Kas's Company and Allies suck at being Generals

[Tarnakus]

Let's not go there, they made it with a modicum of embellishment to should off their culture, history, beliefs and glory as a nation. These guys have a major influence that spans 700+ years. There is no downplaying them, brov.

If someone is downplaying history of Greece is you here. 700 years is only a small fraction of it (not even Ancient Greece). More so it shows your lack of history knowledge despite starting historical argumentation.

Trojan War took place in around 1200 BC in period called Greek Bronze Age (it is not Ancient Greece). Homer (if) lived around 700 BC in period called Ancient Greece.

In between was "small" event called Bronze Age Collapse which hit Greece hard to point where they lost they ability to write and read. Greeks reinvented the alphabet which derivates from Phoenicians. Where the original ones (Linear A and Linear B) where completely forgotten. Currently we are were able to decipher only the Linear B.

So yes I have huge "doubts" about how historically accurate Homer was - or even could be 500 years later taking consideration almost total destruction of Greece in between.

Illiad is effect of playing Chinese whispers - times 500 years spiced up by Polis propaganda - it is not "modicum of embellishment" - it's a myth on canvas of most likely historical event - important for Greece and even whole world to certain degree - but surely not historical accurate.

 

[Melancholy Man]

He's well aware of how she uses him, but he's still somewhere between believing he can change her and trying to make her serve him. There's like two articles on it in the codex.

"At the very least, I do not believe she has discovered the work we are doing in the Sorran Temple and the Great Rift. There, my flock's devotion remains focused, undistracted. Perhaps I can use their successes to show the Dark Lady the error of her ways! That they are useful tools, if only She can give them direction and care! If She were to offer up not just Her body but Her brilliant mind as well, then we would become unstoppable." - from the first article you get when you drive him back from Centaur village, this is when the guy thought it was the right Demon he was worshipping. I'd quote the second bit from the second verse but he essentially lost faith and is acting in his own interests.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Kas's weakness is her arrogance, as is so often the case with big bad's. It's all a game to her, and she knows she's going to win by default. By attrition.
This is a woman who restored a warp gate and created a race of pseudo-draconic supersoldiers. She's not dumb or incompetent, she's just so far above everything she can't see it as a threat.

That and she's constantly working on an additional goal during major plot events; events at Ice Palace corrupting the city and opening a portal, corrupting the forest, locking it down to by her time to corrupt the said elf city and create drugs using Hornets (to I assume to use on the elves).

 

[Melancholy Man]

If someone is downplaying history of Greece is you here. 700 years is only a small fraction of it (not even Ancient Greece). More so it shows your lack of history knowledge despite starting historical argumentation.

Trojan War took place in around 1200 BC in period called Greek Bronze Age (it is not Ancient Greece). Homer (if) lived around 700 BC in period called Ancient Greece.

In between was "small" event called Bronze Age Collapse which hit Greece hard to point where they lost they ability to write and read. Greeks reinvented the alphabet which derivates from Phoenicians. Where the original ones (Linear A and Linear B) where completely forgotten. Currently we are were able to decipher only the Linear B.

So yes I have huge "doubts" about how historically accurate Homer was - or even could be 500 years later taking consideration almost total destruction of Greece in between.

Illiad is effect of playing Chinese whispers - times 500 years spiced up by Polis propaganda - it is not "modicum of embellishment" - it's a myth on canvas of most likely historical event - important for Greece and even whole world to certain degree - but surely not historical accurate.

Not going to fight you on history, the various dates, and whether something can be historically accurate are not, or how each Civ chose to embellish their history using their cultural beliefs. I used those as examples of interesting things to take inspiration from for a sensible strategy that makes sense to complement the story.

 

[Kingu2]

And? So what if he's using Kas's name to get shit done? That's been his mo since the start and What do you mean by only three? If he has bodies to throw on a situation then that's a resource for him to use. I don't get where you going with this point.

My point is that he's not any more organized, oppurtunistic, or influencial than he was before. The only reason he has the oppurtunities that he does now is entirely because of Kas. He's not just using her name he's leeching off of her and the things that she's doing. Without her he is nothing more than a crazy ass cult leader.

Did we read the same story? It's fairly obvious they didn't know we were storming them until we reached their shores. And let's follow your logic, let's say she did know; why not try to get more aid from her allies? She's lucid enough to ask for help with starting her fetish, thinking up tricky ways to smuggle weapons down to Khor'minos, and still charming that even tho Gytha saw how she was still willing to bend the knee.

I'm not sure but if we did you clearly weren't paying attention. Why would Alissa call for help when she clearly thought she could beat you easily?
The whole smuggling thing is largely being operated by Tollus. To say Alissa helped in any capicity beyond finding the forge is pure assumption.
And her finding dumbasses willing to subject themselves to her fetishes and "leadership" is irrelevent to the question of how competent she is. every interaction with her up to now has shown her being Arrogant, lazy and stupidly prideful. She was never competent.

Now with all that said what is your point exactly? Do you think they're competent or incompetent? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

[Animefan666]

What do you mean by this? Are the things I said about Tollus and company not true? Explain brov.

She literally spits her entire backstory at us that is not all that she is, the first part is true, she likes to watch the show.

Calling a few corrupted sex demons "generals" doesn't make them generals. Think about it, everywhere she went, she corrupted someone and then just let them run rampant. No plan, no orders. Just chaos. Nothing she's done has achieved anything towards conquest. If conquest was the goal, then she would've shored up the defenses. Instead, she just moved on to the next thing. There is no actual command structure.

 

[Boshe]

"At the very least, I do not believe she has discovered the work we are doing in the Sorran Temple and the Great Rift. There, my flock's devotion remains focused, undistracted. Perhaps I can use their successes to show the Dark Lady the error of her ways! That they are useful tools, if only She can give them direction and care! If She were to offer up not just Her body but Her brilliant mind as well, then we would become unstoppable." - from the first article you get when you drive him back from Centaur village, this is when the guy thought it was the right Demon he was worshipping. I'd quote the second bit from the second verse but he essentially lost faith and is acting in his own interests.

I don't see how this goes against with what I've said before. He was pursuing his own interests from before the day of Gweyr's bout of epic trollage, it's just that he thought and still thinks, for good reasons, that Kasyrra's power is needed to attain them. It's just that now he's disappointed in her not doing what he wanted her to do. To that extent he attempted worshipping her to placate her first, controlling her mind directly and now manipulating her into dropping her baby rabies-induced obsession over some catgirl front tail by directly offing the said catgirl, which, mind you, are all plans that could've possibly worked if not for that blasted Champ.

 

[Melancholy Man]

The whole smuggling thing is largely being operated by Tollus. To say Alissa helped in any capicity beyond finding the forge is pure assumption.

One throw-away line that mentions that he's excepting the shipment doesn't mean he's in charge of the operation, just that he's expecting goods. We can assume she's in charge of it because she occupies the forge lands, she has a golem that does the work for her and calls it her land, so...??? But fair point he was going to get weapons from her, so we can assume they were scratching each other's backs. I'll take that L

Now with all that said what is your point exactly? Do you think they're competent or incompetent? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

What I'm looking for is allies behaving like allies, I got no problems with uneasy alliances but how they do things has to be in accordance with how each character is portrayed.

Alissa bullying Ryn doesn't prove she thought she could beat us easily, she didn't even know we were on her island until we were there.
Edit: So from another perspective maybe she thought she didn't need the help but would be better to have her reject aid or pay no mind to the message sent by BK if that is the case.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Calling a few corrupted sex demons "generals" doesn't make them generals. Think about it, everywhere she went, she corrupted someone and then just let them run rampant. No plan, no orders. Just chaos. Nothing she's done has achieved anything towards conquest. If conquest was the goal, then she would've shored up the defenses. Instead, she just moved on to the next thing. There is no actual command structure.

Brov, What???

 

[Melancholy Man]

I don't see how this goes against with what I've said before. He was pursuing his own interests from before the day of Gweyr's bout of epic trollage, it's just that he thought and still thinks, for good reasons, that Kasyrra's power is needed to attain them. It's just that now he's disappointed in her not doing what he wanted her to do. To that extent he attempted worshipping her to placate her first, controlling her mind directly and now manipulating her into dropping her baby rabies-induced obsession over some catgirl front tail by directly offing the said catgirl, which, mind you, are all plans that could've possibly worked if not for that blasted Champ

Remember there is a second half where he realizes she probably isn't the one he was after. I don't have a save where I found it because I restart frequently.

 

[Animefan666]

Brov, What???

Brilliant rebuttal. What's the name of this thread?

 

[Boshe]

Remember there is a second half where he realizes she probably isn't the one he was after. I don't have a save where I found it because I restart frequently.

It's on the wiki, I'm looking at it, I'm not seeing anything like that. Feel free to point it out to me. As is, I can only assume you're misremembering something like "If the Dark Lady's head is as full of water as I now suspect" as him completely giving up on her, but he goes to say that "If she will not bend her great might to our cause, then I will bend her to it!" in the same paragraph.

 

[Melancholy Man]

It's on the wiki, I'm looking at it, I'm not seeing anything like that. Feel free to point it out to me. As is, I can only assume you're misremembering something like "If the Dark Lady's head is as full of water as I now suspect" as him completely giving up on her, but he goes to say that "If she will not bend her great might to our cause, then I will bend her to it!" in the same paragraph.

thanks for that, so which part of him saying: "Yet it is the soul's absence that makes a demon what it is, as if the soul were a shackle binding we mere mortals to our physical cages and suppressing the power we can command! The absence of something can be just as real and valuable a thing as its presence, after all.

It's enough to make a man truly think: if the Dark Lady's true strength was unleashed by her soullessness, as was Alissa's... then whatever happened to her lethicite, to Kasyrra's crystalized soul...? If the Dark Lady cannot be bent, can her power over my followers be broken by its return?

I have dispatched the Faceless Blade to investigate. Perhaps Kasyrra's soul can be found, and if not... then perhaps that wilted, twisted thing in the Blade's own chest is the answer I seek. She is yet the most loyal of all my followers save the Gauntlet himself; surely she will see the wisdom in her own ascension if it means the Dark Lady is brought to heel and made to serve the cause, rather than bring it to ruin. She'll see." this doesn't indicate a loss of faith and if necessary enslavement to you.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Brilliant rebuttal. What's the name of this thread?

What do you call a person that is responsible for a group of ppl that are either on some military activity or something of a violent nature? It changes based on the culture and the size of the group but it is usually along the lines of leader. Whether they are competent or not has nothing to do with their title (because incompetent generals and leaders have always existed) whether they deserve that title is a different conversation.
The second thing is if you are the attacking party of conquest, especially when you can generate troops through on the move and have power that outmatches most your best move is to go for shock and awe. Destabilize the population, isolate major city-states, then pick them off; which she is doing but conquest isn't her only goal, shown throughout the story. She constantly has additional goals she grinds on while dealing with the conquest objectives, so it's not like she couldn't get shit done she just has other priorities to achieve before subjugation is complete.

 

[Animefan666]

General implies there's some semblance of command and control towards a collective goal. As I said before, there is no command structure. At best, they amount to a few hordes acting on pure instinct, left to their own devices.

 

[Boshe]

loss of faith

Is different from

he realizes she probably isn't the one he was after

as this is still the same person that was capable of shaking up the sleeping Marches, the same person that told him of other worlds and the same person that prolonged his life and likely saved Leold's through regular exchanges of soul juice for his continued service of attempting to free her.

You seem to forget your own point here. Whether his awe of her was also marked by a measure of genuine worship is irrelevant, they were allies of convenience. Both of them saw her coming to Savarra to be ultimately beneficial to their own goals, but where she is glad to be done with Mareth and get a nice jumpstart on troops and local currency from the loser that helped her, he lost significant resources and numbers of his cult to her while receiving a grand total of none in the demonic overlord that he believed shared his goals, or was led to believe by her, department. To him she is no longer convenient, it's just that he doesn't believe he can achieve his goals without her power. Hence the pussyfooting around: the attempts to appease her, to mind control her and to beat her into submission/kill someone she cares about.

If they are not acting like allies "should", as you said, then that's basically because they are not really allies. They have drastically different goals and dynamics of power. At this point, he feeds her troops and even those of Alyssa because he's a pushover and his grasp over his cult is weaker than that of Kasyrra, not because he wants to do it or thinks it is in his best interests.

 

[Tarnakus]

Not going to fight you on history, the various dates, and whether something can be historically accurate are not, or how each Civ chose to embellish their history using their cultural beliefs. I used those as examples of interesting things to take inspiration from for a sensible strategy that makes sense to complement the story.

You really have no idea about what you are writing. More so you are not even able to admit to your own mistake.

I will write this in a simple sentence as you didn't understand my previous post: Homeric depiction of Trojan War is 99% fiction and 1% of facts. The Facts: Ilios existed and they had some quarrel with Mycenaeans - which could range from angry letters sending to full blown war. Secondary source we found - Hittites post-war letter suggest it was a lot smaller in scope and the city itself survived it (Tawagalawa letter).

One small point as you clearly don't know this - Mycenaean civilization as surely it had impact on Ancient Greeks and are considered Proto-Greeks - it is not the same culture.

For a second I will pretend thou it is historical and depicts "sensible strategy".
Any siege that last longer than couple of months in pre modern times - already shows utter incompetence of attackers. If you are not able to take city you should leave. The only reason such long siege can happen is if your intent is to block the city and not really take it, but to continue to some more valued target with safe back. This do not apply here.

That said we will see the "sensible" Odysseus winning tactic:
1. Put soldiers into wooden horse.
2. Leave one guy to convince enemies with funny sacrifice story.
3. Leave over horizon to not be visible.
4. Somehow see the signal from city to attack (still being over the horizon or trying not to be seen).
5. Profit.

What needs to happen for this to succeed:
1. The guy left needs to be charisma Chad to somehow convince your enemies that you left kettle on fire and needed instantly to go back home - and they surely will not sent out scouts to check his story.
2. Defenders will be gentlemens and will not torture him, lock him up or kill him on the spot - cuz after 10 years of killing each other you have nice feeling to each other.
3. They will accept your sacrifice to goddess - that they themself do not believe in (Trojans were branch of Hittites people and believe in completely different pantheon) - and for sure they will not burned it or poke it.
4. Soldiers inside horse will need to be completely silent they will not piss or shit for at least a day if not more (actually the most possible thing of this list).
5. Your enemies will not wait even a day - they will put the horse in the middle of city and go straight for party hard - otherwise your soldiers inside horse die from dehydration.
Ergo - defenders need to become morons after outplaying attackers for 10 years...

For person which complains how stupid (in military sense) and not threatening villains in CoC2 are - you have double standards towards game plot and your own examples of "sensible strategy".

the Edo period of Japan, the Three Kingdoms had a lot of information trade going on, the Vikings and their sociopolitical dynamics.

Initially I didn't want to do it - as your other "examples" are so generic and wide is hard to write anything about them.

Edo period of Japan? Really? You choose as example for sensible strategy - the most peaceful period of pre-modern Japan... - more so Kitsune are based on Japan

Three Kingdoms? What are you referring to exactly? This I'm just curious - Two most known battles are not particular display of tactical genius. More of overconfidence and mistakes of losing commanders.

The Vikings - they sociopolitical dynamics where actually outdated in comparison to western Europe - so I'm really not sure what are you imply here - more so Orcs are already based on them so...

My pov: you used random historical terms without thinking about it just to backup your initial claim.

So again:

On one hand you read this game too much - on another you do not see the obvious.

 

[Boshe]

On one hand you read this game too much - on another you do not see the obvious.

I did kinda lose my shit when someone who was trying to talk about how game design should be started shoving hbomberguy's FNV video and its points in my face.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Is different from

Yeah, they aren't the same but it's obvi that one leads to the other. It's not like I'm taking things out of context. This is literally above the passage I posted earlier:
"The Queen of Uncounted Pleasures has made it abundantly clear now that my goals and hers do not align. My followers were to be the bedrock of a new kingdom, to end this age of chaos and anarchy and restore the unbroken line from the old. But Kasyrra has no dreams of empire, no appreciation for the glory of our past nor a vision for the future that does not paint her as stark-raving mad. She speaks of lightning from the heavens, of moving pictures and machines of pleasure and war that would make even the Magisters of Estelore laugh at their absurdity.

She is insane.

Yet she is the Dark Lady I had spent long decades in service to, is she not? Her power and intelligence cannot be denied; she is the Dark Lady I promised to my followers, and the damned fools ate up every word. Now that Kasyrra is more than words and ideals, they flock mindlessly to her. I am undone by my own blind devotion, just as they are!"

I'll repeat again I'm not against uneasy allies, my favorite example of those are in the Chimera Ant Arc from HunterXHunter and the various captains and Honor Guard that show up, they just have to make decisions that make sense.

I did kinda lose my shit when someone who was trying to talk about how game design should be started shoving hbomberguy's FNV video and its points in my face.

Speak plain, whatchu mean by that?

 

[Melancholy Man]

You really have no idea about what you are writing. More so you are not even able to admit to your own mistake.

I will write this in a simple sentence as you didn't understand my previous post: Homeric depiction of Trojan War is 99% fiction and 1% of facts. The Facts: Ilios existed and they had some quarrel with Mycenaeans - which could range from angry letters sending to full blown war. Secondary source we found - Hittites post-war letter suggest it was a lot smaller in scope and the city itself survived it (Tawagalawa letter).

One small point as you clearly don't know this - Mycenaean civilization as surely it had impact on Ancient Greeks and are considered Proto-Greeks - it is not the same culture.

For a second I will pretend thou it is historical and depicts "sensible strategy".
Any siege that last longer than couple of months in pre modern times - already shows utter incompetence of attackers. If you are not able to take city you should leave. The only reason such long siege can happen is if your intent is to block the city and not really take it, but to continue to some more valued target with safe back. This do not apply here.

That said we will see the "sensible" Odysseus winning tactic:
1. Put soldiers into wooden horse.
2. Leave one guy to convince enemies with funny sacrifice story.
3. Leave over horizon to not be visible.
4. Somehow see the signal from city to attack (still being over the horizon or trying not to be seen).
5. Profit.

What needs to happen for this to succeed:
1. The guy left needs to be charisma Chad to somehow convince your enemies that you left kettle on fire and needed instantly to go back home - and they surely will not sent out scouts to check his story.
2. Defenders will be gentlemens and will not torture him, lock him up or kill him on the spot - cuz after 10 years of killing each other you have nice feeling to each other.
3. They will accept your sacrifice to goddess - that they themself do not believe in (Trojans were branch of Hittites people and believe in completely different pantheon) - and for sure they will not burned it or poke it.
4. Soldiers inside horse will need to be completely silent they will not piss or shit for at least a day if not more (actually the most possible thing of this list).
5. Your enemies will not wait even a day - they will put the horse in the middle of city and go straight for party hard - otherwise your soldiers inside horse die from dehydration.
Ergo - defenders need to become morons after outplaying attackers for 10 years...

For person which complains how stupid (in military sense) and not threatening villains in CoC2 are - you have double standards towards game plot and your own examples of "sensible strategy".

Initially I didn't want to do it - as your other "examples" are so generic and wide is hard to write anything about them.

Edo period of Japan? Really? You choose as example for sensible strategy - the most peaceful period of pre-modern Japan... - more so Kitsune are based on Japan

Three Kingdoms? What are you referring to exactly? This I'm just curious - Two most known battles are not particular display of tactical genius. More of overconfidence and mistakes of losing commanders.

The Vikings - they sociopolitical dynamics where actually outdated in comparison to western Europe - so I'm really not sure what are you imply here - more so Orcs are already based on them so...

My pov: you used random historical terms without thinking about it just to backup your initial claim.

So again:

I'm not going to get into it with you; there's a lot dates, events, ppl, places, and motivations that I'm going to have to get into my memory and google to debate you. And I'm not interested in going that deep of a tangent. They are cool examples that can be drawn on nothing more.
example: Edo Japan had the most secret political killings in Japan's history. From Swords school "gang violence" by masters to gain positions in ministry to rivals and upstarts killing each other using women. It goes deep and bolsters my argument on the espionage part.

 

[Melancholy Man]

General implies there's some semblance of command and control towards a collective goal. As I said before, there is no command structure. At best, they amount to a few hordes acting on pure instinct, left to their own devices.

meh, agree to disagree

 

[Boshe]

they just have to make decisions that make sense

But they do make sense. Kasyrra stops interacting with Tollus in any capacity as soon as she is freed and has no further use for him, merely accepting these of Tollus' cult that bought into his bullshit the hardest and are practically laying themselves down before her. Tollus is playing damage control before he loses his whole cult while trying to not antagonize Kasyrra openly as he believes he can control her. Alyssa is straight up a victim in all of this and can hardly be called their ally at all, especially considering just how quickly Kas lost her interest in her and the elves after her transformation. She even sent you to take her operation down, as a fun little cardio exercise.

Speak plain, whatchu mean by that?

FNV's plot stops functioning for anyone who knows anything about artillery, metallic fires and/or machine guns, let alone armaments exclusive to the Fallout universe, the microsecond they become aware of the facts that Caesar's tent is a mere 4-6km away from a multitude of vantage points on the NCR-occupied side of the Hoover Dam and is surrounded by the most flammable gathering of sexual deviants within or bordering Nevada excluding the Black Rock Desert. This alone makes so confidently calling the game perfect or genius plain disrespectful to the concept of perfection, the literary geniuses, past or extant, and the less so gifted within the video game industry.

 

[PalletTown]

 

[Boshe]

nerd cartoon snippet

I do feel like this is a genuine misunderstanding to clear up, there aren't that many ways to interpret the game's plot.

 

[Melancholy Man]

Gold

 

[Melancholy Man]

FNV's plot stops functioning for anyone who knows anything about artillery, metallic fires and/or machine guns, let alone armaments exclusive to the Fallout universe, the microsecond they become aware of the facts that Caesar's tent is a mere 4-6km away from a multitude of vantage points on the NCR-occupied side of the Hoover Dam and is surrounded by the most flammable gathering of sexual deviants within or bordering Nevada excluding the Black Rock Desert. This alone makes so confidently calling the game perfect or genius plain disrespectful to the concept of perfection, the literary geniuses, past or extant, and the less so gifted within the video game industry.

Really....This is what your saying denys FNV masterpiece status for you???

 

[Boshe]

Really....This is what your saying denys FNV masterpiece status for you???

The gigantic plot hole does tarnish it quite a bit, but while it makes the game noticeably not genius, what really kills it for me are the lacking RPG elements and oppressively bad gunplay and movement that no amount of mods can truly fix. Believe me, I've tried.

 

[Aelana]

The gigantic plot hole does tarnish it quite a bit, but while it makes the game noticeably not genius, what really kills it for me are the lacking RPG elements and oppressively bad gunplay and movement that no amount of mods can truly fix. Believe me, I've tried.

I'll give you the gunplay. But the 'lack of RPG' elements puzzles me. What is it lacking in your opinion?

 

[Boshe]

I'll give you the gunplay. But the 'lack of RPG' elements puzzles me. What is it lacking in your opinion?

Not a lack of RPG elements, but lacking RPG elements. At least a solid half of the perks is poorly designed and/or not balanced low/high to compensate, similar case with skills. SPECIALs apart from Luck and Intelligence (and Strength, but I don't have any respect for a carry weight system in garbage collection/gun running simulators) serve little purpose outside of perk requirements. Traits system, traits pool and existing traits themselves could've used quite a bit of work. Weapon progression is entirely out of whack and where normally poor balancing would be to blame, the issue feels so systematic with how at least three guns in different weapon archetypes could easily be considered BiS, even for hardest difficulties, and acquired for free before you are done with 1/8th of the game's intended progression. Economy is entirely, entirely fucked, which is so strange in a game that has a whole DLC all about greed and letting go berate you for being so greedy, not giving you a real option to tell them that you have tens of millions from a passive gun running grind (or just properly represent an honest ascetic point of view). There's a whole stat on your pip-boy that the game refers to in very specific cases and even lead designer's personal tweaks on it are boring. Skill and SPECIAL checks could've been a lot better, as some mods show.

Mind you, I recognize that this is all nitpicking and some of it fairly subjective (and very off-topic, so I really should stop, it's unhealthy) and that none of these issues should, in my opinion, be big enough to mar the entire experience for someone on their own. However, I've just replayed the game a couple of months ago and the game's issues are still fresh in my mind, so this giant heap of them, plus the gunplay/movement and Legion's existence not making any sense, weighing on me make for a really unpleasant experience considering how I'm surrounded by rabid FNV enjoyers in all of my circles.

 

[Melancholy Man]

The gigantic plot hole does tarnish it quite a bit, but while it makes the game noticeably not genius, what really kills it for me are the lacking RPG elements and oppressively bad gunplay and movement that no amount of mods can truly fix. Believe me, I've tried.

To each his own I guess. The lack of RPG elements is just wrong, you gonna have to express that opinion because that's the second time I've seen you say that but not explain what you mean.
Ignore the first bit I've seen your message, I give you the gunplay and honestly most of the issues are nitpicks that most wouldn't notice except fans. But looking at the interactive nature of the game, Perks/SPECIALs are rewarding and have an impact on dialogue, the excellent world design, the faction system, the branching nature of the missions, and roleplay options. All the good outweighs the flaws for me.