' life energy from others to servive. THey are under the assumption that the peoples of the frost marches will butcher them as monsters if it was ever found out. Sadly this is the most likely outcome if there secret did get out.
I should also point out, to the kitsune, the PC is a barbarian, they do not speak the language, they do not dress right, they do not walk right, every action and movement is wrong in some way shape or form. Sadly, by the same token, they are barbarians to the PC.
I will have more thoughts apon this subject later, as I just woke up to this, and felt the need to respond before I have even had my tea.

 

[Evil]

I think you touched on something very important there.

The Kitsune you meet aren't typical of their culture, to all intents and purposes, they're the rejects of the Cherry Blossom Throne. There's an inherent shame in that, being sent out to the colonies and away from the court and the opportunities that can be cultured there. Instead they're in a (to them) freezing backwater and forced to live amongst the barbarians. To compensate for that shame, some overcompensate, becoming ultra immersed in their culture despite it being an ocean away and despite it having rejected them. Others adapt.

Take Nakano for example. Had he not been a great-great-grandson of Komari, he might have led regiments of ashigaru, earning honour and praise on the battlefield with an eye on a place serving the Cherry Blossom Throne. Instead, he's the Military Provost of a colony, his legions are just seven warriors. The governor has been cursed by their own god for her failings. And in turn, those are his failings. He's not Nakano Kurokawa the warrior, he's the great-great-grandson of Komari, who not only failed her liege but also her god. That's shame on a generational level. And he's reminded of that in everything he does. His military training was in the outer areas of the Old Country, away from the throne. He's a military commander of seven individuals. He's the Military Provost of a colony where the Old Country sends the undesirables and failures. Of course he becomes immersed his the Kitsune culture, because its the only thing he has left. He's going to be the most Kitsune that a Kitsune can be, even if he was to wear his armour constantly and does everything to perfection. Its the only thing he has left.

Compare that to Kohaku, probably the most out going and friendly of the Kitsune in the Den. You have someone not blood related to Komari but still looked down upon by the rest of Kitsune society, yet she doesn't share in that shame. Her parents were simply merchants, looking to find their fortune (if you look at Japanese culture before the 20th century, you find that the merchant class were one of the most reviled stratas in society). And yet, Kohaku, despite being the daughter of merchants, not being of blood and whose kin aren't connected to the royalty of the Old Country, is in a position of authority in the den, caring and maintaining the storehouse. She is the link to the Frost Marches. And she knows it. And she uses that. A very prominent point of Kohaku is how she dresses more like a Marcher than a Kitsune, all the better to blend in with the locals and to trade with them. Some might see this a betrayal of their culture (Nakano) and others (Komari) realise that its better to adapt to this foreign land. Its also telling that Kohaku is one of the most outright friendly Kitsune that you meet.

But the main point is that the Kitsune you meet are the failures or descendants of failures. They're the ones rejected by the culture and society and left to live in a strange land and away from familiar things. Many of them are descendants of Komari, the retainer who failed her mistress and cursed by their god for that. That...that breeds a certain kind of resentment and it needs an outlet. And for many, that outlet is going to be the "barbarians" because they aren't Kitsune. They don't speak the same language. They don't follow the same traditions. Its easier to dismiss them as the ones being at fault because they're different.

But then you get the Champion. A barbarian who breaks into the Den, beats several of the Den's defenders, including the Military Provost, and yet is allowed to live when they dare to speak to the Imperial Governor?! Not only that, but they help bring Kiyoko Otome back to life (possibly along with several (dozen) children)! And they have a connection to Keros!

In any other place, that would be cause for celebration, but to the Kitsune of the Frost Marches, thats just repeated reminders of their own failings and the shame they have had to endure for generations and that fact that an outsider is blessed by both Kiyoko and Keros, well for some of them, the Champion is the encapsulation of everything they hate about the Frost Marches and they make that clear. To others, yes, the Champion has done them a great service, but at the end of the day, the Champion is still an outsider and never one of them.

 

[sumgai]

^

That's why I always picture the champ rolling his eyes and thinking, "Sure thing buddy," every time flack is given.

Also, my Champ is a little worried that one day Miko and Mai will get in a fight with Kinu and then blurt out "Oh yeah! Well we fucked your dad!"

 

[Maximilian]

Oh good now all I can think of if it is a colony, not an outpost or fort etc. how come they have not expanded in the past 200 odd years? Are they afraid of the elves? Are they under orders to have a strict population? or is there just a giant village out back the side of the tree we are not seeing, like I assume where the farming takes place?

Don't take anything I'm 'griping' about as serious criticisms. I've had a bad... month? of sleeping and I think my mind is going away.

I really want a 'world map' too bad that would restrict writers creativity when adding new factions and content, but also teleport, gates are a thing not just reserved for the player, how many people can travel via gates/waystones do they have a limit? Do many civs have them? I know the old empire invented them but do the 'successors' still use them, because I know boats are mentioned so I'm going to guess limited travel.

I'm not crazy! you're the one ranting and rambling!

 

[BubbleLord]

What I noticed, as this as been pointed out earlyer in this thread, every kitsune you meet is to some extent or another, eather broken, or an exile/cast out.

If you mean personality-wise broken/damaged, that's still not even that true. If you mean physically it's completely untrue.

However, the "exile" vibe is due to the fact that most/all of the foxes haven't even seen the Old Country. A great example is Takahiro: he's an older fox within the colony, who (at best) rode over/is descended from colonists or was a very young child before being sent over with them (I know Obs and I've talked about this but it's largely-speaking still a floating fact of how many gens deep he is). A society built-up of rejects isn't going to immediately fix/have healthy upbrought children. As Evil pointed out, they're all placed in a detrimental position. Takahiro, when he sobers up, is intended to demonstrate a "skill restricted by origin"; it's also why there's going to be scenes where folks talk about his skill in similar veins to recognition Komari has for the floofs.

Basically, many of the kitsune are highly capable and aren't "broken"; however, they've grown up/been part of a dysfunctional outcast society most of/all of their lives. The few kitsune who are borderline normal are grieving/coping in their own ways (Takahiro is great but clutched his vice of drinking, Nakano is gay poet bottom bitch boi, etc), trying to deal with the pressure of the fact that the Sakura petals falling on their colony are shameful.

So in other words, big floppy benis. The Kitsune aren't supposed to be all agreeable and likable. But this is why we're an RPG-game; you'll be able to help and "re-adjust" the fate of the colony by aiding countless kitsune. Good example is the (mostly) stable arrival of Kinu. Another would be sobering Takahiro up. Basically, the colony getting "fixed" is more of a good idea for long-term content design so getting beat up over it is extremely silly. If they appear broken, it's no different from how Heimskr is a coward who can't do more than preach and live off the charity of others instead of praising Talos in true fashion via valor in combat and the worship of all the Divine.

Praise Talos, you motherfuckers.

snip

Soft reminder Hawkethorne is big AF and probably much larger in population than the Colony. Game tile size-wise, the tree is fine. We design maps for function, not authenticity.

 

[The Observer]

The Kitsune you meet aren't typical of their culture, to all intents and purposes, they're the rejects of the Cherry Blossom Throne.

They're not necessarily rejects, but certainly anomalous in nature. You have to be mad in some form to want to leave the kind of deep-rooted society that they have on the other side of the ocean. Whether you're mad with greed for material wealth or recognition to want and go prospect in a foreign land full of barbaric natives or literally mad to the point where you may have amputated your own arm in order to test your inventions on yourself, most of them are oddballs by the standards of their society. And although this has been going on for five generations at this point, like Australians, there is a certain sense of pride in that. It's in the blood.

(if you look at Japanese culture before the 20th century, you find that the merchant class were one of the most reviled stratas in society)

And for good reason, by the standards of not just Japanese, but all oriental cultures. The one most reliable way to get Kohaku angry is to call her a merchant; her official station is something more along the lines of "storehouse manager", and she only uses the Belharan word for merchant because there's no true alternative in the language. the merchant has surrendered his identity for a rootless, cosmopolitan one, even when he shares blood with the community. Social stability rests on consuetudines et usus, unwritten norms and ethics tied to particular ethnic and cultural groups. One does not routinely scam one’s neighbors because they are kith and kin; their essential connection to you is the bond and guarantee of equitable relationships; the first thing Chinese merchants did when they wanted to become respectable was to buy land in the local community and start working it in order to show that they were putting skin in the game.

Merchants are transients, here to take advantage of a community, milk them for all they're worth and flee to the next target. And that is exactly what she does to other peoples -- milk every dyscivic practice and free-rider scenario she thinks she can get away with in the service of her own people. Oriental merchants often acted little better than thieves, and Japanese merchants in particular had a terrible international reputation for dishonesty up till about 1900.

Note that she does not sell goods to her own people; they requisition items from her and receive without money changing hands. She does not buy from them, but rather, receives allotments of goods that they have produced. This state of affairs necessitates incredible levels of social trust to not violate unspoken agreements that frankly I don't think any Marcher society is capable of as-is. The downside of such extreme in-group trust, of course, is extreme mistrust of out-groups and equally severe repercussions against anyone of the in-group who betrays that trust, even slightly (see: Takahiro). It's a societal trade-off they've made because they simply value different aspects of society that those with modern sensibilities may find irksome or wrong.

Otome

NGL, I laughed at this.

how come they have not expanded in the past 200 odd years?

An important thing to remember is that different peoples simply don't operate on the same time scale or have the same sense of time as we do. Etheryn is shocked, shocked that a four hundred year-old treaty is not merely defunct, but the backing authority no longer exists. The Var Ridell line has been going through extremely tumultuous times due to the crown being passed down twice in the extremely short timespan of three centuries.

Foxen don't have the lifespan of thousands of years the boer'alvar might expect barring illness, misfortune or violence, but their efforts are multi-generational and exceedingly thorough. Simply depopulating the land would be exceedingly simple, which they've done before against troublesome populations on their island chain -- send in the 'nukis, give them support, and watch them spread locust-like over the land by simply outbreeding and outnumbering anything and everything else, filling the place to its carrying capacity with perpetually horny raccoon dogs. For a place based on a culture which has a yokai for anything and everything, it's very telling when a single species constitutes ~35-40% of the population.

But it's simply not enough to sit on land physically and call it a day. Pay attention to what all three religious authorities say -- you have to bind yourself metaphysically to it and garner all the minor local kami to your side. This is a process that takes time, and that means multiple generations, and frankly is only achievable by a people who will insanely work themselves to death for a payoff that will never happen in their lifetimes. Only when you have convinced the spirits of the forest and fjords that you belong here do you actually have the ability to call the land yours.

The arcology itself only holds about a hundred families; not that much more than a big apartment building. It's implied that there are smaller camps and settlements dotted around where no one will see them, mostly centered about prospecting.

 

[Evil]

NGL, I laughed at this.

Can't say that I blame you, I tried copying and pasting from the wiki and for some reason my keyboard decided it doesn't like accents. Which is odd because I can add Irish accents such á é í ó ú.

And of course you're right, they aren't rejects, that's poor word choice on my part. But I imagine that many would certainly be considered undesirables in the Imperial Court, in some way, shape or form. Some might be sent out to the colony as a necessity, such as Miko and Mai, but as you've said, the colony was also a dumping ground for people you wanted to be rid of or at least didn't want to see.

 

[ohatsu]

There is a lot to unpack here when it comes to kitsune. Tobs is doing a fantastical job here( if I may say so myself despite my lack of knowlodge of writing, plot and character develoment and history) depicting his version of the japanese.
As some pointed out, the kitsune you meet are oddballs. Misfits, descendants of disgrace and shame, disabled, etc. All packed together and thrown into a foreign land working a lot for the mainland without receiving any recognition in return while suffering from being labelled monsters by the natives of the land they live on, add in the fact many are part of a second+ generation of dyaspora of a culture that is very intolerant of those who are different and you get our lovely fluff balls here. It does not help that the player gets certain privillages despite being a barbarian. The following piece from Kinu's A daugther's desire story shows that:

"They're that upset?"


Komari cackled, a twinkle in the old kitsune's eye. "Oh, they are. No one dares to come out and say that they think Lord Keros made a bad decision, but they're all fuming that our patron god chose a filthy foreigner to be his champion instead of one of them. Hopefully my explanation of the matter should clear things up, or at least soften the blow — that, and the fact that Kiyoko Ōtomo's now his wife-consort. Wait, that might actually make things worse. Ha!"


"How's Nakano taking it?"


She wrung her hands and sighed. "He's gone through three jars of sake in as many days, and has produced a mountain of bad poetry to show for it. Such a hopeless romantic."
Many stray away from their motherculture but the shadow still looms over them, Kohaku is a great example of this, while others cling to it as much they can, like Nakano. Everyone finds a way to cope with the situation. Being a third generation japanese-brazillian, I say it sucks. I live in Japan and it sucks, I used to have dreams of becoming part of the populace, and still do to some extent, but I now know this will never happen, I don't think I'll ever get this place and stop being seen as just the ''foreinger''. I have three japanese grandparents, two born in Brazil to japanese immigrants and one who came in his seveteens straight from Okinawa, yes I didn't grow up in a colony like second generation folks did, my dad who is the son of two of my japanese grandparents( including the one from Okinawa) spent most of my childhood working in Japan, so as a result only now almost a decade of living in Japan is that I'm getting a bit deeper into it's society and it hurts. I don't really want to be japanese anymore, I know it's silly to try to be something I'm not but it still hurts, I know there's some much bullshit in this society that being a foreinger is actually good because at least you won't be judged by the same measure they judged themselves, but it still hurts, I have seen family members hopelessly worshiping Japan only to hurts themselves in the end, but it still hurts godamnit, I know some who grew up here or that manage to adapt a lot better to the culture but their image in the eyes of natives isn't that much better, but still hurts.
Many of my roots come from this place and I can't deny having a certain affection for it and it's people, no matter how bad I'm treated here, reminded how I'm nothing more than a guest at best and an ignorant outsider at worst, I will still hold some warm feelings for this country. Now I have the luxury of coming back home, I just need to work a little more. While racism and i bigotry are things there, I know for certain that I will be seen in a better light than here and that is a relief, one the kitsune of the frostwoods don't have, I can only imagine how much more their lives suck than mine.
Tobs wrote something here that at least for me, hits home in a lot of places, specially since I'm so enamoured with his characters. They are so compelling and so flawed it's sad and great at the same time, it tears me apart because I want them to have happy lives but that would sacrifice the more realistic approach Tobs is taking here in a favor of a more generic fairytale story.
Young Inari wants to get marriage as soon as possible to escape Kiyoko. While she is happy with the way she choose to live, her relationship with her mother is just pitiful and I don't neither really understands how and when things turned sour for them. While I haven't finished reading A daughter's desire and skipped a few parts, cuz I love both Kiyoko and Kinu and smut content for the latter makes me unconfortable, I think it further shows how fed Kinu is and how much she wants out crushes my heart, Kiyoko and the PC abandoning their family to play hero just makes it worse. Hime is liked by her mother but is already showing signs what afflicts her, the pressure of her lieage, they way she has to behave, to hide her trueself.
This is my take on the kitsune, obviously there is a LOT of personal feelings here so Tobs forgive me if I said some major bullshit here but yeah. Don't to bothered by them treating you poorly, sure it sucks but focusing on it won't help much if at all. Besides it's not like they made their life object to persecute you, also considering how much the world decayed after the Godswar, they aren't exactly wrong calling outsiders barbarians, orcs, harpies and many other races aren't exactly thornless flowers.

 

[The Observer]

-Snip-

The colonial diaspora loves Kinu, especially Hime Kinu; they desperately adore her because they believe that here is someone who might finally garner them some sense of respectability despite her mother having formally abdicated. Her white fur is proof positive of being of divine lineage; she is their colonial princess, the hope that they might finally be able to be recognised as just another province.

One can only wonder if it will be an empty, false hope.

 

[Maximilian]

Pay attention to what all three religious authorities say

That would do it, I have a massive bias of ignoring religion as I always jump to the conclusion it is just a power play of the upper class trying to control the masses. I forget people actually have faith, and in games gods are 100% provable. That's my bad.

 

[ohatsu]

The colonial diaspora loves Kinu, especially Hime Kinu; they desperately adore her because they believe that here is someone who might finally garner them some sense of respectability despite her mother having formally abdicated. Her white fur is proof positive of being of divine lineage; she is their colonial princess, the hope that they might finally be able to be recognised as just another province.

One can only wonder if it will be an empty, false hope.

I do not know what you have in mind but if I were to guess, she is going to have one hell of a let down. Unless something really big happens, the Throne won't give anymore support and respect to the colonies than they already do and Hime might find that all the stress she is putting on herself, thanks to her mother's teachings and traditionalistic views, will end up being all but pointless. It is all Kiyoko knew in life but still doesn't change the fact that the way she brought Kinu up doesn't exactly fit the reality they live in. Hime does seen somewhat awre of this as she tells the player that the colonies view in her something she is not exactly, she also seems to hide the resentment she feels from the PC but that might just be me talking. Maybe it's cuz I didn't grew up a formal, polite society but I think Hime isn't very sincere at all, not that she hates the PC and lie about everything, but like a good, respectful daughter should, she doesn't talk back to her dad.
I love what you are doing but damn, the emotional stabbings are relentless.

 

[The Observer]

I love what you are doing but damn, the emotional stabbings are relentless.

 

[ohatsu]

You feed on salt like the kitsune feed on chi don’t you? Lmao

 

[Shura]

I do not know what you have in mind but if I were to guess, she is going to have one hell of a let down. Unless something really big happens, the Throne won't give anymore support and respect to the colonies than they already do and Hime might find that all the stress she is putting on herself, thanks to her mother's teachings and traditionalistic views, will end up being all but pointless. It is all Kiyoko knew in life but still doesn't change the fact that the way she brought Kinu up doesn't exactly fit the reality they live in. Hime does seen somewhat awre of this as she tells the player that the colonies view in her something she is not exactly, she also seems to hide the resentment she feels from the PC but that might just be me talking. Maybe it's cuz I didn't grew up a formal, polite society but I think Hime isn't very sincere at all, not that she hates the PC and lie about everything, but like a good, respectful daughter should, she doesn't talk back to her dad.
I love what you are doing but damn, the emotional stabbings are relentless.

Eh, speaking as someone raised in an Asian household, I wouldn’t say Hime isn’t sincere because you can genuinely feel what you say, even if it isn’t the whole truth (I know I am completely incapable of saying something I don’t at least feel in the moment). Obviously she’s not outspoken like Inari (who is pretty tactless a lot, tbh), but at the same time, she does know how to implicitly get a point across. Also, there is a dialogue where she actually gets very fired up over Nakano when PC points out his tragedy is at least partly of his own making. I have my days where I’m Hime and others where I’m Inari, so I relate heavily to both of them. But I’m no less sincere about my feelings on a Hime day than an Inari day.

I also wouldn’t say she’s miserable like someone else said earlier. Just because Inari is openly resentful doesn’t mean Hime feels the same way. In fact, considering how opposite the two of them are, it makes sense. Hime is super empathetic so she’s open-minded to people for better or worse. Inari is very willful so she’d stick to her guns for better or worse as well.

For that same reason, I wouldn’t say Inari is happy either; self-imposed isolation doesn’t seem much better than overt abnegation. Inari lives true to herself alright, but at the cost of being painfully lonely because almost no one can stand to be around her and she can’t stand talking to most people.

This is what I appreciate about how Tobs wrote the two Kinus; they’re complete opposite extremes with opposite flaws and opposite issues. But they both have their strengths as well, with plenty of overlap.

I don’t understand why there’s an implication that Hime isn’t hard-working because Komari’s dialogue about her also paint her as very diligent; just more focused on administration as opposed to fieldwork.

In any case, I’m pretty sure both Kinus suffer from kitsune society regardless, one from the burdens and the other from isolation. Maybe from a purely Western perspective, Inari route seems like the “right” route. But to an Asian American with more Asian leanings in terms of how I was brought up (my Inari tendencies were more recent additions to my adult life after experiencing a few mental and emotional collapses), I draw a lot of comfort from Hime. I’m probably still hardwired to abnegate for the sake of harmony, but I don’t really see the problem with that as long as you understand your own limits.

Call me fucked up, but I find it disheartening when people think Hime is somehow the worse route. I mean, to be fair, I initially thought so as well because of the old phrasings (and the old art made her look like an obnoxious prat, which ironically is more an Inari thing in the final product). But Tobs himself has stated there isn’t a right or wrong route; it really comes down to which extreme you’re more inclined to. Is it better for Kinu to be a people-pleaser to a fault or stubborn to a fault?

Personally, I’d say neither and I think most people here think so too. But that’s unfortunately not an option because Tobs wants to torture us with a tough decision, and that would be the obvious right answer. So when it really comes down to it, I feel like Hime at least has a safety net to fall back on because she’s more willing to seek help when she needs it (eventually anyway because she doesn’t want to be a burden to others). Inari ironically has the worse of Not-Asian culture in that she won’t seek help even if she needs it and will stubbornly try to power through and/or deny there’s a problem. Which is actually why I compare her and Nakano a lot. They are both victims of tragedies partly of their own making and they refuse to acknowledge any other view but what they believe is right.

Actually, any way you spin it, the Kinus are products of their own home culture. Hime is just the more obvious one because she embraced her heritage as opposed to outright rejecting it. But Inari is definitely messed up as well, both from taking the “selfish” path and from unwittingly adopting the “fix your own problems, don’t dump them on someone else” attitude. Ironically, Inari is more like Kiyoko than Hime; just in reverse. It even gets remarked on in one of her dialogues, much to her chagrin.

I am going to end my half-jumbled ramble by saying that I understand the feeling of thinking you have to be everyone’s rock all the time and meet/exceed all expectations. It’s bitten me in the ass too many times, and I only finally learned to say “no” when I was hit by a very painful betrayal. But I still wouldn’t ever say it’s “wrong” or that I was “miserable” to be that person. I wasn’t always happy for sure, but I still take joy in bringing others joy or even just easing their burdens. In the same vein, I believe Hime is genuinely happy to look after everyone and sincere in her words.

Neither Hime nor Inari regret their paths, so I am of the firm opinion that while they may have hardships, they’ll both find balance and happiness in the end.

Also, Tobs, you’re really trying to make us sweat on Kinu being the People’s Princess thing, aren’t you?