Narrative Complaint

Discussion in 'Trials in Tainted Space' started by Sparks, Oct 6, 2018.

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  1. Sparks

    Sparks Member

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    Just a bit of a nitpick on some scenes you can run into while playing. I can build my character to be a walking tank with max physique, max tone, be wearing power armor and using a warden shield and sumorian hammer. I can still have someone knock me out because a scene demands it. Even with max reflexes and Steele even saying they know they're walking into a situation where this will probably happen. It just bugs me that we're supposed to be a genetically modified space badass who has survived much worse than some asshole with a club and we can't just shrug it off through at least adrenaline.
     
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  2. DrunkZombie

    DrunkZombie Well-Known Member

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    Hahahahaha! A somewhat common complaint and one few will answer. A, there are many different writers that contribute to the game, so you are at the mercy of each ones whim. B, what others will say is, if you don't like the way something is written, avoid it. There are generally warnings about something railroading you a certain way.
     
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  3. Sparks

    Sparks Member

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    I know both of these, what annoyed me enough to make the post is Akane. I didn't remember she even existed until I got knocked out at the end of her event chain and now she's just there and I can't even do anything about it. Kinda makes me miss the days of CoC when I could just outright kill demons for being awful. Can't even kill damn pirates.
     
  4. null_blank

    null_blank Well-Known Member

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    The solution to this is to give characters the choice of getting knocked out and making them miss the story hook if they should choose so. That way the player can can retain their power fantasy.
     
  5. Lkynmbr24

    Lkynmbr24 Well-Known Member
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    Goodness gracious, this is quite literally like... The 3rd or 4th time I've heard this complaint this week alone through here and on the discord, and I don't get to frequent both as often recently. o_O

    Again, Steele isn't an all-powerful being out to destroy shit on a whim. He's just another rusher who happens to be a very well-off one, and depending how you play, has done some amazing feats, but they're not invincible. There's some situations that even writers warn you (and even thinking from a logical standpoint) "Trap is here. You won't probably won't like this." What do you think will happen? This Simpson's clip kinda personifies those "power fantasy" players perfectly in my eyes lol. (Pretend Homer Simpson is the apparent all-powerful PC and pretend Grimey is the PC in reality. :p) Not coming at the OP personally, but people who have this mindset I find it very silly.

     
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  6. Sparks

    Sparks Member

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    There are plenty of situations where you go into what would be a dangerous, deadly, or game ending situation and can easily fight or talk your way out of it with no downsides. Hell one could argue all the probes are exactly this. Even in Zheng Shi. No normal or even well off rusher would think it's a sane idea to invade a pirate base and start fucking shit up. I don't want to be OP, I just don't want the inconsistency of being able to hold my ground from fire from the forge hounds minigun or even an airship in the Valden quest, but then turn around and get bonked on the head and become a fragile puppy.
     
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  7. zero point sixty

    zero point sixty Well-Known Member

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    The only serious offender in this that stands out to me is the Shizuya content, which I suppose is pretty clearly foreshadowed. I do wish there was some way to keep it from triggering every other time you fly somewhere though.
     
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  8. noscope god

    noscope god Well-Known Member

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    agreed, I did akanes quest in hopes of fighting her and shutting down her operation... sike suddenly after facing a bunch of her goons, I just want to fuck her and do quest for her
     
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  9. Linarahn

    Linarahn Well-Known Member

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    Shizuya is at least pretty civil about it. And the final payoff (the shock gear) is a treat, at least in my book. I tend to interpret the scene as Steele just not risking the cockpit interior in a fight, but I get where you're coming from.
     
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  10. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Seriously though, I hate this in all games. Steele beats mercenaries, pirates, a Dread Lord, a castle full of super-strong bug people, giant robots, and an actual dragon, by themselves, and then is put on their ass by some random thug or police officer "because story".
     
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  11. null_blank

    null_blank Well-Known Member

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    Eh. Last encoutner with Akane's ninjas is a tougher fight than the fight with Petra. They certainly aren't just randos.
     
  12. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know, but this is still annoying.
     
  13. QuietCoyote

    QuietCoyote Well-Known Member

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    you are not some walking god, or some all-powerful messiah.
    the most you are is a Jason Bourne.
    sure, you can outwit and out-muscle a couple situations, but you're not the be-all end-all force.
    take yourself down a peg before continuing.
     
  14. Linarahn

    Linarahn Well-Known Member

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    Iiiii don't know. Outperforming a goddamn psychic dragon sounds pretty unachievable for most people on foot, at least without some seriously heavy fire support.
    And waltzing into a hostile pirate den on your own or with just a Siegwulfe still sounds like a royally stupid idea Steele somehow survives. It'd make more sense if you could actually befriend them or have the pirates neutral toward you after getting past the bouncer. That's what he's there for, yeah?
     
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  15. William.

    William. Well-Known Member
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    Dragons are defeated in a variety of ways in a variety of RPGs. In TiTS case it just gets lumped in with everything else. Look at Dragon Age for a quick off the top of my head example, where you face multiple dragons as a bunch of silly people with big sharp sticks and maybe a mage.

    You're also missing the point about Zheng Shi. Urbolg is not affiliated with the gangs, he's an Independent and he has your interests in heart in his own way.

    More than that, Zheng Shi is not inhabited solely by the five top gangs who run the place, it's a haven for independent pirates and mercenaries as well, including Dane. It's easy for the player to slip in amongst them. You can also see that in the dialogue presented by the 'Punk Security Operatives who guard the Sidewinder, they make it abundantly clear you are not allowed up there without a boss' say so.

    Incoming rats also say as much, the PC is unaffiliated and that means they're allowed to target you/shake you down.
     
  16. Linarahn

    Linarahn Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't make the whole ordeal any less dumb on Steele's part. In fact, I'd argue that makes it worse. Especially without a pirate to not just tell you the password, but to vouch for you. But maybe that'll change if joinable factions come into play?

    Eh, perhaps it'll make more sense once Zheng Shi is finished.
     
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  17. Troller

    Troller Active Member

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    Do you really think that Steele is only one who beated Frosty? Even in game it stated that she lost to different ppl, and Steele just the only one who won 3 times and lost for whatever reason you made up for yourself. Also even badass can be surprised,ambushed, outnumbered and outgunned (just like with Azras quest on Tarkus).
     
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  18. SpicyShino

    SpicyShino Well-Known Member

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    I know "power fantasy" is a term that's easy to throw around when talking about gaming, but maybe the true problem is that scenes like that go completely against the player's sense of progression.

    I'm pretty sure players who've spent the last year min-maxing their super-stealth, max evasion Smugglers feel less invested in the story when their character gets suddenly jumped in a scenario they're literally made for stat-wise. I know it'd probably be a pain in the ass to re-write every scene to account for minute stat differences, but maybe having an alternate scene for characters with high reflexes would make the scene more believable.
     
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  19. B

    B Well-Known Member
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    I don't really have an input on this discussion about Steele's status as a god being at the whimsy of the writers, but, to be fair...
    Steele is, in Frosty's words, the first and only person to ever beat her in a fight.
     
  20. Alecsandr

    Alecsandr Well-Known Member

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    at least shizuya's is realistic yeah your ship got ambushed and torn to shreds by a ship a couple of factors bigger, they boarded you with your typical breaching tactics and you're knocked on your ass and bested, by a much larger, more experienced, better equipped mercenary group. all of that makes sense.

    now take the host shukuchi 'problems' 'cause this isn't just a problem with akane. initial startup they're cornered and you can chase them down, you keep up and they get away using the mysterious mcguffin mask, next encounter you have the same shit play out only this time instead of chasing you followed from a distance with the same results, third encounter ssdd, except this time you get exposition from some rando npc who's being leaned on, fourth encounter you fight and if you win same bullshit (steele has caught on but somehow remains unable to or too inept to do something about this perfect stealth that no one else knows how to achieve), final encounter you walk into an obvious trap (most of us are prepared, and just going to see if we can beat the answers out of someone) and you get clubbed over the head after agreeing to be blindfolded (because steele is somehow that fucking stupid) and then get given the choice of death, dishonor in two flavors money or blood, or becoming someone's bitch with no idea who this person is at all before agreeing.

    do you see how nonsensical the second one is?

    i don't want to break soandso's balls, because i love mirrin, maike, and shizuya, but making it to where we get bested because OUR character is acting in a way that is uncharacteristically stupid whilst not giving any laudable excuse or even an exposition on the track record of the organization to justify their ridiculous ex-machina abilities is bad writing and i don't mean that as a jab at soandso it happens in movies and tv shows all the damned time.

    if the host shukuchi ever does get edited or re written i'd like to see us get put into more plausible situations. we chase down the first guy ask them a few questions turn them over, bam guys out due to bribery and corruption of the station authority. second encounter after taking care of business guy notices you following him you either fight or lie, back up comes you've got shots peppering you from one side distracting you from the initial threat who then proceeds to book it into the jungle while you aren't looking but not before pinging you with a micro tracker like your dick cousin. third encounter should play out about the same (mask and flashbangs included) albeit with more questioning the guys you knock the snot out of and without that lowering your weapons because of honor bs. final encounter you've made it well aware you're not going to be dissuaded from your investigations a representative emails you and offers to chat you agree and meet (you can either stop here after having your questions answered, or you can continue listing one of many possible reasons) if you continue you get drugged either by crafty sleight of hand or a dart to the neck/ass/forehead (this would be the obvious danger we'd put ourselves in but it would be justifiable and wouldn't require us to be inept ) at this point you you meet akane and you can submit, resist (break free and run), or provoke them into a fight with no winners (people like this tend to be sore losers who blow everyone the fuck up including themselves). that flow of events would make sense allow players to fully complete the quest, unlock or skip akane, or game over themselves in a realistic way. along the way you could explore the host's history, how they get their gear, why they operate as mostly a protection racket instead of being pirates, what their relations are with other criminal gangs etc... doing it that way makes it to where steele doesn't have to be inept to get to akane, you don't have to abuse the ex-machina mask, and can explain away the gang's power using its history and current position. but in the end it's just my opinion and it's not my content so i really don't have a say beyond that
     
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  21. Alecsandr

    Alecsandr Well-Known Member

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    so wait is that a hint that big bara daddy dane is gonna get his expac from zeng shi, cause i thought he was gated behind ship mechanics like a few other crewmembers
     
  22. MistyBirb

    MistyBirb Harpy Princess
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    This is a common thing in a lot of games. Most games do it at some point, really.

    It's literally ludonarrative dissonance in its purest form. But balancing "letting players have fun" (which is what power fantasies are really about unless you're actually an unhinged psychopath: fun escapism) and "pushing players through a series of predetermined holes in the wall to tell a story" is not easy even for dev teams with project managers and writers that are all on the same page, let alone a scatterbrained and largely collaborative effort like TiTS.

    Fen has been aware of this for some time now (from Discord):
    But he's also not going to hold a gun to writers' heads and force them to rewrite stuff that still has merit as porn despite questionable elements of the content leading up to the porn.

    You can hold the opinion that perhaps Fen should crack down on these things and play content manager more than he does, but it's a little late to try and add consistency to TiTS at this point. That's the nature of this kind of collaboration. Fen has seemingly decided that trading tone/lore/character consistency for more variety and content is the move he wants to make, and while that does damage TiTS' integrity as a cohesive game to an extent, it also vastly increases its potential fetish appeal and greatly increases community interaction with the project, both of which are very important for a porn game

    TiTS "greatest hits" list includes a lot of volunteer content. A lot. Allowing that kind of huge outside contribution inevitably comes with a cost. In this instance, it's consistency.

    The only recourse as a player is to be aware of this fact, and not take TiTS so seriously. Your immersion will be broken. Honestly it should have been broken many times over leading up to any of the content that causes these kinds of issues to begin with. TiTS is absurd. At this point it's kind of a "fetish buffet," with huge numbers of players using the save editor to bypass half or more of the game's mechanics and progression and just skip to what they want to see, which is the porn.

    Honestly, Fen seems to put too much game into his projects, both TiTS and CoC. Either too much or not enough. Both are absurd and inconsistent narratives with outlandish characters trying to dress themselves up as semi-serious RPG's, and I'm not entirely certain the balance that has been struck is ideal. This is not to denigrate Fen's attempts at "legitimizing" his games, but more an observation that, if he wants to do it, maybe he does need to devote a bit more of his focus to smoothing out the wrinkles in the narrative and tone of the game's content. Doing so would require a huge amount of oversight and very rigorous submission standards, though, standards that many volunteers likely wouldn't want to deal with at all, so it's a tough situation to be in. I don't really know if there's a winning move that wouldn't just piss more people off...

    This is kind of a ramble. TL;DR this shit's gonna happen unless Fen either stops being a coder and writer and instead spends all of his time vetting and editing submitted content, or hires someone to do that for him. I don't see either of those happening any time soon, though.
     
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  23. ScarletteKnight

    ScarletteKnight Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm fine with this.

    Just imagine if you proc Shizuya after getting a capital ship though.
     
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  24. Unoriginal Name.404

    Unoriginal Name.404 Well-Known Member

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    This is the reason why i'm not going to touch any of the Akane stuff with a ten foot pole on my current save. At least with the Shizuya content Steele is not overly stupid for the sake of the plot(People being an idiot, stupid or dumb for the sake of the plot/story, is one of the things that can really grind my gears, it's also one of the many reasons why i have had a hard time enjoying volume 4 and 5 of RWBY)
     
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  25. Troller

    Troller Active Member

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    Ups, my bad. Now gonna go beat the dragon in submission again and re-read the stuff.
     
  26. SoAndSo

    SoAndSo Well-Known Member
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    Just gonna say that this is the only thing that I've got a problem with because that's not my character.
     
  27. Violent_Peace

    Violent_Peace Well-Known Member

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    After reading a number of these post it all just reminds me of the grenade launcher vs wooden door from videogames.

    You have a grenade launcher that will turn enemies into giblets and zombies as well but the second you use it on a normal wooden door it's like the door is a bank vault you fired a grenade at and nothing is getting in it.

    But yeah it's pretty stupid to have a dark souls character, just some naked fuck with a stick, one shot you in a scene because story, but it's also kinda funny even though it's completely retarded.

    >Be 7ft
    >wear power armor
    >have badass shield that protects over 800 damage
    >Gets knocked out by some 5ft1 dude with a stick

    It's like mass effect where the second a cutscene comes up everyone forgets about shields and one dude gets shot in the chest and his badass combat hardsuit did shit all to protect him.
     
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  28. sumgai

    sumgai Well-Known Member

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    Other Frostwyrms have lost. Since we don't know how strong they were or one on one fights or group attacks, all that can be said is that Frosty is a tough cookie.
     
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  29. Primename

    Primename Well-Known Member

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    I can't tell if this post is serious or not...
     
  30. SoAndSo

    SoAndSo Well-Known Member
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    9001% cereal
     
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