Warriors were born to wear heavy armor?

[Alfenjeiser02]

More than class balance I would like to talk about the characters who use heavy equipment I have ironically noticed that the warrior takes the worst part because although the other classes receive the same penalties at least they have their advantages (Leaving aside the Charmer that only works if you wear light armor)

• Warrior: Veteran: When wearing Heavy armor or carrying a shield, you generate 25% more Threat and are immune to Terror. (Personally The Warrior has the worst passivity)

• White magician: Retrieve your Hp if you cure your classmates

• THIEF: more damage if the objective suffers an abnormal state

• Black magician: more critical probability when casting spells.

I like to test strategies and measure myself that is why I always challenge myself to a duel against mini-boses on Dark difficulty, curiously I have won against all kinds of constructions of my characters except with my armored sword-shield Warrior due to his slowness he is rained down blows from all sides and they don't do as much damage as the other classes DEMONS !!! Even my paper mache black magician beat Wraith Chimera 1 vs 1 with the right strategy and equipment.

1. In short, a warrior with heavy head armor is too slow to generate threat and helping your team unless your followers use the Defender command in their first shifts and you attacks or use the mirror posture.
2. While it is true that the shields are useful when your strategy is based on resisting blows when you suffer from Sunders Armor you are sold to the enemy as you are still as slow and you will see a shock rain until you arrive your next shift.
3. In the end, although the other classes are equally slow when carrying heavy equipment, at least they reward their offensive, even the white magician with charge weapon or smite evil ends up doing more damage in the only turns they can attack.

Is there a probability? That in the future at higher levels the Warriors have the possibility of acquiring a passive that ignores the heavy equipment penalties or at least it reduces half if they are concerned that the agility characterist at higher levels end up exceeding the -5 initiative of each piece of armor
This could cope with the offensive capacity that lacks in exchange for having the ability to attack more or normally.

 

[DJ_Arashi_Rora]

I have a warrior as my main, and she is in light armor because the penalties for heavy armor are so bad it isn't worth the small defense increase.

 

[WolframL]

If you're worried about optimization and wearing enough Heavy-tagged gear that you have -22 Initiative, replace some of that gear with other stuff; you don't need to stack Heavy gear to get the advantage of Veteran. My own Lv6 Warrior has -7 due to having two pieces of Heavy armor and the Captain's Greatsword (and a deliberately unoptimized stat distribution for roleplay reasons) and has no trouble generating enough Threat to do her primary job of being the party tank or hitting enemies hard enough when her actions roll around, without having to micromanage the party or use Mirror Stance.

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

If you're worried about optimization and wearing enough Heavy-tagged gear that you have -22 Initiative, replace some of that gear with other stuff; you don't need to stack Heavy gear to get the advantage of Veteran. My own Lv6 Warrior has -7 due to having two pieces of Heavy armor and the Captain's Greatsword (and a deliberately unoptimized stat distribution for roleplay reasons) and has no trouble generating enough Threat to do her primary job of being the party tank or hitting enemies hard enough when her actions roll around, without having to micromanage the party or use Mirror Stance.

Yes, that would be a solution, although basically I already have all my other characters wearing everything light, I just wanted to point out how ironic that a Class designed to carry and trained to use heavy equipment has the same restrictions as regarding an Acolyte who for much of his life has only worn a shower robe.

 

[Shiny Boots]

I use the witch's corset set + a tower shield + sanctified gladius.

As long as I have healer Cait or Healer Ryn I have no problem staying alive and maintaining threat on any difficulty. The other companion doesn't hurt my tanking ability.

I like using unique items. I'd experiment with heavier armor but I haven't come across any unique heavy chest pieces and all the unique shields available at where I am in the game have undesirable side effects.

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

The only reason to play warrior is, unfortunately, just to get early access to some good physical abilities. By the time the turn order gets to the player, the party members will have generated more threat or all of the enemies will have gone already. The only way to use a warrior is to basically play as a thief who hates stealth. But in that case you could just play as a thief. Although armorer and iron will are good perks to have so they got that going for them.

 

[Undecided]

It seems like the most optimal set up for Warriors at the moment (assuming you want all the perks factored in) without occurring negative initiative, would be to equip light armor and wield a shield.
That way Warriors can acquire the Veteran Perk without requiring for heavy armor to be equipped (and by extent without suffering negative initiative). The only downside then being that it requires wielding a shield instead, so two-handed / dual wielding Warriors are effectively negating one of the Warrior Class' built in perks (the level 1 perk).
This is not optimal for Warriors however, due to the fact that missing out on the Veteran Perk then means that their job with threat management is just that much more difficult (and by extent then tanking for the party - which is inferred to be the Warrior's role).

In conclusion, I'm in agreement with a lot of the sentiments expressed in this thread - the trade-off for heavy armor just doesn't feel worth it. You can pretty much reach the armor cap with light armor in any case (as far as I'm aware), so incurring the negative aspects of heavy armor doesn't feel worthwhile.
Additionally, I think that the Warrior Class' Veteran Perk and the Charmer Class' Stylish Perk might benefit from a bit of a rework to not be so conditional. They are the only level 1 perks that do not synergize with the abilities of the class (unlike the level 1 perks for Thieves, Black Mages and White Mages), and are instead gear dependent (which to me makes them feel more punitive / restrictive than the other classes' level 1 perks).

 

[Wint3rRyd3r]

It seems like the most optimal set up for Warriors at the moment (assuming you want all the perks factored in) without occurring negative initiative, would be to equip light armor and wield a shield.
That way Warriors can acquire the Veteran Perk without requiring for heavy armor to be equipped (and by extent without suffering negative initiative). The only downside then being that it requires wielding a shield instead, so two-handed / dual wielding Warriors are effectively negating one of the Warrior Class' built in perks (the level 1 perk).
This is not optimal for Warriors however, due to the fact that missing out on the Veteran Perk then means that their job with threat management is just that much more difficult (and by extent then tanking for the party - which is inferred to be the Warrior's role).

In conclusion, I'm in agreement with a lot of the sentiments expressed in this thread - the trade-off for heavy armor just doesn't feel worth it. You can pretty much reach the armor cap with light armor in any case (as far as I'm aware), so incurring the negative aspects of heavy armor doesn't feel worthwhile.
Additionally, I think that the Warrior Class' Veteran Perk and the Charmer Class' Stylish Perk might benefit from a bit of a rework to not be so conditional. They are the only level 1 perks that do not synergize with the abilities of the class (unlike the level 1 perks for Thieves, Black Mages and White Mages), and are instead gear dependent (which to me makes them feel more punitive / restrictive than the other classes' level 1 perks).

Going off of that, a change I can think of is have half your strength increase either health, resolve, crit chance, or for Veteran to negate or dramatically lessen the initiative penalty. We always need more resolve and we need health to tank. Crit chance idea is just Arcane Strike but with strength so that's not really unique but is better than what we have. And negating the penalty of initiative isn't too broken if no other armor type has that drawback. If it weren't for Veteran as it is, warrior would be a pretty good class. As it stands, we have a couple good perks and can't use them all without penalty. It sucks when the other three level 1 abilities don't have any negative affect, therefore making warrior objectively inferior. Stylish may limit your options, but light armor isn't penalizing like heavy.

Edit to ask: Going through the perk list and Kas has Veteren too. But why? She doesn't even wear armor (thank fuck for that, she'd probably make some min maxed super armor). Unless those nipple rings are just painted gold and are actually some magnetic mega metal. I thought it was just her class in the files giving it to her but she has the black mage perks too.

 

[Undecided]

Spoiler: Pretty lengthy tangent / reply - spoiler to avoid affecting page layout with derailment.

Going off of that, a change I can think of is have half your strength increase either health, resolve, crit chance, or for Veteran to negate or dramatically lessen the initiative penalty. We always need more resolve and we need health to tank. Crit chance idea is just Arcane Strike but with strength so that's not really unique but is better than what we have. And negating the penalty of initiative isn't too broken if no other armor type has that drawback. If it weren't for Veteran as it is, warrior would be a pretty good class. As it stands, we have a couple good perks and can't use them all without penalty. It sucks when the other three level 1 abilities don't have any negative affect, therefore making warrior objectively inferior. Stylish may limit your options, but light armor isn't penalizing like heavy.

Edit to ask: Going through the perk list and Kas has Veteren too. But why? She doesn't even wear armor (thank fuck for that, she'd probably make some min maxed super armor). Unless those nipple rings are just painted gold and are actually some magnetic mega metal. I thought it was just her class in the files giving it to her but she has the black mage perks too.

Hmm, yeah those suggestions sound alright. Although maybe not in-line per se with the initial perk, but maybe that's a good thing (maybe a different avenue would be best, like what you've suggested).
Although I think the initiative stuff needs to be addressed not just for Warriors, because as you say, light armor has no inherent disadvantages as of yet (aside from less armor rating and physical resistance - which may be more prevalent as the game continues), as well as having higher magical defense and warding than heavy armor.

I think that regardless of the Class, PC's should not feel underwhelming when wielding heavy armor - which would then require for heavy armor to not be as punishing for initiative.
Maybe having something along the lines of light armor having less armor rating and physical resistance, but higher magic resistance and warding, so that it's better vs mages. Then have heavy armor (with limited / no initiative penalties) have more armor rating and physical resistance but less magic resistance and warding, so that it's better vs physical damage dealers.
I know that it's already somewhat like this in-game, but maybe exploring this avenue more would make the different armor types feel equal in a sense, and that way it's explicitly balanced as such, with there additionally needing to be an element of counter building in certain situations (which would result in both armor types being viable).

From my perspective though, I think that it would make sense to rework the Veteran perk and the Stylish perk in a manner that would allow for them to synergize with the powers of their respective class, to be consistent with the other classes and their level 1 perks.
So, for the Veteran perk - maybe it could be something like: Each power you physically hit (only applicable to Warrior Class powers) generates 5% additional threat (and hitting multiple enemies causes that to stack - so physically hitting 5 enemies with cleave would be 25% additional threat generated), as well as immunity to Terror - no conditional for gear.
With regards to the Stylish perk - maybe it could be something like: You add half your Presence to powers that are centered around Teasing, as well as adding half your Presence to Spellpower (would only be applicable to Charmer Class spells / powers, not to other classes spells / powers) - no conditional for gear.


But yeah, sorry to go on a tangent with this. I don't mean to derail this thread with this discussion.

 

[Shrike675]

Maybe in the future there could be a skill that deals damage based on a negative or positive initiative stat? The closest thing I could draw parallel to would be certain skills in games like Bravely Default 2 that does more damage the more equipment weight they have.

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

Spoiler: Pretty lengthy tangent / reply - spoiler to avoid affecting page layout with derailment.

So, for the Veteran perk - maybe it could be something like: Each power you physically hit (only applicable to Warrior Class powers) generates 5% additional threat (and hitting multiple enemies causes that to stack - so physically hitting 5 enemies with cleave would be 25% additional threat generated), as well as immunity to Terror - no conditional for gear.
With regards to the Stylish perk - maybe it could be something like: You add half your Presence to powers that are centered around Teasing, as well as adding half your Presence to Spellpower (would only be applicable to Charmer Class spells / powers, not to other classes spells / powers) - no conditional for gear.


But yeah, sorry to go on a tangent with this. I don't mean to derail this thread with this discussion.

General threat is fine although terror is hardly important to me unless you fight with resolution I still think that an ability that ignores the penalties for heavy equipment or at least halves it is still better
Regarding Charmer at the moment he already has a lot of advantage being OP also at least it makes sense that his class has to wear light clothes. If not then how are you supposed to tease your enemy with your cleavage if you are imbued in a steel can and a hidden helmet your beautiful eyes

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

Maybe in the future there could be a skill that deals damage based on a negative or positive initiative stat? The closest thing I could draw parallel to would be certain skills in games like Bravely Default 2 that does more damage the more equipment weight they have.

I was thinking more from the character's initiative mobility but it is also true that he does not have a damage bonus like thieves with Twist The Knife and wizards using a weapon enchantment like Charge Weapon

Anyway ... for now I will have to change and mix different pieces of armor

 

[Shizenhakai]

I think after the release of some more content - and maybe levels - we will get a rebalance of all items.

Though an early passive for the Warrior that reduces the heavy armor penality would be a good idea.
Maybe as the effect for Veteran? I am not too happy about Warriors being locked into tankish roles just because they get higher threat when wearing heavy armour.

 

[Karamaru]

Right now playing as a damage warrior but wearing the royal leathers but yea a talent that relieves some penalties for wearing heavy armor would be nice

 

[Undecided]

Spoiler: Another long tangent / reply - probably best to not subject yourself to reading it.

General threat is fine although terror is hardly important to me unless you fight with resolution I still think that an ability that ignores the penalties for heavy equipment or at least halves it is still better
Regarding Charmer at the moment he already has a lot of advantage being OP also at least it makes sense that his class has to wear light clothes. If not then how are you supposed to tease your enemy with your cleavage if you are imbued in a steel can and a hidden helmet your beautiful eyes

Yeah, I can understand your stance about Terror. The reason why I included it was because it was already included in the Veteran perk to begin with - indicating it was something the dev team were looking to include / attribute to Warriors.

I somewhat disagree with your stance on the heavy equipment front though. Solving it for Warriors doesn't solve the issue as a whole (in my opinion). The other classes would then still have no incentive to pick up heavy armor, and when it comes to an aspect of the game's mechanics (equipment / gear) that doesn't seem to bode well.
Especially if we consider that it would then result in Warriors essentially benefiting from a specific type of gear moreso than the other classes - something that to my knowledge isn't observed anywhere else in the game - and particularly wouldn't make much sense in a CYOA type game (in my opinion). Hence my prior suggestions.

As for Charmers, sure one might say they're OP due to Tease / Resolve damage, but remember - that's just an aspect of their class. They also have support / magical damaging abilities - so negating those and just hyper focusing on the Tease / Resolve damaging aspect then seemingly overlooks the other aspect(s) of Charmers.
If the Stylish perk remains as it is (a conditional boon to Sexiness), then it sort of assumes that Charmers are not intended to be supportive or use their magical damaging powers - and instead just default to a Tease / Resolve damaging class. Hence my prior suggestions.

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

I somewhat disagree with your stance on the heavy equipment front though. Solving it for Warriors doesn't solve the issue as a whole (in my opinion). The other classes would then still have no incentive to pick up heavy armor, and when it comes to an aspect of the game's mechanics (equipment / gear) that doesn't seem to bode well.
Especially if we consider that it would then result in Warriors essentially benefiting from a specific type of gear moreso than the other classes - something that to my knowledge isn't observed anywhere else in the game - and particularly wouldn't make much sense in a CYOA type game (in my opinion). Hence my prior suggestions.
.

1 In all games there has to be a balance between advantages and disadvantages, you close one door and at the same time open another, the HEAVY ARMOR mechanics and initiative was made so as not to be a tank that breaks the speed of sound, I focused a lot on the WARRIOR class because Notice how bad her synergy is passive if not it is also a bit incoherent at the role level

There should be advantages and disadvantages in using certain things or decisions but my point is that it seems that wearing heavy armor would benefit other classes more than the Warriors themselves.

Let's take an example that you want all the classes to have no restrictions and to be able to use heavy equipment ignoring the characteristics and suppose that they all have the same attributes (Agility, Strenght ...)

• Thief: It is true that he will not have as much evasion as when he uses the Kunoichi suits but he will still have an evasion and critical bonus that you normally would not have with a warrior of the same level also having "Twist the Knife"

• White Mage: Maybe he does not have Veteran but he will have "Healer's Hands" this together with any type of healing ability such as "group heal" will make him a beast in the defensive aspect more than even the warrior.

• Black Mage: Now his chance of survival will be higher and he will continue to cast critical spells

• Charmer: I do not have enough experience to talk about this class so I will not give an opinion if it is fair or inappropriate what you propose

The point I want to point out is that it seems playing as Warrior with heavy armor is more inconvenient than it would be to play it with other classes despite the fact that they also suffer from little initiative but at least in those circumstances they will do more damage in the turn to attack

2 Especially if we consider that it would then result in Warriors essentially benefiting from a specific type of gear moreso than the other classes


Mmmm ... It would be loock similar... with Thief with the Kunoichi suit, The magicians "WITCH SUIT" and the Charmer "Elegant Dress", Bondage that the centaur gives you among others, so I could argue that the Witch Suit should be adapted for physical attackers because it is currently only intended for players who use spells.

 

[Undecided]

Spoiler: Another one.

1 In all games there has to be a balance between advantages and disadvantages, you close one door and at the same time open another, the HEAVY ARMOR mechanics and initiative was made so as not to be a tank that breaks the speed of sound, I focused a lot on the WARRIOR class because Notice how bad her synergy is passive if not it is also a bit incoherent at the role level

There should be advantages and disadvantages in using certain things or decisions but my point is that it seems that wearing heavy armor would benefit other classes more than the Warriors themselves.

Let's take an example that you want all the classes to have no restrictions and to be able to use heavy equipment ignoring the characteristics and suppose that they all have the same attributes (Agility, Strenght ...)

• Thief: It is true that he will not have as much evasion as when he uses the Kunoichi suits but he will still have an evasion and critical bonus that you normally would not have with a warrior of the same level also having "Twist the Knife"

• White Mage: Maybe he does not have Veteran but he will have "Healer's Hands" this together with any type of healing ability such as "group heal" will make him a beast in the defensive aspect more than even the warrior.

• Black Mage: Now his chance of survival will be higher and he will continue to cast critical spells

• Charmer: I do not have enough experience to talk about this class so I will not give an opinion if it is fair or inappropriate what you propose

The point I want to point out is that it seems playing as Warrior with heavy armor is more inconvenient than it would be to play it with other classes despite the fact that they also suffer from little initiative but at least in those circumstances they will do more damage in the turn to attack

2 Especially if we consider that it would then result in Warriors essentially benefiting from a specific type of gear moreso than the other classes

View attachment 16630
Mmmm ... It would be loock similar... with Thief with the Kunoichi suit, The magicians "WITCH SUIT" and the Charmer "Elegant Dress", Bondage that the centaur gives you among others, so I could argue that the Witch Suit should be adapted for physical attackers because it is currently only intended for players who use spells.

Hmm, seems we have a bit of a misunderstanding here.

I agree that there having pros and cons is good, but I'd argue the pros and cons should either be equally felt - meaning that then every class should have a gear dependency, or no class should have gear dependency. Where I'm getting this gear dependency from is in it's implied dependency with the Charmers level 1 perk (Stylish) and the Warriors level 1 perk (Veteran).
If we were to make it equal then the Black Mages, Thieves and White Mages level 1 perks would be reworked to imply gear dependency for them too - such as Thieves getting a boon to stealth for light armor being equipped, and Black mages / White Mages getting some increase to either Spellpower / Magical damage (Black Mage) or Healing (White Mage) when wielding light cloth armor, such as Apprentice Robes.
But my premise for not doing that, and instead reworking the heavy armor to be viable for any class, is not to detract from Warriors, it's to make heavy armor (as well as light armor) more viable for certain situations.
If the consistency mentioned above is not going to be implemented, then I think that what I suggested in this post here would potentially suffice, but yeah.

Also, I think it's pretty disingenuous to paint Black Mages, Thieves, White Mages and Charmers as being able to "do more damage in the turn to attack".
Yes Warriors are tanks (that is their implied role), they don't necessarily deal a lot of damage when compared to some of the aforementioned classes, so specifically comparing Warriors for that role (the role of glass cannon / damage dealing) to Black Mages, Charmers (resolve damage) and Thieves is only going to make them look worse. Although I have a hard time believing that base powers White Mages would out-dps a Warrior, but I'll test that.
My point being, if I was to compare a Thief to a Warrior for tanking - even if both of them were equipped with heavy armor, the thief would look pretty bad in comparison, yes? Different classes do different things, but that doesn't mean that they need to explicitly be geared in different armor (unless the consistency is to be implemented).
Armor doesn't have as much variance in combat as different weapons (which directly affect the combat style).

As I said before, all I was trying to get across was that reworking the armor system was one means of going about potentially make all armors more viable for different situations - not advocating for the superiority / inferiority of certain classes. That's up to player's bias, mobs' damage capabilities and damage types.

Lastly... that image...? I don't understand why that's necessary lol. I already stated multiple times that I disagree with both Warriors level 1 perk and the Charmers level 1 perk, but okay. That was the entire premise of my argument, which makes the misunderstanding all the more baffling.

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

I'm sorry but I didn't understand that part. I think you thought about it a lot. I think the unique thing I understood about this block of text is that you want new armors with more varied characteristics.

Well let's try in simple terms in summary I think the easiest solution for what you propose would be that instead of -5 in initiative for each heavy piece it is reduced to -2 for all classes

 

[Undecided]

I'm sorry but I didn't understand that part. I think you thought about it a lot. I think the unique thing I understood about this block of text is that you want new armors with more varied characteristics.

Well let's try in simple terms in summary I think the easiest solution for what you propose would be that instead of -5 in initiative for each heavy piece it is reduced to -2 for all classes

No worries, apologies if I came across as condescending or snarky with the last point in my previous post. I'd like to try to re-iterate my points below if possible (in order of feasibility), so that nobody has to be subjected to reading my prior posts (apologies for how verbose they are - and apologies that it's come to this).

To be as concise as possible; some things that may offer some Quality of Life (in my opinion) in order of feasibility:

• Potentially having initiative just be RNG based, with heavy armor being a non-factor when calculating initiative.
  • If there was to be a necessary punitive measure for heavy armor, then I'd think that negatives to evasion would suffice instead.

• Potentially reworking the Veteran perk and the Stylish perk so that they are not gear dependent, and are instead consistent with the other classes level 1 perks.
  • This would then indicate that any type of armor could be used for any class, due to no longer having "guidelines" within those two perks.

• Potentially emphasizing more pros and cons for the different armor types to be better in certain situations.
  • In line with the above point, having pros and cons for the different armor types then allows for them to be more viable in certain situations (build diversity).

Upon reflection of others' suggestions - there are no doubt easier ways to solve the heavy armor situation, so yeah - apologies for re-iterating my suggestions.
Apologies if I came across as arrogant / forceful of my stance. I didn't intend for it to come across as such, but upon reflection, it certainly might be construed that way.

 

[MeiLan]

Personally, i think that Veteran should negate the effects of heavy armor entirely, or at the very least alleviate it's effect and or provide an advantage for wearing it, sometimes i feel like tanks get the short end of the stick in bossfights and some of the harder fights because they are the last ones to act in a round.
As for the stylish perk i think it works okay now that Sexiness works as attack power instead of just an accuracy bonus.

 

[Paradox01]

Potentially having initiative just be RNG based, with heavy armor being a non-factor when calculating initiative.

Ooh, I disagree. A penalty to initiative for wearing Heavy Armor makes complete sense to me.

If there was to be a necessary punitive measure for heavy armor, then I'd think that negatives to evasion would suffice instead.

I think you're falling into the classic trap of thinking "Evasion" in CoC2 means that an attack completely misses you. All it means in THIS game is that you've avoided being damaged. That's why Shields give Evasion bonuses. "Evasion" is a shorthand used to describe aspects of a piece of armor (chest, leg, shield, etc) that gives a bonus to damage reduction/avoidance based on reasons other than pure "thickness of metal".

 

[Alfenjeiser02]

sometimes i feel like tanks get the short end of the stick in bossfights and some of the harder fights because they are the last ones to act in a round.

That was one of my points, wearing heavy armor is inconvenient in almost all situations or one of two eliminates the initiation disadvantages for the warrior so that he can attack more often or second idea for a negative initiative or for each piece of armor you have X + bonus (Damage or Resistance)

 

[Savin]

FYI we're planning on the following fixes:

1. Changing Warrior's Veteran perk to negate Heavy gear's Initiative penalty. Also changes your immunity from Terror to Stagger.

2. Also (I don't know if it'll be in this patch or a bit later) plan is to make Heavy armor grant added passive Threat. So you start with more Threat for each piece of Heavy gear, and gain a multiplier to your Threat generation for each piece thereafter. That should incentivize tanks to heavy up.

 

[Kizrah]

Changing Warrior's Veteran perk to negate Heavy gear's Initiative penalty. Also changes your immunity from Terror to Stagger.

Nice, I look forward to not going last every turn!

 

[Shizenhakai]

FYI we're planning on the following fixes:

1. Changing Warrior's Veteran perk to negate Heavy gear's Initiative penalty. Also changes your immunity from Terror to Stagger.

2. Also (I don't know if it'll be in this patch or a bit later) plan is to make Heavy armor grant added passive Threat. So you start with more Threat for each piece of Heavy gear, and gain a multiplier to your Threat generation for each piece thereafter. That should incentivize tanks to heavy up.

That sounds great, looking forward to it. =)

 

[Undecided]

Alright well, due to Savin's post, a lot of what I said prior should be disregarded.

Thanks for the post Savin, that helps to clarify things.

Spoiler: Reply to Paradox01

Ooh, I disagree. A penalty to initiative for wearing Heavy Armor makes complete sense to me.

I think you're falling into the classic trap of thinking "Evasion" in CoC2 means that an attack completely misses you. All it means in THIS game is that you've avoided being damaged. That's why Shields give Evasion bonuses. "Evasion" is a shorthand used to describe aspects of a piece of armor (chest, leg, shield, etc) that gives a bonus to damage reduction/avoidance based on reasons other than pure "thickness of metal".

Well, disregarding what Savin posted, that's fair - if the negatives to Initiative made (makes) sense to you then I'm not going to question it.

• The only reason why it personally didn't make sense to me was because comparing this to D&D (5E is the only comparison I can make, because it's the only edition I relatively know anything about), Initiative isn't affected by having Heavy Armor equipped.
  • In D&D 5E, your character would only be susceptible to moving slower if they didn't have the Strength required to equip the Heavy Armor properly, and rolls for Stealth would always be at a disadvantage.
    • Hence, due to that comparison, I felt that the closest comparison for disadvantages to Stealth from D&D 5E would be disadvantages to Evasion in CoC2.

With regards to your second point, you are correct.

• I definitely did overlook that (Evasion) and take the term a bit too literal in a sense. I understand now that this was incorrect as a quick search detailed.
• As indicated prior, working under the assumption that Evasion was largely based around "agility" in a sense, was where my confusion became apparent.
  • Me assuming that Evasion wasn't such a general case, and was more akin to something like "agility" led me to believe that it would logically make sense for that (Evasion) to be punished moreso than turn order (Initiative) - additionally, my comparison to D&D 5E only furthered that line of thinking.

I've realized however, that comparisons to other games is a bit disingenuous, even if there is a lot of similarity between the games - as in this case, the result was more confusion than necessary.

That leads me to my last statement, I'll just mention it here if that's okay - it's not really relevant to my reply to Paradox01, but yeah.

• I think I jumped the gun a bit with the Armor rework suggestion. I apologize for that.
  • It was kind of an out there suggestion, and most likely would not have resulted in as much viability between different Armor types as I would have imagined.
    • Even if it did result in more viability / build diversity, it would have come with the detriment of different Armor Classifications - so in essence, not a worthwhile trade-off in any case.

So, yeah, that's it. I now definitively understand the error of some of my suggestions (upon re-reading prior posts in this thread, as well as external research).
Apologies for any inconvenience I've caused. Also, apologies to the OP of this thread for all the (no doubt) irritation I've caused.