Because that is exactly the kind of TF-based min-maxing that the developers have been quite clear they don't want to encourage.
Your gripes with CoC II
- Thread starter Narmlet
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That was just me being silly:
I should still be able to resort to fisticuffs, if a Disarmed enemy can.
Who needs claws and tease when we have good old fashioned meat hooks! Unless "disarm" is a bit more literal than I thought. This is why we need punchy weapons. Or weapons shaped like fists. Disarm is still the most annoying status effect.
You raise a valid possibility.
I will accept the inability to strike back while Disarmed, provided I am rendered as such:
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Either building a specific tease-centric build is pointless because any purely physical build can also just casually be good enough with teasing to take down an encounter without using powers that have an impact on tease damage or inflict tease damage, or teasing while disarmed will, at most, take down one or two enemies before you should have your weapons back. I believe that, most of the time, it's the latter. And that's if all of your party is disarmed and also uses weapons (so no spellcaster and the like) to all just focus one enemy down with tease.
Disarmed, framed like this, is basically just stun but you don't get temporary immunity to it being re-inflicted and also charmers are completely unaffected. It is definitively better for the player to be disarmed rather than stunned (outside of spam situations, since you can't be stunlocked but you can be constantly disarmed if enemies choose to act in a certain way, with certain numbers.), but it also feels more annoying because a stun just skips a turn so you barely notice unless it quickly makes you loose, while disarmed has you go to your turn, look at your screen, and go "Wow, my ability to act has been entirely disrupted and yet I am still being forced to do something, even though I practically can't." Unless, again, you're a charmer, in which case you're pretty much unaffected, or if you're a spellcaster, in which case you loose some of your power but are still capable of using spells.
I think that that's probably not good, y'know? How it massively, disproportionately impacts certain builds worse than others. A Warrior and a Thief (and also someone using the Ranged Weapon powers) rely on their weapons for most things that have an impact. White and Black Mages don't rely on their weapons, but they're still a large aspect of the power Mages can utilize. Split-class builds, like a spellsword sort of deal, is essentially in the same boat as the Warrior and Thief, except maybe in a somewhat better situation. And then Charmers, especially tease-focused charmers, just keep shaking their hips whether the giant dildo staff is or isn't in their hands.
Technically, there's also an anti-mage counterpart, in the form of silenced (I think), which the player can inflict via Counterspell and Influence. But I have yet to see it actually get utilized against the player, except with Miko & Mai. And even then, there isn't really a "ha ha I've nullified your entire purpose and way of fighting for one to three turns" for tease. Like, there are foes that are tease immune, like wolves and Sigrune (and that is still basically just a sign saying "If you play this way, you can't play here"), but there isn't, to my knowledge, a status effect that completely nullifies tease and tease abilities. Not that I want there to be, but the disparity worsens the perception of this.
And unless your a charmer, summoner Black Mage or a White Mage that won't do much because if your a warrior or a thief your Presence will never be your main stat because they're better off in the long run putting their points into Strength, Toughness/Agility, and Cunning unless your doing a split-class like a spellsword then you replace Cunning with Willpower.
Extremely minor gripe, but I wish either the busts displayed in a locked progression pattern or that I could reset my bust gallery progress on Steam, because I fucked up the ordering of them by sleeping with Cait for the first time after giving her the cream sherry, so I never saw her nude bust without the expanded breasts.
Lack of build and party composition diversity has consequences; monoculture is a bitch. If your entire party is hard shut down by disarm that sounds like a you problem.
The enemy desperation attack when they can't do anything else is about as useful as struggle or an untrained tease is.
It's not changing.
The enemy desperation attack when they can't do anything else is about as useful as struggle or an untrained tease is.
It's not changing.
TheShepard256
Well-Known Member
Considering that the gallery is accessible from the main menu, I'm pretty sure unlocks carry across saves. As such, start a new save and have sex with Cait before giving her anything to unlock her initial nude bust.
Yes because fuck me for focusing on doing one thing really well and not trying to do mixed which most of the time will end up with doing both poorly.
Then what's the problem with letting us attack with our bare hands? Just have us be unable to use skills that need a weapon and only be able to use a weak basic attack.
You know the biggest advantage you have over enemies is that you have access to a truly massive amount of Armor, weapons, Abilities and consumables and you have and array of companions with different skillsets to tackle different enemies. No one build is going to handle every enemy with the same amount of ease some of them will be a struggle for certain builds. But none of them are insurmountable(apart from the bullshit invincible boss fights). you have all the tools you need to win and make the fight less of a pain in the ass, you just have to figure out the best way to use them.
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Have you ever heard of crippling overspecialization? Many animals went extinct because they focused on doing only one specific thing really well and when that was no longer possible they died.
Just like your party.
And did you ever heard of master of none? Where someone tries to do a lot things but never gets good at any of them?
Everyone's talking about disarm and builds and jack of all trades stuff. And here I am. Jimmies slightly rustled because I can't substitute cleave with a mighty lariat or clothesline when disarmed. Not having a weapon is no excuse to not use cleave.
I know I am just annoyed when they disrupt my crit stance, I just want those juicy crits.
I don't really get this post in all honesty. It seems like a complaint that the disarm status affects Rangers, Thieves and Warriors more so than other classes, yet that's kind of the entire point. Class / Build diversity is a thing. Just as Rangers, Thieves and Warriors are moreso affected by disarmed, Charmers are more affected by Resolve damage immunities. Except, in that case it's actually more permanent than a semi-frequent annoyance.
And even within your own post did you reference that you can tease (you even implied that a purely physical build that resorts to tease whilst disarmed is actually more casually effective than a tease-centric build...) whilst disarmed. And defending (defend) is a thing too, so the "practically can't [do something]" (for purely physical builds) assertion is a bit weird.
In any case, just because there are currently no (in combat) preventative / restricting status effects on the resolve damage front, and the silence status effect is not more commonplace, doesn't mean it will always be as such. I'd think that your post might be reflective of a bit of recency bias. Sure it can be annoying, but there are definitely other options when one is affected by disarm (consumables, tease - which you even admitted to, defend).
So, it's not just Charmer's or Mages (either kind) that have options - even if they're not affected to the same degree. Mages (both kinds) particularly are semi-reliant (to a degree, attributes help somewhat too) on Catalyst weapons for crit chance / accuracy for their spells, so when they get disarmed they too suffer (to an extent), in any case.
And tbh, even when playing a Charmer a disarm is just as annoying then (no basic attack whilst powers on cd), so it's not like it's a thing that exclusively feels annoying on a specific class, even if the impact is arguably not the same. As seen with the other comparisons within this post, every class / build may be subjected to specific pros / cons, which honestly just makes sense for reaching some level of balance with all the class / build diversity present in-game.
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I do not ever actually have my party shut down by disarms. I often have Cait in my party, and she stays on her base set purely because it diversifies the damage the party is capable of doing, rather than focusing on support, while still allowing for a dedicated heal, and if I don't she's usually replaced by Atugia, Berwyn, or Etheryn, depending on what I want. Parties should have diversity, but it's still annoying to have your character be effectively shut down while still being told "do something." The "And that's if all of your party is disarmed and also uses weapons (so no spellcaster and the like)" doesn't mean I expect it to happen, that's just where I feel it would be the only scenario in which using tease while disarmed could even get anything done: If everyone can't do anything but tease, than they may burst down an enemy with focused teasing, but outside of that scenario, having a single person disarmed effectively means that the tease is worthless as it's non-physical damage.
The "enemy desperation attack" is about as useful, except for the problem that it presumably deals hp damage, meaning that even if it's a small impact, it's still capable of making an impact. Meanwhile, a disarmed fighter either defends (which is essentially just waiting in terms of actual impact, unless that character happens to get hit by a strong attack on the one turn where they're disarmed), or teases, which does weak damage to resolve, something the party is not even targetting, effectively meaning that all it's useful for there is if the fighter wants to generate a small bit of threat. Having a weak punch while disarmed, which wouldn't do much damage, would still be better as it can have some impact, even if it's tiny.
Of course. My teams are never "all warriors" or "all spellcasters." I have diversity in team compositions, to help deal with different situations better. Honestly my issue isn't even that it shuts someone down, stun/prone also does that to every class but I have much more positive feelings about it than disarmed. Because stun/prone completely takes away the ability to act, it moves by smoothly, because I can't do anything anyways so why care? But with disarmed, I dislike it because, on some of the classes/builds (and also on Brint), it is pretty much a stun outside of a couple of ineffectual choices, but you still have to see your turn through.
Preparing equipment and abilities for set encounters in dungeons is fine. But in random encounters, you can't swap out an ability and playstyle after the encounter has begun, and you can't know what that encounter will be before you enter it. This is a relatively small point, but only one random encounter can inflict Silenced, while 4 (maybe more, I'm not sure, I am somewhat basing this off of the wiki and the wiki doesn't have anywhere near everything) can inflict Disarmed. There's still very few compared to the total number of encounters, but that still means that the ability to choose things and change things up for a random encounter is worsened for a weapon user. Also tease-immune enemies only exist in, like, one and a half random encounters, along with a few set encounters and even then usually as a side companion to a tease-vulnerable enemy.
But really, I don't even have a complaint that it makes things difficult for the characters who are most impacted by disarmed. As I said, I just find it incredibly annoying compared to stun (inflicted by 7-8 random encounter enemies, again I'm not sure, this is specifically about the Taothian Mage as I don't know if that's a random encounter enemy or an enemy in a specific place like a dungeon) or Prone (inflicted by 11 enemies in random encounters, though amongst encounter types it's more like 9 random encounters, two of which have two enemy types that can inflict it). And it's pretty much just because my options are severely limited to a few things that I would otherwise never use, and which pretty much don't have any benefit to me, but I still have to pick something. This problem only impacts weapon-based builds, sure, but I don't want to have to respec and swap out several pieces of equipment to deal effective magic damage just so that I don't get annoyed by a disarm done in a quest, particularly since I like to have different characters who are centered around some theme.
Also there's still the problem of non-mage builds being much more impacted by Disarmed and immunities than mage builds are by Silenced. If a game is going to have things to shut down certain builds in certain circumstances, don't make it so unevenly spread.
As I said at the end of the last little bit, if you want to use status effects and immunities to promote build/party diversity, spread it out evenly. Mages very rarely ever get impacted by Silenced, and when they do it's only when fighting kitsune so you can prepare for that. Disarmed happens much more often, from varying sources rather than one specific faction. Tease immunities largely only impacts beast or ghost type enemies, and outside of dungeon bosses most of them are honestly pretty weak compared to others, with only a few enemies which aren't of those types (like Sigrune, Benny, or the Arcane Golem) having tease immunity. I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell, that's how it is. So you can usually know about it based on faction for counters to magic and teasing, but disarmed is spread amongst several enemy types
The "implication" came in the form of the first sentence, right? Where I posed that either it's strong enough to not need to build for it, or it's weak enough that you won't have much of an impact. I then immediately followed it up with "I believe that, most of the time, it's the latter." So, you know, I definitely implied that it is when I said that it isn't the case. It's weak enough that most of the time, there isn't a point for an unarmed weapon-user to actually use it.
As for defending, I stand by the idea that it's practically nothing while disarmed. It halves the damage that you take, and in normal combat all that really essentially means is that you took the wait action. It's only really useful if you're at low enough health that one undefended hit will take you out, but a defended hit won't, and the enemy isn't low enough that you could finish them off and not need to worry, so you pick defend so that the healer can heal. In a disarmed situation, the defense isn't a critical/useful strategic tool, its utility is entirely in retaining a status quo rather than making an impact.
In terms of recency bias, I don't think so? It's a negativity bias, not a recency bias. Pretty much all of my recent characters have been Mages and Charmers. I think it's the negativity bias since my main characters from before were a Warrior and a ranged Thief, so I remember the annoyance much more greatly despite how I generally don't experience it now. In regards to tease, I didn't "admit" to it, I talked about how it's pretty much pointless for a weapon-user to use while disarmed. Defend is pretty much the only thing I actually did while disarmed with the weapon users, so of course I know you can do it, but I view it as having very little impact outside of a few situations. And consumables are... Eh? I pretty much never use them, honestly. I have a hoarder's habit. I knew that I could use them while disarmed, but I never thought to because I simply never use consumables. I only use a consumable in a game if it's easily renewable/gatherable and it has a very strong impact. Basically, I only use consumables if they're Estus from Dark Souls, or arrows in the same game. In CoC2, your main source of healing is usually going to be the powers of a dedicated healer or a split support/damage dealer, plus healing items aren't something I have, like, a stack of, so I could know that I have a comfortable enough amount of them.
I know about how Mages get impacted. I did say
in the post you're responding to. It's just a much lower impact, so you can still do make your actual attacks, even if they're less effective, rather than having to not attack at all.
For Charmers, yeah, it's annoying when you're not using a tease-based build. I was honestly mostly just thinking about charmers as tease-based, since that's what they excel at, but for support builds, I suppose it's pretty annoying, since that's the passive damage you can contribute. It's not as annoying as not being able to access powers due to the effect, but it is still pretty annoying.
Honestly I don't really want any change. Except for maybe being able to punch while disarmed. Most of what I've written is more just to vent the frustration I felt with the status effect, while trying to rationalize/justify it.
Kinda wishing I'd kept my metaphorical mouth shut, now.
Wasn't anticipating this amount and level of back-and-forth/backlash, and I feel bad.
Wasn't anticipating this amount and level of back-and-forth/backlash, and I feel bad.
Don't feel too bad, no one can predict what someone else will react to most of the time on the interwebs - though I guess if you really want to, try to take a nice look at what you're dealing with.
New CoC2 gripe:
Needs more handholding.
I don't think I've found any proper handholding from anyone so far, and I've tried kinda hard to look.
No need to feel bad. I like to talk about things like this because, well, I like to talk about things that interest me. I can't speak for why others talk, but I assume it's because they want to too.
That is perverse. Holding hands is the gateway drug to premarital sex. I need handholding
This coming from a community of fox lovers that has 72+ Astral children out of wedlock.
Hi, minor gripe but the loot for Undermountain is underwhelming for some of the mobs. The imps are fine, I'm surprised that they give out so much while being able to be disposed of easily by most playstyles but I guess it would not be fair to lock out certain classes from being able to farm them. Like the cultist before them, they give a lot of gold but only a little more since they are more of a challenge to kill but somehow less of a threat.
But when we get to a similar mob rush design; hobgoblins, which gives 1/4th the electrum for being in my opinion, tougher if not more of an annoyance to deal with than the imps. My first thought was that this was for story reasons since they are dirt poor and have to turn to banditry to survive. If that is the case then we have to discuss how and more importantly; why wolves and elementals would carry around electrum. So I still don't see a reason why they are worth so little.
Next is the earth elemental, the biggest offender. Man, was I surprised when they wiped my team the first time I met them. Yeah, sure, I was on dark difficulty but he still does some nasty damage on normal without being as tanky. If we compare them, to what I'm assuming is its counterpart, the chimera. Both can take out a single unit easily, and that's fine if a bit unfair when it's you. The difference is that the earth elemental can do it to my whole team. If his frenzy + cleave does not kill your team, his frenzy + quake next turn will. And you know what, it's a damn good fight that made me actually start using powers and items I never thought I would use just to make it more survivable, BUT it somehow gives the same amount as the chimera? Even the final boss of the underwater dungeon was less of a threat than the elemental. The reason this is a gripe is that the glacial rift becomes a much less profitable place after you complete Gwyn's tasks leaving you forced to farm at the Undermountain if you want to make full use of your time, but it is a significantly more difficult place to farm than glacial rift and it essentially gives a similar amount of electrum. If you still need farm electrum you're better holding off on completing Gywn's last task and farming at the glacial rift.
But when we get to a similar mob rush design; hobgoblins, which gives 1/4th the electrum for being in my opinion, tougher if not more of an annoyance to deal with than the imps. My first thought was that this was for story reasons since they are dirt poor and have to turn to banditry to survive. If that is the case then we have to discuss how and more importantly; why wolves and elementals would carry around electrum. So I still don't see a reason why they are worth so little.
Next is the earth elemental, the biggest offender. Man, was I surprised when they wiped my team the first time I met them. Yeah, sure, I was on dark difficulty but he still does some nasty damage on normal without being as tanky. If we compare them, to what I'm assuming is its counterpart, the chimera. Both can take out a single unit easily, and that's fine if a bit unfair when it's you. The difference is that the earth elemental can do it to my whole team. If his frenzy + cleave does not kill your team, his frenzy + quake next turn will. And you know what, it's a damn good fight that made me actually start using powers and items I never thought I would use just to make it more survivable, BUT it somehow gives the same amount as the chimera? Even the final boss of the underwater dungeon was less of a threat than the elemental. The reason this is a gripe is that the glacial rift becomes a much less profitable place after you complete Gwyn's tasks leaving you forced to farm at the Undermountain if you want to make full use of your time, but it is a significantly more difficult place to farm than glacial rift and it essentially gives a similar amount of electrum. If you still need farm electrum you're better holding off on completing Gywn's last task and farming at the glacial rift.
I actually solo a lot in this game so healing items are a must in a lot of situations. but I get that consumables fall to the wayside for a lot of people in a game like this because why stop to chew some grass in the middle of a fight when you have a girl who can heal you instantly, infinitely and much more effectively.
as for not being able to disarm shutting down warriors and thieves... yeah it's annoying. I think It's a perfectly valid complaint and I think it points to a strange disparity in the game where enemy's can still attack while disarmed but can't defend or tease if it's not one of their skills. Frankly there are a lot of issues with the games combat, as it stands, it's functional but there's a LOT that could be improved. my biggest issue with it continues to be and has been from the start is that if the PC goes down you just lose. It doesn't matter how they try to defend this it will never make sense and always be a detriment to the combat system.
This doesn't make any sense my other two teammates are still up why can't they finish the fight? Also why can't teammates use items?
Also a note, Cait's ultimate, Devotion, is a revive. It revives an ally, providing 25% of their health and 100 resolve. This, however, isn't really good in my opinion, because the Champ going down instantly ends an encounter, and Cait can't exactly use it on herself. So that means it's only useful if your third party member is the first to go down, and also goes down due to resolve since the hp factor is so small.
Yet, another problem with it is that I'm fairly certain the 100 resolve thing was intended to essentially be a full restore, a +resolve counterpart to the White Mage's Revive, which restores 25 resolve and 100% health. The thing is, level 5 (and ultimates) were added in December of 2019, while the current Resolve system (where resolve scales with stats rather than being static) was created in December of 2020. So now 100 resolve is much less than a full restore- heck, on some of my champs, that's less than half. Not that that matters too much, given that it can't be used on the champ, but for other party members it's still far from a full resolve heal. Given how the game currently is, Devotion is pretty bad. It's a small hp heal, and impartial resolve heal, and can only be used on whatever party member is 1: not the pc, and 2: not Cait. It's still a revive, but it's so much worse than Revive, even though they're applied to different situations.
And as I said in my post, it certainly seems like it will be distributed evenly. Just because it currently is doesn't mean it will always be like that.
In the interim it may seem punitive, sure, but I'd argue that the Disarmed Combat Effect is much better than the Stunned Combat Effect, because you actually have options (even if you don't see it as such).
Even if you see Defending as "useless", when Stunned your PC is still taking full damage, so taking less damage is still better overall. And if you've got sufficient party diversity considering the three different damage types (Physical, Magical, Resolve), then you'd be able to synergize via utilizing Tease attacks in any case. As well as using damaging Consumables, you'd be able to continue to apply that sought after Health damage you're talking about.
Anyway, for Combat Effects, I could see some argument for having some form of Diminishing Returns, where if one was afflicted with a specific Combat Effect, they would gain either some Temporary Immunity (1 to 2 turns after the Combat Effect they're Immune to being afflicted with the same Combat Effect again), or Temporary Reduction in the next application of said Combat Effect (3 turn Disarmed Combat Effect applied to PC -> PC does whatever action for the next 3 turns -> PC gets another 3 second Disarmed Combat Effect applied -> Diminishing Returns result in the PC's new Disarmed Combat Effect only lasting for 1 turn).
I'd argue that it would only be "weak enough [to not have] much of an impact" if there wasn't party diversity to bridge that gap. You have access to Bimbo set Azzy, Dancer set Cait and Base set Quin.
If you're playing as a Physical damaging PC, I'd argue that having inclusion for every damage type would make sense for a typical party composition (specifically because of how prevalent / powerful Resolve damage is in this game). That way even if your Physical damaging PC was Disarmed, they'd be able to synergize with your Resolve damaging Companion by using Tease attacks (assuming it's not an encounter with an NPC that's immune to Resolve damage), and actually feel as though the specific Tease attacks were actually resulting in something instead of just feeling "useless".
I'd argue that it's not "practically nothing" though, because in the event that one was Stunned for 3 turns in a row (assuming RNG like that exists in the first place), one would take full damage over all 3 of those turns. However, if one was Disarmed instead for 3 turns and Defended for all 3 of those turns, they'd have taken reduced damage for the duration - definitely seems a bit better than being unable to take action (as when Stunned).
Sure, you're not able to do the Physical damage that you want if your PC is disarmed, but you are still able to see some level of impact (by your PC taking less damage) in the encounter that you wouldn't see if your PC was Stunned.
Doesn't particularly matter the identifier used for the bias, it is bias nonetheless. And whilst your first hand experiences with Defending might result in you thinking it's "useless", you have to admit that you'd take sufficiently less damage than if your PC was Stunned, yes?
Consumables? Yes, whilst not the most conventional, they do still allow for you to deal Health damage to enemy NPCs, even if you're playing a Physical damaging PC. Your prior complaints could somewhat be negated with items such as the Leananstone and the Ley-crystal Grenade. Because even though the Ley-crystal Grenade is rather difficult to come by, it still does Health damage, and whilst Leananstone adds Cunning and Willpower to its damage, it also allows for one to deal Health damage (and is directly purchasable from the start of the game; from Ivris).
So in that regard, your PC would still be capable of dealing damage, even though it'd be a different damage type (Magical damage), at reduced damage, I'd imagine it'd be somewhat comparative to a "enemy desperation attack" in any case.
Sure, I can understand that. But that highlights that it's not exactly a Combat Effect that only impacts one Class, it has some affect for all, just at varying degrees.
Just how you could say that (if the Silenced Combat Effect becomes more prevalent) it'd have more effect on Magical damaging PCs than it would on Physical damaging PCs. Just because that'd be true, doesn't mean that a Physical damaging PC couldn't be affected at all, because as I mentioned above with using Leananstone, if the Physical damaging PC was Silenced, they'd no longer be able to throw it as it's listed as a Spell Power as well. While in the scenario that would be to a lesser effect for the Physical damaging PC than the Magical damaging PC, I'd still say the argument is rather comparative seeing as it only affects on aspect of each PCs damaging types (and what action they take, seeing as the Magical damaging PC could still Defend, or Tease, same with this case study we're talking about).
Sure not being able to utilize Powers can be annoying, but that's only a temporary thing (unless unlucky RNG). I'd say that with Charmer's occasionally having encounters were NPCs are immune to Resolve damage would be just as comparable though, albeit not to the same extent (due to frequency and all that). But as I stated, the difference in that would then be that the Charmer's would consistently be unable to use any of their Resolve damaging powers throughout the entire encounter, instead of only for a specific duration.
Yeah, I can understand your frustration, and I'd agree that the PC should technically be able to make an unarmed attack, because they actually carry a Rusty Knife when they're disarmed (so, possibly could have a Riposte button next the the Defend button and use the Rusty Knife).
But I do disagree with your consistent assertions of Physical damaging PCs being "useless" when disarmed, as seen in the above - there are objectively other options, you just have to change the way you see them.
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