Seeds of Chaos [Ren'py - Version 0.2.42]

[Svelliphore]

Just played through the most recent version; I like it a lot so far. The art is high quality and I don't particularly mind the different artists (it's definitely noticeable, but not jarring for me). There seems to be a lot of substance to the plot and setting aside from the porn; I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in general, not just seeing more adult scenes.


That said, I did enjoy those too. My preference leans towards MxM content, so I enjoyed that scene this update (as well as the graphics to go with it). The only thing that bothered me at all was that it seemed a bit ... out of character? (The female variant as well.) I know the theme of the game is being the "bad guy," and I'm actually a big fan of corruption content, but I prefer it to be somewhat gradual. Rowan's backstory seemed to me to establish him as starting out as a "good guy" and a fairly loving husband (the player can shift his characterization some with different choices in the prologue, but he definitely cares about Alexia) and so it felt like at this early stage, he would try to avoid infidelity when presented with a choice. It's kind of possible to interpret events so that it makes more sense for him to have sex with one of the demons (they didn't explicitly give him the option to refuse, and he might have thought there would be serious consequences). But to me it felt like Rowan had same choice as the player, and so I'll probably plan to have him skip this sex scene in my main playthrough. 


I mean, I definitely agree with what previous posters have said about allowing players to choose what kind of sexual content they want (or want to avoid). And I won't have this issue later in the game when Rowan is more definitely corrupted. At this early stage, though, I guess I would like to somehow have sex be more "forced" on him. I don't have any practical suggestions; it's hard to give the player choice and make it seem like the main character doesn't have a choice.


In general, I actually like that the main character has more of an established backstory and personality; it's more interesting and allows for more direct dialogue than making him a total blank slate.


It's nice to be able to skip, and nice to be able to save, but I ran into some problems when I tried to use these two functions one after the other. Sometimes I'd skip to a choice and want to save so that I could compare the effects of each choice. But, the save button is not accessible when you're presented with a choice. So I ended up replaying from the start to get back to the same spot. This was somewhat annoying, but maybe this is intentional.


One other thing that I have noticed (more I think in the earlier parts of the prologue) is that there are a number of minor punctuation errors; there might have been some grammar or spelling errors as well. (The most common error I noticed was comma splices, such as "I like the solitude, it gives me time to clear my head" and "Her attractive face wears a look of extreme worry, something is clearly very wrong.") That kind of thing doesn't bother me too much, but it does distract me a bit, and text makes up a large part of the game. I don't know if this is just a temporary situation until you go through and edit the game yourself. If you think you might benefit from another person editing, I could play through the prologue again and send you a message listing whatever issues I find.

 

[Lord Arioch]

Thanks for the longform comment, Svelliphore. Don't get enough of these, and as nice as people telling me they like the game is for my ego, it is not so helpful as actual commentary.

I agree with everything you have to say about Rowan, which is why I had the option to refuse there. I wanted to have a sex scene there in the hope it would make people feel more comfortable exploring for a while afterwards, but had limited options. I could have done a reunion, but people had already seen one variation of that (and there'd be no MxM), or I could have done the twins (again, no MxM), so I felt like what I have is the best option. The only way I can think of to make it more forced would be rape, but then it wouldn't be optional (and that is totally not my thing, so I've not real desire to write it). Like you say, it is a difficult situation. I figured those who wanted porn could suspend their disbelief a little, and those who wanted to remain pure (for the time being) could refuse. 


I'll look into the save thing. I haven't altered that so it must be standard ren'py behaviour. I'm sure there will be some way to change it, though.


Probably won't have a chance to go back and fix the grammar stuff for a while as it is very minor, and I have a lot of work to do with the castle and events. If you did want to send me a list of corrections, I would appreciate it though.

 

[LDB1.2]

Hi Lord Arioch. I actually backed you recently and played full prologue before, and I wanted to express similar thoughts about prologue ending but didn't quite find right words until I read this conversation.


In my opinion, problem is not is in scene itself (I mean both sex and submission to service), problem is circumstances. We know that Rowan was a hero, person tough and determined enough to storm this castle and destroy it's lord first time. 2 months with some torture in dungeons is enough to shake him, but it does not seems to be enough to break him completly and force him to serve demons and submit to them sexually.  There has to be a transformation of sorts, changing moment.


I absolutly enjoyed conversations with "invisible" prisoner (I hope we will learn about his identity later), and I think some similar things would be great with further focus on "corruption" part. (since serving demons is definitely a corruption for him).  Like haunted dreams, visions, may be flashbacks about his previous time here: battles, losses and suffering and thoughts about how it all was pointless since evil came back eventually. Something that would make him say "screw this, I was wrong, i want to play in the same team (or bed) as these guys".


This would make it seems like he's pushed to this conclusion but not forced, and the last step is on his own will and consience. Also, some opportunity to highlight things from his past. 


It's just a suggestion, if you have no time for re-treading and remaking this, it's ok, perfectly understandable. But i absolutely loved dialogs and setting in your game, it's really one of this "came for a porn, stay for a story" moments. And probably only because rest of the game was so great, this scene felt a bit flat.


Thank you you for your mighty effort, and I am expecting a new great things from you!

 

[Shizenhakai]

I have to say that I thought he was pretending..


He could not escape, defeating both of them in his current state is unlikely so faking a defection is his only choice.


Once he finds an opening, he could try to strike.


And he choice to submit sexually, because he thought he had to to get his chance..


-But that might just be my headcanon


BTW. I *really* hope we will have an ending where he will become their general or something..


To many of these corrupting games think that just because you defect you automaticly want to become leader..


Anyways, I really like the game so far, I look forward to see more *_*

 

[TheDarkMaster]

I've now played the newest version.  It fleshes things out more and I found the contrast between the treatment the two prisoners got rather interesting.  No major errors or bugs that I noticed.  Like others, I thought that the second time in the throne room felt out of character for Rowan, but for me it was his sudden agreement to join the demons.  Everything leading up to that point suggests that he has nothing but grim determination, and no reason to ever agree to their request.  He never wavers or thinks that there is a reason he would need to agree, which makes it feel really jarring and out of character for him to suddenly do so.  As the game immediately ends otherwise, this is the only real path for the story.  If there was at least something before hand were he is at least tempted to do so either to see his wife again or as a way to escape prison, or after contemplating doing so for the time being with the intention to eventually betray the demons, then it wouldn't seem so bizarre for him to just join with no apparent lead up.  Given the way his character is introduced, Rowan's fall to the dark side feels like it should be a central point to the story and it doesn't feel like that's there right now.

 

[karunama]

After reading these other comments, I have to admit they have something of a point.  It hadn't actually bothered me on my first time through, simply because if it was me, I'd have certainly agreed to follow them at that point, but it isn't me, so...  I've mentioned this before, but I think Stockholm Syndrome really ought to play a part here.  The circumstances fit really well for that to develop, especially with the 'good cop, bad cop' thing the twins have going.  Of course, this is only one way you could go with it, and a 'breaking point' scenario as others have suggested would also work really well.


In truth, I don't really think it's that odd for months of torture and the prospect of ending up like the other prisoner to put him in a more agreeable state (moreso the latter than the former, actually), so I wouldn't be put off in the least if you decided it was too much work for already finished content, but there does seem to be something of a consensus.


Actually, IMHO, a very VERY simple fix would be to just give the player the chance immediately post prologue to decide what his motivations were.  Something like:


A) luring them into a false sense of security.


B) Didn't want to end up like the guy next to me.


C) Wanted to see Alexia again no matter the cost.


D) After thinking about it, the female demon's arguments made some sense.


In my opinion, once the player has the chance to decide what his motivations were, any jarring from this choice will melt away.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

After reading these other comments, I have to admit they have something of a point.  It hadn't actually bothered me on my first time through, simply because if it was me, I'd have certainly agreed to follow them at that point, but it isn't me, so...  I've mentioned this before, but I think Stockholm Syndrome really ought to play a part here.  The circumstances fit really well for that to develop, especially with the 'good cop, bad cop' thing the twins have going.  Of course, this is only one way you could go with it, and a 'breaking point' scenario as others have suggested would also work really well.


In truth, I don't really think it's odd enough for months of torture and the prospect of ending up like the other prisoner to put him in a more agreeable state (moreso the latter than the former, actually), so I wouldn't be put off in the least if you decided it was too much work for already finished content, but there does seem to be something of a consensus.


Actually, IMHO, a very VERY simple fix would be to just give the player the chance immediately post prologue to decide what his motivations were.  Something like:


A) luring them into a false sense of security.


B) Didn't want to end up like the guy next to me.


C) Wanted to see Alexia again no matter the cost.


D) After thinking about it, the female demon's arguments made some sense.


In my opinion, once the player has the chance to decide what his motivations were, any jarring from this choice will melt away.

That choice idea could be presented instead of the Accept/Refuse option, with the final option being that you stand by your principles no matter what.

 

[karunama]

That choice idea could be presented instead of the Accept/Refuse option, with the final option being that you stand by your principles no matter what.

I could see that, but I was thinking more along the lines of when Rowan finally gets to see Alexia and she asks him about it.  Still, your idea would certainly work perfectly well.  It would just involve going back to finished content instead of working on the new stuff, which is where I imagine @Lord Arioch's main focus currently lies.

 

[Svelliphore]

 I figured those who wanted porn could suspend their disbelief a little, and those who wanted to remain pure (for the time being) could refuse. [...]


Probably won't have a chance to go back and fix the grammar stuff for a while as it is very minor, and I have a lot of work to do with the castle and events. If you did want to send me a list of corrections, I would appreciate it though.

Thanks for the response! It makes sense that this was more-or-less deliberate; you seem to have put a lot of thought into this game and I really didn't mind this part very much. The sex scenes have to be put into the game somewhere! As you point out, there's a clear option to refuse, so people like me who want to play Rowan as "pure" can make that choice, and just use another save if we want to see the scene.


I'll send you a PM in a bit with a list of things that seemed incorrect to me.


It's interesting to see that some other people had somewhat similar feelings. Unlike TheDarkMaster, I actually didn't mind Rowan choosing to join the demons at that point, because the way I played it, originally I refused to serve the demons and got the “prisoner” bad end. So on my next time through, I knew as a player that there was only one viable option, and I was able to imagine that Rowan was smart enough to realize this as well. It’s not actually logical, but for me it’s easy enough to imagine motivations like this when they coincide with my motivations as a player. (For that reason, I also don't think it's necessary to explicitly choose Rowan's motivations in game.)


For me, the tough part with the second decision is the cognitive dissonance caused by knowing as a player that Rowan has the option to refuse sex with the demons without any negative consequences, but having to imagine that Rowan doesn’t realize this if I’m role-playing Rowan as still having noble intentions. (I'm assuming there won't be any in-game advantage to having sex with one of the demons, since that would compromise the player's ability to choose based on what they want rather than what is the "best" way to play the game.)

 

[karunama]

It's interesting to see that some other people had somewhat similar feelings. Unlike TheDarkMaster, I actually didn't mind Rowan choosing to join the demons at that point, because the way I played it, originally I refused to serve the demons and got the “prisoner” bad end. So on my next time through, I knew as a player that there was only one viable option, and I was able to imagine that Rowan was smart enough to realize this as well. It’s not actually logical, but for me it’s easy enough to imagine motivations like this when they coincide with my motivations as a player. (For that reason, I also don't think it's necessary to explicitly choose Rowan's motivations in game.)

It was my impression that the prisoner in the cell next door was there explicitly to force Rowan to draw that conclusion.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the demon twins playing pretend to 'help' Rowan's decision making along in the right direction.  Coincidentally, explicitly choosing his motivations not only helps alleviate cognitive dissonance, but in my opinion sets the stage for his further mental states and delineates the starting line for his corruption.


For example, I honestly thought that Jezera's arguments in the cell made a certain amount of sense, and that would have swayed me.  Add the torture and crazy guy next door, and all of a sudden, their cause is something I could live with serving, if I have to.  That said, there's no way currently to tell if that had any effect on Rowan, which is something I'd quite like to know.  Being able to specify that it did would be even better, at least IMHO.


Something of a sidenote; there is no reason, in my opinion, to assume that the demons were giving him a choice about the sexual service.  The natural assumption is that it is a test, and refusal is not an option, unless you enjoy the idea of going back to the dungeons.  If @Lord Arioch hadn't specifically said the scenes were avoidable, it wouldn't have occurred to me that refusal would have a lack of major consequences.  Even the 'infidelity' angle rings hollow if you consider it to be a necessary step in saving your beloved.

 

[Lord Arioch]

First, I'm glad for all this discussion as it shows you are engaged in the story, which makes me happy. The problem of course is that the demons are making, as Brando's Don Corleone famously put it, 'an offer [you] can't refuse', and in the grand tradition of all Hobson's choices, it only gives the illusion of being a free choice. I'm sure you are all sympathetic to the fact I have to funnel the player here, otherwise there would be no game. I have taken the comments on board though, and made a minor change so that in future builds you'll choose one of the motivations as suggested by karunama instead of just accepting. 

@svelliphore Thanks, really appreciate it.

@karunama Jezera's argument is part Hegel's Master/Slave Dialectic from the Phenomenology of Spirit, part Ivan's parable of The Grand Inquisitor from The Brothers Karamazov, and part Sartre's argument about freedom and responsibility in Being and Nothing.  

 

[Nephilim_Anunnaki]

I like the idea of being asked how Rowan accepts (there are something similar on another adventures).


Also... oddly enough Jezera's sold me...

 

[IvoryOwl]

Just out of curiosity... will it be possible to "tame" that handsome red looking demon further along the road? By tame I mean making him a bit more attached the character.

 

[Lord Arioch]

Just out of curiosity... will it be possible to "tame" that handsome looking red demon further along the road? By tame I mean making him a bit more attached the character.

Yeah, probably.

 

[Hizor]

Welp, so much for my waiting till christmas. xD  


I was wondering about the project and decided to drop by and see how things are, and now the Prologue is ended, great! I'll update all the forums posts around the web and check out the game myself soon and give some feedback. 

 

[Lord Arioch]

Thanks Hiz. The vast majority of coding for the real (read: non-VN) game is done now as well, so won't be too long til you are actually adventuring.

 

[Mario]

Yeah, probably.

I really hope it doesn't have to be that way. I like him being a dominant demon, so there is no need for him growing soft . It was a very entertaining scene between him and Rowan and if anything, it should be possible to make him at least stay as rough towards Rowan. Maybe a kind of atachment might be in him considering Rowan his favorite toy and be more demanding of him. I sure as hell (haha) would like to see that in a game like this erfect: .


That being said, I also really like what I saw so far. The art looks awesome and the story is very good so far. I agree what has been said about Rowan making the choice of serving the demons and his reasons for doing so. As far as I saw it has already been added into the game to let the player chose a reason for Rowan to submit so I dont have to dwell to long on that.


Keep up the good work


From what I read, the next part of the game will be some kind of adventure/grind that is more less like in a RPG. I am eager to see what it will be like. Of course some kind of interaction with the demons will be nice, especially that red horny dude

 

[karunama]

I really hope it doesn't have to be that way. I like him being a dominant demon, so there is no need for him growing soft . It was a very entertaining scene between him and Rowan and if anything, it should be possible to make him at least stay as rough towards Rowan. Maybe a kind of atachment might be in him considering Rowan his favorite toy and be more demanding of him. I sure as hell (haha) would like to see that in a game like this erfect: .


That being said, I also really like what I saw so far. The art looks awesome and the story is very good so far. I agree what has been said about Rowan making the choice of serving the demons and his reasons for doing so. As far as I saw it has already been added into the game to let the player chose a reason for Rowan to submit so I dont have to dwell to long on that.


Keep up the good work


From what I read, the next part of the game will be some kind of adventure/grind that is more less like in a RPG. I am eager to see what it will be like. Of course some kind of interaction with the demons will be nice, especially that red horny dude

I seem to recall Andras saying something along the lines that he was looking forward to breaking Rowan during that scene.  I was looking forward to it too, truth be told .

 

[Lord Arioch]

The plan is for the way relationships between the player and NPCs shape to be decided by player choices, so there's no reason both could not be in the game.

 

[Mario]

On another note, concerning Rowan and the RPG beyond the prologue.


From what i saw in the preview Rowan will start as Level 1. That is probably the most common approach. It makes also sense because the player then has full controll over his advancement. In this case however it might not be the best way to do it. He has a history as a hero and adventurer. We know that from the prologue. Like he killed the demon father of the twins and was able to kill several orcs alone, including a orc chief. If he is still Level 1 when the player starts controlling and advancing him the power gain from just one Level would be essentially doubling his power which would be insane. And how powerful would he become with Level 5, or 10?


On the other hand, letting him start als Level 5, for example, would make him able to have accomplished his deeds in the past and when he gains a level it would not be a directly a doubling. I know that would be strange somehow to already have picked some predefined perks, feats whatever they will be called, but it would make it more believable for him to be a reknown hero. Also ... the demon twins would probably not pick a total inexperienced guy for being their human leader of armies etc. Even if Rowan was part in killing their father, others from that team would make a better choice because of being more useful in regards to skills and battle prowess. They might still kidnap Rowan and have some fun with him as punishment for his deeds but would not really make him their most importand human servant/slave.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

The plan is for the way relationships between the player and NPCs shape to be decided by player choices, so there's no reason both could not be in the game.

Just be careful you don't overwhelm yourself with too many possible outcomes.

 

[Lord Arioch]

@Mario - He's only level one because I set that as the base when adding the relevant variables, I'll probably rejig it after feats are added.

@TDM - Yeah, I'm thinking just to do that sort of the thing with the twins and Alexia, and then have all the other NPCs be simpler.

 

[Woider]

Played through the prologue yesterday and it was pretty interesting. To be fair, I got kinda excited when I recognized the artstyle of the chick on the opening screen. Here's to hoping it won't degenerate into murdermania or "for the evils" shenanigans, and sticks to it's "slow descent into corruption" guns.

 

[IvoryOwl]

I really hope it doesn't have to be that way. I like him being a dominant demon, so there is no need for him growing soft . It was a very entertaining scene between him and Rowan and if anything, it should be possible to make him at least stay as rough towards Rowan. Maybe a kind of atachment might be in him considering Rowan his favorite toy and be more demanding of him. I sure as hell (haha) would like to see that in a game like this erfect: .


That being said, I also really like what I saw so far. The art looks awesome and the story is very good so far. I agree what has been said about Rowan making the choice of serving the demons and his reasons for doing so. As far as I saw it has already been added into the game to let the player chose a reason for Rowan to submit so I dont have to dwell to long on that.


Keep up the good work


From what I read, the next part of the game will be some kind of adventure/grind that is more less like in a RPG. I am eager to see what it will be like. Of course some kind of interaction with the demons will be nice, especially that red horny dude

Well... I din't mean him going "soft" like that - his dominant attitude is part of the reason why I like him after all - I mean an attachment like... like a master/slave relationship in a BDSM session with a bit of "romantic-but-not-quite" luggage attached to it. It doesn't have to be explicit either, just subtle hints about it. I dunno... guess I'm just an oddball with a fetish for S&M with a bit of romance involved, lol.

 

[mrttao]

So, I am curious.


Is the MC getting NTRed by the male demon? I am getting a "Nice Time for Roo soon" vibe from the wife/male demon interactions.

with an option to filter out any scenes and/or events the player is not interested in seeing.

Worth noting that filter from SEEING it is not the same as the filter making it not happen at all.


if there is any emotional attachment at all (which there will be) to the characters than merely not seeing it is not enough if the dialog indicates it actually happened offscreen.

 

[Lord Arioch]

@Woider - It isn't going to be the kind of game where you go around murdering everyone.  I mean, you could, but doing that will have consequences.


@MrT - I should have been more clear, it doesn't happen.

 

[Woider]

@Woider - It isn't going to be the kind of game where you go around murdering everyone.  I mean, you could, but doing that will have consequences.


@MrT - I should have been more clear, it doesn't happen.

Good, because evil is more than turning enemies into blood sausages.

 

[Hizor]

Okay finally got the time to sit down grab a drink and give it a look see. So far the story is coming along quite nicely, though however it seems the player is more in a position of a submissive near the end there, some people may not find that appealing. So far I love the environment art. But in the scene with your wife talking to the demon her mouth kinda jumps off her face (so to speak), during the talking animation it snoops really low and makes it look... weird. Another thing is during the demoness little sex scene, the CG is great like always, but the player art looks almost like a different person as in the facial structure looks wrong. I know you may not be able to do anything about the art at this stage since it's been implemented, but those are my thoughts. 


And it seems you can already beat the game! xD With a bad end of course. Not many games let you just outright refuse and end the game there.


I did not check out the Demon/male scene since I'm not interested in that sort of thing. There's is my review so far. Now for a few questions/ideas.


Since the character is going about the whole world domination route (Hail Hitler! XD) this is going to take quite the large force since an army years ago put down the last chaos uprising. This would mean a lot of new characters and since we are going to be doing some exploring with the Castle as a base you could also implement a relationship system as well. I know quite a few people enjoy the whole slow process other then the "Give me a quicky and we are done thing."


As for some other thoughts I'll have to see what the chapter 1 update brings so I can see how everything will work.


So far it's looking very good and very promising. Keep up the good work. ^.^


And I also have a feeling that something is going to happen with his wife and the demon.


Which brings me to my final thing. Arioch doesn't even mention about his wife after being released from captivity, you'd think he would be more concerned.

 

[mrttao]

@MrT - I should have been more clear, it doesn't happen.

The Nice Time for Roo thing? the "offscreen stuff" thing? or both?


if both then great.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Personally, I don't mind the Nice Time for Roo. Why? Because the way the story is headed its obvious the MC is going to cheat on her countless of times... if she does it too then she will be just as guilty. Besides, if the demons have it their way, the world is soon going to become a place a pure hedonism, so I assume "free-love" is going to become a common place thing.