Zevos' Boss Manual

[anniebannannie]

Well i can see how most of those issues could arise for new techs, it just seems like most flaws are fairly easily bypassed. While yes i wouldnt be upset over a buff, I just dont see many of the problems everyone else does. (also I def wouldnt say shield hack is useless, just situational. Level 7 3 shot taivra shield hack overcharge overcharge). Also I normally just use shoot a couple of times for non bosses so energy use is fairly minimal.

And while i would agree mercs are easily the best, I don't see how smugglers are better than techs.

 

[Emerald]

And while i would agree mercs are easily the best, I don't see how smugglers are better than techs.

In a way it's the synergy of their perks and damage output as a whole.
Smugglers have a way to blind enemies from the start and it's a starter perk that uses less energy than Tech's Volley does. And they do more DPT (Damage-per-turn) than techs with the synergy of their passive 'Aimed shot' perk with flashbang and/or disarm, allowing you to dish out even more damage on those blinded. Speaking of passives, they have more and better passive abilities that they can actually rely on in combat. More evasion, more damage per turn, less time needed to recover from annoying shit like blind and/or being knocked prone, evasion out the ass, and aimed shot and sneak attack get a boost by lvl 7 so even more damage from that to take advantage of, and did I mention evasion out the ass?

I myself am a player who went from tech to smuggler just to try it out, and the flashbang+aimed shot combo, plus double shot later on and keeping your intelligence and aim stat high enough, can let you dish out a lot of damage (I think I was doing about more than 80 damage or something each shot with flashbang, aimed shot, and double shot.. make that two more-than-80s in one turn) if you manage to actually hit every turn and is easy to abuse... aside from the bosses that can only be beat by lust ofc. But after trying smuggler I never went back to Tech again.
They aren't exactly better than Mercs by a longshot (Though I never tried merc so I wouldn't know myself, but many say they're op so I'll take their word for it), but they are certainly better than tech from a combat standpoint.

 

[Ormael]

Yes most of techs flaws are bypseed...by getting tons of energy regen items and been max lvl so we can faceroll anything aside few bosses. Making Techs nt to struggle on earlier lvl would be better. And helps us from stopping tech to smug conversion ^^

 

[anniebannannie]

Tech's Volley does.

I never run tech volley, overcharge is a much more useful perk.

And they do more DPT (Damage-per-turn) than techs

Techs aren't a pure damage class. However, I also do almost 60 damage with just a normal shot, and like 20 more with my drone.

more and better passive abilities that they can actually rely on in combat.

But techs have plenty of very useful passives? More shields, their first perk is essentially a great passive that gives bonus shields as well as bonus damage every turn as long as shields are up (they almost always are for me because of high evasion with reflex), even pre level 8.

less time needed to recover from annoying shit like blind and/or being knocked prone,

Even when blinded and knocked down I do damage with my drone, so it's a small trade off.

I just have not been able to play as smuggler, it's boring and they just don't seem that good.

 

[Ormael]

not soa mny usefull passive perks compared to other classes. that super strong shields and once per combat recovering 25% shields is good ones but other than this...I can't recall any usefull passive perks for them :/

 

[Galgano]

While I haven't played other classes yet, I disagree that techs should get a boost to their early game. If they are supposed to be the mages of the TiTSverse then they should start out weak and become devastatingly powerful by end game. Now, I realize that doesn't mean they shouldn't be powerful mid game. On the contrary, I think their "mage-scaling" is falling a little bit below the curve. Not much since they can still hold their own for most fights by themselves, but it shouldn't be farfetched to see them be able to dominate or at least go toe-to-toe against a merc or smuggler by the end of the game. Great, now I want to see a gladiatorial competition thing where you fight other mercs, smugs, and techs with their abilities picked at random from their respective skill tree. Stats would be mostly distributed appropriately for the particular class and normal attack type (aim vs physique). The only way to add PvP.

 

[Couch]

If they are supposed to be the mages of the TiTSverse then they should start out weak and become devastatingly powerful by end game.

This is terrible game design. It's especially terrible game design in TiTS given that we are at least five or six years from seeing any endgame content.

 

[Galgano]

I was just saying that they're being touted as "spess mages" and in a lot of rpgs, mages are notorious for being weak and squishy early game by but gain abilities and spells to be able to dominate late game

 

[anniebannannie]

Now, I realize that doesn't mean they shouldn't be powerful mid game.

We're not even at mid-game yet.

 

[Galgano]

Oh we aren't? My bad, I thought I read somewhere that 20 was going to be max level

 

[anniebannannie]

I thought I read somewhere that 20 was going to be max level

I think that was the general framework they were going for (I think? not positive), but even then, mid game would be from about level 10-15, and we're still at level 8. Speaking of which, I have enough xp saved up to probably last me the next few updates that raise level.

 

[Couch]

I was just saying that they're being touted as "spess mages" and in a lot of rpgs, mages are notorious for being weak and squishy early game by but gain abilities and spells to be able to dominate late game

And that is bad game design in those RPGs. It's frustratingly common since D&D, the trendsetter that most other RPGs copy, is also one of the worst games out there about caster dominance in every edition but 4th.

There are numerous reasons why it's bad game design, some of which apply to multiplayer games, some to single-player games, and some to both. In multiplayer games, it skews the spotlight between party members, typically in favor of allowing the wizard to solve most problems that aren't combat-related. In single-player games, it punishes the player for making the wrong choice by picking the good-early class, because the only real challenges in a single-player RPG are at the end of the game. Any challenges earlier than that can be beaten by grinding until the player is overleveled.

The Early Access development model that TiTS follows introduces even more, because again, your "mage" will be waiting years to reach endgame levels. We are at Planet 3 of 10. It's going to be a long-ass time before we get to endgame. Every class should be equally functional at every stage of development.

The only sort of genre where this type of balance works is in games like League of Legends, which are competitive games where matches last about an hour and thus it's a tactical choice the team makes about how much to weight an early advantage versus a late one.

 

[Nik_van_Rijn]

And that is bad game design in those RPGs. It's frustratingly common since D&D, the trendsetter that most other RPGs copy, is also one of the worst games out there about caster dominance in every edition but 4th.

There are numerous reasons why it's bad game design, some of which apply to multiplayer games, some to single-player games, and some to both. In multiplayer games, it skews the spotlight between party members, typically in favor of allowing the wizard to solve most problems that aren't combat-related. In single-player games, it punishes the player for making the wrong choice by picking the good-early class, because the only real challenges in a single-player RPG are at the end of the game. Any challenges earlier than that can be beaten by grinding until the player is overleveled.

The Early Access development model that TiTS follows introduces even more, because again, your "mage" will be waiting years to reach endgame levels. We are at Planet 3 of 10. It's going to be a long-ass time before we get to endgame. Every class should be equally functional at every stage of development.

The only sort of genre where this type of balance works is in games like League of Legends, which are competitive games where matches last about an hour and thus it's a tactical choice the team makes about how much to weight an early advantage versus a late one.

Add to that long list the fact that almost all of the systems that employ the Square Wizards dynamic are party-based and thus quite different from the Lonely Space Hero fantasy TiTS is trying to sell. Other classes are needed to do basic shit and pick up the slack in the early game, as well as to be meat shields and fallback options in case of the DM/devs throwing a magic immune/nullifying curve-ball at the player.

Actually, Tech Specialists (as they are now) would have worked better in a party-based system. They'd still have two almost entirely useless abilities, nonviable melee tree stump and energy recovery problems, but at least their focus on defense and utility would be justified.

I must also point out that caster dominance doesn't come up as much in a fully freeform tabletop campaigns. And that GURPS has done it better.

 

[NotYouNorI]

Though, one way to make up for the Tech Spec's lack of energy recovery would be to give them a larger energy pool or to reduce the energy cost of their special abilities.

 

[Lancer]

Though, one way to make up for the Tech Spec's lack of energy recovery would be to give them a larger energy pool or to reduce the energy cost of their special abilities.

I've always been annoyed by how much energy firing off a single extra shot with volley takes.

 

[Ormael]

Plus for space mages... makes still illusion their can specialize in melee build it another trap for some/many. And only good thing we can regrind agiain in few hours. BUt if some made already perfect Steele after hours and still made not wise decision by misleading clues ingame that such person may be unhppay at best for been punished for picking supposely vialable path for class. Other classes not have so many chances to mess up build by picking wrong perks as techs.

 

[Couch]

Though, one way to make up for the Tech Spec's lack of energy recovery would be to give them a larger energy pool or to reduce the energy cost of their special abilities.

Or they could just be given energy recovery. Change their shield regen skills to replenish Shields and Energy instead of costing Energy for Shields.

 

[NotYouNorI]

Or they could just be given energy recovery. Change their shield regen skills to replenish Shields and Energy instead of costing Energy for Shields.

But Fen is adamant on not giving them energy recovery.

 

[Couch]

Then Techs are always going to be the worst class. There's no way around this.

 

[Ormael]

Ehh that irony. Only one class that may need to have some better way to recover their space mana actualy will not get it ever cuz of main dev.

I can get that energy is ussed to recharge shield. Same as mage would channel mana to restore mana shield power. But no special usable once afight that would make PC regen energy similary for X turns that is still irony.

 

[balitz Method]

Not only that but the shield-vs-drone specialization is just...not a good idea. The shield perks should be part of the class by default; there's no good reason to take drones over shields but then specializing in shields severely limits their options. Plus their default perks just aren't very useful.

Something like a drone specialist vs. powered underarmor exoskeleton would be a better idea. If the class isn't going to get energy regen then the perks should either center around something likes drones, which don't eat up energy, or a specialization that gives them some beefy all-or-nothing style attacks that would then be balanced by the lack of regen. Right now it's just making the worst class worse for no discernible reason.

 

[Xeivous]

Not only that but the shield-vs-drone specialization is just...not a good idea. The shield perks should be part of the class by default; there's no good reason to take drones over shields but then specializing in shields severely limits their options. Plus their default perks just aren't very useful.

Something like a drone specialist vs. powered underarmor exoskeleton would be a better idea. If the class isn't going to get energy regen then the perks should either center around something likes drones, which don't eat up energy, or a specialization that gives them some beefy all-or-nothing style attacks that would then be balanced by the lack of regen. Right now it's just making the worst class worse for no discernible reason.

Eh' i'd rather do drones as the base thing with the level up perks helping out with that and the pick a perks being split between shields and weapons.

Also energy leach would be cool to have.

 

[Lancer]

Not only that but the shield-vs-drone specialization is just...not a good idea. The shield perks should be part of the class by default; there's no good reason to take drones over shields but then specializing in shields severely limits their options. Plus their default perks just aren't very useful.

Something like a drone specialist vs. powered underarmor exoskeleton would be a better idea. If the class isn't going to get energy regen then the perks should either center around something likes drones, which don't eat up energy, or a specialization that gives them some beefy all-or-nothing style attacks that would then be balanced by the lack of regen. Right now it's just making the worst class worse for no discernible reason.

The idea behind the drone and shield path is that they would both be equally powerful in different ways, but drones ended up horribly underpowered. And the kicker is that Fen thinks drones are fine, so they will likely not be changed for years, if ever.

 

[balitz Method]

And that idea is not at in any sense a good one. Techs -need- those shields because otherwise they're too squishy. That has to be the base for the class, not a specialization.

 

[Lancer]

And that idea is not at in any sense a good one. Techs -need- those shields because otherwise they're too squishy. That has to be the base for the class, not a specialization.

Even without the extra shields from the booster perk, techs still take 50% less damage to their shields than other classes, and have 16 more shield points at lvl 8 due to shield tweaks. They are more squishy than those who picked the booster perk, but they are by no means unplayable. If drones actually offered anything useful, the drone specialization would be just as useful as the shields. But drones are useless, and Fen thinks they should stay that way so

 

[Ormael]

Some can say 16 more shield points or more if taken super shields are much but for class that got lowest hp each shield point is worth much more than for other classes. And drnes been in ok spot by Fen. hh I can't even cringe on this anymore. Really not know what miracle must happen for him to one day think: Wait drones are so shitty now. Let make them great again!

 

[Lancer]

And drnes been in ok spot by Fen. hh I can't even cringe on this anymore. Really not know what miracle must happen for him to one day think: Wait drones are so shitty now. Let make them great again!

In this case it would actually just be "make drones great" as they have never actually been good

 

[Ormael]

@Lancer I gonna repeat myself for X time but in past Savin said how his rginal plan for stats for TamWolf been and with those it was on medicore tier drne not trash-tier as we got it now. I mran I only getting it for sentiment...not like I would have much use of it or other one drone...ok Bimbo Sieg is kind of funny. Maybe someday I will try poke Fen on discord long enough for him to give a GOOD reason drones are so bad atm not just any reason.

EDIT: Making them great again meant to make them how authors of each drone planned them orginaly not in shape their ended up after Fen "adjusting" for them.

 

[Galgano]

What if we replaced the second melee attack level up option with the drone perk again. For drone techs, it buffs their starter drone. For shield techs it gives them the starter drone (and could possibly allow them to repai tam wolf). And since a drone is like a second attack, it gives the player an option: get a second attack coming from you or get a guaranteed second attack from an alternate source. Shield techs would still have a choice because the second drone perk would still give them the +2 shield/level bonus at the cost of some decent damage output. The upgraded drone could occasionally blind or something and a few more damage as an upgrade. Or whatever people would think would make the drone a little more viable

 

[Doombot]

Personaly i think Tech should have 2 paths:
Shield and Weapon - based around gaining shields and burning Energy by spamming power attacks from energy weapons and explosives
Drone Master - Where the drone you get from perks acts like a companion in battle (with its own health bar at the cost of your shields- the better shield belt you have the more bonus hp your drone got but you don't have shields for yourself), later you'd get a perk that would make the drone intercept attacks at you. Combat style would revolve around buffing, healing and supporting your drone while he does the heavy work.
The equipable drones would still work as they do now but separate from your drone (but maybe still benefit from your in combat drone buffs)